As an atheist, I'm offended that there even *IS* an invocation or benediction....

Someday, before I'm worm-food, I hope that all the religious bullshit that we put up with in our secular government goes the way of do-do bird.

I want the secular government that people like Thomas Jefferson wanted. I don't want prayers on the floor of the senate or house... or at our swearing-in ceremonies.

I don't want my President swearing on a 3000-year-old book of mythology either.

I want my President putting his hand on a copy of the Constitution.

I want my kids learning to recite and memorize the preamble to the Constitution and not the Pledge of Allegiance. My allegiance is to an idea, embodied in the Consititution, not to a colorful rag.


I'm not going to get what I want.


For you GLBT DUers.... I'm sorry about Prop8. You deserve the same right to marriage as anyone.


But the election of Obama moves the needle closer to the GLBT side than it has been in 8 years. It also moves the needle closer to the atheist side than it has been in 8 years.

So I'm going to continue to be thrilled at what the American people accomplished a month and a half ago.

...and I'm going to save my outrage for my enemies, and not for Obama.

I look forward to the day when religious expressions are no longer considered acceptable at a public ceremony.

:hi:

Religion shouldn't be anywhere near a LEGAL ceremony like this. Period.

Because most states allow a minister or rabbi or emam to sign an official state document of matrimony.

:shrug:

Then let the religions do their own marriage ceremonies.

Though you don't have to be an atheist to agree with your post. Just someone who believes in the Constitution.

Sometimes I wish Christians would get back to their wars on each other, not on the rest of us.

Separation of Church and State.

How hard is that to understand?

I won't force you to pray or not pray, and you won't force me either... sound good?

The government is secular.

You pray wherever the hell you want to.... but not when the government is involved.


At the swearing in of our SECULAR leader, don't force your mythology on the rest of us.

Can I say "God Bless America"?

Come on... even though you believe in a 2000-year-old mythology, you're not too stupid to understand the basic point:

Private citizens: Pray all you want to whatever invisible creature you want

Government: No officially-led prayers. No using taxpayer money on anything religious. Anything.



You can keep setting up your straw men over and over again, and I'll keep knocking them down.


Not a single post by me said ANYTHING at all about an individual not being able to pray to their heart's content. Didn't even imply it.


You want to talk to yourself inside your head, be my guest. You want to do it out loud, that's fine too (unless you're in the library). But don't use my tax dollars to subsidize your superstitions.


Fair enough?

Clear enough?

...to collect his thoughts...
...to pray...
...to gain composure...

I don't think it's appropriate to bill him for "thought crime", even if our tax dollars paid for it by the minute.

Even if he said something, and was billed for "thought crime", I don't think it's right.

Oh, and FWIW, I don't just "believe in a 2000-year-old mythology", I'm an omnitheist. Zeus is just as valid to me as Russel's teapot, Yahweh, and Spinoza's idea of god.

... and therefore, could not be construed as an official recognition by the US government of a sanctioning of a particular religious belief.


But when Obama (and any other politician) ends his speech with "...and God Bless America", I reserve the right to dream of the day when politicians won't feel it necessary to placate the superstitious.

That should do it, right? :evilgrin:

Wishing away the ability of humans to be superstitious is like wishing away scorpions being poisonous.

to the word, "superstition," is very human as well.

Carry on with your defense of Obama's decision to pray at his own inaugural since he is, in fact, a Christian. I was enjoying it. :)

I'm not talking about what HUMANS do... I'm talking about what GOVERNMENTS do.



Humans are free to do what they please, to believe what they please, and act on those beliefs as they please (within reason).

But not when they are operating as agents of the government.



You can't possibly be that dense to keep bringing up straw men that have NOTHING AT ALL to do with the argument I'm making.

I ran out with yesterday's snow storm and we are supposed to pick up another 1 - 3" later today.

The inauguration is payed for by donors not tax payers, so

"Government: No officially-led prayers. No using taxpayer money on anything religious. Anything."

doesn't apply here.

Well, I'm not sure about the force part, but there are literary initiatives all over the US.

Perhaps you could join one?

Meanwhile I am glad they say prayers, even if they don't follow my religion.

<<<Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.>>>

A lot of people overlook the "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" part. And that means anyone...anywhere.

As far as I know, Congress has made no law respecting an establishment of religion, so I don't think our secular government is in any danger of becoming a religious one.

If there has to be some sort of religious individual in attendance, surely there must be some progressive Christian out there... And I'd think that everyone would be painfully weary of a man who dragged religion into his tenure as president and I'd certainly think that Obama would have had enough of controversial pastors... :shrug:

My mother had a very progressive priest who I ran into at a candlelight vigil protesting the impending attack on Iraq. I begged him not to tell my mother he'd seen me, since I would never have heard the end of it, and I never told her I'd seen him. The man's retired now, but I'm sure he'd make an exception for Obama. :-)

if there weren't. So what do you do? Go with customary/history?

