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Obama Is NOT Defending Torture or Bush/Cheney and he's Certainly Not Breaking The Law

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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:06 PM
Original message
Obama Is NOT Defending Torture or Bush/Cheney and he's Certainly Not Breaking The Law
This bullshit meme needs to end here at DU. Those repeating it are causing harm to the party and to the Democratic and Liberal causes.

Obama is absolutely not defending torture by asking the court to reconsider it's decision. He's within his legal right to do so. And he's stated the reasons for this, on the record.

If Obama was defending torture, he would never have released the torture memos which showed that
A) Torture was indeed committed, and
B) Was ordered from the highest office

If Obama was defending torture he would never have closed Gitmo or declared an Executive Order banning all techniques of torture authorized by the Bush Administration.

Obama has listened to all parties and has made a judgement call that releasing previously unreleased photos to the public
1) Add nothing to the argument or currently ongoing investigations into torture by the DoJ
2) Place Americans abroad at an unnecessary increased risk of harm

Obama's job is to consider the real-life implications of every action executed by his Office. He has listened and become informed. He's following the rule of law by going through the courts.

He's NOT Defending Torture. He's NOT Defending Bush/Cheney. And he's certainly not Breaking The Law.

Those who continue to repeat these lies are causing real damage to everything the grass roots has worked for in the last 8 years.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R ...
... and thanks for setting the record straight.

:patriot:
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Old Hank Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
2. Defending torture? No. Defending torturers? Yes
Edited on Sat May-16-09 01:21 PM by Old Hank
The Obama administration threatened UK not to say what we did to Binyam Mohamed, who claims to have been tortured, and even claims that his penis was sliced and stuffed with a hot liquid:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/12/obama/index.html
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Wrong. Same justification applies to requesting (not threatening) the UK to comply.
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Old Hank Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Request. What a cute word for threat
Edited on Sat May-16-09 01:18 PM by Old Hank
You did not mention that the US threatened to stop providing anti-terrorism intelligence to the UK, if it made torture evidence available in this case.

That's a threat. If you request that I bring you water and I don't, would you hit me on the knee?
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. You've got it right!
He is defending torturers if he fails to surrender them to justice. Perhaps Bernie would prefer we substitute "protecting", "harboring", or "giving sanctuary". Must be a Tennessee thing.


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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. To update your Greenwald link: "That's just factually true."
Today's http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/05/16/obama/index.html">blog entry:
Since that first week, Obama has engaged in one action after the next to preserve many of the key prongs, and the essential architecture, of the Bush/Cheney abuses of executive power and civil liberties. That's just factually true.

It's also factually true that http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSTRE53H1Y020090418">defending torturers is breaking the law.

And FWIW, he also does essentially "defend" torture when he claims the right to "ban" (so logically, the right to "unban") the practice -- when he treats such war criminality as a "policy" question.

