I am gay and I'm not upset about Rick Warren. (Warning: Long and Rambling. Apologies in advance.)

Every gay or lesbian person in America has a slightly different perspective on our culture, religion, tolerance, acceptance, family, life, and politics. All perspectives are valid and it is certainly reasonable for people to be angry by Obama's selection of Rick Warren for the inauguration. I won't tell you that you don't have a right to be. You do. Your perspective and life experiences requires nothing less, and I respect it completely. My experiences have given me a fairly unique perspective and I've found that I'm just not as upset by Warren giving the prayer as some. It's just my perspective, which I thought I would share in the event anyone is interested. If not, stop reading and don't flame me.

Rick Warren is a representation of my family. Well, at least my biological family. I was raised in a strict Southern Baptist household. My family (with the exception of my lovely little sister) believe that homosexuality is a sin. They believe that there is something wrong with me. They believe I am choosing to rebel against God. BUT they do love me and have supported me in other areas of my life - academically, financially, etc.

When I was in my early 20's, my strict upbringing caused me to be very confused about how to reconcile my Christianity with being a lesbian. It led to panic attacks, severe depression, and eventually I became suicidal. Traditional therapy wasn't working. Meds weren't working. It was all spiraling downward quickly. In my darkest hour, as a last attempt at life before ending it all, I turned to my family. (Big mistake.) They promptly enrolled me in an ex-gay change program and Christian therapy (and paid lots of money to do so). At that point, I was so confused, desperate and despondent, I didn't know what I believed anymore. I didn't care where I was sent, what I had to do, or what the methodology was... all I knew was that I wasn't quite ready to off myself yet, and here was an option I hadn't yet tried.

I was in the program for months and honestly tried to make it work. But eventually I, like so many others, realized that it wasn't that I was failing the program... the program was failing me. Even in my fog of confusion and depression, I could identify that something was very wrong with the way these people thought.

Much to my family's dismay, I dropped out of the program, got a good LGBT counselor, and finally got appropriate treatment for the anxiety and depression. Ten years later, I'm can report that I am a well-adjusted, self-accepting, happy, non-Christian little dyke. I understand that I can't change my sexuality anymore than someone can change their race or genetics. And I no longer would want to. Like Yardwork says... I like being gay!! (Yardwork's post the other day entitled "I like being gay" was absolutely fantastic and summarizes much of how I feel. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7982459)

My parents continue to disagree with my "choices" :eyes:, but they have made some positive steps. They welcomed my partner (when I had one) into their home and accepted that she was a part of my life, and therefore a part of theirs. They no longer lecture me about why being gay is wrong. They've stopped giving me Bibles for Christmas. Is it the complete acceptance one should have from their family? No. But, they have accepted me to the extent that they are capable. Their distorted view on Christianity, years of what I consider to be brainwashing, and (in my mother's case) a touch of mental illness limits what they are capable of. I have chosen to accept them for who they are, even though they don't accept me. I have chosen to act more Christian than they have, despite the fact that I stopped considering myself "Christian" years ago.

One interesting thing I look away from this experience is that as screwed up as their views are, I do believe many evangelicals' hearts are in the right place. My parents and the ex-gay nuts I was involved with ACTUALLY believe they are attempting to save my soul. They aren't "evil"... they are just WRONG... and spectacularly so. I believe many have been brainwashed to the point that there is very little logic or reason left in anything they do. I feel more sorry for them than I do any anger or hatred. They live simple, narrow, delusional, sad little lives.

Politically, at least since I've been around, the Republican party was the only one considered remotely acceptable by them. To them it is black and white: Republicans are pro-life. Democrats are pro-abortion. Republicans promote "Christian values". Democrats promote the "homosexual agenda", feminism, tree-hugging, and anti-Christian views. Division, division, division.

Obama's campaign was deliberately a "big tent". Everyone's ideas are welcome and the focus is finding areas of commonality, not focusing on division. (Ex. Obama stated the fact that NO ONE wants MORE abortions, so instead of focusing on abortion itself which divides Republicans and Democrats, Christians and non-Christians... we should focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies from occuring.) I believe this isn't him compromising progressive principals, I believe this is him shifting how politics works in this country.

I believe that is what he's doing with the selection of Rick Warren for the prayer. Like with my parents and other evangelicals, I don't believe Rick Warren is an evil man... I believe he is a WRONG man about many many things. Obama and I disagree with Rick Warren on abortion, homosexuality, and a host of other issues. But that's not what Obama focuses on. He has found some commonality with Warren and evangelicals that perhaps could end the bitter divisions that have separated us. Maybe it's international aid for diseases like AIDS and malaria, maybe it's homelessness and poverty, maybe it's embracing fatherhood vs. being a deadbeat dad. The point is, I think Obama believes that he (and vicariously all Democrats), can find at least ONE area of commonality with these people. And maybe, if he can highlight that commonality through Warren, he may be able to bring more people into the "tent". And THAT's how we'll change this country.

If we exclude or exile Evangelicals the way were were excluded for the last 8 years, it continues the culture of division propagated by the GOP and the mistrust deepens. If we are accepting of them, it gives us leverage to demand acceptance from them. We can either spend the next 4 years fighting the evangelicals' attempts to disrupt Obama's administration, OR we can let them know that they have a place in the administration and encourage them to participate. Find areas of commonality to work on. Ignore our differences but take a stand when necessary. But in general, accept that they are just as American and just as big a part of America as we are. Because, like it or not, they are.

Just like with me and my family... Does this involve us being bigger people than they are capable of being? Yes. Does this involve us acting more "Christian" (even though many of us aren't) than they are? Yes. (We're fairly used to this already aren't we?) But I think it's the right thing to do. And the only way real, wide-spread change will occur in this country. Rick Warren could turn out to be a great ally for Obama and I'm at least willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt for now about those he involves in his inauguration and administration. You can never anticipate how a move like that will change the "hearts and minds" of Warren and evangelicals. And I care less about who he lets give speeches or prayers than what he actually does in office.

So there's my perspective. Hope I didn't offend anyone. It's just where I come from.

A few other points:

1) Obama never promised anyone that his selections for his administration or inauguration were going to be exclusively progressive, pro-gay, pro-abortion, liberal democrats. Obama did say that he wanted lots of varying view points around him. He stated did not want to surround himself with people who agreed with him all the time. Obama has been completely consistent in implementing these sentiments. It's our expectations that have shifted, not his.

2) The inaugural prayer is apparently important to Christian Evangelicals. I'm not sure I even believe in God at all anymore, so it is certainly not remotely important to me. As long as the prayer is kept relatively non-political and gays and abortion aren't declared an abomination to God, I don't really care. So I think it's ok to throw them a bone, let them have their little prayer while I go take a bathroom break, and then we are able to say that we extended an olive branch.

