The Second Great Depression started tonight

Brought to America by the same traitorous pigs that brought the first one. The DAMNED Republican party!

3 million middle class jobs just went up in smoke on the floor of the Senate because the republican party hates working men and women so much they would destroy the entire country to deny them a middle class life! Add those unemployed to the 2 million who had already lost their jobs in this Republican Capitalist pig paradise.

5 MILLION workers thrown out in the streets in one year! The death of the American middle class is at hand.

We were standing on the edge of the abyss folks. Bush and his party just kicked us over the edge.

It will be a worldwide bloodbath on stock markets tomorrow I bet. I think it will take a good 10 years to repair even half the damage done to this country by the republican party in the last eight.

God help President Obama, I sure as hell wouldn't want his job.

Now the workers who listen to Rush Limbaugh and all the other haters will learn a harsh lesson about their friends on the right.

The republicans just murdered their future and condemned their children to a hardscrabble, grey and worrisome life.

Driving foreign cars and supporting free trade ... I'd say about 50 percent of Democrats have great disdain for American labor.

I really really hope you lose your job. And that you are forced to live in that car.
Thank you killing American Labor.

If most American cars are sold at a loss, how does selling more of them make the problem any better?

Is the answer "volume?"

Bad wishes have a way of biting your arse.

Why do you see so many foreign autos on the road?

Because for three years Americans were wanting better mileage and all the execs of American auto companies heard was "bigger SUV's, more hummers!"

Get your head out of your fucking ass and look where the blame really falls - the dipshits running the companies. The unions aren't calling the shots at the development table. The American consumer isn't, either. But that's where the problem lies.

I would buy American if they weren't crap quality. Our first car was American and it was in the shop all of the time either breaking down or having recalls that required us bring it in to get it fixed. Never again. I'll stick with my VW.

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All chevys.

Then my pickup's ABS system failed and caused an accident. The dealer said it had never happened before, I was the only one it ever happened to.

Go google it if you want. There were a zillion accidents, lives lost, and GM stonewalled and pretended it wasn't so. Might have worked before the internet, not anymore.

I didn't sue them but I bought a Toyota and I am done with them. It felt so great to buy American my whole life. I looked down on people who bought imports and felt that they were unpatriotic.

Right up until my kids life was on the line. I don't feel that way any more. You are not the judge of others, you don't know what they've been through, and neither am I. I support American made in my work, more than anyone you will probably ever meet, helping keep people working all over the country. But I drive a Toyota and I'll never buy another GM car for the rest of my life.

back in the 70s, their inadequately protected gas tanks blew up on impact. Many, many young people who bought Ford pintos because they were low cost died horrible, horrible tragic, agonizing deaths, trapped in those infernos and burned alive.

Management knew and hid it as long as possible. Paid off lawsuits with nondisclosures. The kids that died were just statistics to them. It was cheaper to buy off their families than stop the totally preventable slaughter.

Yes, that was then; this was now. But don't blame Americans who were screwed over by American auto companies for years for buying foreign cars. Better engineering, better mileage, lower maintenance costs...

Not the fault of the American workers...the fault of management who has spent tens and hundreds of billions of dollars -- $50B in the last year alone -- lobbying congress to get around regulations instead of investing those billions in the company to produce what is wanted and needed.

ago is ridiculous. :eyes:

America. I AM supporting American workers!

I love my Prius and I'm glad I have it. You have an opinion about my car? What. Evas.

And by doing so, don't forget there is something called Karma.

They consistently prolong lawsuits where they are guilty of negligence at the expense of the victims. Many have died awaiting compensation because Ford decided to save money, and then they wait for the 'biological solution' to their problems. As I write this a friend of my father is still fighting them because his Explorer caught on fire one night in the garage a few years back and burned his house down. It was faulty wiring but Ford denies this. The guy lost everything but his life. Others were not so lucky.

I would never buy one of their rolling death traps, nor would I recommend it. To buy Ford is to support this inexcusable behavior.

I would buy one in a nanosecond.

...knowing you support a company that shits on its victims and can't take responsibility for its substandard products. My father's friend, who now lives in a trailer, thinks otherwise.

But hey, at least you are a patriot!

Toyota and Honda all have plants here in the states, so if you buy a Toyota or Honda, here, that money stays here. When you buy a car HERE, it is most likely built here. The people who work at those plants, are American labor..

and I drive a Pontiac.

The profits from the car sales go to Japan.

They make autos here, most of the profits goes right back into their US based plants.

"The Profits" go to the Parent Company and the "Shareholders".
Only the relative low wages paid to the workforce stay in the local area.

