The more I hear both sides complain, the more I like Obama's choice of Rick Warren

Both sides of the political spectrum need to learn how to find common ground and work together if we are going to solve the challenges this country faces, even if we disagree vehemently on other issues.

I am glad Obama is focused on bringing this nation together instead of tearing it further apart.

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

You just expressed your unwillingness to be one of them.

Although I understand posting on DU is a way to voice your understandable anger and frustration.

But in real life, the only way to solve this problem is to do the hard work required to influence misguided people.

for this comment

THAT'S what an adult does. Not pander.

our world for the better will do the work while you take a rest.

IMO, it sounds like burn-out. Especially for some that were busy working against Prop 8 BEFORE it passed.

You work and work and see little results. Things are getting better though.

Climate change, poverty, HIV/AIDS drugs and education for Africa, health care... whether you like it or not, these are all things Warren cares about and works with us on.

Warren opposes distribution of condoms and the teaching of safe sex practices, pushing instead for Abstinence Only programs. Warren also uses monies for AIDS to fund proselytizing efforts in Africa.

He's said condom distribution isn't what he is going to do, but he does help and work with organizations who do that. He raises massive, Bono-level amounts of money to help victims of AIDS in Africa.

And I'll point out again he also has brought evangelicals to the table on climate change and poverty.

...cancelled out.;)

:rofl:

:P

He has a lot more distance to cover.

are more evolved intellectually and emotionally. And are capable of a more objective analysis on where society needs to go and how we are going to get there.

Do you realize the freaking irony here?

Pointing out the absurdities of social injustice and the logical fallacies.

Bigots always react positively to kindness. :eyes:

to others, even when it's difficult.

It's pointless to have a dialogue with them.

This is like asking MLK to sit down with George Wallace.

Wallace was shocked when Chisholm arrived in his hospital room to express her sympathy and concern. "He said, 'What are your people going to say?' I said, 'I know what they are going to say. But I wouldn't want what happened to you to happen to anyone.' He cried and cried," Chisholm recalled. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/2098

Read up on his governorship in the early 80s.

That's when George Wallace changed!

--about going too fast on this desegregation stuff."

invocation beforehand. (If it does, then Warren is an self-promoting extortionist, in addition to his other failings.) I wish people would stop posting as though having him say an invocation is part of some kabuki compromise process. It isn't. Tjhe twp are separate issues.

$$$greenbacks$$$. That's the basis of the problem. Religion in America has become nothing more than a "business", and peddling "hate" is the easiest way to increase the bottom line.

We have to be the example to people like this, or they will just stay in the wilderness forever.

...by RECOGNITION.

Would you try to find common ground with the Klan? Of course not. Some ideals are just SO wrong, enough so that they MUST be repudiated.

You are not going to shun your enemies into agreeing with you. It just enrages them more and creates more division.

It was like what Obama was saying about actually talking to our enemies around the world, instead of expecting that giving them the cold shoulder actually accomplishes something. You have to treat the situation diplomatically, instead of ignoring the problem and waging war.

If you can find common ground with people and highlight common interest, and starts the discussions that lead to more understanding and tolerance, and you have a much better chance of changing their perceptions. Most bigotry stems from ignorance, not an inherent evilness, so try to find the way to change people's perceptions without demonizing them at the same time.

It seems that the very people that claim to loath hatred and abuse are ready to pick up the sword that the bigots just dropped.

Either your for diversity or against it. Otherwise, your just partisan.

This just vindicates them in their own mind.

or else you aren't going anywhere

It is hard to respect that. I know there is a person under all that hate they have, but when they are gunning for me it is hard to worry about that.

Show respect towards them

Do you think this started with gay people hating right wingers, then they lost respect for gay people - no. Gay people would have been respectful of them if they had not tried to marginalize us, beat us, kill us, wish us off the earth - just because of who we love. You can show respect for them all day long and they will spit in your face and call you names. They have 'god on their side' you know. Their motives don't come from mutual respect, it is a hatred based in fear from those different from them and stirred by people like Warren. You are attributing liberal values of mutual respect to them that they just don't have.

That's not the point.

I am saying that if you want to make progress, we need to learn how to respect each other as human beings, without demonizing one another. Working together from a common ground is a great way to start a dialogue and increasing understanding of each other, which can lead to more tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality.

As long as I am endangered by these types (and I am physically and financially) then I can't respect them. If they show a bit of tolerance and willingness to accept me as an equal then we can have a basis to work from. But everything I have experienced and seen is showing them respect does not do one thing to garner mutual respect back. They have a belief system in which they view me as something to be fought. I live in right wing alabama, I have to make nice with these nuts everyday. I'm not out to most people because I have seen what happens to those that are. I see and hear what these nuts think and say about gays. It won't change because you show them respect. And to honor one of their leaders only vindicates their thoughts, although they think it is an insult to them for him to have anything to do with liberal Obama.