---



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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
30. the UK has their own problems..
with the Iraq War and the treatment of prisoners. I don't think it would take much of a "Threat" to get them to halt any court proceedings. That article is confusing to say the least..but completely in line with the writers past articles.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. here's the actual document..
from which Greewald selects excerpts..
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH AFFAIRS
Defendant
____________
ATTACHMENT
____________
On two prior occasions the United States Government contacted Her Majesty’s Government (HMG) in connection with legal proceedings initiated by former Guantanamo Bay detainee Binyam Ahmed Mohamed. On both occasions, we iterated the high esteem in which we hold the relationship between the United States and the United Kingdom. In maintaining our remarkably open sharing of information, we indicated our strong objection to the public disclosure of certain classified information. We are most appreciative of HMG’s efforts in preventing the public disclosure of the highly sensitive information.
It has come to the United States Government’s attention that on 22 April 2009 your High Court heard argument on a motion of Mr. Mohamed for reconsideration of the Court’s decision to withhold seven paragraphs from its open decision of 21 August 2008. The Court withheld those seven paragraphs at the request of your Foreign Secretary, based on a Public Interest Immunity Certificate that explained the damage to the United Kingdom’s intelligence relationship with the United States--and as a consequence the United Kingdom’s own national security--if the paragraphs were disclosed. Mr. Mohamed argued during the 22 April hearing that given the change in administration in the United States, HMG should be ordered to ask the Obama administration for its views on the disclosure of the information contained in the seven paragraphs.
Days prior to the 22 April hearing, the Obama administration released four memoranda issued by the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC of the U.S. Department of Justice that describe interrogation techniques that the CIA employed during interrogations of certain high-value detainees. I understand that during the hearing, the High Court placed great import on President Obama’s decision to release the OLC memoranda as an indication that the United States Government would not object to disclosure of the seven paragraphs. The Court made clear, nevertheless, that it would entertain further clarification of the United States Government’s position, and the potential damage to the U.K.-U.S. intelligence sharing relationship that would be caused by public disclosure of the seven paragraphs.
The seven paragraphs at issue are based upon classified information shared between our countries. Public disclosure of this information, reasonably could be expected to cause serious damage to the United Kingdom’s national security. Specifically, disclosure of this information may result in a constriction of the U.S.-U.K. relationship, as well as U.K. relationships with other countries. Among the most critical sources and methods in
the collection of foreign intelligence are the relationships the United Kingdom maintains with foreign countries. Through these relationships, the United Kingdom’s intelligence and security services are able to provide national security and foreign policy officials with information that is critical to informed decision making; information that the United Kingdom cannot obtain through other means. Without the assistance of these foreign governments, it is almost certain that the United Kingdom’s ability to identify and arrest suspected terrorists and to disrupt terrorist plots would be severely hampered. Quite clearly, the information that the United Kingdom obtains from the United States and other foreign governments is a critical component of the United Kingdom’s counterterrorist efforts.
The cooperation and sharing of intelligence between the United Kingdom and United States, as well as with other foreign governments, exists under strict conditions of secrecy. Public disclosure by the United Kingdom of information garnered from such relationships would suggest that the United Kingdom is unwilling or unable to protect information or assistance provided by its allies. As a consequence, if foreign partners learn that information it has provided is publicly disclosed, these foreign partners could take steps to withhold from the United Kingdom sensitive information that could be important to its safety and security. Any decreased cooperation from those foreign partners would adversely impact counterterrorism missions and other endeavors.
Quite distinct from the significant harm to the U.S.–U.K. partnership if the seven paragraphs--or underlying documents--are released, is the impact of President Obama’s declassification of the OLC memoranda. The memoranda focused solely on intelligence-gathering methods previously utilized by the CIA. In releasing the memoranda, President Obama made clear his administration’s intention that the enhanced interrogation techniques discussed therein would no longer be utilized by the United States Government. Neither in the memoranda, nor in any statements of the administration accompanying their release, was reference made to the identity of any foreign governments that might have assisted the United States. Given the declassification of the highly sensitive information contained in the memoranda, the fact that the President refrained from providing any information about foreign governments is indicative that the United States continues to preserve the secrecy of such information as critical to our national security.
Public disclosure of the information contained in the seven paragraphs withheld from the High Court’s open decision, as well as the documents from which the information was drawn, could likely result in serious damage to U.K. and U.S. national security. If it is determined that HMG is unable to protect information we provide to it, even if that inability is caused by your judicial system, we will necessarily have to review with the greatest care the sensitivity of information we can provide in future
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank you
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. He seems to be considering promoting the head torturers.
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galloglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
8. How about these verbs??
"protecting", "harboring", or "giving sanctuary". Not illegal. Not defending them, either.

What it is, though, is "wrong".




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The Magistrate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
9. True On All Counts, Sir
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. I agree nt
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. KnR. This line of attack from within--this RW meme being spewed here-- is driving me crazy...
Thanks, berni.

Hekate


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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. Gitmo's closed?
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. Another worthy read, Bernie!
:D
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
14. Of course, he's not and the
ones who are atttempting to perpetuate that have a hidden agenda that has nothing to do with helping our country.

Thanks for trying to bring some facts here, bernie. I remember during the Primary Wars when this board would be raging with something Obama was suppose to have done or not done and you would post these well thought out explainations:)
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. Bernie - Thanks, nice lean summary of the key points.
Recommending.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
17. The White House is RERQUIRED to prosecute Torturers...
...by at least two treaties of which the US is a signatory.

The UN Convention against Torture REQUIRES the prosecution of torturers.
International Treaties that are ratified by the Senate become US LAW.