3) With respect to the argument that this "legitimizes" Rick Warren. I have sad news for everyone: He's already been legitimized and so has his message. Many many many Americans believe that there is something wrong with us, that we are "sick", that we need "help", that we don't deserve equal rights, etc. etc. etc. Rick Warren's presence or absence on that stage won't change that. But maybe being open to have a conversation with these people would... eventually... maybe... hopefully...

Peace.

the 18K marriages on the books. That means tens of thousands of kids being illegitimized in the eyes of the law, invalid contracts, property rights, visitation, etc. Glad to hear you aren't bothered. Rick Warren would be glad to know that. I, myself, am very sad tonight.

whether or not Warren participates in a microscopic fragment of an essentially worthless ceremony pales in comparison to the real issues such as that facing the GLBT community.

If ever a thread deserved the Greatest Page it's this one, especially in light of the insanity today.

Fantastic work Lucky 13. Happy to rec.

My family feels exactly the same way, thank you for this post.

you really need to send this out to the media somehow.

I am pissed at the Warren pick, so I don't think Obama should let him speak, but I see your perspective and completely respect it. Great post.

I see your perspective too. And it's not the pick I would have made... but I think I understand what Obama is doing and I'm just not so angry about it.

Thanks for disagreeing nicely. Some other people... not so much.

That is your right.

I do not agree. That is mine. :-)

On edit: You'll be amazed at how some people here will jump in and say nice post to you...why? Because you agree with them.

My perspective is just slightly different and I realize that...

Ok, I am not gay or lesbian, but I have to admit that thirty threads on DU are a bit excessive.

I detest Rick Warren's views, Obama does not agree with Rick Warren's views. Because Obama is trying to be inclusive, he has pissed off the GLB community.

It is an invocation. Just an invocation. Do we really have to be as hateful and partisan as the Republicans were for eight long hellish years? It is not like Obama and Warren are bff's.

Damn.

Obama is going to step on some toes sometimes. A few minutes during the Inauguration and we will not see Rick Warren again.

God. You want people to be so tolerant to you, then learn to be tolerant of people you disagree with or hate.

There is a dear Pastor who lost his wife in July, that my daughter and I know. I cannot tolerate his beliefs, but he is a fine man and so are his 2 wonderful daughters who are Evangelicals too.

On the topic of gay marriage, he completely agrees... the answer from both is NO.

You do not know what the future holds for Mr. Obama and Mr. Warren.

Please stop saying we'll never see him again.

This inauguration was a chance to celebrate with his supporters. To bring in someone who looks down upon several groups who supported Mr. Obama is reprehensible. It's like saying thank you for your hard work, but that's over. Go back to doing what you were doing.

Charter member of the Log Cabin Democrats?

as they are and blindly submit to social injustice.

is trying to figure out what they hell you're talking about

My commitment to the gay community and working for gay rights is solid and unwavering. We deserve nothing less than full marriage rights. We deserve nothing less than full protection from discrimination. We deserve the right to adopt and raise children. I'm not log-cabin anything.

You can disagree with me, but can you try not to be mean? I respect your opinion. I understand your anger about this. My life has just resulted in a slightly different perspective on things than most. I'm not "right". You're not "right". We all have a right to feel how we feel.

Here's this guy who worked hard to invalidate your marriage in CA and took away an important civil right -- so we're going to let him set the opening tone for Obama's inauguration and, even though you supported and donated to Obama, you just need to suck it up, cause its going to give a warm and fuzzy feeling to people who didn't support Obama and who actively opposed him.

The inauguration is an extravaganza of symbolism. Everything is symbolic. Everything has a message -- right down to the people invited to march in the parade and the bible used for the swearing in and where everybody stands.

Letting Rick Warren be the opening speaker -- giving him the spotlight before Obama even says a word -- sets the tone not only for the inauguration, but the administration.

The symbolism is of primary important here -- and the symbolism sucks.

Just as an example, imagine if Obama had decided to be sworn in on a Koran to honor his father. What do you think would be happening in this country right now? There would be rioting in the streets. Why? It's just a book. He's only reaching out. Would that work?

Or, imagine if Obama has chosen Bishop Gene Robinson to give the invocation. What do you think would be happening?

Sorry -- in this case, the symbol is everything.

It's not the pick I would have made either. I believe there were other ways to reach out to evangelicals. But I'm just not willing to attack the guy before he's even gotten into office and done anything. Obama has proven his brilliant at working people, winning different groups over. I think that's what he's trying to do here.

Lots of people didn't support Obama that we need to reach out to. We're not always going to like it and it's not always going to make everyone happy, but it's what needs to happen. Maybe this wasn't the way to go about it, but I'm willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt.

Symbolism is less important to me than action. Obama could swear in on an Ann Coulter book, while wearing a bikini, burning a flag, and french kissing Dick Cheney for all I care IF he does the right things in office. I voted for him because I believe he WILL do the right things in office and want to give him a chance to do so.

I understand that symbolism may be important to you, but it's less so with me. That doesn't make me less gay. It doesn't mean I'm log-cabin anything. It doesn't mean I'm betraying "family". We just think differently.

I understand you're angry and I totally respect that and your view point. Just try to have a little respect for mine.

then he could have invited five people from across the spectrum to give invocations. That would truly show he was reaching out to all Americans.

However, to single out one of the most bigoted people in the country and elevate him to this position says an awful lot. You may not think much about the symbolism, but believe me, it's very important.

see, he can't win no matter what he does.

nichomachus means too. It is a slippery slope and we are fighting among ourselves (big surprise). I do think we desperately need to reach across the aisle and heal this polarized country before it implodes from the anger and hate. I just don't think that this choice was well considered. It seems to me that this inaugural is a celebration between people that struggled together to bring to fruition this historical event. It should be our party (and anyone else willing to drop the bigotry and hate and wade in), but the selection of Rick Warren casts a pall on it and to quote some CNN commentator ( she was right on the other night talking to Anderson), Obama just doesn't get it. It is a matter of respect and integrity. There are many pastors out there that walk a fine line of moderation and any one of them would have been a better choice. I am willing to bet that MOST of the congregation of Rick Warrens voted for McCain and I don't think this should be rewarded so resoundingly. Open up a dialog-fine, just don't make us feel like we are second class citizens one more time (and this is exactly what the words and beliefs of Rick Warren and his church are doing when they denigrate us as human beings).

Anything other than 100% immediate unconditional and irrevocable ostracism for anyone who has said an unklind word about any gay person as official law of the land is just not good enough for some people.

Me? I'll take available improvement over unrealistic idealism any day.

Gay people have completely different life experiences and very different opinions. We are creative and smart and sensitive and most of all.. individuals. I find it amusing that another gay person doesn't get that.

Now apparently, I'm a traitor to everything queer. Fantastic. Now I'll never get laid.

:hi:

:puke:

It is completely unnecessary to be mean spirited.

The OP was an interesting perspective. And she wasn't telling people who opposed the Warren thing to stop opposing it. Just saying where she was at.

