Specter is not your friend.

Dems are cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Dems are guaranteeing anti-union Republican Specter an un-opposed place on the ticket? What about building the party with bona fide PA Dems?

Why why why are Democrats celebrating Specter?

He is against the EFCA

He voted with Republicans 80% of the time

He voted for:

The PATRIOT Act and its extension.

The Iraq War

The Military Commissions Act.

Every Bush appointee

Telecom immunity.

Warrentless evesdropping

Bush tax cuts

That is why. I can't BELIEVE all the posts telling us that this isn't good news.

The fact is that there are smart conservatives who love this country. But they've been getting their nuts cut off ever since Rush took over the party, and they are looking for comrades in common sense, just to escape the insanity. We should be welcoming ALL of them to us, because in a contest of common sense against extremism, common sense will prevail. And that is enough to relegate the extremists to obscurity, which is as it should be. So be happy!!!

incredible that you would make that assertion. Meanwhile, good Democrats that could have run for Specters seat are shut out by the Dem leadership.

I tiny micro-minority of Dems who are upset about this?

Its so hard to tell, what with all the noise:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6188806.ece

Unfortunately, you cannot hear my answer we we cannot have a substantive discussion because you are not an elephant.

We don't need ANOTHER democrat who votes
like a republican.

The republicans are of no consequence right now,
what matters is CLEANING UP our own party,
NOT bringing in more TRASH.

Your taking your eye off the ball: This isn't a time to introspect and purify ourselves, that's what you do after you lose and you're rebuilding. The ball isn't even in our side of the court, its in the Republican side. What matters in the long term is the shape THEIR party takes and what happens with THEM right now. Capturing moderate sentiments as being "Democratic" in the public eye is worth its weight in gold, because we want them to be doing just what you're trying to do, throwing the TRASH out of their party, especially when what they consider TRASH is their moderate voters.

and against adequately funding public schools...

then we don't need them.

Period.

They will stymie things in committee.

We had to WIN first, now we have
to exert pressure on our guys to
do the right thing.

Adding another layer of DINOS is NOT
what we need, it will only cause the
DEMS to splinter.

If Specter is already guaranteed no Democratic primary opponents, the only party left to oppose him would be the Republicans in the general.

can't find a good soul to run in a hurry in PA?

That's how leadership will do it if their incumbent won't do right. Specter will be allied with the winning team, but he'll have to play ball to earn and keep his place in the tribe. They want him for some specific legislation. He'll do what he's told, or he'll be retiring.

it is a done deal and the 50 state strategy is lost for a cycle in PA. This is exactly how the Republicans worked themselves into a corner. They welcomed the all comers with an (R) in order to increase their numbers to prop up the administration branch of government.

to the Democratic ticket. Further, if you're voting "D" for your Senator, it makes it easier to vote "D" for your representative.

He's got a donor list that's probably pretty hefty. I'm betting a lot of those guys have deep pockets, and some of them will be ready to move over with him.

The GOP actively recruited very specific (not all comers--very particular) people with a "social" agenda--no gays, no "oddball" (from their perspective) minorities, Jeeeeesus, no choice, that kind of thing--to rally a dormant voting bloc, the fundy Xtians. Now the fundies, lots of them, are starting to realize that being greedy ain't Jesus-like, that failing to aid the poor ain't Jesus-like either...that kind of thing.

And ironically, it was the whole Faith Based Initiative (a BushCo Production) that made them start to realize that the collars and cuffs did not match. For now, they're disillusioned. They aren't as reliable a bloc as they used to be.

And like it or not, the fact that the Democratic Party consists of a wide swathe of people, from the very liberal to the very conservative, tells people from all perspectives that yes, they can find someone who reflects their particular viewpoint under our big tent. We've always been successful when we haven't tried to be ideological nitwits, and we've allowed divergent views to have a voice.