...that's why I said I don't expect to ever get what I want here.


I hope before I die, to see our government completely secularized.... but I'm not holding my breath.

I didn't want to bring it up, as it's not really my business as a non-American; but now that you've mentioned it: I do find it really surprising that a president of a country with official separation of Church and State would need an official religious invocation. What happens if an atheist gets to be president? (well, it sometimes happens in other countries!)

*That* being the election of an openly atheist POTUS.




This country is too wrought up in mythology to allow such a thing. I just hope that an administration that values science over superstition might bring some needed change to that.

Why are smart educated people religious???

I really don't get it! Is there some religious gene that I was just not born with? It just seems so crazy to me!

Those are the "smart" ones.

The Bible is the "greatest story ever told," but it's just that, a story. It has no more of a basis in reality than the Wizard of Oz does, IMO.

just because you're NOT a believer. Keep being obnoxious and smug. *sigh*

Sheesh. And I'm opposed to Warren too...

:eyes: Did you even take the time to look before you lashed out?! Oh and furthermore, when speaking to ONE atheist you needn't act like youre speaking to ALL of us. I'd prefer not to be painted with your massively broad brush.

Sheesh indeed.

And I'm sorry, but my primary experience with DU atheists, from reading their posts, is that they are highly intolerant of people who have any kind of faith whatsoever (although Christianity is usually singled out for especial scorn). They have a tendency to ridicule all faithful people as stupid believers in superstition and books of fairytales--quite unlike their own presumably intelligent, rational selves. They also tend to be entirely intolerant of any belief in anything that can't be proven through hard, concrete reason. Even worse, they publicly discuss why on earth it might be that people are religious in the first place, and inevitably the conclusions run along the lines of: "Because they are stupid," "Because they fear death," "Because they are looking for an excuse for their bigotry," etc.

Never is there a glimmer of the idea that these explanations might not actually be functional. Nor is there any consideration of the possibility that people unlike them might not be stupid or superstitious or fearful or bigoted--just DIFFERENT, and that it might be nice to respect that difference, just as some faithful people respect THEIR right not to believe.

If you're not that kind of atheist, good for you. But you're sure in the minority here.

Ohh alas... somebody compared a religious book of stories to other religious stories. "Help, Help, I'm being repressed by the atheists!!"

Mythology, if you think about it, is simply a framework of stories that helps make up a view of the world and which is associated with a set of ceremonies that are meant to somehow influence the world of the practitioners' place in that world.
The Bible is a book of mythology. The Torah is a book of mythology. The Qu'ran is a book of mythology. The Ramayana is a book of mythology. The R(y)g Veda is a book of mythology (sorry, clumsy attempt at transliteration). And... that differential equations textbook I had to buy in college was also a book of mythology.

The Earth is at the center of the Universe... if you want it to be. It's a choice that makes the math involved in plotting a course for a space ship to the moon a hell of a lot more complicated... but I'm fine with any person who thinks they can do the math believing away.

The most ironic part of your post, in my opinion, is that you sound so defensive about someone else's valuation of your fairy tales. That would be like my internalizing Pastor Rick;s notions... but I, for one, have enough confidence in the validity of my own personally favorite fairy tales that those whose fairy tales include judgementalism of my fairy tales are of no concern to me.

Halleluliah, Flying Spaghetti Monster!
(If you're gonna dance with a fairy tale, it might as well be edible...)

There should not be any of this crap

I think Thomas Paine said it best:

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."

n/t

the practice of superstition. nt

I think people are going to burn Obama at the stake over this guy who's doing the prayer at the inauguration.

What's ironic is that atheists are probably the ones who most require protection in regards to freedom to religion-- America bends over backwards to accommodate different religions but not when you don't have one.

But I think that things are a progression and not a revolution so I agree that with the way things are now, we are moving closer and closer to a truly secular government and a truly non-discriminatory treatment of marriage.

...and I sure wouldn't be taking an oath on the Bible or any other religious book.

involved in a government ceremony. (I'm especially unhappy with the prayer in Congress every morning.) That said, at this point we've got bigger problems to deal with so I'll overlook the masses paying homage to the fairy tale guy in the sky . . . for now.

Why should I be forced to listen to some church babble at a political event?! If I wanted that - I'd go to church - NOT an inauguration.

i agree

(which I don't believe), how about someone cool like the Dalai Lama or, better yet, a zen master?

I vote NO prayers at State/Govt. affairs

I also don't like the prayer BS either, but it's part of the deal where we are at this moment and time.

Well I am not sure what I am, but I am at least an agnostic and I have for years found the fact that we have religion inserted into government annoying.

I have to agree with the OP regardless of what I think -- this admin is a hell of an improvement over the alternative.

America finds unity and identity in her shared symbols. You know the meaning behind them (or perhaps you don't?)... others do not. They are one way our young and new citizens are introduced to the special uniqueness of our country. It also bothers me how you, another fellow progressive, can be so disrespectful towards others and their beliefs.