I wish I could recommend your well written, non-rambling post, a dozen times.

Thank you.

So heartfelt, lacking in ego or BS, clearcut and wise. The same as I find Yardwork's posts.

Thank you, Ladies!

:)



:applause:

:hug:

And that you're empathizing too much with those who oppress us.

Have a good day.

... that was kinda a key point of what I wrote.

A gay person disagrees with you and so she's a self-loathing queer? Just how fucking mean-spirited and insulting can you get? That's nothing but bigotry.

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I'm not as close to it as you might think. I haven't been to church in years. I see my parents maybe once or twice a year. My life now has very little to do with anything remotely that fanatical.

Evangelicals are sad, narrow, illogical, ignorant people. They reveal themselves as such daily. Their power in the country has eroded spectacularly. I believe they will soon be completely irrelevant.

I refuse to acknowledge that they have any power over me and my life about anything. They are a problem to be overcome. They are a group to be won over. But I will never allow them to oppress me again.

As I said, I understand the anger. And I just hope we can agree to disagree. We're all on the same team.

Have you forgotten Prop 8 so soon?

Are you aware of the role Rick Warren played in that?

Evangelicals may be sad, narrow and illogical, but giving Rick Warren a platform and prestige elevates their sad, narrow and illogical worldview in importance. You may have shut them off but Barack Obama just made sure their ambassador will reach millions, with the honor of speaking at a national historical event to boot.

If you care at all about that issue, you should be upset about the Warren pick and worried that Obama apparently remains close to Warren.

Maybe your "special upbringing" surrounded by religious whackos has left you unable to see things for what they are, but Evangelicals are a clear and present threat to every gay person in the world. Did you think the Mormons were the only ones rabble-rousing their people to get out there and vote for hate?

You can pretend all you like that they are not oppressing you. I'd just like to point out that they ARE, in fact, OPPRESSING YOU.

Your willingness to embrace Warren is sad and disturbing.

I'm trying to separate emotion from it. Tactically I understand it could be a good move. Is it the choice I would make? Definitely not, but I'm just not willing to condemn Obama for it.

I don't look at it as a certain group of people is "oppressing" me. It's way more than just the christian evangelicals that seek to limit gay rights. That's why gays can be stoned to death in the middle east. Jailed in Asia. Raped, beaten, and abused in hundreds of countries around the world. No ONE group is "oppressing" me. But every individual who is working against gay rights is an obstacle in our path. They are obstacles that can and must be won over, forced to evolve, or overcome.

Now, cleansing the world of Evangelicals would be satisfying, but I'm pretty sure would also be illegal. But for the sake of argument, let's say all the Evangelicals are raptured tomorrow and no more remain on earth. Do you think that will end homophobia? Do you think all opposition to establishment of our full and equal rights will be gone? Do you think all instances of gay bashing will stop?

Not a chance. It's more than evangelicals that are the problem. And, much to their dismay, they will not be raptured tomorrow or next week or ever. They are staying right here. Apparently, based on recent votes, we don't have the numbers to beat them into submission just yet... but we are getting there. So the choices that remain are: win them over or force them to evolve.

We are in the process of forcing them to evolve. Society's views have shifted on this so dramatically just in my lifetime. They are losing the culture war. It's slow and frustrating, but it's happening... and they know it. Until we have the numbers to overcome them completely, winning them over, at least on some common issues like poverty, etc. may be a good tactical option and make work to speed up their evolution out of the stone age...

you through some tough times in your emotional well being. Perhaps now the GLBT community is asking you to stand with them in solidarity of message directed at those that would continue to brush our community aside, as if we are relevant only during campaign fund raising season, We're here, we're queer, and we're not going to take it any more!

and i do not "agree" with the Warren pick. I just think I understand what Obama is doing with it and think it makes some sense.

I also believe in picking your battles. We all want to rage right now because of what happened with Prop 8 and with good reason. But I think there are bigger issues to focus on than this and better use of our time and energy.

And instead of slamming the new president before he can get into office, I'm just willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and see what he can do for us once he gets there. I didn't work my ass off to get Barack elected only to turn on him days before his inauguration. I believed in him and still do and want to see him (and us) succeed.

Does that make sense?

between slamming the new president before he can get into office, and telling him that his celebration bus is parked on our bodies - while he has a chance to move it and park it elsewhere.

Fine - pick an evangelical for the invocation. Just don't pick one who is actively working to destroy our families and calls us the moral equivalent of child molesters. Such evangelicals DO exist, so there is no reason Obama needed to pick this one to reach out to evangelicals, particularly at this time when we were unable to celebrate his victory completely because, partly under Warren's leadership, so many of our families lost (or are threatened with losing) legal recognition of their relationships.

Dupe - wrong space

to the problem, and can't see nearly as clearly as Lucky can. You're empathizing far too little with those who support you and look to acknowledge your rights.

Have a good day.

however those who support giving Rick Warren a platform do not support us, whether they realize it or not.

Is that what this has come to? If so, you'll find that like McCarthy, the people you number as non-supporters will far, far outweigh the reality of the situation.

Don't play the blame-the-victim game with me.

I didn't go after Rick Warren. Rick Warren went after me.

I'm not telling black people to wait for rights, or disabled people to wait, or women to wait.

I'm not telling union workers to accept pay cuts and abusive CEOs. I'm not telling religious people to convert.

I'm asking for every other person in the Democratic coalition to have my back. And to understand why this is deeply offensive, particularly after Prop 8 passed with Rick Warren's help. And, indirectly, Barack Obama's.

Don't you tell me I'm the oppressor because I'm confronting people with the reality that they can't have it both ways. You can't be apathetic about an affront to my community while claiming to support my community.

If that's a reality you can't face, that's your problem.

P.S. Gay people may not outnumber you, but we are a sizeable chunk of the Democratic vote and we will not be Sista Souljah'd one more time and take it lying down. We get blamed pretty much every election for helping Democrats lose--well you know what? Maybe it's time for the party to learn we can't be kicked aside when it's convenient and keep coming back for more.

Rick Warren IS the enemy. He declared himself as such.

Lucky13 is NOT the enemy. You declared her so based on your own cooked up bullshit litmus test. That's McCarthyism.

I questioned her judgment.

There's a difference.

And by "those who support my community" I wasn't referring to Lucky - it's obvious she supports our community, as she's part of our community, although I believe her thinking on this issue is too forgiving. I was referring to those who think this is a great political move and that we who object should get over it, while still claiming not to be antigay.

Like, presumably, "Ignored" at #97 below.

A BIG K&R!

This is sorta what I was getting at earlier, but you expressed it so much better than I did, esp that part about always having to be the bigger person. It's not easy. It's damn difficult. But it's the only thing that really changes a culture.

Post Ghost.

I was raised by southern Christian fundies, too. And I'm hoping that they will see Warren's inclusion as a reason to actually listen to democrats for a change. Because no, we don't agree on everthing, but we do agree on SOME things.

