K&R is you are THRILLED to see so many on DU put TRUTH over Party

Frankly, I am really impressed with a LOT of people here. I am heartened by the posts from so many who are watching the current political events so closely, and speaking out against things they know do not serve the American citizenry. I was very worried after the election that too many would see Obama as a Panacea rather then a politician to be pressured to do the right thing. And, yes, while there is some blind faith on the board, going by the K&Rs of many truth, integrity, and policy analyst posts, there are many whom are fighting the good fight.

And, this is good. Very good. It means that there are the seeds for a true movement. We know this is a battle of corporate giants vs THE PEOPLE. The battle for health care not health insurance. The battle for the integrity of the country and our ability to take responsibility as a people. The battle to represent the majority versus the minority.

This is the time we must be calling, writing, showing up, in HUGE numbers. To make our voices ring louder then corporate dollars. Not to 'fight' Obama, but to HELP him. To give him NO political cover to make the wrong choice. What a gift....A population that exerts the democratic voice without abash. A active group of people to help explain to the country why we need to do the right thing.

Let the REAL WORK, BEGIN!

That may seem like a little thing to some, but I think it's important.

K&R if you love attention whores.

Jeebus.

and the OP is sickening- and that's not because I don't think Obama shouldn't be criticized.

:eyes:

Sheesh. I'm glad I had a light dinner.

for outright nastiness as the "Debbie Downer Award Winner"®


that might be your thing - but one thing that PE Obama is about is HOPE - that's a lot of the reason that he won. There were other candidates with more experience, better ideas, or more organization at the onset of the race for the nomination - but he won because of people having the audacity to think we can make a difference by organizing TOGETHER and overpowering the powers that be - I see this person's post as one proclaiming joy that so many are exerting honest discussion about some of the decisions made so far, and hope that it will continue - call it what you will - it won't slow anyone down. There's plenty of "ignored" comments responding to you.


I'm gonna guess they're in concurrence with your childish fucking whores comment.

just gushes, "K&R if you think we're great!"

:yoiks:

This post made me finally lose the last bit of respect I had for the O/P who's been a real stick-in-the-mud lately anyway.

when it meeds to be said. I praise those that defend the civil rights of ALL Americans no matter what their gender or orientation.

still here and are happy that we've won the white house and are willing to work together to make this administration work.

:toast:

best self-laudatory spam in reply to a self-laudatory OP. WTG!

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Do so many believe that everything they believe is the absolute truth and everyone else is wrong? I am not so sure such an attitude is one of which to be proud.

honest, and grounded in solid logic and facts. The Party should exist in the service of truth and ideas, not the other way around.

Arrogant grumpy people that refuse to look at alternative viewpoints grasping for attention.

Especially since the discussion forum guidelines state that as a rule: Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.


How dare us come to DU and expect to engage in a little positive discussion about our new democratic president who we all seemed so excited about prior to the election.

what is wrong with us?



:sarcasm:

Because your logic is that since it's the Democratic Underground, then all Democrats are to always be praised, not criticized, by DU members.

There is nothing wrong with having some positive discussion about Obama. There's a lot of good stuff to be said about him. However, that expectation also seems to carry along the feeling that there's something wrong with holding his feet to the fire to make the right changes in this country.

Yes, he has already disappointed me, but I will give him the benefit of the doubt because he seems to be doing so many fucking things right so far. And yes, I am comparing him to Bush. I'll admit, the Warren thing almost did me in, but I know that there will be very visible protests against his invocation on 1/20 which will make me proud.

This has indeed been a long, national nightmare and I'm going to give President Obama a little leeway, knowing 100% for sure that he isn't going to even come close to emulating the Bush fiasco.

Bush is trying to polish his giant, stinking turd of a Presidency, but it will not work. Bush will go down in history as the WORST PRESIDENT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS EVER SPAWNED. "BUSH" will replace "FUCK" as the most vulgar word ever uttered. Mark my words.

President Obama has a plan that must be implemented as a whole. If people start picking away at their little pet issues, the plan will be hamstrung and we all loose.

We need to be DEMOCRATS and hammer the Republicans, not ourselves.

Mine involves facts. Yours apparently encompasses whims, supposition, hearsay, and opinion.

just plain but disguised ignorance on certain subject matters, pressure to comply with the naysaying Current Kool Kids, and smelly brain farts.

This has got to be the saddest post ever made on the internets.

if you do that, they will have nothing to discuss with you.

if you do that, they will have nothing to discuss with you.

if you do that, they will have nothing to discuss with you.

