Let people grieve and vent

Those of us who are heterosexual, or white, Christians or male - in short, the ideal Republican supporters - may have hard time understanding the sense of betrayal and humiliations that our friends at GLBT feel right now, just as we have had hard time understanding similar sentiments from blacks, or women, or Jews, Muslims, etc.

Yes, most of us still trust Obama. We do not regret our vote, we understand that we will not like every decision of his, perhaps even many of his decisions. But we realize that in the grand scheme of things - he is the best man for the job at hand.

So let our GLBT friends mourn, and vent. Let's not tell them to "get over it," or any other offending comments, because, really, we cannot understand these feelings.

there have been posts here telling mostly the gays to move on.

Personally, I am offended at every invocation. I think that offering a "non-denominational" one is offensive to the ones who are deeply religious, for whom any prayer is a meaningful one.

I'm okay with the venting and stuff.

When posters scream cuss words and homophobe and bigot at DU members, it's just plain wrong. Flat out wrong. It's showing a very nasty side of DU that I have never seen before and I don't want to see again. I wish somebody could tell me if this will be over with in a few days or a week or a month. But nobody can.

Let people vent and then maybe in another week or so we can have some good discussions again. The feelings here are to raw and angry to really tell people to "let it go". I think Obama made a really big mistake and I guess this ruins his whole presidency for some.

This is a witch hunt.

Its hard because I am upset over the Warren thing too but not being gay I feel like I have no part in the discussion, or at least that is what I am being told. I don't know what to think.

'nuff said.

I was yelled at during the McClurkin incident. It's the same reaction now. It's frustrating because most of the anger is misdirected and comments are taken out of context.

It's very unfortunate.

for no reason.

and even go so far as to DEFEND his choice, THAT'S the nasty side of DU. Not the side of gay DUers who are simply reacting to being told to shut up and take it. Unfortunately I have seen this side of DU far too often. Every time, in fact, that an issue like this comes up.

DUer I saw being called a homophobe yesterday, or what he said that a poster pounced on him for.

I'm talking about DUers who are defending Obama's choice of Warren and telling gay DUers to shut up.

I have no idea what you are talking about, but I DO know that I've seen plenty of homophobes posting shit here in the past couple of days, and weeks, and months, and years.

here yesterday, and called a homophobe. That is what I'm upset about. I said nothing about anybody telling gay DUers to shut up. If anybody DOES that, they deserve to be pounced on.

And, I'd like to tell you that I am also a nice, progressive, pro-GLBT poster. And I'm being attacked right here in this thread, for something I didn't say, don't believe, and would NEVER say or believe.

person. In the post I originally responded to of yours, it didn't seem clear that you were talking about a specific person.

I'm a nice, progressive, pro-GLBT poster too, and I'm not attacking you.

I think you just state your views pretty forcefully, and that's okay. :)

The message that I'm referring to was deleted, thankfully. RonnyK nad I both alerted on it and it was taken down immediately. So, yes I was speaking about specifics not generalities. And there were 2 more I alerted on because they did the same thing, one calling a poster an asshole and another one that said simply: Die. Really. Die.

These things are horrifying to me.

As a straight, black male. I am not threatened by gay people. I don't freak out and think they want to jump me (Hell, who says I am their type).

I am just very protective of Obama because I identify with him. It worries me to see him lose support so quickly.

I truly think he is opertaing at a higher level and sometimes prefers to tackle long term themes at the expense of pissing off certain supporters in the short term.

I don't think Obama is so naive to beleive that everyone will just suddenly start to open up if we become more inclusive. But I think he believes its going to reach SOME people, and that we should try.

One thing I know about Obama is that there is always a reason for the things he does. And I think we can allow 2 minutes to the McCain crowd on that day. We get the rest.

And that white gays face NO bigotry?

I'm asking you an honest question, not snarking. Because, even though we disagree on things, I am sincerely shocked you would think those things.

that beats you down into feeling you are not equal on a *HUMAN* level.

The bigotry they see is in the form of certain objections to specific gay sexual acts. No one considers them incompetent or intellectually inferior.

Its also possible for a white gay person to be somewhat in the closet and still enjoy the full social capitail of "whiteness".

