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freemarketer6 Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:31 AM
Original message
Nationalizing Life and Death
Does anyone here understand what this means? My wife and I would like to exit in dignity, so if this program will prevent that we would like to know about it. Actually, looking for some explanation here. Maybe, just getting too old or weary to understand it all anymore. TIA

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/03/nationalizing_life_and_death.html
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TheBigotBasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
1. An absolute pile of dung
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. How about corporatizing life and death?
Edited on Sun Mar-08-09 07:56 AM by etherealtruth
or .... Death for the uninsured and healthcare for those financially able to afford it?

Look at it this way .... the "government" has already chosen death for millions of Americans by refusing to provided a system in which basic healthcare needs can be met by millions of uninsured Americans.

On the other hand, for those fortunate enough to have insurance, life and death decisions are made by business folk looking to make an over all profit.

I have health insurance, my children have health insurance, my parents have health insurance .... I want to see every member of my society able to benefit from adequate health care.

It is important to note the "American Thinker " is a very conservative site ... one with an extremely skewed perspective where I would only expect to read drivel such as this.

edit to add: check out the list of world health care rankings, as Americans we should be ashamed of how poorly our system works http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
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freemarketer6 Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes. I agree with that. I think there should be some kind of
shared cost, though. What I would like to know is what is the real cost of medical care? Suppose Bob needs to have Procedure X done. What are the real costs of Procedure X, taking away ridiculous markups by providers of healthcare? Also, suppose instead of Procedure X, why can't Bob opt for Procedure Y, which may not be as perfect as X, nevertheless, will work. I have read stories about people who need something done, but having whatever done will wipe out their entire life's savings and some of their children's savings. Of what use are such procedures?... To anyone except the rich.
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etherealtruth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I think your questions ...
.... bolster the argument for a nationalized healthcare system. The obscene profits are being made by healthcare insurers and for profit healthcare systems (hospital systems). If you take out profit as the major (read sole)motivator most of the questions you have become moot.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
5. For one thing, your link goes to a RW leaning/topple-over site...
consider the source is essentially the 1st rule in getting to the "bottom" of things.

Where we stand right now, as far as health insurance/coverage/treatment go, is, for lack of a better word, horrific.

There are a myriad of reasons for this, but essentially, if you don't have insurance/private funding, you get sick and/or die. If you do have insurance, you are not actually paying for your treatment, a pool of people are, and many medical decisions are actually made by number crunchers as opposed to medical professionals. I've been in the medical field, I know the routine, "Your insurance company has refused to cover the procedure we've opted for. You can either have the procedure at cost to you, take a less expensive treatment, or basically, walk out the door".

I find it ironic that the site you got this come calls itself, "The American Thinker". Americans in general have always been thinkers and solvers, but when it comes to health care, we get stuck in a rut. The "British Plan/Canadian Plan" are generally blamed for why we don't move forward w/universal health care...but if there are "bad" things in those plans, we discard or change those parts, and cover everyone...pretty damn simple to me...Keep the good, change/excise the bad.

Health insurance is essentially a form of the dreaded "socialism" we hear so much of as well. As stated above, a pool of people pay for treatment. The fraction that is put into the "pot" by many, allows those within the system to benefit by not having to pay for the entire procedure/treatment. Essentially...many pay for the few; someone else is paying for the treatment of the patient, not the patient themselves. In a way, that is the essence of "socialism", at least in the minds of those who really think about it. What is the difference between paying sat $300 a month to an insurance company as opposed to paying the same to a gov't sponsored program that guarantees health care for all, choices of med professionals remain personal, but treatments and prevention are available to all?

Reality 101...for the price of a few outmoded policies and saving cash not fighting absurd wars in nations that are not a direct threat, we could have excellent health-care for everyone in this nation.


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freemarketer6 Donating Member (189 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Yes, thank you. I totally agree with that.
dd
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
6. Terribly written article.
Comparing the deaths wrought by Stalin and Mao to universal health care is one of the strangest things I have ever seen.

That being said, I don't think the government should pay for unlimited medical services if the situation is very marginal. For example, if someone has late stage pancreatic cancer and is 75 years old. That is of questionable value. If they want to pay out of pocket, that's their decision, but I don't think that is a prudent deployment of public resources.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
7. The assertion " 'ration' healthcare . . . to treat or not to treat is . . . a government question"
certainly poses an interesting issue because any version of universal health care will include some government bureaucracy to determine who gets a medical procedure and who is rejected when budgets are limited.