I think that the only promise for the future of the democratic party is the truth that is found at the grass roots level, including many people who participate on DU. And I think that the greatest stumbling block to our future is that so many democrats at the state and national level have turned their backs on the truth, and embraced lies for personal gain.

here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x231328

I want to say again what I heard in the chainsaw shop. Of all places, I was shocked to hear this. The man working there had come here from Mexico as a child, to escape poverty. He and I discussed this issue of truth and greed. To conclude he said, "I would rather have a friend than a hundred dollar bill".

It was perhaps the most powerful statement I had ever heard.

And I want to add that I believe the truth is more often than not suppressed and ignored because of desire for comfort. We don't want to hit the streets in protest. We don't take the time to write or call Congress. We're afraid to go on strike. We don't take the time to discover the truth. All because we are threatened. Here is my example. People are still being injured, killed, at the very least terrified, in Iraq. And we are not demanding that it stop. But, if somehow our cars were taken from us, we would all be in massive protestation, young, old, sick. There is no doubtt whatsoever that is true. And what does it tell you?

Others may disagree with your point of view here, but it is sad that they try to discredit it and you with a lot of ugly posts. I don't know how you could have said it more graciously. I think that you have the right to see things this way and express that without being attacked - as opposed to your ideas being attacked. If people disagree with your view, let them debate that.

Obviously, you are saying that people are putting truth over party, as they see the truth, not that all must see things the same way. I think it is likely that are some who are not doing that - whatever they may think the truth is - and instead are placing some sport of misguided and shallow sense of loyalty over what they know in their hearts to be true. That, I imagine, is where a lot of the anger and hostility is coming from because it would be very difficult to reconcile that sort of loyalty above all with what is right in plain view.

Obama does need truthful criticism.
Claiming that liberals aren't represented in the cabinet isn't truthful.
A lot of other equally pessimistic analysis I see here isn't truthful either. People should think about crying wolf too many times about Obama moving right. No one will take them seriously when it counts.

If you get enough people from around the globe (which this site does) you get a vastly different defintion of where liberal begins.
I live in Korea (before that Prague and prior the US)
A moderate-liberal in Korea is not a liberal in the Czech Rep. A moderate-liberal in the Czech Rep is fairly leftist in Korea.
A moderately liberal person here is center-slightly right in the US

Obama's cabinet is liberal (to a point), but it is also fairly corporatist and full of DC insiders -- for good or ill.

Part of the process in selecting a cainet is to pick people to advance the President's agenda.
Obama has chosen these people to do so.

When FDR chose Joe Kennedy to oversee matters relating to business he was reminded (rightfully so) that "Joe Kennedy is a crooked bastard."
To which FDR responded (according to the story), "Good. Then he'll recognize crooked behavior when he sees it."
For the most part Kennedy did a good job of helping to advance FDR's programs.

In addition, there are many people who post here.
You're going to get a lot of criticism, as well, a lot of positive responses.
And a lot of repetitive posts.
Emotional posts often get more attention than cerebral one's because emotional posts are shorter and evoke passion.
Cerebral require the readers undivided attention and can be quite lengthy.

Everything he does is going to get vetted, just because of the sheer numbers of people and the wide array of opinions held by people here.

I have been critical of five things Obama has done and have posted (at times ad naseum) my opinion on:
1. FISA
2. Rick Warren
3. Sanjay Gupta (though I've only posted 2x I think and have moved on)
4. Gov Kaine (I sent out enough e-mails and made enough calls that I got an e-mail -- bulk generated -- from the Obama people and from my Congressman assuring me that Kaine is going to continue the 50 state strategy.
5. Tom Daschle as Sec of HHS. He was a crappy, milquetoast majority leader and I see nothing that has changed in his demeanor. His attempts at bipartisan legislation always seemed to be to the benefit of republikkans.

At the same time, I have commented on posts and/or recommended posts that were favorable to Obama:
1. HRC as Sec of State. The decision to give her the post has been met very positively here in Asia and in many parts of Europe.
2. Panetta as Dir of the CIA as I see nothing that necessarily disqualifies the man to do the job.
3. The way he has dealt with the situation in Gaza. He isn't the President yet and he does have an obligation not to act like he is publicly. Privately is a different matter. I believe they're doing stuff behind the scenes to try and help resolve the situation.
4. And the occassion thread that is a general support of Obama as the next Pres.

I'm a cynic and suspicious of government.
He needs to be criticized when he's wrong.
He also needs to be supported when he's right.

I call my congressman and my Senator (Illinois voter so right now just 1) to express my displeasure, but I also call to let them know I support decisions they make.
I think they're more likely to listen if you do -- my home town is very small so when I call my HR and give them my zip code they know who I am -- I guess I'm the only caller from my area.

Sorry this was so long and rambling, but I do agree with you.
I just think terms like liberal and conservative are at times difficult to define because what is liberal in one place isn't necessarily liberal in another. Same with conservative

"He needs to be criticized when he's wrong.
He also needs to be supported when he's right."