I would like to think that any individual about to become president might swear in on whatever religious or non-religious text they wish... this is ultimately their personal choice, yes? IMO, I think the sacrifice of themselves to US for four-or-more years should allow them that small right. :)

in Leviticus.

The author is 100% correct: get the f*cking gods out of f*cking government, do whatever the hell you want to on your own.

As an atheist, I agree 100%.

Because I believe in the Constitution of our Founding Fathers does that mean I believe an African-American is three-fifths a person?

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you... :shrug:

The Constitution gives slave owners extra representatives in the House. The more slaves those owners have in a state, the more power they got in congress which in turn gave them more power to continue slavery.

I could apply similar context to the "abomination of homosexuality" in Leviticus... but even then, it would still require we take into account different perspectives, yes? My point still stands, nevertheless.

Curious that i haven't seen some of them bring it into the :hurts: faculties, but no doubt they will figure some way to do that too

Just curious.

There are many gay religious believers out there.

thats just not going to happen. I hope you don't get your blood pressure up hoping it will. Don't shoot the messenger.

Not even get over, just be realistic about and most of us are. Benedictions, congressional prayers and all of it will be with us for a long, long time.

Universal gay marriage will be here way before freedom from religion is.

One Nation, Indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.

That is a sentiment I can heartily endorse!

If you can pledge allegiance to an idea as embodied in the Constitution, you can pledge allegiance to a "colorful rag" as a symbol for the Republic that Constitution embodies. You have but to choose what symbol you are going to use as an avatar for the idea. I find the flag to be an inspiring symbol. I find the Constitution to be an inspiring document. I have no problem with either one. I also have no problem with the Pledge of Allegiance as it stands - except for the "Under God" part.

I am not a big A "Atheist". Theists think that not believing in a deity leaves a hole that must be filled, so they fill it with "Atheism". They make a belief system out of non-belief! I'll cop to being a non-theist, an atheist, but it doesn't define my life. I simply don't care! I don't believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, but I don't consider myself an Abunnyist, or an Aclausist, so why should I let not believing in YHWH define me as an Atheist?

Religion has no place in our government in an official status and this is what that is. What if Obama had chosen an Islamic Iman to deliver it? If it's good for Christians, then it should be good for other religions, like Jews, Buddhists and yes Muslims. I, for one, prefer that all religions be kept off of the podium altogether. I disagree that we should be moving to the atheist side though, because I find you people as dogmatic and intolerant as any religion.

Keep these talking-snake-oil salesmen away from my government.

Thanks for beating me to the punch.

And I also don't think marriage should be a religious thing either. I vote for
Justice of the Peace for that.

I couldn't agree more. K/R

I think your view is reasonable for someone that is not GLBT and a democrat. At the same time, I understand the outrage too, I just don't see a real good solution. It should have been clear to the GLBT community that this was the brand of politics Obama was going to play to build his power base, no surprises here.

But as we all know, Atheism is just another form of religion, and you can prove a negative. Or something.

activity the same way I look at delaying the beginning of any activity because someone is late.

If the time announced as the beginning time has arrived, and most of us are there, and the leader holds up the start because Phil (fill in name) is not there, the leader is telling me that my time is less valuable than Phil's, that he is more important and couldn't bother to be there at the beginning because the rest of us could wait.

If we must all stop what we are doing to lift voices and thoughts to the imaginary 'guy in the sky' then these actions tell me that others have beliefs that are thought to be more important than mine.

Both instances piss me off.

the government doesn't require that there be an invocation or that a bible be used in the swearing in. And it doesn't require that anyone attend, watch, or listen if there is an invocation or a bible is used in a swearing in. All that is required is that an oath be taken. its the choice of the individual being sworn in. And, in the exercise of the religious freedom granted every individual by the constitution, the individual being sworn in decides to have an invocation and wants to use a religious text for their oath, they have that absolute right.

NT

Don't forget to vote for me when you get the chance.

I've never understood why if we have separation of church and state that we have public officals having prayer breakfasts, and invocations and swearing on the bible.

Agreed that he should swear on a copy of the constitution. That would be really cool.

ceremony, with a religious one afterward being optional.
A clergyperson should NOT be the one signing off on what is really a CIVIL contract.

...and I just can't get worked up about all of this.
It's ALL completely ridiculous...

The fundies use these "symbolic" rituals to justify & validate their crazy agendas. What were the founding fathers thinking when they set these rituals up complete w/bibles?

We should be arguing the separation of church & state & should seriously be challenging these ceremonial props.

peace~:)

K&R!

:sarcasm:

I agree completely with you! I often wonder what this world could accomplish without religion, it probably would be a better place with less srife and wars!!

damn.

Adults swearing in on a book of fables seems...childish. I agree with you on this part: They need to swear-in on the Constitution.

But I will remain pissed that Obama started his administration off on the wrong foot picking a bigot to lead the prayer. It takes a step backwards, IMO.