Maybe a bit of bigot on the side.

I am not going to pretend this is going to be easy and that people's attitudes will change overnight, especially if you live in right wing Alabama.

People are divided on the issue even in progressive areas of the country, and we need to start somewhere to start changing the perceptions of others and work from there until we can build a majority in this country.

You won't. Unless you change their religion, which won't even begin to happen in my lifetime. This is like the civil rights of the 60's. It was the right thing to do to go ahead and pass the civil rights bill. They didn't wait for hearts and minds to be won because of all the damage that would be done in the interim, which could be 100 years. Even 40 years later we have people that don't accept civil rights. That is why the south left the democratic party and went to the republican party, for the south is was pure racial bias and payback for the civil rights bill. Right now, not 30 miles from my house they still hold klan meetings.

We need to not honor leaders that promote bigotry and hatred. Honoring them will NOT win their hearts. It will only happen by forcing them to deal with equality and over time it will become accepted. It may be a long time, but at least the damage done by the bigotry is greatly reduced in the interim.

so we have to make progress in that area. We don't need everybody, but 51%.

The sane side (No on Prop 8) assumed CA was more sane than it was. The Yes side fought harder and used fear to motivate. I don't think it is a true metric of the for/against minds of CA. It was a badly fought campaign from our side.

Also, lets stop with doing this state by state. Time for the second civil rights bill on a national level.

:rofl:

Like the respect the Judenrat received back from the SS? LIKE THAT?????? And don't throw taht stupid Godwin's Law thing at me -- it's an accuarte anaology.

One does not need to give Warren and his ilk the latter in order to show the former.

Regards

I have no dog in this fight - I'm a straight, white male - however, I cannot see the benefit of solving a civil rights issue by showcasing a bigot at an event that will be watched world-wide.

Please understand, I still have faith that the future President Obama will ultimately do the right thing and enact laws that GUARANTEE EQUAL RIGHTS for ALL Americans, but allowing someone as divisive as Rev Warren to officiate in the Inaugural ceremony will NOT achieve that end.

These people have no interest in "dialogue" - they know they are right! The Bible says so! You actually think they can be convinced otherwise? Ain't gonna happen. Not for all the noble platitudes in the world.

Surely that's not so. Tammy Faye Messner changed completely on gay issues later in life as do many others. They didn't get that way by being shunned but by having that dialogue you don't want.

Of course not. Bigotry is WRONG, and he fought against it - nonviolently.

He was a former Klansman and changed. People do change when they are engaged in legitimate dialogue.

There are things worth fighting for, this is one of them.

but this still is not good enough reason for me to support his pick, and I will continue voicing my reasons why. Hopefully, as a result, we can find common ground.

of reaching common ground. It is simply honoring someone who spews bigotry. And warren is not a political leader. This is about Obama hoping he can somehow pick up some religious right votes in 2012. Instead, he put himself in danger with losing more left votes than he will ever gain from the extreme religious right, which is where Warren is.

But coming back to reaching common ground. Let's examine that more. I think that people like Obama and Warren already know exactly what they can agree on and exactly where they part company and always will, unless one or the other caves.

The issue is gay marriage and Warren said he will not compromise on that issue.

The issue is women being treated as human beings and Warren already said he would not compromise on that issue.

Warren already cut off all opportunity for finding common ground.

as human, that they need 'repairing'. Too bad you don't find the fault here. read more on this moron.

Why? Because we might actually be able to agree on a few issues and move this country forward.

Of course, there will continue to be a multitude of issues with which I disagree. And certainly, no bigot can be a friend. But I am happy to work with others where there is possibility for agreement.

This isn't "finding common ground." This is bigotry, plain and simple. I am deeply, deeply disappointed with Obama for this.

still believes in the racist teachings of the KKK that he once belonged to. I do not.

How did he get beyond that intolerance? Someone sought common ground with him and over time his views changed as he changed. All your statements do is serve to enforce the segregationist lifestyles that will continue to keep equal rights from being achieved by everyone.

And before you say a Christian conservative can't change, look at the recently departed Tammy Faye Messner (Baker). She became a strong advocate for gay rights and marriage later in her life.

It can not have been intentional.

Irony meter overloaded, completely busted.

:D

to pander to those who hate us, is a brilliant move. right.

for women and GBTL. But we should just "get over it". The GOP won't support those folks rights so we shouldn't make an "issue" of them. It is all about getting "re-elected" and not about representing anyone or anything. Question is, if no one represents our intersts, what were they elected for?

You're free to your opinion of course.

and he hasn't even been sworn in yet. i set a higher bar for him and he has failed.

grey area.

re the appointments. but now this slap in the face of those who worked for, prayed for, and supported Obama has blown away all the grey.

