The fall of 2008 will be remembered by historians for two major reasons. One is the election of Barack Obama. The other is the moment when "gay rights" began to be recognized as "human rights" by a majority of Americans.

This is a momentous historical time. People all over the country are buzzing about Prop 8, Rick Warren, gay marriage, civil unions, gay rights, Stonewall, homosexuals, GLBTQ - what's the Q mean?, the role of religion, and everything else involving gay folks. These discussions used to be relegated to difficult conversations or simply ignored by most Americans.

Ready or not, it's happening now.

This is a moment in history. You are either on the right side of history or not. You are either part of the movement or you're in the way or you're ignoring it. Those on the right side of history will be able to recall with joy their part in it. Those opposing or ignoring it will probably have to make something up to explain to their grandchildren.

It's here. It's now.

Every 'wedge' issue that goes down in flames brings us closer to solidarity

Excellent post.

:thumbsup:

I know a window of opportunity when I see one and this is one. It might not be the one that people would have chosen as their highest priority, but it's here.

Taking on the Pharma/Insurance Industrial Congressional Complex will be a big one.

Why is it so difficult?

... instead of waiting for their grandchildren to do it for them.

And we should stop dumping our debt on them, too.

though you're quite possibly correct.

This is what political scientists call "a window of opportunity." When they open they need to be grabbed, because they don't come around very often.

There is evidence that things are shifting in terms of public opinion, with one "change" will come more!

Gay civil rights justice is over due.

4-8 years from now will be a very different world in terms of how people view GLBT rights than today.

starts, which for some strange reason, some DUers have taken up as their cause.

Even while people were supporting FDR for the New Deal, they were opposing him for attempting to Pack the Courts.

Some of us can hold more than one idea in our heads, you know.

Yawn.

You know what Twain said: "Better to be thought a fool and keep one's mouth shut, then open it and remove all doubt."

It must be my teacher instincts that want to clear up these little factual discrepancies.

Appeal to Consequences of a Belief is also a logical fallacy.

Just trying to help.

double yawn.

That's remarkably honest of you to say that. I'm glad you admit that to yourself. And I also agree, with your decision to "Go take a nap."

Try to get some sleep, sweet cheeks.

I don't get it. Just stay away if they bore you so.

were out of campaign mode and so are they! Great news.

:eyes:

How many times do you have to be wrong before you begin to question yourself?

as his allies showed him a balanced budget was a bad idea.

And Join the Impact is getting a lot of credit for their grassroots organizing efforts right after the election.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/12/on-transition-website-obama-promises.html

>>One consequence of the Rick Warren controversy is that Obama may now be under a greater amount of pressure from Democrats to repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell, to pass ENDA, and to expand hate crimes statutes, and to do all of the above relatively quickly. As we have pointed out before, large majorities of the public are in line with the Obama position on all three issues. If Obama is not willing to expend the relatively modest amount of political capital required on those, then one can reasonably anticipate that he won't be willing to touch more controversial subject areas like adoption or civil unions.<<

Folks will look back and say: "Why was it that they had their rights taken away to start with? And if the government can deny rights to them, then they could deny rights to me?"

It's gonna happen, sooner, rather than later.

:thumbsup::hi:

:kick:

I believe this is all true!

Eyes are opening.

Odd I was making a similar point to my 18 year old daughter the yesterday as she witnessed me typing in heated argument here on DU. The Castro in San Francisco is her 'hood and what is "normal" for her is, tragically, not so normal most everywhere else. She has a history of activism but we discussed the importance of standing up to be counted NOW and to work a little harder to ensure that that which she understands as a matter of course becomes closer to reality in every neighborhood and community.

:)

Dude, I have missed you and was worried about you too.
It's so good to see you.

:hug:

:kick:

Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, yardwork.:thumbsup:

There is something in the air.

We have a gay couple as neighbors, and I told my son that I'm hoping we'll be able to attend their wedding soon. I said that I think the country is rapidly changing, and with Obama's election diversity is being quickly embraced. Also, the passage of Prop 8 in California was the catalyst for bring the issue to the public's attention in a way that just hasn't happened before.

I'm thinking the states opposing gay marriage will fall like dominoes. It's really time for everyone to be able to marry the person they love.

It just takes a little humanity and kindess for all of us to see that we are all just people, human beings and some are even fortunate enough to love. :hi:

I've asked a few times and I never get an answer.

Which has lots of meanings. Because it used to be an insult, it can be a self-deprecating phrase, like the way black people use the "N word". Or it can be a catch all phrase that can refer to all gays, lesbians, bis, and trans people. But it can also have the more specific meaning of people who don't fit any gender stereotypes, like "gender queer."

of the terms.

Works for me!