PA unions are pissed off at Specter. The rank and file don't matter to Biden, Obama, and the Dem leadership but it matters a lot to working class Dems in PA. Voting for a "D" for your Senator is, indeed, easier to vote for than your Rep when the leadership has already decided for you that there is going to be one tired old decades long dedicated Republican on the ticket.

There are already donors who are asking for their money back.

The Democratic party is recruiting very specific people like Specter who voted with the radical Republican agenda 80% of the time! By the way, have you heard of the "Log Cabin Republicans"? And have you heard of the splinter group (can't think of the name right now) that doesn't think that they are conservative enough?

There are no fundies that are coming to the Democratic party. There are evangelicals... which are a totally different thing.

It doesn't matter what I like or not... I never made any argument about what I like or not about the Democratic party. I am making a specific argument about Specter.

By the way, have you ever read any of the Democratic Party's platforms? Yes, they do outline an ideology that is distinct from the Republican platform and there are specific actions that Obama has taken that reinforce that distinction.

Specter is and will continue to be a Republican. He was courted by the Dems in a cynical move and he agreed in order to maintain his political power.


Meanwhile, up and coming Dems and the organization that was built by Dean and enhance by Obama is left with supporting an impotent Dem (Specter) or engaging in that political machine operated system that dictates that the rank & file don't matter, and sitting the election out.

And economic policies that only benefit the wealthiest Americans.

It belongs to the Dems now. And we have plenty of Dems (aka DLC, Blue Dogs, New Democrats) that support the same economic policies.

I think PA Dems should revolt, and counter with their own candidate. The RSCC did guarantee Specter no support for a primary opponent. It's all about him.

When Al Franken gets seated, I want to see the excuses we get for not getting any progressive legislation passed with a super-majority.

This party helps everyone who even considers giving the appearance of "playing ball", whether they do or not.

n/t

He just got... silly .... towards the end, and he ran out of gas.

The GOP candidate had NO juice, but the Dem was running a good campaign--it just wasn't serious enough towards the end, when it needed to be serious. It also was skewed too far to the left, and facts are facts--you have to portray yourself as senator to all the people in a state. Lamont threw EVERYTHING at "The War" and didn't spare enough attention for the All Politics Is Local type issues that are also important.

That was my point- none of the "centrists" and DLC chumps and other fellow conservatives who seem to control much of our party are going to "vigorously oppose" Spector any more than they "vigorously opposed" Lieberman.

Not that I oppose Spector's switch- but I thought I would just point out a major flaw in your argument.

And maybe Dodd. And that was because Obama and he had a protoge - mentor relationship in the Senate.

Lamont got PAC money from some of the Senate crew when he got that primary win, and many offered to campaign with him. The problem was, all of those "DLC chumps" and "centrists" you are disparaging had the "wrong" Iraq War vote, so he stiff-armed them. They didn't refuse him--he refused them.

Even with that Iraq War difference, he turned down help that would have greatly improved his gravitas factor. Lamont's problem was that after he energized the left, he failed to adequately engage the mushy middle...and you don't win without those folks, even if some might disdain them. He also ran out of gas at the end. When he should have been pouring it on, he pulled back and released a kind of silly TV ad. His timing was off.

At the end of the day, Lieberman, with his socially liberal views and his proven ability to bring home bacon (religious views notwithstanding), was the fit that the state decided was better for them. They wussed out, and went for the devil they knew. But Lamont has to take some of the blame--he failed to expand his base, and he had the dough and the personality to do so. He just didn't have sufficient vision on the part of his campaign staff. IMO.

will no longer have his arm twisted by Mitch McConnell and he won't have to worry about a repub primary challenger. So he has less pressure to toe the conservative line and is one less warm body controlled by Mitch McConnell.

Also, the Dem leadership couldn't stop Ned Lamont from upsetting Lieberman in the primary so you never know.

when we need him to, he will not have the backing of the President and the Party in 2010. As he mentioned in his presser yesterday, that is why he switched parties...to run and win as a Democrat because Toomey would have wiped the floor with him.

he can get relected. While he won't be a rubber stamp -- and shouldn't be -- he's not going to spit in the eye of party that is his only hope of retaining his seat. He may have to win the primary, and if there is no Dem primary challenger, Spector needs the President's support for his election. He's already asked Obama to campaing for him.