One example of that is UK's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence and its Cost-Effectiveness Threshold.

NICE uses cost-benefits analysis to determine which medical procedures can be given within a given budget.

NICE closes door to GSK’s breast cancer drug Tyverb, Sutent in question
05 March 2009

The National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence has this morning issued a final appraisal determination rejecting the provision of GlaxoSmithKline’s advanced breast cancer drug Tyverb on the National Health Service.

The Institute has ruled that the drug is not a cost-effective use of NHS resources despite the drugmaker’s proposed patient access programme, under which it offered to pick up the tab for the first 12 weeks of treatment with Tyverb (lapatinib).

“In recognition of the cost effectiveness challenges with drugs that treat patients with a short life expectancy, we offered the Tyverb Patient Access Programme to help ensure it was made available on the NHS,” explained Simon Jose, General Manager of GSK UK. And he added that while it is difficult to comment without the appearance of self interest, “there is clearly more work to be done by all parties when flexible access programmes from industry and the recent changes by NICE for patients with a short life expectancy still fail to give them access to valuable medicines.”

During the Institute’s appraisal of Tyverb NICE updated its guidance for the assessment of life-extending drugs for small patient populations - raising the cost-effectiveness threshold to help patients get better access to these medicines – and so GSK submitted a sub-group analysis that met the survival criterion of this new advice. However, the data failed to shift the Institute’s position, “reflecting the difficulty in demonstrating significant survival benefits in patients at this advanced stage of disease”, the firm stressed.

Google {NICE "Cost Effectiveness Threshold"} for more information.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
9. UK "NICE's cost effectiveness threshold How high should it be?"
NICE's cost effectiveness threshold How high should it be?
This valuation lies at the heart of the work performed by NICE—which, since its inception in 1999, has adopted a cost effectiveness threshold range of £20 000 ( 29 500; $40 000) to £30 000 per quality adjusted life year (QALY) gained. NICE does not accept or reject healthcare technologies on cost effectiveness grounds alone,3 4 5 although it is undoubtedly a major deciding factor. But the uncomfortable truth is that NICE's threshold has no basis in either theory or evidence.

This is not a technical problem confined to the decisions made by NICE. That is just the tip of an iceberg of clinical, managerial, and policy decisions made daily in health care—decisions that, unlike those derived from NICE's transparent procedures, may not be based on an explicit threshold, or even consider cost effectiveness at all. Nevertheless, these decisions all imply that the value of the health benefits justify the costs—of the operation, the prescription, the new hospital, a reduction in waiting times, and so on.

The cost effectiveness threshold is emerging as a key factor in the House of Commons Health Select Committee inquiry into NICE, which has received evidence that the threshold may be too generous.2 6 If this suggestion is correct, the implications are profound. It means that NICE has recommended too many new technologies. It also means that when primary care trusts implement NICE's guidance, resources may be diverted from other healthcare services that are better value for money. By setting the hurdle too low (the cost per QALY threshold too high), NICE might be reducing the efficiency of the NHS. So, what should the threshold be?

Two approaches to setting a cost effectiveness threshold have been proposed.7 The first is to decide the worth or value of a QALY and set the NHS budget so that all health care is provided at a cost at or below that value. The second is to decide how much we wish to spend on the NHS, and let the value of a QALY emerge from the decisions made by NHS purchasers. If purchasers aim to maximise QALYs, and their budgets are set so that they can do so, these approaches converge. In practice these conditions are not met and there is currently no political or other mechanism to facilitate them. The danger is that purchasers are likely to make inconsistent decisions based on their variable, and often implicit, valuations of health gain.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Why should NICE be required to set and defend what is an NHS wide cost effectiveness threshold? The factors that should determine this threshold—such as society's willingness to pay for health improvements, the size of the NHS budget, the level of health sector inflation, and the discount rate used for future costs and benefits—are beyond NICE's control. Moreover, as these factors are not constant the problem of thresholds can never be resolved. This means NICE has to keep the threshold constantly under review, although its main business and expertise is in appraising health technologies and producing guidelines.

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PaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-08-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
10. Can't we have a national single-payer system.........
that covers everyone and also give citizens the option to buy supplemental private insurance on top of the national coverage if they are so inclined in order to prolong their lives in the event that they have late stage colon cancer etc.?
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