I have been saying this ad naseum for some time now. Unfortunately, there is too often an overabundance of the former and (as I see it) almost willful neglect of the latter around here. We need to make our voices heard when we're happy as well as when we're upset - how else will they know when we think they're doing a good job? We make ourselves damn well heard when we're pissed, we should do the same when we're thrilled.

If anger is all they hear, we run the risk of being written off as 'the ever-angry left'. And if that happens, there is a good chance they might stop listening.

I don't know much about Obama's AG designate. He seems like a good choice and the Republicans are gunning for him. If anyone is trying to muster up support among the netroots at DU, I haven't seen it. Maybe people have been busy opposing the bad for so long that they forgot the importance of supporting the good too.

to apologize for the length of that post.

And of course there are people who will always define liberal to the left of anything Obama could ever realistically accomplish.

I just expected to see more people who are part of the solution in his cabinet, as opposed to part of the problem (DLC'ers, neocons, Wall Street Whores, etc.)

Those are people who have no interest in fixing what is wrong with this country, because they ARE what's wrong with this country.

I don't have blind allegiance to the point of never talking about the not-so-good things he's done so far (there's several) and they should be discussed - fraudulent and perverted Warren was an absolutely bad pick to invite to OUR inauguration (PE Obama is working as a paid employee to the taxpayers who elected him - it's insulting to have an unabashed bigot at the party as a 'minister'.

I appreciate hearty discussion about the bad choices, pro AND con, but it's not helpful when someone says, "Obama haters", thanks for calling everyone cute in the thread though - too bad your post isn't.

he's always a dick like that.

Obama is not above examination/reproach/criticism.

The most recent glaring example of the need for criticizing Obama:

Obama Calls for 'Grand Bargain' on Economy: 'Everybody's Going to Have to Give'
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3684147&mesg_id=3684147



Now, how in the fuck can he say that?

He is either telling us that either as little as a few months ago, he really HAD NO INKLING how severe this financial crisis is (I've known for at least a year now) OR he outright lied during his campaign in order to win the election.

Which of these two things makes you feel better?

:kick: & R for truth!

To do otherwise would make one the same as the Bush followers we've complained about for years.

:rofl:

I don't want him on the internet, I want him doing his job

K&R is you are THRILLED to see so many on DU put dogmatic ideology over Party

in the White House.

Removing barriers to sending millions of jobs out of the country
Massively deregulating banks (and handing the signing pen to the CEO of CitiBank)
"The era of big government is over"
Collecting hundreds of millions in "speaking fees" from the people he helped
With a side order of, when governor, allowing a severely brain damaged man to be executed

Or do you deny that the Clintons did these when they were in office?

Or are you arguing that outsourced torture etc. are Democratic values?

wow.

Yeah, of course you do.

Although outsourced torture is always wrong - pretty black and white. Amd accepting more than $100 million from people you helped while a public official is always wrong.

Wholesale deregulation of Wall Street, and wholesale elimination of trade barriers are absurd - look at the results, which were the been obvious consequences.

Remember, we're not discussing what is "right" and "wrong." We're discussing what Republican policies are and are not. And as of yet, you haven't made a case that all these things you dislike about Obama and his cabinet picks are "Republican." And I don't expect you will. In your world, Democrats are myths because they'll always fall short or what you believe they should be - which actually reveals a certain naivety on your part.

:evilgrin:

our displeasure at the possible appointment of Sanjay Gupta. This is one area where Obama must be willing to hear our point of view.

Health care will not improve if the changes are directed by the insurance industry and the pharmaceutical giants. Obama told us he would listen. I'm waiting. :eyes:

The only thing that will help this country is dealing with its realities, and not political pandering to politicians who wear the same label as you.

And his stimulus package probably won't do the job.

Nothing. Hmm, thought so.

Not all Republicans are scum of the Earth either...

Impressive.

Name 5 currently in office that aren't.

I just saw 5 minutes of George Stepp. talk about Israel-Gaza with his panel.

Friedman - nothing about the deaths in Gaza. Equalized the conflict.
Gingriech - proposed wiping out Gaza.
Peggy Noonan - proposed nothing.
Steph. - said nothing about the disproportionate death toll, the suffering.

We live in a Matrix of denial and fabrication.

This is one place where that bull shit doesn't get a free ride. There are others too but this
is a large forum where people speak out in behalf of what the party positions and policies ought
to be.