:toast:

Edited to add: "Recommended"

Gay civil rights have been moved front and center on the transition team web site.


http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/12/on-transition-website-obama-promises.html

>>

By contrast, the Change.gov website includes a section addressed explicitly to the gay community, and it covers not only ENDA and hate crimes, but also promises Obama's support for the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, an expansion of adoption rights for gay couples, his backing of "full civil unions that give same-sex couples legal rights and privileges equal to those of married couples", and his opposition to a Constitutional ban on same-sex marriage.


One consequence of the Rick Warren controversy is that Obama may now be under a greater amount of pressure from Democrats to repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell, to pass ENDA, and to expand hate crimes statutes, and to do all of the above relatively quickly. As we have pointed out before, large majorities of the public are in line with the Obama position on all three issues. If Obama is not willing to expend the relatively modest amount of political capital required on those, then one can reasonably anticipate that he won't be willing to touch more controversial subject areas like adoption or civil unions.<<

ya never know what Nate's going to post.

I was glad to see it.

:toast:

it's a rising tide of voices demanding to be heard and not content to wander in the darkness any longer.
I'm glad to be here with you. :hug:

Happy New Year, to you and yours.

:grouphug:

That's a good sign. I say keep up the good fight, and give them a chance.

We can do both. :hi:

It is about time.

One more area of justice to be fought for:

I went to sea a total of 4 times when I was in.

It really was painful knowing that I was leaving my boyfriend and that he was nowhere around while all my shipmates had their girlfriends/wives/children there to say goodbye.

And I was in well before DADT.

I'm tired of fighting. I'm tired of protesting. I'm tired of ripping my elected reps a new asshole.

I've been fighting for gay rights and AIDS awareness/cure for over 15 years. I'm tired. I'm so used to being called a 'faggot' that I don't even hear the word anymore.

I can only hope you're right, but my sense of history combined with the bigoted attitude in this country makes me very, very skeptical.

That's all we can do, keep working, keep educating ourselves and others.

I am in favor of acknowledging even our little victories and progress, they add up to big ones.

Thank you for all your hard work (((dweeb))).

K and R.

Great post, and I agree with you.

Thanks, yardwork.

And so do experts.

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/p ... ;109/2/339

POLICY STATEMENT

PEDIATRICS Vol. 109 No. 2 February 2002, pp. 339-340

AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
Coparent or Second-Parent Adoption by Same-Sex Parents
Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health

ABSTRACT

Children who are born to or adopted by 1 member of a same-sex couple deserve the security of 2 legally recognized parents. Therefore, the American Academy of Pediatrics supports legislative and legal efforts to provide the possibility of adoption of the child by the second parent or coparent in these families.

Children deserve to know that their relationships with both of their parents are stable and legally recognized. This applies to all children, whether their parents are of the same or opposite sex. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual.1–9 When 2 adults participate in parenting a child, they and the child deserve the serenity that comes with legal recognition.

Children born or adopted into families headed by partners who are of the same sex usually have only 1 biologic or adoptive legal parent. The other partner in a parental role is called the "coparent" or "second parent." Because these families and children need the permanence and security that are provided by having 2 fully sanctioned and legally defined parents, the Academy supports the legal adoption of children by coparents or second parents. Denying legal parent status through adoption to coparents or second parents prevents these children from enjoying the psychologic and legal security that comes from having 2 willing, capable, and loving parents.

........


Pediatrics. 2002 Feb;109(2):341-4. Links
Technical report: coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents.Perrin EC; Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.

Technical report: coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents.Perrin EC; Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health.
A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with 1 or 2 gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children's optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes.


........

Child Dev. 2004 Nov-Dec;75(6):1886-98.
Psychosocial adjustment, school outcomes, and romantic relationships of adolescents with same-sex parents.Wainright JL, Russell ST, Patterson CJ.
Department of Psychology, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA, USA.

This study examined associations among family type (same-sex vs. opposite-sex parents); family and relationship variables; and the psychosocial adjustment, school outcomes, and romantic attractions and behaviors of adolescents. Participants included 44 12- to 18-year-old adolescents parented by same-sex couples and 44 same-aged adolescents parented by opposite-sex couples, matched on demographic characteristics and drawn from a national sample. Normative analyses indicated that, on measures of psychosocial adjustment and school outcomes, adolescents were functioning well, and their adjustment was not generally associated with family type. Assessments of romantic relationships and sexual behavior were not associated with family type. Regardless of family type, adolescents whose parents described closer relationships with them reported better school adjustment.


........

