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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:36 PM
Original message
Trusting Obama
does not mean automatically trusting everyone around him. Obama had the Washington Times traveling on his plane as part of the Press for two years up to Nov. 1:

The Washington Times, which has had a reporter traveling with Sen. Barack Obama's campaign for nearly two years, was kicked off the candidate's press plane on Friday.

"The decision came just three days after the editorial page endorsed John McCain," Times Executive Editor John Solomon said. "I hope a candidate who says he wants to unite the country isn't using a litmus test for who can cover him."

The Obama operation also ejected reporters for the New York Post and Dallas Morning News, which have recently endorsed McCain. Room was suddenly made for black-oriented magazines that have not been constant fixtures on the plane: Essence, Ebony and Jet.

Obama adviser Anita Dunn said that the issue is one of limited space and that "anyone who suggests a linkage with editorial endorsements is just plain wrong." Dunn noted that "two of our largest editorial critics are ensconced on that plane, Fox News and the Wall Street Journal." Obama's hometown papers, the Chicago Tribune and Chicago Sun-Times, each received an additional seat. Dunn said that adding a second plane, a common practice in past campaigns, would slow things down and hamper the candidate's ambitious schedule.

link


People have absurdly likened the WT to Free Republic. So is it fair to say that because Obama kept the WT close, gave them legitimacy, they should be trusted?









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GarbagemanLB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. I think you are going to have a tough time letting go of the Hillary Hate. It is an addiction.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Is that it?
Hate is fueling this? Thanks for the tip. I was wondering WTF?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. What does this have to do with Hillary? She isn't even mentioned in the post.
There is Rahm Emanuel, Bob Gates, Larry Summers and a number of other people whose selection have been criticized.

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. What utter and complete bullshit...
If you trust Obama, then you have to trust his choices, otherwise, you don't trust Obama.

How does it feel to hate so fully and completely that it consumes your every waking moment? They have medicine for that these days you know.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. No, it's ludicrous to believe that people have to be trusted because they were selected.
See Dick Morris.

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Then you don't trust Obama
Because you don't trust his choices.

You can't have it both ways.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Hey!
I don't trust Obama? What is there to trust?

Just because he won a campaign I didn't think he had a chance at, and did so with a style and grace I have never seen before, and he practically promised to save the world. (and that's gonna be damn near impossible).

So why should I have any trust?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. No one ever said you should or must have trust...
I'm saying what the OP said is bullshit... you can't say you trust someone then say you don't trust his choices. Either you trust him, or you don't. No one is forcing trust on anyone else. I'm just saying you have to decide, one way or the other.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #13
27. It was satire
Bad satire, granted.

I agree with you. Who wouldn't? If you trust someone, you trust them, and you don't go around nagging them every move they make. Yeah, yell: " watch out! there's a fire here", but back from that, let the object of your attention carry on as they see fit.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #27
37. Sorry, I guess I'm a bit edgy... too edgy to get you:)
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 05:42 PM by Juniperx
You get it. :)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. This isn't about having it both ways.
Obama is going to be working with McCain, should I trust McCain?

Obama has to put together an administration and reach out to people across the aisle, doesn't mean I have to trust them.

Obama secured the Homeland Security Chair for Lieberman, doesn't mean I have to trust Lieberman.

Trusting Obama has nothing to do trusting people he goes to bat for.





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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Go suck an egg
Your brain is obviously starving.

Then go back and actually read what you wrote, and what I replied.

:eyes:

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Intelligent. n/t
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes, I am
Deal.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. I meant
the egg.

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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. That's a pretty lame comeback. nt
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Kalyke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
53. Better than her whipping out her Mensa card again.
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 08:46 PM by Kalyke
That was pure class.... NOT.

It's very annoying that someone in Mensa would ask others to blindly trust Obama and fail to question his choices or be called anti-Obama. That's like saying, "You're either with us or against us." Not a good precedent.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Calling someone out...
And taking things to another thread lacks class... since you are so concerned about such things.

And twisting my words to boot. You lose.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. Claiming Mensa membership is a mark of insecurity, IMO.
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 10:42 PM by Occam Bandage
That goes double if you actually pay money to hang around a group of people who also pay money to be told they're smart. As for bringing it up in conversation to make yourself seem smart? Well, a good storyteller always knows to show, not tell.