Not to worry. Spector will be more on board than Nelson and possibly Lieberman.

It's all good.

Expect him to do the same to us.

You are 100% correct.

Hmm, which ones? And why would they, why???

I think Biden knows how much of Specter's persona is poltical expediency, and how much is sincere.

I'm going to put my trust in Biden on this one--I think he knows what he's doing. And I'm going to hope for the best, and not assume the sky is falling.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

.... you all will forgive me for trusting Joe Biden's expertise on how things work in the US Senate than that of ANYONE on this board.

Joe's happy.

I'm happy.

(but then again, Joe's always happy)

I think JB knows his way around the Senate. He spent a lot of time there, and he's the Senate President now.

I think he reached across the aisle....and dragged one back.

Maybe he'll do it a few more times!

without the conservative army up his ass

record on health issues than almost everyone except Sen. Kennedy. You know he has been a dependable vote on women's issues and education issues. You'd know that the Children's Defense Fund gives him a 78% rating. Do other Senators have better voting records? Sure. But there are a good many, Ds included, whose lifetime voting records are far worse. Even his lifetime labor record isn't bad. Expect him to play a significant role in a re-worked EFCA. I've read in two union sources that work is currently underway and that he is a part of the effort.

He just now voted against the Stimulus bill and he plans to vote against EFCA. He's dead in the primary, whatever the Democratic 'leadership' says.

is it gets us closer to that 60 votes assuming Franken wins Minnesota. Those 60 votes are important.

There is no such thing as a 60 vote requirement. 60 votes is necessary to break a filibuster. Lets out the obstructionists.

Sounds like Hillary Clinton's voting record.

and in this case, a miss is as good as a mile.

The difference between Hillary Clinton and Arlen Specter is less than the difference between Barack Obama and FDR.

:wtf:

And no, not even close to her voting record.

:eyes:

Some of you will just never let it go.

let what go?

:shrug:

is very small.

K/R

Better than a red jackass.

remember "voting was along party lines" ... used constantly for quite some time ...

It's not like we traded away a Democrat in exchange for him.

We got him for free.

We had to give up running someone in the Democratic primary in PA for him. I'd hardly call that free.

In the past Specter has not been our friend. Today Specter has been separated from that which gave him power as an enemy, while at the same time, gave the enemy a black eye.

There are many Dem's who voted for items on your list but we still deal with them and are better for it.

Besides, you just described half the democrats in the senate. They aren't my enemies either.

slowly bleed the Republican Party.

With Specter, long courted, now on the blue team, I think it's reasonable to believe that he received assurances from his new pals that he would be supported in his quest to retain a seat in the Senate -- and likely in return for significnt, high-profile votes in favor of the Obama legislative agenda.

McConnell is throwing a hissy fit over this as we speak.

The Pennsylvania GOP is now a far-right Toomey landscape. Obama and Biden have re-sculpted it to make it easier for statewide and down-ballot Dems to run and win.

I'm not hogwild about Arlen Specter. Far from it. But I admire smart politics when I see it. I think we're seeing it now.

This right here is the upside. It's a black eye for the GOP and a PR disaster for the RNC.

Plus Specter is now labor's bitch if he wants to be reelected--he may have to reevaluate his stance on EFCA. He has to placate an entirely different constituency.

If his votes don't support the President's agenda, I have no doubts that he'll lose Dem support. There's a lot of daylight between now and the Primary. Each side had to get something from this deal that's significant for each.

and not because I'm so enamored with Spector, but because of the implosion of the GOP.

Spector's okay. He can be a real a-hole, but the same can be said for most politicains including a whole bunch of Democrats. In fact, I might take Spector over Diane Fienstein if I had to choose.

Life is good.

.