J Dev Behav Pediatr. 2005 Jun;26(3):224-40.
Lesbian mothers, gay fathers, and their children: a review.Tasker F.
School of Psychology, Birkbeck College University of London, London WC1E 7HX, UK. f.tasker@bbk.ac.uk

There is a variety of families headed by a lesbian or gay male parent or same-sex couple. Findings from research suggest that children with lesbian or gay parents are comparable with children with heterosexual parents on key psychosocial developmental outcomes. In many ways, children of lesbian or gay parents have similar experiences of family life compared with children in heterosexual families. Some special considerations apply to the context of lesbian and gay parenting: variation in family forms, children's awareness of lesbian and gay relationships, heterosexism, and homophobia. These issues have important implications for managing clinical work with children of lesbian mothers or gay fathers.

.........


Fam Psychol. 2006 Sep;20(3):526-30.
Delinquency, victimization, and substance use among adolescents with female same-sex parents.Wainright JL, Patterson CJ.
Department of Psychology, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA 22904, USA.

The question of whether parental sexual orientation has an impact on human development has important implications for psychological theories and for legal policy. This study examined associations among family type (same-sex vs. different-sex parents), family and relationship variables, substance use, delinquency, and victimization of adolescents. Participants included 44 adolescents living with female same-sex couples and 44 adolescents living with different-sex couples, matched on demographic characteristics and drawn from a national sample. Analyses indicated that adolescents were functioning well and that their adjustment was not associated with family type. Adolescents whose parents described closer relationships with them reported less delinquent behavior and substance use, suggesting that the quality of parent-adolescent relationships better predicts adolescent outcomes than does family type. Copyright (c) 2006 APA, all rights reserved.


......

Dev Psychol. 2008 Jan;44(1):117-26.
Peer relations among adolescents with female same-sex parents.Wainright JL, Patterson CJ.
Department of Psychology, P.O. Box 400400, University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA 22904, USA.

This study examined associations among family type (same-sex vs. opposite-sex parents), adolescent gender, family and relationship variables, and the peer relations of adolescents. Participants included 44 adolescents parented by same-sex female couples and 44 adolescents parented by opposite-sex couples, matched on demographic characteristics and drawn from a national sample. On both self-reported and peer-reported measures of relations with peers, adolescents were functioning well, and the quality of their peer relations was not associated with family type. Regardless of family type, adolescents whose parents described closer relationships with them reported higher quality peer relations and more friends in school and were rated as more central in their friendship networks. Copyright (c) 2008 APA.
......

I hope you are right. We just came back from seeing Milk. I'm optimistic about this, and at the same time discouraged because I think that's what folks were believing back three decades ago. I'm glad the movie is out at the same time as all this - though I wish it had come out a few months before the vote.

Posted it briefly, among other observations, in one of the numerous Rick Warren threads, where it was shot down and the ignored.

In a way, it reminds me of FDR, and that oft-quoted 'make me', in regards to doing things certain groups wanted him to do. I personally believe Obama wants to do this, but needed us to "force him" to do it. Not saying this was the intention, but the controversy over Rick Warren gives him political cover for it - "oh, he has to do it, to make the gay rights people happy".

We just have to keep up the pressure and be smart about it.

Recommended

:thumbsup:

I don't think I noticed your particular post, but many other DUers have been talking about being "on the right side of history."

I doubt that Obama did this on purpose and I personally think that he wishes that it would go away. I don't think that he planned on dealing with gay rights as one of his priorities. However, it's happening.

My mom taught me that when the priest from our parish in Florida punished a boy in my school because his friend was "a queer".

My mom is now 92, will be 93 in January.

We were never allowed to speak badly of anyone because of their "differences". Only if their character warranted it. Needless to say, she didn't like our priest much!

except one hand is tied behind our backs legally.

after 8 years of fighting Shrub and his minions!

Love does, eventually, conquer - and that is what I have for all my fellow beings!

:thumbsup:

:-)

:hugs:

To say you're either on the right or wrong side is not, IMO the best way to look at it. To be a united and more tolerant country, we can't come at things with an "either or" attitude. That's not how you get people to change their minds. Telling others "If you're not with us, then you're nothing" only fuel the ignorance and hate and prevents change.

As for people who are on "your side", there actually are so many that are being perceived as against your side, simply because they handle the issue differently than you. Even if they have the same goal as you, they are treated like enemies here for expressing a different way of handling this fight.

That's not right.

I hope the day comes soon for equal rights for ALL to prevail, but IMO there are so many less destructive and divisive ways to go about this change.

Believe what you wish. Time will tell.

I don't condone people who discriminate against anyone, but I'm also open minded enough to know that things are NEVER black or white on any issue or any one person's opinion. You can't come at people and say "you're either with me or against me!" and expect them to go "oh ok, I'm with you!" People aren't sheep. WE all have our own ideas, opinions and values and just because some of them don't match yours 100%, doesn't mean we don't want the same thing in the end. So stop the "either or" battle cry, it's only hurts the cause.