But that's all beside the point, and has very little to do with the conversation at hand.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I just found you lacking in protein and blood sugar...
I was trying to be helpful.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. OK, Dr. Frist. n/t
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laugle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-27-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
66. Enough already..........
If Barack doesn't trust his own cabinet picks, then were all in trouble.

Your posts are getting BIZZAROLAND....

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
19. Exactly. Not to mention, Obama doesn't have 24/7 control over the brains
of the people in his administration.

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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. The Washington Times was never a part of Obama's team
You can't make the comparison against Obama's actual advisers and cabinet members.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. The comparison is appropriate, and proves that Obama and anyone he nominates aren't one in the same
Ask John Brennan, who withdrew from consideration because questions were raised.




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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Obama never nominated the WT
and never relied on them for advice. It says nothing about Obama's judgment.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Did Obama have John Brennan on his one of his short list?
Did people object?

Did Brennan withdraw his name?

Most of Obama's selection are going to be made despite protest, but the notion that people should trust every candidate he's considering is ludicrous. Why would there need to be vetting and then confirmation hearings if this was simply about trusting Obama?

Trust me, if anything is missed in the vetting process that cannot be defended, it's possible that person will not make it through confirmation.

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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
29. Obama is vetting the people for himself
If his initial judgment is wrong, he will change his mind. It just confirms my trust in Obama
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. "If his initial judgment is wrong, he will change his mind."
You can't have it both ways. People protest for a reason.

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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Yes you can
The reason Obama has been a very effective politician because he has always been questioning his own judgment and isn't afraid to change his mind when he is wrong. He surrounds himself with smart people who provide a diverse range of opinions, so he can see all sides of an issue.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Obama has been very effective because he also listens to people
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 05:50 PM by ProSense
and never discourages people from expressing their opinions. Still, none of this explains why people aren't free to criticize any of his nominees or why doing so equates to not trusting Obama. I trust Obama to do the right thing. That doesn't mean I will agree with everything does, and it certainly doesn't mean I don't trust him. There are legal scholars who would argue that the Bush administration should be prosecuted. Obama may not agree with that. If he doesn't, then obviously I don't agree with him, but that doesn't mean I don't trust him.

Trust isn't measured by how often people agree with each other.




edited word.
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Why else are you criticizing his nominees?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. There are other people on the planet...
So I don't have to trust everyone Obama shares a planet with...

:eyes:

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
51. Are you suggesting Obama brought them into this world? n/t
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 08:09 PM by ProSense
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. No, and he didn't choose who would be the media either... eom
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Did he choose who was on his plane? n/t
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Sad it had to be spelled out...
But I guess you had to do it. Thanks for doing it so calmly... this bs is working on my last nerve.

I'm amazed. Simply amazed.
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AndrewP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
9. Wow. An administation trying to control their message. How shocking.
:sarcasm:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
16. Why trust politicians in the first place?
It's one thing to support a politician. It's quite another to place your trust in one.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
22. So...letting reporters on your plane for a while...
is just like appointing someone...to secretary of state...and administration officials should be treated...like newspapers...and...

Nope, can't follow it. Even with my OMG HATE HILLARY dial turned up to 11.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. There is nothing in the OP that indicates that the two are the same.
It's about Obama's actions impacting people's opinions. Since Obama allowed the WT on his plane for two years as members of the press, does that mean they're not like Free Republic and should be treated as legitimate members of the press?



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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I think it means that Obama considers their news desk one of the Nth most influential
in the country, with N being the number of reporters they have seats for. Obama is not a media watchdog organization; it was not his duty to declare legitimacy or illegitimacy, or to declare the degree to which a newspaper was trustworthy. Giving a journalist credentials is not the same as giving everything his organization publishes credibility.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. "Giving a journalist credentials is not the same as giving everything..."
Does it mean giving some of the things they publish credibility? Or, was "Free Republic" in print given credentials?