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Like Warren. He's doesn't have to be exclusively progressive, but choosing Warren is a slap in the face to every gay person in this country, whether you recognize that or not.

It's a pity that it doesn't bother you. I'm no longer interested in being a "bigger person" than the bigots who hate me. I'm only interested in finding some way to be equal to all other Americans before I die.

I wish I could have typed something as eloquent as you just did. But, I'm straight, so even if I had.. it would never come from the correct viewpoint anyway.

Your points in this post are completely spot on. It is very new, and very difficult for many to see the "We can disagree without being disagreeable" point of Obama. He wasn't kidding when he said that.. and you're absolutely right. I do not like Rick Warren, but there are parts of his "Platform" that are very much democratic. Helping the poor. Curing horrible diseases. You can claim that he wants to help those issues for policial reasoning only - but who cares. He has a large voice and he can assist us there. I don't see Obama running to him on SCOTUS nomination ideas.

Anyway - I K&R'd this, and It's one of my favorite posts of the year. Nice Work!

Both Obama and Biden have made statements where they do not support gay marriage (eventhough they also did not support Prop. 8). Furthermore, these statements were of great value in the robocalls and other ads used by the pro Prop 8 people in their campaign. The selection of Rick Warren is taken as a slap in the face to the GLBT community, while making concessions to one of the farthest of the far right wingnuts. He could have chosen an evangelical who is more politically neutral on this issue.

I like what you have said, I have a story that is someone like it (raised Mormon), but I think that there is a fundamental difference between Obama and Rick Warren. Obama is willing to have people disagree with him, he is intellectual and almost enjoys the mental sparing. Rick and the like, they are NOT for that, as you said yourself, they are brainwashed to the point of no longer thinking on their own. They can not be persuaded... once you come to a conclusion based on your faith in an invisible being... LOGIC HAS LEFT THE BUILDING. Get me?

Are there some people that we can win over, sure. Are we going to win your parents over, HELL NO. If their own child can not make them see the light, Obama has no chance in hell.

I think their seat at the table should be filled with someone with the intellect to change.

K&R for reason.

Did your family apologize for sending you to the de-gay program? Was that evil or wrong?

That can wait, your story is not uncommon, and actually rather representative of people coming to terms with being gay in their family and accepting being gay themselves. It's not like the movies where EVERYONE is SO happy you are gay.

Nobody would presume to take away what you went through. It is awfull. But you made it and there are many others than your family that are happy you did. I am happy you did.

But this is not about personal stories. This is the big picture. This is about right and wrong, good and bad, promises and lies. Your posting gives cover and relief to the alleged open minds that wander about here, looking for the last ledge to cling to with fingernails for themselves, not you. It really is not about you. The fact that they love what you wrote is not the from the heart telling of your travails, but the love that you as a gay person are the proof they need to continue their little tirades about their dinged hero that screwed the pooch on a bad decision.

We are the ones, the gays that write and tell people that this is wrong on so many levels are your real friends. We are the ones that care about you as a person and another gay that had to endure, they see you as the newest posterchild for their use.

Don't be used again.

You're wise and you take no B.S. from trolls. :thumbsup:

So there it is.

It's either and extremely stupid move, a cynical political ploy, or bigotry. Since I don't believe Obama is stupid or bigoted, I have to assume this is a cynical political ploy. If he thinks he's going to win fundies with this, he is sadly mistaken. For every fundie he gains from this, he'll lose two LGBT voters, imho.

the average ignoramus sees gays as they are caricatured in the media. I believe if more people were exposed to gays and found out that they were just like everyone else and because of who they are, they have been subject to bigotry and abuse, it would change a lot of minds.

Same thing with Prop 8, it affects real peoples lives. We need more personal life stories out there.

Just wondering.

in fact it makes you look foolish.

It makes it a little hard to take him seriously.

genuine and good.

Having her used as cover for a flawed and tragically stupid thing that Obama did by others here is really the shit.

therefore you admitted to stirrin the shit.

Your post makes no sense.

Do you agree that putting real peoples faces to these issues is helpful? An example I see is the evil Cheney. But even that slimeball could not bring himself to support DOMA becasue someone he knows personally and intimately would have been adversely affected. If not for his daughter I'm pretty sure Cheney would have been on board.

to suspect that there are some deliberate provocateurs here...and yes..it's the primaries all over again..sigh

Bathe in their entrails!! :sarcasm:

The venom and hate on DU lately is depressing

I'm straight and wish he had chosen a non-homophobic asshole to deliver the invocation. Even Rev. Wright would have been better, imho. I just hope he moves on from this and starts delivering on progressive civil rights legislation once he's in office.

Great post.

it is cover?

Sorry, but you can't assume your opinion is the same as every queer person in America. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and perspective and just because you don't like it doesn't mean I or anyone else should shut up.

experienced, as painfull as it was.

We all as gay people feel for you and care for what happened to you. But this is the part that you are not understanding.

What if your Warren and his kind had more power? More than helping a huge state take away the rights of a part of it's population? What if he gets more?

Then it is not about you the gay person, it's about us, and the majority want rights, and the majority (unless I was off planet)does not want Warren there.

If you are happy with it, good. The other result is that you are used as the banner for another reason by souless, love challenged, and compassionateless "Democrats".

to piss in the pot. grow up.

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:hi:

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Since i'm a woman, if i'm anti-prick, does that mean i'm gay? Doesn't that sort of go full circle. ;)

They go swimmingly.

The poster is USED TO ABUSE. And you applaud her ability to accept it.

Jesus Effing Christ.

:puke:

If this had been anyone else, we would have been collectively chewing some ass. Progressives do not frame pro-choicers as "pro-abortion," PERIOD.

God, that makes me sick.

... I made several references to my gender throughout the post.

Makes me think you didn't actually read it.

the fundys say that democrats are "pro-abortion".

Don't you remember that stupid campaign they had... "It's a child, not a choice"??

Just to clarify... In my post, I was trying to illustrate the type of thinking/verbage my parents use. "Pro-abortion" is not a term that is used by me and I am exceedingly pro-choice.

You weren't speaking for "Evangelicals" there. You were lecturing us from YOUR perspective. You were either negligent with your words, or that was a Freudian slip, and either way, your credibility in my eyes just sank like a rock in a river. The apology is good, but if you expect people to consider your thoughts on such an intensely painful and bitter subject, it would be wise to choose your words a lot more carefully in the future.

I wrote a long, rambly post interrupted rudely several times by work and wrote the wrong phrase in the wrong section of my post. You were right, I was negligent with my words. I used the phrase earlier in the post in context of how my parents talk and mis-used it again later, I assume largely out of carelessness, though one can never rule out some sort of deep subliminal freudian motive. I doubt it could be diagnosed over the internet, however.