But it's also misunderstanding my point as well. I don't condone discrimination, even a little, but I am aware of it's existence and to what levels it exists in certain people. You can't write everyone off into 2 distinct categories and just be done with it. That's not life. Many people out there are flawed but deep down not evil people. They are just misinformed and ignorant. And those people who have a good heart inside but have confused values due to their culture or upbringing or church influence, they deserve to be given the same respect you demand from them. It's only when you accept that they believe what they believe because of misinformation, that is when you can change their minds though civil discussion and disagreement.

Yelling at someone because they voted yes on prop 8 or tell you that being gay is wrong, is not going to get your point across to them. It only strengthens their resolve in their belief. People are more opt to respond to positivity, not negativity.

Simply put, I hate that so many people are intolerant in this world, but I know their minds wont be changed by calling them names.

You have a right to your opinion, even if it is an over statement.

You can have ideas, opinions and values that affect MY equality, but if they don't support the idea that I should have the same rights as you, then you are WRONG. Period.

Can you provide an example of how you could have a different opinion about this issue but want the same thing? How is that possible? Either we're equal or we are not.

The GLBT cvil rights movement promises to be a paradigm-shifting sea change in American politics. you're right: people are buzzing about this, and buzzes lead to howls, and I'm happy to throw MY howl, my hat, my support, my energy with those who will be on the right side of history when the dust clears.

You are admired, my friend. Keep it up. :thumbsup:

:)

:-)

I'm still young and I fully expect to live to see the day that everyone will be embarrassed that they didn't give equal rights to GLBT couples.

Asshole Warren will be laughed at for his demented views on gays. Luckily, we have the internet to capture these "debates" forever.

This is truly a time for "lead, follow, or get out of the way." Young people rock!

We'll never have rights if we don't fight for them.

...

:kick:

This straight person wants to see the GLBT have that opportunity - for marriage, survivorship rights, adoption, and hope I see it in my lifetime. I saw too many others suffer...


But my major premise -- If Leona Helmsley could leave 13 million to her dog without much challenge, then we all should have that right.

And I totally agree. Although it is frustrating to see many of my fellow Americans enjoying civil rights that I do not have, as a gay man, I feel very fortunate to be alive at this moment in time. While the pace of change can be frustratingly slow, we are on the cusp of acheiving great things for our country. Not only for ourselves, but for future generations as well.

K&R

Here's to being on the right side of history. Obama didn't expect this, but he has it now.

"Quiet women rarely make history". You can replace "women" with "people". Prop 8 and Warren have created a lot of discussion, and brought the idea to many who never gave it much thought before. Like some have said, a door has opened, at least a bit. Time to stick our foot in it.

8 years of hell and two stolen elections , no one listened to the people and thousands died for lies and money. History = worst president of all time.

The midterms 2006 =6 for 06 and we got some crappy min wage instead of ending the Iraq occupation and began two years of campaigns for 2008 while the people hired to be senators were out on the campaign trail.

I count on nothing and admire no politician . Their goal is a personal goal of extreme motivation and millions of dollars spent to get there.

It will take the people to make change and history not some political highly motivated freak with a bag of empty promises.

All the protests did nothing and will never do a thing even with all the best of intentions and efforts because we are just the people not the in crowd, when will people EVER get this through their heads?

History my ass. People have been fighting for civil rights for generations , don't see we are any better off now, in fact things are worse.

Most of the nations of the world hate us and want to kill us, we can't make or sell anything, our citizens are starving or dying of preventable diseases, and we're all losing our homes, but sure, gay rights are far more important than those little bits of trivia.

we seemed to have handled multiple issues in the 60s. AA civil rights, women's rights, free speech rights, ending the war, anti-nuke, the environment, walking, chewing gum...

:popcorn:

Giving equal rights to all of our citizens makes us a model for the world.
Changing workplace laws can bring thousands of ideas "out of the closet", without fear that the idea would be rejected as "being too gay" (actually happened to me).
Changing the way we look at people and disease, where people can be told about condoms and safe sex, means that the scourge of Africa can be fought with logic, not religion.

I got nothing for home foreclosure, though.

but I am glad to know that it finally occurred to you that things were screwed after it began to hit home. We have known all along that things were screwed up!

The other issues require the full strength of the POTUS - in coming.

We can work on the grass roots issues much easier than world poverty, war and the global economy.

It's not a complicated thing. It's not difficult to solve, like global warming and poverty. It doesn't require complex negotiations like ending war.

Just put down the bigotry. Easy. Problem solved.

or more important than those things over the long arc of history.

*kick*

Black. Time for ALL to be included as full citizens of the US.