There is no escape whatsoever from skin color (or gender for that matter).

And fuck but I'm tired of the whole "You can pretend to be straight therefore you don't deserve equality" shit that people like you pass out.

And SPECIFIC GAY SEXUAL ACTS!

Holy shit, how much more offensive crap could you shove into one little post? Astounding.

When you talk about white privilege. They don't want to admit it exists.

I am Caucasian, and I fully admit and believe that white privilege exists. And I don't see anyone else denying that either.

What I take issue with is when someone suggests that if I "pass" for heterosexual, I can advantage of white privilege and not face any discrimination. Not only is that a horribly ignorant thing to say, it's factually incorrect.

Nice strawman, though.

The funny thing is, even black people can enjoy straight privilege. Obviously. Look above. Completely ignorant about what gay people go through in this country. Completely oblivious to how stupid he sounds to say that we can pretend to be straight, therefore, the bigotry against us isn't so bad.

It's kind of hard for me to pretend to be straight, what with my partner and child and living in a house together and going to PTA and soccer games together and all. I suppose I should pretend we're sisters?

Holy shit I hate this crap so much.

Blasting others for supposedly denying white privilege while at the same time denying heterosexual privilege.

The hypocrisy, even.

people make judgements about other people in the first few seconds they see them, so skin color or ethnicity are noticed first.

Therefore, I am deserving of full civil rights and you are not.

Does that sum it up?

Also, please stop saying that if gay whites "pass" for straight, that they will no longer have to face discrimination or harassment. That is ignorant and incorrect. Believe it or not, homophobic bigotry is not only directed at those that are gay, but also those that are perceived as being gay.

Apart from that, why should I have to lie about who I am, or marry someone I don't love and will never be attracted to, in order to be granted full rights by a government to whom I pay taxes just like you do?

Please, just stop. Your posts are hurting more than helping.

I cannot believe someone on DU actually thinks this way. Dude, I realize you've got a perspective on this, because you can relate to Obama, but you might want to rethink that whole GLBTs-aren't-being-dehumanized-like-blacks-were-and-sometimes-still-are thing. It's myopic thinking, sir.

And NO, for the second time, it is NOT sexual activity, specifically, that is the locus of discrimination - it is love and marriage. How would you like it if the majority reduced your loves, emotions, your support systems, your affections, longings, hopes, and desires to simple animal lust? Kinda dehumanizing, ain't it?

The objection of those bigoted against homosexuals is not to 'specific gay sexual acts': it is an objection to such acts, and the persons who engage in them, on the ground that they are the epitome of moral decay and degeneracy, so offensive that their very existence constitutes a threat to the whole fabric of social morality. It would very much surprise me if, on reflection, you did not agree that this is something that indeed 'beats you down into feeling you are not equal on a human level'.

First, let's identify ourselves. You say that you are a heterosexual African American man. I am a lesbian Anglo woman.

1. Gay, lesbian, transgendered, and other queer folk are often literally beaten. We are often beaten down psychologically as well. People turn away from me when they learn that I am gay. They get up from the table and walk away from me without saying another word. They stand up in pulpits and say that I am an abomination. Gay people are murdered all the time, all over the world. Gay people were put in Nazi concentration camps, tortured, and murdered. Gay people are executed for being gay in countries. Gay people are routinely beaten and raped by the police when they are arrested for no reason.

2. Is any of this "worse" than the way that African Americans and other people have been treated? No. Does that make it ok to treat gay people this way?

Shouldn't we all be fighting for human rights for all, instead of comparing which group has been treated worse? Are human rights a consolation prize for past oppression?

#2. You write "The bigotry they see is in the form of certain objections to specific gay sexual acts." What "gay sexual acts?" I am a woman who loves another woman. Before this I was married to a man for many years. The "sex acts" that I share with my female partner are no different from the sex acts I shared with my husband, except that we do less. I'm talking about my personal life here, and it's difficult, but you seem to have some kind of idea that gay sex means perverted sexual acts, and you're wrong. Everybody has different sexual desires. Lots of straight people do some pretty unusual things. Lots of gay people don't do much more than kiss and hug, like me.