It seems here that often if you merely disagree with someone, people accuse you of being a troll or republican or shit-stirrer... or people discount your view point all together. I'm pretty sure I could never convince you of who I really am or what I really believe even if I tried. So think what you will. I can only be me.

would you still defend him? Gay people must demand our rights and there is no longer any excuse for discrimination against us.

People are defending Obama, and being called homophobes and bigots by association...by association-by association I guess.

He is not the choice I would have made. But I'm not willing to throw Obama under the bus over this. I believe what he is doing is tactical and I'm just not angry about it. That doesn't mean I'm thrilled. Just not angry.

No, there is no longer, nor was there ever, any excuse for discrimination against us. What happened with Prop 8 was fucked up (along with other legislation around the country). But turning against OBAMA and raging against some stupid meaningless prayer isn't the way to change things either.

OBAMA isn't the problem. And yes, the time for justice is ALWAYS RIGHT NOW! BUT... that's not always realistic. There is work to be done. Serious grass-roots, mind-changing work. We don't have the numbers right now to win. But we will. Soon. So we can either focus on regrouping for the next fight for our rights. Or we can turn on Obama and completely shoot ourselves in the foot.

I am straight and have been told that as such, I could never undersand what gays endure. That may be true, I don't want or care to argue that point. But whatI like about your post is that you want to cut through all the rhetorical bullshit to tell people that it is necessary for all of to live togethr as peacefully as possible.

My wife once attended a great seminar (it was even religion-based) that said that one thing that was neccessary for us to get along as individuals is for us to seriously re-consider the term "rights." To many times we exercise our "rights" at the expense of others.

Let's say that you said something that offended me. It was cruel, pointed, and I have the right to be offended. But I choose not to, I give up that right, and forgive you and show you love instead justified righteous anger.

That is difficult to do, but doing makes me grow.

If we can show Rick Warren that we strongly disagree with him, while showing him the love and kindness he is unwilling to show us, he may not grow, but we will.

Wow.

Great analysis. Great story. I'd never heard a story like that. I feel like I learned something today.

You helped me look at this "controversy" at a whole new angle. Thanks. You are a wonderful woman.

Your post is very thoughtful and "christian" in the best sense of the word. However, I don't agree with Mr. Obama's decision. I'm gay and Jewish and I plan to put the TV on mute for this. Just like Prop 8 was a buzz-kill on Election Day, this will be a buzz-kill for Inauguration Day. I'm not angry, just sad.

I don't agree with it either. And I wish he had made a different choice. But I'm accepting it, am not too angry about it, and think I understand what he's trying to do.

My TV will be on mute for that portion of the inauguration also, so you and I will be sitting in silence "together". I am just choosing to focus on our points of opportunity, not failings. 1/20/09 is going to be a great day and Rick Warren shouldn't ruin that for anyone. Not after the last 8 years.

Keep your chin up.

:hug:

:hug:

Heathens all.

This man isn't evil either. He made controversial statements that challenged America's moral standing. He did not and does not advocate denying rights to groups of people. He stood up for the poor across the world. He has a huge following. Prominent members of the religious community rose to his defense. Yet circumstances being what they wer he was demonized.

I hope Obama will bring Reverend Wright back into the fold.

I think Rev Wright got railroaded by the media and the right wing racist hate machine. Obama had to distance himself when Wright did the National Press Club thing. But still I like Rev Wright and he should definitely be giving the invocation not the disgusting bigot Rick Warren. Imagine Sean Hannity's head exploding if Rev. Wright gave the invocation!

Disagreeing without being disagreeable- what a concept!

I'm so glad to see some level-headed discussion regarding the Warren thing. I've actually spoken with many social conservatives who had doubts about Obama, but are seeing him for who he really is- someone who really wants to bring the country together, not divide us. One of the main reasons I voted for him, something I TRIED to explain before the election, but they were so convinced that he was a socialist, extremist, etc.

Anyway, the point is, by reaching out to people with whom we may disagree, we "heap coals upon their heads" and actually have a chance at changing things, at changing the way politics has been operating in this country for the last few decades. No more division, we are all Americans, as you so eloquently point out.

:thumbsup:

No one even notices who does the invocation until everyone makes an issue of it.

There is so much more to care about.

who have said that this isn't something we should care about have also said that everything else that has happened so far is also something we shouldn't care about or something we have anything to criticize about.

Nevermind that, after the cabinet is chosen, the story in most administrations is usually pretty much over in terms of deciding what those administrations will do.

As a result, everybody is whining, forgetting that representation is inevitable.

Obama is damned if he does something and damned if he doesn't.

Not to mention Obama has brought in GBLT people. Especially from said "community", all the venomous drivel being spouted off by them is going to rebound on them one day.


Also:

I am bi and I make my own choices as to whom I date, or when sexual activity is appropriate. This is not repression, this is self-respect and respect for others; the latter being quite a rarity in this day and age, I must say... I'll spare the notes, thesis, and case studies. Until my book gets published.

I'll also say that I'd side with Elton John regarding terminologies. He seems to understand more than most.

The conjured mental images make me quite nauseous.

:-)

And I found this place early on. Very well thought out and articulated. Thank you for the time you spent on this. It resonated deeply with me and I'm sure it will with many people. A true voice of reason during this confusing and divisive spell we're going through. Fondest regards, KJ.....

for a well thought out and reasonsed statement.

The Rick Warrens of the world don't know how to live in a world where they are not fighting or oppressing someone else and that is their fatal flaw.

Thanks for sharing and even though it was painful after you came out to your family, rember that burden? That burden is gone now, you now know there is nothing wrong with you or the rest of us. You are right, it is the Rick Warrens of the world who ultimately are unhappy about their lives and the path their lives are on.

K & R!!

Why pick this man who called gay members of our party who believe that their rights were invaded by saying that members of his (Warren's) church should vote for Prop 8 because he believes that gay marriage is akin to incest, child rape and polygamy?

Warren goes way over anything near being tolerant of the gay community and that is enough for me to ask why let him have an honored position in Obama's inauguration? I don't get it. Then there is the 14th and the 1st Amendment of course that Warren doesn't even approach! This was a very poor choice in my estimation for these reasons!

... but for all the reasons stated in my post, I'm just not as angry about it. If Obama thinks there is something to be gained by having him give a prayer, I'm willing to trust his judgment on that. I didn't work my ass off to get the man elected only to abandon him days before he takes office. And he's exercised tremendous judgment to this point. I'm just willing to give him the benefit of the doubt...

I'm not telling you not to be angry. You have every right to be. Just as I have a right not to be. I just wanted to share my perspective and where I'm coming from.

I am glad you and your family are at peace with each other and they have accepted you for who you are.

This is a story I've never shared on DU before. Personally, I had a gay uncle (my mother's brother) and he died of AIDS about 11 years ago. I never knew him that well and only remember seeing him twice in my life (once when I was a teen and the first time I don't remember, but I have pictures of him at a holiday gathering when I was younger). Unfortunately, he and my mom were never close and I don't know why (to be fair about it, my mom wasn't close with her other siblings as well).