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Maybe we still make a few cars here but check your shoes, pants, tools, refregs, washing machines, toilets, bicycles, toys, on and on. All made outside of the US. Free trade *ucked the pouch years ago. Bob

Because American cars are CRAP. This is why they US car manufacturers are in such deep shit.

US car manufacturers reaction to global warming was to arogantly start making bigger SUVs and Pickups. They are absolutely incompetent and they made their own beds.

All the "experts" were WRONG!

But the rich got richer of course and a whole generation will pay the price for their Reagan/Bush voodoo economic lies.

Clinton signed NAFTA, afterall

For some reason, you union guys get offended when we tell you you're making crap when you make American cars. You shouldn't take offense at this. You should agree. Why do you take responsibility for the design and marketing mistakes of your bosses?

You believe you have to stand with your idiot bosses who were the ones responsible for wrecking a great American industry. You shouldn't stand with them. You should stand against them. Heck, if you had the courage, you should have gone up against them in walkouts, organizations, and goon-busting riots.

I do believe some union people here on DU were supporting the bailout if it were done responsibly - especially the sensible idea of putting a union member on the board of directors of the companies. That would be tacit recognition that everybody - management as well as labor - had a stake in the success of the industry. Well, that idea went out the window, didn't it?

You union guys should recognize your two enemies: management and Republicans. And you should take very physical as well as emotional measures against them. Or do you give a damn any more?

Enjoy your tax increase. Enjoy the unemployment lines.
Enjoy the mass suffering that's about to begin in the rust belt.
Give your Honda a big hug and kiss.

You didn't read what I said, did you? Well, here's some advice.

You want a union again? Do it the way the old union organizers did. Occupy factories. Beat off goons. Stand up physically and martially for those rights you say you want. Or is that too much work for you?

It took a handful of workers occupying a small plant a little courage to get the notice of the media and Obama, and to get what they deserved. The UAW should have taken notice. I don't think they are smart enough to take notice.

other than ruining unions. American workers don't fit into their equations, I guess.

"We can't pick winners and losers"... "We have to let the market decide". Is anyone else sick and tired of the republicans repeating the same dumbed-down rhetoric taught in a highschool economics course? When will they put ideology aside and work on behalf of the American people? When will they realize that now is not the time to play games, especially during a financial crisis?

It was going to happen regardless of whether we bailed out the automakers or not. I fully support the unions and every attempt to help them, including 'bailing them out' but the problem is much deeper.

Think about the timing of it all.. Look at the amount of money some of those CEO's have dumped into the "Republic" Party this year alone.

The timing is too suspicious. It's a UNION BUSTING ploy.

People aren't going to stop driving, and those that do? Get stock in bicycles, buses, etc.

Companies that have a tradition of screwing over their workers and customers, however, don't look so good right now.

After a hundred years of gaming workers and consumers, they seem to have failed.

Which sucks for those who work there.

We could keep bailing them out for another hundred years, but, well..... they'd still suck.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=ah.tzVZ2cTWA&refer=japan

Toyota Scrubs U.S. Dealer Meeting as Slump Triggers Cost Cuts

By Alan Ohnsman

Dec. 12 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., poised for its first U.S. sales decline in 13 years, canceled its 2009 annual dealer meeting in Las Vegas to trim expenses as consumer demand for new cars plummets.

Shifting to smaller, regional briefings instead of one large gathering may save ``about $1 million'' in travel and other costs, said Mike Michels, a spokesman for the Toyota City, Japan-based automaker. Previous forums featured new models and speakers such as former President George H.W. Bush and retired broadcaster Walter Cronkite.

``We're not immune to market conditions,'' Michels said yesterday in an interview. ``When the economy and sales justify it, we will return to a more traditional meeting.''

Scrapping the meeting shows the drain on Toyota from a U.S. market in which autos sold last month at the lowest rate in 26 years. U.S. sales are down 13 percent this year for Japan's largest automaker, which is paring North American output plans.


http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEdge/idUSTRE4BA4N720081211

Toyota, Honda; down, but not out
Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43am EST


By Chang-Ran Kim, Asia autos correspondent

TOKYO (Reuters) - Japanese auto stocks have been pummeled this year by a sharp global slide in car demand as consumers either put off buying big-ticket items or face tighter credit due to the financial crisis.

Toyota Motor Corp (7203.T: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz), Honda Motor Co (7267.T: Quote, Profile, Research, Stock Buzz) and other Japanese exporters are also suffering from a stronger yen, which hit 13-year highs in October.