It's amazing how that can change one's perspective.

by Warren sharing a stage with Obama at the inauguration. You should talk to some women in third world countries about human rights. Women being forced into circumcision, slavery, marriages. We Americans have it so great that we have the luxury of turning something disappointing into outrage.

So it's easy for you to be cavalier about this.

It's like me claiming that unemployment is not an important issue because I have tenure.

"We Americans have it so great that we have the luxury of turning something disappointing into outrage"

I watched Dr. Zhivago again this weekend...and came away with very similar thoughts.
We are so incredibly fortunate to live in the country that we do...

Those of us who can afford to sit and blog on the internet
have it far better than the vast majority of the world.

not.

Do they? Only the guy who compares gays to rapists and child molesters.

Check!

away from the rigid right-wing ideology on some big issues.

I know as a woman I am happy to be able to offer to strip myself of all those rights I am entitled to as a human in order to concentrat on those other more imortant issues. I know my gay brothers and sisters share my enthusuasm for self sacrifice.We must marginalize ourselves for the good of others!:grr: :sarcasm: And especially for others who will do nothing to support us!

It is counter productive to rank these issues. What if someone is gay, but doesn't support certain efforts to fight poverty

It's at least cheaper, huh?

comments comparing homosexuals to rapists and child molesters, see he gets a free pass on that because he's paying cash for it.

I feel like such a silly willy gay now.

:hi: :P

This place is BONKERS.

although honestly these threads have served as fly paper, it's been interesting to see people try and justify and or defend this terrible, terrible pick.

The fact that Warren worked to abolish the existence of familes is personal and directly effects thousands of families in daily life. The fact that he advocates retricting the rights of woman to control their own reproductive system restricts their lives as well. He ranks certain American citizens as "second class" and palces limitations on their value. This is a really big deal.This is as bad as if Obama praised China for its Human Rights Efforts.

Global Poverty is not liely to be eraticated but it is entirely possible Americans can lose their rights and many already have.

Great cause.

Woohoo.

Yah.

Since you were seeing "both sides".

The VP who took over from him. Veto'd the first civil rights bill, pardoned the Confederate leaders, etc. could be looked on as the main reason that we ended up putting off civil rights for another hundred years. Not even the icons are untarnished with some bad choices.

devoted to each side of the debate myself.

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Obama IS focused on bringing the nation together. Most of the people complaining don't really want that. They want to obliterate the other side and have their idea reign supreme.

I'm very proud of that.

Those are human rights. This isn't a political position. This is a human one.

On this issue. I hate the fact that is even an issue at all. But every issue is a political issue. This is politics we are talking about here. People who have litmus and purity tests over one issue are on the far side.

These people that Warren riles up would as soon see me dead than have me be part of their civilization. I have known people beaten and threatened by them. And also it is a financial issue, we loose our jobs over who we love. These people suppress us. They will not be more amenable to gay rights because someone gives one of their leaders a place of honor at his inauguration, they will feel vindicated in their beliefs.

You assume all gays agree with you that this Warren thing. That it is the beginning of the end for the Obama administration's liberal views on GBLT issues. There is no way to tell, but I imagine there are many (most?) gays who may be disappointed, but see this strategic political move for what it is, and are waiting to see what Obama really does before they become outraged.

Out of proportion? How about: Obama is legitimizing bigotry! He might as well have invited a Klansmen! people planning protests, Hitler popped up a couple times.

And, the Hitler reference isn't true.

Wow! And people wonder why so many are disenchanted with the Democratic party.

Regards

"reaching out" and "putting on a pedestal"

I think Obama should reach out to Iran. I don't think Ahmadinejad should speak at the inauguration.

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:rofl:

Nice one, Mook!:thumbsup:

not to those who want to be inclusive.

If you were the victim of bigotry then maybe you would see why people need to fight sometimes.

demonstrates your ignorance twice over.

you are instead cut from the same cloth as those who would oppress. You just happen to be on the smaller team today.

If you want to claim I am cut from the same cloth as those who would oppress, then tell me what I have in common with the oppressors. I want specifics, if you can't give me specifics then that is proof that you have no clue who I am.

Which is most people I imagine. Most people won't even remember the guys name or what he said hours later.

Nation under god...., pray for our leaders... etc.

... but to those who disagree with this view, nothing but action on Obama's part will change their view. So, I suggest we just sit back.. let them vent, and wait for Obama to garner enough support from moder dems & republicans to push through an agenda that will be benificial to the GLBT community. Once he does that, a majority will "forgive" him for this, and all will be well.

... feel closer to them?

Putting a homophobic bigot on the world stage in a position of honor is not the way to bring the nation together.

It is an offensive slap in the face.

i have no problem with it. the rite isn't happy?

Anything else I have to say to you would be deleted.

Off to ignore you go.

:shrug:

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position discrimination as a valid point of view. No, thanks.

That's a great way to say it.