:hi:

be for the hard-ball politics being played.

There's a reason for the black smoke roiling out of Mitch McConnell's ears.

With Franken (eventualy) seated from Minnesota, and Specter now on the blue side of the aisle, McConnell's job of obstructing the Obama legislative agenda has become even more difficult than it already was.

I can't see any sound reason, given his history, that anyone would simply assume that.

base of support just changed. Not entirely -- as there is likely to be significant swing-vote crossover.

But enough in the fund-raising categories of politics to matter how he votes, and with whom.

I think we'll see a few of the "old" Arlen votes. But quite a few of the new blue ones as well.

If Specter wins the nom and then the general, he has Obama and Biden to thank for it. And no one else.

This bears watching and I think we'll enjoy the general outcome and that McConnell et al will not.

I don't trust Specter, he's against EFCA. He's only switching to stay in the Senate. How dumb does he think we are here! The unions need to get behind Sestak.

You don't make flag without getting that lesson pretty well.

If someone from DNC tells him that Obama wants him to wait, he'll wait.

and it's the ONLY one: It royally pissed off Republicans - and it forces them to either pander furhter to the right ailianating more in the middle, or now change course, and try to stay in the middle - pissing off the Religious Right.

Either way - we win.

Specter will vote as he always has.. a la Lieberman. He made no bones about who or what he stands for yesterday in his press conference.. at least he was honest about the reasoning for doing this.. he voted with Dems on the TARP bill, and has no chance of winning a primary in a state where more dems like him then republicans.

At least now we might get him to go with us on the issues he doesn't care much about - if only to piss off those who have pissed him off.

And for the issues where he would have voted with the republicans.. if he still does so - we're no worse off then we were yesterday.

A far more appropriate saying would be "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth."

He is the living proof of how extreme the Republican Party has become in which they will not tolerate any of their members putting the welfare of their county before their allegiance to the party's policy of obstructionism.

and a big spotlight shined on the fact that they're purging moderates from their party.

It doesn't matter if he votes with us or not...we just need to end a filibuster, then he can vote however the fuck he pleases. It has nothing to do with his voting record. The Democrats in the Senate just need him on procedural votes.

Specter could also be convinced to allow cloture to take place on certain votes, although not necessarily to vote with what Obama wants. He is almost 80. I doubt we would have to put up with him for more then 1 more term.

my friend or not. His move damages the Repub party, and strengthens our party. Democrats are seen by people as the party of inclusion, and the Repub as the stupid-heads-up-asses party. This is is a good thing.

Some votes we need will be extracted from Specter's hide, so his being a party member will have some procedural value.

Spector may not be my best friend, but he's not the enemy either. He's now a member of our party and better than some of the other members we already have -- Nelson, Landreau to name two.

Hillary and several other Dems voted for alot of those issues you listed as well. Should we kick them out of the party too?

And that was before he switched to Dem.

Considering my entire household income is based on NIH funding, he is a friend I am glad to have.

He'll lose his primary if he votes the way he did today and I expect him to in the future.

but I have no problem using him and he has no problem using us.

No one in the Congress is your friend.

he says I'm special.

My impression is that it will be a net gain - he's better as a DINO that's only nominally in our party than as actual opposition. The Rethugs can no longer dictate he march in lock-step with them. Doesn't mean he'll lock-step with us, but it's an improvement.

Reid? Pelosi? Schumer? Frank? They are ALL politicians. They're all at the mercy of those they represent. Pennsylvania is not a blue dog state. It's not enough for Specter to have the support of the leadership. He has to pander to his constituents if he wants their vote. In blue dog states, it's a bit more understanding why our senators vote more conservatively. Specter's catering to a new base, and if he likes being senator, especially in Penn., he's gonna be a rubber stamp on quite a few issues. Relax.

I also like Boxer a whole lot.

I think perhaps he is the biggest two face in all of congress. I am not sure you could even count the times he has said one thing and done another.

Spector the Defector.....runs away from the Lector Crowd....