People are quick to judge, even those of us who are straight. That is a mistake that we all make in life.

"Because membership in a church is an outgrowth of accepting the Lordship and leadership of Jesus in one’s life, someone unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle would not be accepted at a member at Saddleback Church. That does not mean they cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives."

http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/membership/group_finder/faqs_smallgroup.asp?id=7509#q_49

1) I'm no longer "christian"
2) Their views do not align with mine (though I acknowledge their right to have them)

The purpose of my post isn't to defend Warren. I wouldn't have picked him either, BUT I think I understand what Barack is doing and I'm not going to turn on him over this.

That's all I'm saying.

K & R

They exclude you because you were born gay, we exclude them because they choose to believe the world is only a few thousand years old.

I love the idea that we should do our best to help people understand reality and all, but I think you're reaching here. The heart of the problem lies in the fact that they reject logic and reason outright. It's nearly impossible to get an evangelical christian to go against the bible on any matter, despite all evidence to the contrary (my family is the exact same way). The only way you're going to be able to convince Rick Warren that being gay is not evil is if he is willing to consider the possibility that the bible is 'wrong' in some way. It's likely he would rather die than entertain that thought.

I'm not saying it could never happen, or anything. The point here is just that it's okay to marginalize backward thinking, and having this man in the spotlight does just the opposite.

excellent post

At first I was upset that Obama had not thought this through.
Why would he want to upset the Gay community as well as what I would describe as "clear thinking" people? :shrug:

Then I heard him address the issue and I started thinking it over.

Now I see it the way you see it.

I'm African American and straight but I tried to look at it as if Obama allowed a member of the KKK to get on the stage.

I would be mad/hurt as hell and I would be writing letters.marching and going real crazy.

Now I am of the mind that IF having a known racist on the stage with him would in anyway help to "bring us together" it would be worth a try.

Our goal is to be ONE America!

Let's try to seek common ground and just maybe, we will find a touch of common ground.


Thanks for your post.

Empathy and finding common ground is the ONLY way our society will see significant progress. Just like with foreign relations, we can't just CRUSH and OBLITERATE our enemies. The best way to eliminate your enemies is to turn them into friends. I for one THANK GOD, we have someone like Barack who gets it.

(For context, I'm 31, gay, white and female.) I actually DID think I would see a black President in my lifetime. I just thought it was about the numbers. A study came out showing that our populace is shifting such that in just a few years whites are projected to be the "minority" (if you lump all other races into one big group... as if there are no differences between them :eyes:). So I guess I just figured it was only a matter of time until, just by sheer numbers, we'd have a person of color as President.

And I figured white folks would progress along the way too. Clearly the younger generations are much less race obsessed than my parent's generation or their parent's generation. It was only a matter of time until the majority of white folk would feel "ok" about voting for a person of color.

What I didn't anticipate was that so many white people would feel way more than "ok" about it so soon. So many people just got the fuck over themselves and their racism and woke the fuck up. I didn't anticipate that so many would work so hard to get this man elected. I didn't anticipate that so many priviledged, straight, white people would be SO DESPERATELY THANKFUL to have this man lead our nation and eager to take his orders and direction.

It gives me so much hope. If we can go from the civil rights movement era to where we are today in ONE GENERATION... I KNOW gay and lesbian equality is soon to follow.

Prop 8 is wrong and hurtful. And yes, it was a setback. But it's not the end. And believe it or not, it's progress. We just need a little more time, a little more effort, a little more education, and a little more empathy in this country and it will happen. I HAVE HOPE!

As I mentioned, as a straight African American woman that lived through the 60's I can certainly feel the pain.

As the great granddaughter of slaves I could certainly hate every white person that ever lived in NC,SC,MD,and VA but I don't. That would make my cholesterol go up daily and would not change a thing.

While I know this is a different day, I do believe there are smarter ways to handle this Warren Situation.

All day long we are seeing this debated on TV.
It is giving Warren plenty of free publicity and causing some Prop 8 lovers to take his side instead of the side of those that think clearly ~ like US.

The other day I was in the Mall and two white ladies were waiting for the checker. One said to the other, " Those Gays are Crazy, why don't they shut up and get a life?!"
They went on and on and on about the Warren issue.

As they were leaving , I spoke up and said to them, " Ladies,your discussion hurt me dearly. My favorite uncle died last year. He was the greatest Christian I have ever known and he was Gay."

They were in shock that I spoke and didn't know how to react so I went further...

" Do you know what percent of the population is Gay?"

" Go home and check your facts, then check your own family...I just bet there is someone that you love dearly that fits that description."

Their faces were RED and I smiled sweetly at them and said, " Have a Merry Christmas!"


I say leave Barack alone publicly on this matter.
Leave Warren alone publicly.

Let the man say his pray and sit his evil butt down.
Why are we giving him all this free publicity and dividing the country even more?

One of the tactics that I believe worked best in the Civil Rights Movement was done with dignity and grace, I think it is a lesson for all of us to remember... When Rosa Parks sat down on that bus that day it was historic!

Why, because even those that hated my people felt a tug at their heart that day.

I can't think of what could be done symbolically on Jan. 20th by all of us that think clearly on this issue but I wish someone would come up with an idea that had dignity and calls attention in a compassionate way to the injustice of Warrenand CO's evilness.

Peace and Justice for ALL

I, too, will have the television on mute during the invocation but will watch and listen to the rest of the inaugural coverage.

Recommended.

She came out as gay to her family one year after she married her (male) college sweetheart. She'd tried hard to change (and she and her husband were truly great friends, and he was a wonderful guy) and the family was devastated. Not only because of her announcement, but because they were losing a son-in-law everyone loved.

She soon fell in love with a woman and "wed" her in a commitment ceremony. Her parents, very conservative Catholics, took part in the ceremony. My elderly aunt, a nun, told her that although she had personal views on homosexuality, that it was wrong, but she loved her niece and had come to love her partner, and that it wasn't her place to judge anyone. Even my grandmother came to love them as a couple.

She and her partner attended all family gatherings, went on vacation with everyone. They split up, after 10 years, for the same reasons other couples do -- money problems, growing incompatibility. Again, the family was devastated, because again they'd lost a loved member of the family.

I have always been so impressed with my aunt and uncle. They came from such a different world, they would have wished a different kind of life for their daughter, but they try so very hard. When they go to see her, she takes them to performances by the Gay Men's Chorus. And they enjoy themselves.

I am not Gay, but being an African-American I like to think I can understand the hurt and outrage of the Gay community in this pick. I can only imagine how I would feel if Obama had selected a klansman or white supremacist to give the invocation.