There are not always two legitimate sides to every argument. And those who rest on that are usually full of it - like Fox "News"

Heckuva job.

And those come in all sorts of political stripes. Obama's move isn't reaching across the political aisle, he's reaching across an ethical aisle, and is tacitly approving Warren's bigotry.

I mean the KKK is just a bunch of patriotic White Christian Americans, right?
Gotta reach across the aisle you know..... just be careful reaching through the flames on that cross. :eyes:

And if Obama is to have a successful Presidency, they will not be very happy a lot of the time.

Fortunately for me, I am more of a centrist, and I think I will like the things Obama does to bring America together.

Doug

:rofl:

I was making a point about governing from the center. Thanks for the mocking attitude though.

Hell, I'm in Virginia too, do you truly think we can move things forward by treating everyone who disagrees with us like shit?

1.) DU is most definitely not full of "Far Leftists," and
2.) I don't play ball with vile bigots -- they aren't people who want to move forward.
3.) I'm in NJ now, because people like Warren -- you know, the guy I shoudl respect and whose ass I should kiss -- made it impossible to live my life in VA

Nice playing with you.

Much like the mocking attitude towards those angry about this?

You people talk a big game about how important it is to "reach out" and "understand" others, yet those mad about this are basically told that they are just whining and need to shut the fuck up. Mind telling us how all that computes?

He signaled this strategy repeatedly during his campaign, and I heard the message. He is a bigger man than I to try to resolve this kind of inherent conflict of ideas, and I applaud and support his efforts. And plan to learn a new way of progressing ahead that doesn't involve polarization to the extremes. This is something that is more easily said than done.

Rick Warren's views are abhorent to mine. So what. The world is filled with people with whom I don't agree. And that is a fact that will never change, so I am not going to waste time kumbaying a scenerio where we all join hands and find peace and unity, or stay at war with everyone who doesn't share my views to the point that our nation can't progress as it must.

I won't ever like these kind of views, I will fight for change; but I am not going to do battle over the idea that people with opposing views must be ostracized or shunned at every opportunity. The right does that for a living, and as a result, they live miserable control freak pissy little lives. I think a balance must be struck between trying to eliminate or modulate or minimizing these views and still maintaining the ability to get business done as one whole nation.

There was that episode where Santos, as Congressman, was working on a health care bill with a Republican and was being accused of catering to the right by Josh. But actually he ended up convincing the Republicans to adopt some liberal measures partly because he got shouted at by the "left", and therefore looked serious about working together.

Are fictional TV shows, and the state of Maine.

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Too early to put a label of "miserable failure," but the Warren selection does not give me any comfort or hope as to what's next.

Rigid ideologues on both sides of the isle have an inherently totalitarian mindset that is bad for democracy.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere

-- Martin Luther King

And Dr. King would be offended by your abusing of his words.

on Dr King than she was?

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice. But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.'"

MLK didn't run from racists; we shouldn't run from homophobes. We should confront them in the manner most likely to achieve our ends, which certainly izn't ignoring 'em. MLK didn't ignore the racists; he challenged 'em.

Great.

Get along with anti-women, and anti-semites. We need to further legitimize their world view and hatred,and after all, they may, just possibly haven't been catered too enough during the last eight years.

What sort of "common ground" are you going to find to work with bigots and homophobes, the culturally conservative, the RW fundies? Haven't we learned by now that if you give these people an inch, they will take a mile and then some? Hasn't there been enough problems caused by their hateful political agenda?

Too many people over the past decades, and now, have suffered at the hands of these people to ever find "common ground" with those that hold to the same bigoted and hateful agenda that Warren does. All that you do when you try to "compromise" or "find common ground" is simply enable those people in spreading their pain, suffering and yes, death.

like any specturm, has a lot more than two sides.

Second, so far, Obama seems to reaching out in only one direction. In so doing he is creating division where little to none had existed before.

Third, Warren is a preacher, part of the far religious right, and a hateful, shameful part at that. It is not as though Obama is trying to come to agreement on politial issues with Repubicans. (And he has appointed a few Republicans without getting this kind of reaction.) Rather, he is pandering to a pastor.

Third, are you suggesting that there is no way to find common ground with someone, other by choosing him to give the invocation at the Inuguration? And how is giving an invocation coming to common ground.

Read what Barney Frank said. His statements are sensible and self-explanatory. For me, yours raise more questions than they answer..

Thank you.

It is past time for some serious dialogue and solutions to occur on many issues that have been used to polarize and divide the nation. We cannot survive by perpetuating the political practices of the past 3 decades which have fostered people being at each others' throats constantly.

changes his opinions and views because of this event.

I highly doubt he will change at all.

Obama should've, and could've, done better with the pick.

:puke: :mad:

and this op is a prime example of that behavior

furthering the Republican aganda and I'm sooo over that. Let's try the new way a united way.