#3. So what if a white gay person can pretend to be straight? What kind of life is that? Again, you seem to be fixated on this idea that somehow white gays "deserve" to be treated badly because African Americans have been treated "worse." What about African American gay people? Don't you care about them, even if you don't care about white people having rights?

#4. "There is no escape whatsoever..." You seem to think that being gay is like a coat that one can put on and take off at will. You're wrong.

If I may make a suggestion, please read the book Stone Butch Blues. It may open your eyes to the way that gay people are treated.

Even though it's not the color of her skin?

Really.

I'm pretty damned masculine. I survived 9 years in the military while others I knew got harrassed far more than I did (my harrassment came via guilt by association). I don't lisp, I tend to walk with Marine military bearing everywhere I go. My voice is moderately deep. I'm amazingly good at the pronoun game.

I'm also 40 and single, and it got me fired from one teaching job and harrassed at another by students, parents, other teachers, and administrators until I quit.

Don't give me this, "You can choose to pass," crap. No, you can't. Once you're single and refuse to lie and put up pictures of women you're not dating and over a certain age, you no longer are allowed to pass.

Being told you are going to hell, no matter what, because of WHO YOU ARE... to me that qualifies as bigotry on the *HUMAN* level.

beaten to death for hugging his brother, his biological brother, just a hug, just recently, simply because the murderer THOUGHT he was gay?

If you cannot muster any empathy whatsoever toward the GLBT community, at least have some for the people in the straight community who are beaten to death because someone THOUGHT they were gay.

Your logic does NOT hold up.

that mentality you are displaying here endangers their lives. If you want to hate every white person in the world, that's your prerogative and I think you do from what you are saying here.

But you have no idea what it is like to be gay and should not tell gay people what kind of bigotry we do and do not face. You do NOT have a clue.

of what it's like to be a gay kid and a gay teenager. In other words, GROWING UP in a society that shuns you, where you can't even tell your own parents who you are. It's not remotely just a sexual thing, it's something you know about yourself at age 8 and 9 and the "outside looking in" syndrome starts even earlier.

face no bigotry. And I'm offended that you would insinuate that I agree with those things.

:eyes:

perspective? :puke:

That is not quite what Mr. Elkston said in his No. 10: he said homosexuals could do so in order to avoid overt and personal expressions of bigotry, in a way that blacks cannot. And in his initial post No. 5 he said nothing directly on the subject at all; he simply expressed a devotion top President Obama, and a willingness to defend him against all comers.

Cut and pasted from the post above:

"The bigotry they see is in the form of certain objections to specific gay sexual acts."

This place has brought me to tears today.

Hurt and anger make a flaming draught....

These are not equal hurts.

And people should not pretend that they are.

Any post that justifies anti-gay bigotry on the basis of objection to "certain gay sexual acts" would appear to be a violation of DU rules.

He never had it.

He has made it quite clear that his concern for GLBT people goes only as far as is politically expedient. He will not step up for us, ever. This Warren thing is only the latest example of his disregard for us.

You are absolutely free to believe in Obama all you want, for whatever reason you want...as is anyone. However, it is beyond rude and shows a complete and utter lack of empathy to tell people that have NO reason to believe in Obama that they should shut up and not criticize the man.

Whether that was your intention or not, that is the message your post is conveying. It is the same message that dozens of privledge, unthinking straight people are conveying in dozens of posts on this issue.

decades of discrimination , unequal rights and homophobic laws isn't enough mourning and venting? What your saying is just give them more time, enough time to "get over it".

and betrayal and humiliation even if I, personally, do not feel that way at that moment.

However not being gay - in this instance - I will never feel that way viscerally. I can empathize, which I do, but do not feel them that deep. And this is what I hope other DUers will do. Even if they do not feel this on a visceral level, that they - not I - will not tell anyone to "get over it."

Yes, this phrase is a condescending one and I am sorry that you thought this is what I meant.

Sorry

that those who feel betrayal should be free to vent and grieve; they have the silent support of many. But I draw the line at the drive-by vicious attacks on other DUers who respectfully voice a differing opinion.

but I don't think some of the hateful things said toward obama is right or deserved.

bigotry should never be tolerated even though it may not directly affect some of us.

I'm always reminded of this:

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out - because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out - because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me - and by then there was no one left to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

;-)