But that said, we have to ask ourselves whether our particular individual interests are more important than the interests of the whole of society? Yes, Warren is working a repulsive anti-Gay agenda, but he is also working to move the evangelical christian movement away from their narrowly focused anti-Gay/anti-abortion agenda, to a more comprehensive social justice foundation. That in my book is a good thing and should not/cannot be ignored. I would like to think that I would accept a klansman's speech, hell ... I would help him write it, if that klansman was leading his klanvern to, without respect to race, feed the hungry, house the homeless, and care for the sick. I hope that I am big enough to realize that the world is bigger than my particular circumstance.

"I hope that I am big enough to realize that the world is bigger than my particular circumstance."

Well said.

Although it's a teary, watery kind of smile. :)

I said almost the exact same thing when asked how I would feel if Obama had a Klansman up on the stage with him:

"because I understand what Obama is trying to do, I would not get all bent out of shape if he put a racist up on that stage. He's acknowledging the existence of a group of folks he doesn't agree with and I'd much rather have them on stage for two minutes and then vanish than be a part of his policy team.

So no, a racist used the way that Obama is using Warren would not bother me. And I'm a black chick from Georgia so that should say something to some of you."

It's good to know that there are others who can see the big picture. And the fact that it's black folks doing that makes it that much sweeter for me.

I still think Obama's inclusion of this divisive bigot in his inaugural celebration is a politically tone deaf mistake. If he wanted to be "inclusive" there are any number of ministers who oppose gay marriage that could give that invocation without bringing along the kind of baggage this guy has.

Your characterization of many of those on the right as people who aren't evil, just WRONG, is spot on... however there are many others on the right who actually are evil and they do spew real hate.
I have no doubt those people really believe as you say, but make no mistake, many of that ilk go far beyond the misguided people you describe to perpetuate the polarization for their own financial and political ends. Since the mid 60s, it's the only way most on the right can win elections.

The politics of division is as old as the republic. Using "us-vs-them, our-cause-is-righteous, the-bible-says-so" has been the power building and money raising strategy of preachers and politicians throughout our history.

it never hurts to embrace the enemy in hopes of making him (or his followers) one of your own. hey, worked for the irish when the vikings invaded.

so long as pastor rick doesn't politicize or behave like a douchefountain during the blessing, no problems here. i'll assume for the sake of argument that pastor rick knows the gravity of the situation and won't go out of his way to make himself nor the president look bad.

i can understand the anger at the choice, but if president obama has to stop and think about his choices or who he'll offend/make happy, he'll never get anything done.

I'm so glad there's someone else out there that hasn't devolved into a thoughtless, unreflective, reactionary.

Thanks. K&R.

:kick:

I'm feeling so conflicted right now, as I agree with your take on what and how Obama is implementing "change". I agree with the idea of listening to opposing view points, even those which offend me greatly as a woman and a liberal who has worked hard for civil rights for all people. I think I see where he is going with this move, and I hope it's effective.

That being said, I've shared those views on DU and I'm afraid it could be confused with approving Warren's message, even though I've been very clear that I do not approve his message. No sane person could approve his message. Or perhaps it is taken as not caring. Nothing could be further from the truth. The fundies reaction to this is that we are godless baby killers and murderers and they don't want their pastor associated with us (ha ha). I hate being reminded how much they want control over my body. I hate being reminded that they feel they can and should judge other people's choices, esp gay/lesbians. But I try to move past my hate, even as their decisions are impacting my body and offending my belief in what is right. Perhaps I'm holding my breath as we get dealt blow after blow by the * administration...His latest move to authorize the medical community to deny any of us service because they are offended by our morals is just another reminder of how little freedom and respect they afford anyone who doesn't agree with them. The idea that the medical community can choose not to help someone whose beliefs they don't like is outrageous and has dangerous implications. Outrage exhaustion re the Hobby Christians.

So, I think I see where Obama's going and I agree with the concept of inclusion at the table (not policy) -- but my heart is breaking for the gay community right now, who have been dealt 3 blows recently: prop 8, Warren, and now the UN fiasco. Of those, the things that steam me the most are Prop 8 and the UN vote, because they have a direct impact on rights and have nothing to do with listening to another POV. My heart and soul hurt for everyone who is impacted by the narrow-minded bigotry exemplified by the people behind these policies.

We've been at the mercy of the fundies for so long now, that it's hard to realize they've been dealt a huge blow. The Palin debacle showed them how their power has diminished. The American people do not want to be dictated morals from the fundies. I am proud of those Americans who voted NO to bigotry and hatred. I have great hope that Prop 8 is going to be found to violate the California constitution and be put to rest where it belongs, in a field of failed bitterness and hate.

I look forward to great change for the gay community. I am so sorry for everything you have had to deal with lately.

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I, for one, consider this issue resolved in my mind/heart having read this post.
Talk about hearing from a grown-up! Thanks, Lucky.

I have been pretty upset by this whole Warren choice but your post helped me to see that it's not as bad as I've been feeling it to be. Thank you!

Now let's just hope that Obama keeps his REAL promises to us and repeals Don't Ask Don't Tell, etc.

I'm not interested in who he lets speak or who he talks with. I'm interested in what he does. And I didn't work my ass off to get that man elected only to turn on him days before he even takes office.

We'll see how he does and THEN judge him on his actions.

perspective is NEEDED after living 8 years in a skewed Bush world.

in EVERY way!!

I am so glad I saw this. You have a gift for logic and for words.

as someone else said, "To the Greatest page with you!!"; and, into my bookmarks as an example of everything I admire. :)

:hug:

this country can either keep fighting and hating and tearing each other down...or we can start trying to reach out to each other and work together.

i believe our new leader is smart and deliberative and is doing the latter.

it's cliche...but it's 100% accurate.

YOU see that. many others here do, too.

the hope is...some on the other side will as well.

and i bet some do :)

thank you

I'm lucky 13, too:)

...and there are some fearful people in the religious right who want to be filled with brotherly love---that is why they are religious and not military or corporate---but they need the help of others to let go of their fears.

Peace.

peace to you my friend...


bump

Thank you for sharing Lucky 13,:thumbsup:

legitimacy to the fundies narrow minded and bigoted views.

And sorry but, you are dreaming if you think the fundies will change their hearts and minds-EVER.

Which is why giving them air time is the worst possible thing Obama could EVER do.

Same sex marriage laws must be passed regardless of whether the fundies approve.

This is a civil rights issue and opinions and hearts and minds have NOTHING to do with any of it. Simple as that.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/18/kolbert.warren/index.html#cnnSTCText

It's some commentary from Kathryn Kolbert, president of People for the American Way. I'm not surprised that people are upset about Warren, only that so many people are willing to right off the next four years because of it. I think that is be unreasonable.

I don't consider them nice people who genuinely care. If they have an LGBT child and they still haven't come around, all the worse. My partner's grandmother was raised as a racist (she's 83) and she got over her bullshit upbringing to except my partner and I as well as to vote for Barack Obama.

We don't applaud racism because some nice old women are racist and just don't get it.
This is grotesque.

whether or not you are aware of it, your post illustrates the very reason to include racists and bigots and other misinformed people - your partner's grandmother "got over" her upbringing. How did she do that? Did she become familiar with a wider world and other ideas? That happens by getting to know those whom you fear and finding out there is common ground and gradually being won over to a new outlook.