Uncertainty over when the world's economy, and car demand, will recover has been compounded by an even bigger question mark over the fate of the top three U.S. car makers, although a tentative deal to tide them over until 2009 may have been reached.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20081211.RTOYOTA11/TPStory/Business


MANUFACTURING: FALLING SALES
Toyota gears down production
Ontario plants in Woodstock and Cambridge to shut for a week next month

GREG KEENAN

AUTO INDUSTRY REPORTER

December 11, 2008

The newest auto assembly plant in Canada, whose official opening was celebrated just last week, will shut down during the first week of January as Toyota Motor Corp. throttles back production amid a massive, industry-wide drop in North American vehicle output in the first quarter of 2009.

Toyota's Woodstock, Ont., plant opened with a visit from Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, the company's chief executive officer Katsuaki Watanabe and a robot playing O Canada on a trumpet. But Toyota will shut that factory, its other Canadian plant in Cambridge, Ont., and plants in Kentucky and California as well as one of its assembly lines at a factory in Indiana.

"It certainly appears that this thing is going to last for a while," said Mike Goss, a spokesman for Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing North America. Toyota's U.S. sales plunged 32 per cent in November - similar results to most other companies - even though the auto maker was offering interest-free loans.

However, their stocks are cheaper, because sector-wide buyers are dumping based on sector, rather than individual companies.

Buying in auto sector right now is not a 3-month buy, it's a 3-year (or more) buy.

Simple questions:
Will there be an increase in hybrid/electric car sales, and fuel-efficient car sales, in the next three years? What companies can deliver on those market demands, if they happen?

The other car companies are performing poorly as well ...

Toyota sales are down too ...

If the Big 3 go down, you can bet there will be LESS viable, credit worthy buyers in the marketplace to buy cars from Toyota, Kia and Hyundai .... Much less ....

EDIT: Look what I just found ...

In Tokyo, shares of Honda Motor Co. plunged 13.1% and Toyota Motor Corp. slumped 10.6%. Hyundai Motor Co. gave up 5.7% and Kia Motors Corp. lost 4.1% in Seoul. The automakers get a large part of their sales from the U.S, where Toyota is the second-largest seller, behind only GM.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Stocks-extend-losses-auto-bailout/story.aspx?guid={13BB9E7F-754B-4248-9D02-B762BE521DFF}

Good thing you jumped out there are bought these winners, eh ?

Kudlow ? ... Is that you ?

And most major suppliers supply to American AND Asian automakers. The suppliers can't lose a major part of their business and still survive. This will be chaotic for Asian automakers if they have to try and find someone to make parts to build their cars with.
I work for an automotive supplier, at least for the moment. I don't expect it to last much longer. May the senate republicans burn in hell for what they have done to this country.

"We now have the opportunitaaay to fuck over the majority of the american public"

...and they are so concerned about fiscal responsiblity except when it comes to defense spending and fighting unnecessary wars!

These people have done so much more damage to our economy than OBL and Al-Quida could ever in their wildest dreams imagine doing!

The Republicans are economic TERRORISTS! Ossama ain't got NOTHIN on George W Bush!

The elites will become so scared of some kind of populist socialist revolution that they will allow Obama to be as progressive as he needs to be.

During the Great Depression, people had the example of the Soviet Union (which, at the time, didn't look all that bad compared to the Dust Bowl) to make socialism seem good. Now, socialism is a completely discredited notion for most Americans. You'll be far more likely to get anarchy, and possible secession and civil war, if there is another depression. The end result is far more likely to be a whole series of American "-stan"s and/or ex-Soviet satellites like Belarus, Ukraine, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan, each led by their own petty tyrant, scrabbling with each other for a paltry upper hand. :-(

with the election of a man determined to turn the country into a dystopia of unrestrained capitalism. You can't harvest a depression without the growing season of greed.

But yeah. Tonight Bush guaranteed his spot as the one president worse than James Buchanan. The Republicans are probably doomed for a generation or two at least, but that's cold comfort.

You almost have to wonder if the GOP is deliberately trying to fuck things up as badly as they can in the last days before Obama takes office. It's hard to believe anyone would be so stupid as to believe these actions will benefit the country.

Makes the whole "w" of the keyboards myth look silly now, doesn't it? Even if the tall tales of the Clinton Administration vandalizing the White House had all been true, they would have been nothing compared to the act of vandalizing the entire nation before you go.

fucking mess! I don't know how Bush and the rest of those thugs can sleep at night. They are heartless pricks.

that capitalist union busting rat bastard.

Nobody cares about those dirty hard labor factory jobs, white collar college degree jobs, unskilled service jobs, etc, send them to Mexico, China or India. Let business regulate themselves, they will do whats right. The free market is always right. Tax the middle class, not the rich. Fight two wars and maintain our worldwide military empire at the same time, guns AND butter!