But I get upset when I see people here attacking his character because they don't like his policies, or acting like they were somehow deceived when he does something that he promised to do on the campaign trail. It's as if some people thought he was lying when he promised to put Republicans in his cabinet or talked about middle class tax cuts. Some people said they wouldn't have voted for him or wouldn't have donated if they had known he would choose Rick Warren to give the prayer at his inauguration, when everything he has said about reaching out to people of faith despite differences on social issues makes it no surprise to anyone who paid attention. That doesn't mean you can't disagree, but to act like you were deceived is disingenuous, because if any of these decisions surprise you you probably were not paying attention or figured he was just making empty campaign promises that he did not intend to keep.

There are a few things that are surprising, like what appears to be the snubbing of Howard Dean (which I think was probably just clumsiness rather than a deliberate snub, since Obama is said to have a good relationship with Dean and there is nothing to be gained politically by snubbing him). But for the most part, Obama has been doing exactly what he said he would do, and if you want to push him to be more progressive on certain issues, I'm all for that, but don't act like he deceived you because he didn't.

"It means that there are the seeds for a true movement. We know this is a battle of corporate giants vs THE PEOPLE. The battle for health care not health insurance. The battle for the integrity of the country and our ability to take responsibility as a people. The battle to represent the majority versus the minority."

Let us get it right this time. I for one believe PE Obama cannot know everything there is to know about everyone and everything there is about the people knocking on his door. It is our door now, not just his. When we find an objectionable person that we believe will harm and/or not further the movement you so justly described we must speak out or forever hold our disgust.

John Lennon - Power To The People

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wos-dDxpJlQ

has been talked about! :applause: K & R

That's fine, but who is going to be the one who decides what that truth is? You? Or maybe I should be the one who decides what is truth. For that matter, our party leaders probably believe that truth is on their side.

I'm all for constructive criticism. But I am not going to have the temerity to suggest that I am the only one who has the truth.

It is the utmost of hubris and arrogance to suggest that they do.

Or did you forget to add your sarcasm tag?

What exactly don't you agree with?

Do you disagree with advocating for gay rights, universal health care, a cease fire in Gaza, an economic plan that does not give a third in tax cuts to the wealthy?

Do you disagree with pressuring Obama to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Bush?

Do you disagree with pressuring Obama about ending the travesty in Afghanistan?

The whole point of democracy is the people working to create a system that works for them. It does not end with elections, it begins with them. It is interesting. If I write about policy, and advocating for change through better policy, most people on DU agree with me wholeheartedly. However, if I write about how Obama works against the policy that the majority of AMERICANS (not just progressives) want, many people take offense and defend Obama without any regard to the concerns brought up in the posts.

Political worship and political celebrity is dangerous. Sure, cheer and write letters of thanks when he does the right thing, and SPEAK OUT loudly and boldly when he goes astray.

...have a monopoly on "truth", and I've grown to be highly skeptical of anybody who would type that word in all caps as though it was a brand name.

What's going astray here is your writing ability. I will fight, fight and fight again to save the language I love! Without abash!

Obama wasn't my first OR second choice as a candidate and I actually threatened to "sit this one out," but in the end DID get on the band-wagon!

Hillary wasn't my choice either as I consider myself more to the left than many here. I'm still in a "wait and see" mode but am glad we elected the FIRST black POTUS and I hope this country is on it's way to healing the damage done by BUSHCO!!! I still worry that many Democrats in Congress aren't listening to our voices, so we MUST keep working for "we the people!"

it is amazing how many apologists there are here for unconscionable indications.

no text

So, it would be an exaggeration to say I'm "thrilled."

If Democrats were to be the party of truth and supporters of only the truth, that would be refreshing. Unfortunately some Democrats supported the liars too. Since both parties seem to be in support of the slaughter going on in Gaza I am a little confused about who is for or against the truth. If either party does not speak up in support of prosecuting Bush and Cheney and their crony war criminal friends then the truth doesn't matter and they are not good enough to kiss my ass!

:-)

:shrug:

:eyes:

:banghead:


We have to get our sea legs quick people or this is going to be a short trip.

your implications, at least

very thinly veiled as they may be

It was a means to deflate the over extended egos of certain DUers who fancy themselves to be amateur philosophers when in fact they've stated the obvious and made it sound extraordinary. Consequently, I call it as I see it. The fact is that this thread is a violent self-stroking of ones ego which provides no content and no new thought. The very idea that one's own beliefs, if tread against, will cause a movement within the whole of DU so as to hold Obama or the party accountable is laughable at best. We can't agree on anything since the primaries.

I see the underlying theme of this thread as being that there are principles to which many hold tightly, among those being justice and honesty. Blind faith, to use a suitable term, is no acceptable substitution.

Because it looks like somebody's the messiah one minute and a martyr the next.

:eyes:

"...without abash":wtf:

(and, it seems, a population that has a mindless blank check to mangle the English language)

:kick:

...so you don't bust your ass falling off that high horse whydontcha?