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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I don't know why you're bringing credibility into this.
Credentials are given to journalists with influence (leaving the concepts of reward and punishment aside for simplicity of discussion). Often credibility and influence go hand-in-hand--the NYT has both, and FR has neither--but they are not the same thing.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. credibility is in your previous response.
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 05:48 PM by ProSense
Often credibility and influence go hand-in-hand--the NYT has both, and FR has neither--but they are not the same thing.


So you're saying that the Washington Times has credibility and/or influence? So they're not Free Republic?



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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #40
46. Because you brought up newspapers and trustworthiness, when
the decision was in fact not made with trustworthiness/credibility in mind (as opposed to cabinet picks, which reflect upon the credibility of the administration). The Washington Times does have a small amount of influence, though not much; I wasn't surprised to see them cut. Asking if they have credibility would be like asking if their editor wears red ties; it's not relevant.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. "does have a small amount of influence, though not much; I wasn't surprised to see them cut."
They were cut Nov. 1, and two years on Obama's plane seems to indicate more than a small amount of influence.



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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Error 32: reply does not contradict statement. nt
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Median Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
25. How Can You Trust A Man Who Doesn't Love A Dog Named Cha Cha?
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moriah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
31. You are really reaching here, you know that, right?
Trusting Obama means trusting his decisions -- not necessarily trusting the people who he has decided to associate with, but trusting in his judgment.

Therefore, the analogy you are making is not viable.

A better question would be: "So, is it fair to say that because Obama kept the WT close that he should be trusted to decide just how close he wants the WT?"

-------

Hey Mods, can we have a thread limit again? Puh-leeeeeze?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. "Trusting Obama means trusting his decisions -- not necessarily trusting the people..."
Really? That's new to me, "reaching" and all.





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moriah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Yes, I suppose rational thought is pretty new to you.
I don't think anyone on here has said you have to trust Hillary because Barack trusts her.

We don't know what he does feel about her. There has been no firm offer or official announcement, so he hasn't even demonstrated that he trusts her in such a crucial role.

When I say I trust Obama's decisions in this, I mean exactly that. Whatever he decides, I trust that he will have good reasons for that decision. Even if he were to pick her for Secretary of State, that good reason may be very different than some might believe (as some have speculated, it might be a way to get her out of the Senate).

The analogy in your post, therefore, was extremely flawed.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Wow!
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 06:04 PM by ProSense
I don't think anyone on here has said you have to trust Hillary because Barack trusts her.

We don't know what he does feel about her. There has been no firm offer or official announcement, so he hasn't even demonstrated that he trusts her in such a crucial role.


Really, no one?

Nice point in bold, I actually agree with that.





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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. "Hey Mods, can we have a thread limit again? Puh-leeeeeze?"...SECONDED!!!!
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 05:51 PM by mtnsnake
Amen to that!!!!!

PLEASE post this as a thread or do a poll on it. Anything!!
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
47. Thirded.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
64. Consider this a fourth vote.
Does anyone else remember who inspired the thread limit we used to have?
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
39. In a way, I was kind of hoping Hillary would refuse the SOS offer
because she just doesn't need this kind of aggrevation, nor does Obama, but now it'll be fun watching you come apart at the seams if she accepts the position. lol
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
50. I wonder how many people trusted Hillary in the primary?
Edited on Wed Nov-26-08 07:08 PM by ProSense
Did that trust extend to the person she chose as her Chief Campaign Strategist, Mark Penn?

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Anyone? n/t
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Lilith Velkor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Perhaps you should make it an OP.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. In post 4 you say this has nothing to do with Hillary, now you raise her name in reponse to your OP?
You really don't think you're fooling anyone, do you? It's all about Hillary and you're hatred for her, you have left a trail of threads and posts that leave no doubt. Why the pretense?

But this thread is interesting. You seem to be arguing that Obama can't be trusted to surround himself with the right people to see his vision, his agenda, through. Yeah, it seems you are ready to throw Obama under the bus in order to get to Hillary. Now take a deep breath and think about it. Maybe you could use a break?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Did I say in post 4 that this question has nothing to do with Hillary?
Are you going to answer the question or continue presenting flawed logic?

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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Looks like it.
I'll just leave your "flawed logic" comment alone. Too easy.
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RetroLounge Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
63. Pssst.
Get over it.

RL
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. Get over what? n/t
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