All republican LIES!

How could we have been so foolish.......

and Christianity. When facism comes to America....

My fear is that they deliberately put us into a depression that will last at least four years, in the hope that, when 2012 rolls around, people won't remember that the Republicans caused this depression, only that Obama wasn't able to fix it fast enough, and turn back to the Republicans and their "magic of the Free Market." Can't you just hear Romney or whoever intone "are you better off than you were four years ago?" For, indeed, it is likely that the standard of living of the average American in November 2012 will be worse than what it was in November 2008. :-(

If the democrats in congress act this spineless when Obama takes office he's doomed them for 4 years.

Remember Nixon and how much America hated him...4 years later Ronald Reagan was President.

Wat?

1968 Election - Nixon
1972 Election - Nixon - Ford serves out term when Nixon resigns
1976 Election - Carter
1980 Election - Reagan

How many times of the Republicans kicking the Dems in the behind will it take for the Dems to get angry, stand their ground and fight back?

This very vote should teach the Democratic party never to trust the Republicans and bring them into our fold. Don't the Dems realize that the Republicans only use bipartisanship to get us in a subjugating position?

The republicans have purposely DESTROYED 3 million middle class jobs out of pure unadulterated class HATRED of working people in this country!

Shit the whole state of Michigan will go belly up if nothing is done. Maybe others as well. They mean to destroy organized labor once and for all, the public be damned!

LBJ or Kennedy would not have permitted this shit.

they don't CARE, and want to own the world: Its that simple. Read Confessions of an Economic Hitman.

You are to blame.

I'm so worried about our economic future I can barely find words to express my deep concern. I fear we have been set up for a catastrophe.

because union busting is the whole point of this

The US citizen bought the $73 lie perpetrated by the Republicans in cahoots with the MSM, lock, stock and barrel.

or the plausible threat of them. All wages. You do realize they don't have to pay anyone shit except minimum wage in most states. If you don't like it the options are lump it or leave it. Nothing but "The Invisible Hand" will protect anyone not under a good contract, in fact that is the case this very moment. Our "Invisibble Hand" will see much more latitude.

Servitude, a blood bath, or both are extremely likely. The alternatives come up pretty rarely. Pray, cross your fingers, sneer at superstitions and wonder, or what ever this is a good a time to do what you do or start as any.

I expect the Dow to drop 500.

Unless they reopen the proposal/vote today, I forsee a 700+ drop

Ho Ho Ho

so the markets are jnow turning around.

Read that there's maybe $15B left of the original-which didn't go for loosening credit, but instead for dividends, compensation and naming stadiums, and Paulson wouldn't use what's left because it's needed elsewhere. Turning desperation spending again.

Just shows how difficult it is to forecast the market.

and the TARP money discussions probably saved the day

I was thinking it could be a 600 or 700 down day. But then if I was right about these things I would be posting from a beach.

actually started in 2001, when our economy cratered and GW Hoover didn't lift a finger to try to mitigate the recession, which then turned into a Depression. The bursting of the real estate bubble simply made the Depression apparent to most people. Anyone who's tried to find a job in the last few years knows that we've been in a Depression; businesses are extremely picky about hiring as we have way too many people competing for far too few jobs due to compaines cratering and offshoring/inshoring.

No President has ever come close to causing the Destruction this current President has caused.

Bush and his anti-American republican party have done. And we worry about foreign terrorists while the home-grown republican economic terrorists are killing us daily!

Unlike financials some of which failed literally overnight, the auto industry collapse is happening in slow motion. Even Chapter 11 isn't the end of the road. I believe at least two of the Big 3 are going to make it.

"More significantly, the unemployment rate does not include those too discouraged to look for work any longer or those working fewer hours than they would like. Add those people to the roster of the unemployed, and the rate hit a record 12.5 percent in November, up 1.5 percentage points since September."
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/12/06/unemployment-record/


"In economics, a depression is a sustained, long downturn in one or more economies. It is more severe than a recession, which is seen as a normal downturn in the business cycle. Considered a rare but extreme form of recession, a depression is characterized by abnormal increases in unemployment, restriction of credit, shrinking output and investment, numerous bankruptcies, reduced amounts of trade and commerce, as well as highly volatile relative currency value fluctuations, mostly devaluations. Price deflation or hyperinflation are also common elements of a depression."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(economics)

thanks, gop!
:mad:

In other words, a monumental clusterfuck by Congress that served to make the depressions far worse...

:hi: