A question to those fighting in the trenches for Gay Civil Rights.....

What are your ultimate goals,
and what are your battle plans to achieving such?

in addition to anyone who apologizes for them.

I've been working on marriage equality in Vermont for over 10 years, and rhetoric such as yours doesn't help at all. It's no substitute for the plain old hard work of educating legislators and making the case in a calm way that doesn't piss people off who could be allied with you.

How do you propose either changing this (and it needs to be changed)
so that it is the courts that decide, not propositions?

And if you can't change it, how to you sway some in the majority in order to
gain those rights?

I'm hoping that your answer is not to simply to kick ass.....
cause I'm not sure if that will get you what you should have.

in order to marginalize the bigots and the bullies?

Because clearly, it appears that the bigots and the bullies
are getting their way.

...and give them no attention or credibility.

You don't suck up to them or put them in a place of honor ~ as so many hangers-on do at school.

and there are more of them then they are of us,
why would things change if they are the ones that make the rules?

We can win over his misguided followers by being who we are, standing for what we do ~ not by glorifying their hateful leader.

So we can win over Rick Warren's misguided followers how? By standing up and doing what?

...on behalf of rights for all ~ and speaking out against hatefulness wherever we encounter it.

How long with this plan take? Any ideas? Will it take another generation, or can it be achieved relatively soon?

what won't help?

imo you'll make excuses for ANYTHING Obama does. I believe it's up to Barack's supporters to hold his feet to the fire when he's playing politics in a disgusting way.

But my questions in this OP are not unreasonable.

Rick Warren wasn't who I had in mind to do the invocation at the inaugural,
but since I don't claim to have all of the answers,
I don't know for sure that it is the wrong thing to do.

So Yes, you are correct....I support my President for the time being,
although I have made my opinion known to him.

That's what he stated he wanted us to do,
stay involved and speak our minds.

That's a start.

or is this it?

hate churches on Sunday mornings. Walk into their sanctuaries, carrying signs and wearing buttons. Hold silent protests 24/7 outisde the homes of Rick Warren and other hate preachers. Boycott businesses owned by Mormons, Southern Baptists and others who preach hate.

And Obama should uninvite Warren.

So I will ask you again....what is the ultimate goal?

What you are stating bears some resemblance to the Civil Rights movement of the 60s.
However, is there a problem in that unlike the 60s, when it was the court that decided,
what we now have is the voters, the majority, who decides?

I think if that would have been the case in the 60s, Civil Rights would not have been won
in the same way.

that ain't gonna work.

but i know that is the wrong approach.

i don't pretend to know how to deal with homophobes, or ideologues of any sort, but sinking to their level doesn't do anything to help GLBTs. "scared straight" didn't work, i doubt "scared gay" will either. i realize that nobody is trying to turn anybody gay, my point is many of the GLBT community has been very harsh and reactionary in their criticism of Obama's pick of Warren.

FWIW i'm not GLBT, but fully support the cause, but not always the methods chosen by some.

Gays should be no more quiet than blacks were. Oh, and whites said the same things about blacks at the time. They were wrong then, you are wrong now.

court case rulings could be overturned.

White voters weren't asked to give minorities their rights via the ballot box,
instead they were told how it was going to be regardless of their opinion.

If that was the case then as it is today, that AAs needed a majority to get achieve their goals, I'm not sure if the exact same tatics would have been used then.

And voters need to know that they have hurt real human beings. And those human beings are angry!

i said using the same bully tactics they use will not work.

...in any serious way.

But hey, good "plan" - good luck with that.

Well, I think your question is great,
but it is not the only question that can be asked.
I do not believe my question to be irrelevant, nor unreasonable.

Battle plan?

Localized, grassroots efforts that involve community education.

Getting more LGBT Americans elected to office.

Volunteering my time to LGBT organizations, if not full-time employment at one (I've interviewed at many over the past few years).

Organize and/or attend protests and rallies.

and so I ask, in stating that we involve ourselves in community education,
how is that done? Is this the same as outreach to the persuadables.....
and if so, what are the mechanics suggested that may be successful?

Attend town hall meetings with your local, state and national representatives.

and being able to communicate to them a point of view?

To change opinions on Proposition 6 (the "Briggs Initiative"), 30 years ago.

Too many people also forget to write letters, call, or email their local, state and national representatives. And those are the ones who actually know the names of their officials.

Internet forums are definitely a good tool for organizing and hashing out ideas, but unfortunately too many think that activism starts and ends right here.

My hope would be that if most of people around here spent even a quarter of their time and energy on trying to convey the same message to their community, we might actually then have the ability to get something done.

Unfortunately, we don't seem to have many allies that are committed enough to give more than lip service to the cause of equality.

What I have found is this: there are a lot of people (both politicians and ordinary people) who oppose full marriage equality for gays. Some progressives admire/are friends with/are related to these people, and said progressives don't WANT to have to admit that their pet politician/friend/family member is a homophobic bigot, because that would be emotionally and intellectually painful. Therefore, said progressives just cannot bring themselves to fully commit to the cause of equality. They have an emotional stake in maintaining the false status-quo that not ALL opponents of gay marriage are homophobic bigots.

When we, as progressives, can FINALLY embrace the painful reality that there is NO SUCH THING as an excuse for opposing equality that ISN'T rooted in bigotry and homophobia...then, and only then, will we be united enough to get something done.

We gay people can't even seem to win over our OWN "side"--how can we then be expected to win over the side that opposes us to the core of their souls?

But my question deals more with how do we work on solving those problems that you so eloquently point out?

We take a leaf from Dr. King's book and start marching, boycotting, descending en masse on Washington, D.C., and staging acts of civil disobedience on a widespread scale. Our allies would help by protesting the marriage industry, and refusing to GET married until marriage is equal for all--kind of like people refused to join clubs and organizations that weren't open to all races. That wouldn't have worked if only black people had done it, but with white allies taking THEIR dollars away from these businesses, the business owners wised up in a hurry and changed their policies.

The best thing to do is to hit them hard in two key areas--disrupt their pleasant, insulated lives with loud protests and constant marching, and hit them in their wallets.

of the minority in their hands? this will change their minds?

Well certainly, it might work.

Difference of course with today and back in the days of the Civil Rights marches and such.....White people weren't then asked to go to the ballot box and rescind the rights of Blacks via propositions and such.

My point is that we can employ what was employed back at that time....but the circumstances on the ground are not the same. Back then, the majority did not have the right to overturn court decisions.

its important to speak to the progressives first and try to clear the air about any misconceptions they may have. I think that many people who still hold these beliefs are afraid to discuss them for fear of backlash.

If instead we engage them and be willing to listen to their concerns instead of blasting them as bigots, the odds are much greater that they will learn something about equality.

It is sad that the gay community has to "make its case" for equal rights even within the democratic party. but this is the painful reality that we must face as a group. The reality is that the case must be made and we must convince people by appealing to their better nature rather than creating fear and intellectual avoidance.

So that plan should be:
Recognize the need to solidify the base.
work towards that goal.
Allow this greater base to reach the edges that they touch.
support them in their efforts.