Like many others here, I can't say I have walked in the shoes of gay people.
White, 33, male and living in a country that has almost always been among the first to expand the idea of personal freedom and rights.

As a non-US citizen I can't say that Warren rings the bell as hard as he does for most of you, if not all of you. But having seen the outrage I have educated myself. And I can understand the anger. There is valid reason to be outraged and disappointed.

That being said, I share the OPs hope/sense that there is a method to , what many of you would call, Obamas madness. He is reaching out a hand to Warren and the apparent huge following he has. He gives him a pedestal to preach on the things that are important to him. And you can bet Warren has a enough political fingerspitzgefuhl not to include gay rights among that.

And what happens the next time a Prop 8 like measure or opposite pops up? Obama picks up the phone and says: "Warren, I'd like for you to take this opportunity to return the favour and preach some love or sit it out."

In the meantime, there is a chance that you will force some rethinking in parts of that community. A reconfiguring of association. They will be forced to alter their perspective on Obama. It will make it easier for him implement the changes that goes against their wishes, when they at the same time see him as a collaborator on other issues. Among those changes being the rights of the LGBT community.

At least thats what I hope will come for it. It could all amount to nothing.

The crux of the matter is if you beleive that is what Obama is trying to do. Whether you think he means well, but uses the wrong tactic or you think he does not care.

you didn't ask/beg people to recommend it. A good post like this doesn't need it. They recommend themselves!

I normally don't even read those cause it annoys me so much.

When you are their token gay that agrees with them, and put up for display.

I don't think Warren's a good choice, I'm just not willing to turn on Obama for it before he serves ONE DAY in office.
You and everyone else have a right to be angry if that's how you feel. I stated that in my FIRST PARAGRAPH.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone. I just shared my perspective. I honestly didn't think anyone would even read it. Why am I not entitled to have my own life experiences shape my perspective and why should I keep it all to myself?

But you've declared yourself king of the gays able to speak for all of us. Well you don't speak for all of us. And I only speak for myself. And I'm telling you that you are fucking crossing a line with me and it's pissing me off.

I understand that you disagree with me. I respect it and I've treated you with respect. I expect the same in return.

All you great posts comments. Amazing that you will read this and not make any connection to the posters experience and what Warren stands for. Truly repugnant.

Shame on you all.

Yet again. I am not welcome in his big tent. He thinks that his love for Michelle is bigger and better than my love for my wife. He has said it.

I wish all of you would just take a moment to think how profoundly painful it is to be left out of the landmark victory against bigotry that Obama's election represents and to realize you are really, really not invited to the big international equality party. Really. Not. Invited.

Inclusion of some gays in his cabinet doesn't change this one iota. Does anyone think that Bush's choices to include people of color in his cabinet negates the racism of his war against Iraq? No token choice will ever rebrand Bush as a believer in equal rights. As to Obama: Read what the man has said.

Barack Obama doesn't mind eviscerating me because he really does think that his love is better than mine. He has said so. If he is your hero, fine. If you want to push this away in your joy of his triumphant victory you will find plenty who agree with you. If you want to make excuses for his behavior, then you will be widely praised for making people feel more comfortable. It always works that way.

But do keep in mind that Barack Obama is prejudiced against me. My love sits in the back of his great big bus. It hurts so bad.

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See my sig line. You can justify all you like, but that doesn't help those of us who are Atheists, Agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhist, etc.

I'll not be happy until all manner of religion gets the fuck out of my government.

If by giving this free pass it makes you feel better, more power to you... but that doesn't help the rest of us, and for once, I'd like to treat the American people as a whole instead of worrying about every little faction.

My very first choice is that there is no prayer at all before the inauguration. As I eluded to in my post, I am somewhere between agnostic and atheism. I am a graduate student taking classes on evolutionary theory right now. The intrusion of religion upon our right to conduct and teach basic SCIENCE is very real. Did you know that it is taboo to submit a grant proposal to NSF with the word "evolution" in it? They are not considered at all at least for the last 8 years. Their intrusion effects my University daily.

I consider their intrusion on government, including this and any prayer, completely inappropriate and a violation of separation of church and state.

But it's happening. At least this inauguration. So I was responding to our current circumstances and this most recent controversy.

I don't agree with you but I appreciate your perspective.

I'm not gay and I'm pretty ticked about it. It's a slap in the face to progressives and liberal who put him in office.

We're just "high school" ya know. The other "good gay" said so.

"The point is, I think Obama believes that he (and vicariously all Democrats), can find at least ONE area of commonality with these people. And maybe, if he can highlight that commonality through Warren, he may be able to bring more people into the "tent". And THAT's how we'll change this country."

This puts into focus the only logical path that will result in the greatest good. Sage advice if accepted and followed to it's end. Thanks.
quickesst

it gives me pause.

I had it would have sunk!! Every time I see the arguing back and forth (and it's been for other choices Obama has made) I want to say these very words:

"If we exclude or exile Evangelicals the way were were excluded for the last 8 years, it continues the culture of division propagated by the GOP and the mistrust deepens. If we are accepting of them, it gives us leverage to demand acceptance from them."

Acceptance, it makes sense.

"unrepentant" homosexuals to be members of his church and has programs there that attempt to "cure" gay people. He also frequently equates being gay with pedophilia and child molestation. This same man has porn monguls accepted as members of the fold. Interesting guy.

Its good to hear a variety of viewpoints.

I have a pretty similar suspicion to yours, I think. The only good reason to bring someone as vile as Warren aboard is in an attempt to cleave the evangelical right in two. Best case scenario, he marginalizes the far, far, super way out there right when they go after Warren for showing up with the "commie Muslim" Obama, and that stirs divisions that distract them from being relevant for the next four, or twenty (hey, I can dream) years.

As a member of a somewhat less vilified class (atheists) who have also been on Warren's shit list, I hope we're right.

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Thank you so much for this post. These same kinds of thoughts have been running around in my head ever since this was announced. Your words are eloquent. No one, ever, has been won over to any point of view by refusing to speak to them or listen to them. Obama is, by far, the most astute politician ever. Somehow, he understands, and I'm so glad that you do too.

NO granny - YOU'LL NEVER "GET IT"...

Whoever said bigotry was acceptable? The OP certainly gets it. Exclusion does not work and intensifies differences. An anti-gay bigot should live in a world of gays for a year. A racist bigot should live in a black community for a year. Bring them in and treat them well. They will come to understand that their fear and hatred are groundless. They'll learn that the people they fear are just people.

Edit: Hatred against hatred creates more hatred.

n/t

I've read many replies in the thread, and I see both sides of the issue. As a non believer in God, these prayers have no meaning to me. I do think Obama could have made a wiser choice, But no one is perfect.

Peace to all of you.