"No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture" and "an order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture" (Art. 2 (2-3)).

There is NO SUCH THING as torturing "in good faith", and no exceptions are allowed for those Obama has already excused.

You stated:
A)" Torture was indeed committed, and
B) Was ordered from the highest office"



The ACLU (among others) called for th appointment of an Independent Prosecutor three weeks ago. So why all the delay and foot dragging by the White House.



So your OP is not exactly true.
The longer the White House delays, the greater the perception that the White House is protecting Torturers and War Criminals. The ambivalence and delay exhibited by the White House concerning torture will do MORE harm to our troops overseas than the release of the photos. Everyone in the Middle East ALREADY KNOWS what the US has done. It is only the US citizens who remain ignorant.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. where in any of what you posted does it say "the WHITE HOUSE must prosecute?"
your post is not 'exactly true'.

:shrug:
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The Department of Justice is organized UNDER the Executive Branch..
Edited on Sat May-16-09 10:25 PM by bvar22
They are the ONLY branch of government that CAN prosecute.
Prosecution of ALL persons involved in torture at ANY level is REQUIRED by several Treaties.

It is The LAW.
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. has the White House told Holder to NOT pursue the issue?
take a sec. and read here-


http://www.theage.com.au/world/obama-may-prosecute-over-torture-20090422-afc0.html


Then please explain to me how your post saying the White House dropped the ball is accurate.


thanks~
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. Before I answer your question (and I will),
Edited on Sun May-17-09 10:39 AM by bvar22
please respond to the content of my post:

The White House is required by LAW to prosecute ALL persons involved in torture.
There are NO exceptions.


True or False?
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Bluerthanblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. 'required' by whom?
and who makes the decision as to when prosecution is necessary?

I am in NO WAY saying that I don't believe what has been done by our country and at the request of our country is torture- (and worse, -murder-).

I'm puzzled by your fixation on the 'requirement' angle- and the link you make to 'the White House'. Isn't any prosecution of torture supposed to be from an 'independent' position? (bi-partisan)- ?

Do we really allow nations to prosecute themselves? Especially when they are the instigators of the conflict, and the ...(victors) ??? I have no better word, though that word hardly fits.

I DO think we must hold those responsible for the state sponsored abuse and torture of people in the custody of US forces. I think that if we don't hold trials, that we're leaving this for rest of the world community to do.

The conflict is not over yet- is it customary to prosecute war crimes at this stage?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Required by US law when we signed onto the Geneva torture convention.
Edited on Sun May-17-09 08:33 PM by EFerrari
When an instance of prisoner torture is discovered, they are required by that convention to immediately open an investigation. Failure to do that is a crime in itself under the convention we signed into law.
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Political Tiger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. But INDEPENDENT of the Executive Branch.
32. Department of Justice Communications with the White House

It is imperative that there be public confidence that the laws of the United States are administered and enforced in an impartial manner. To that end, all components of the Department of Justice, including United States Attorneys' Offices, shall abide by the following procedures governing communication between the Department of Justice and the White House.

Pending Criminal Investigations and Cases

The Department shall provide the White House with information about pending criminal investigations or cases only when doing so is important for the performance of the President's duties and appropriate from a law enforcement perspective. Except with respect to national security matters, all initial communications that concern or may concern a pending criminal investigation or a criminal case pending at the trial level should take place only between the Office of the Deputy Attorney General and the Office of the Counsel to the President, and all initial communications that concern or may concern a criminal case pending at the appellate level should take place only between the Office of the Counsel to the President and either the Office of the Deputy Attorney General or the Office of the Solicitor General. If appropriate with regard to a particular case or investigation, the Office of the Counsel to the President and the senior Justice Department official with whom the White House is dealing will design and monitor a process for ongoing contact between the White House and Justice Department concerning that particular matter.

http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title1/doj00032.htm
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
50. Oh see, there you go with all those facts - they really get in the way of a good rant.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. and you know this won't happen, how?
Every day it seems another government official is requesting that Eric Holder appoint a special prosecutor. Of course there are those pesky 50% of Americans who are just fine with torture and don't believe there should be prosecutions. I would hope that people are writing letters and contacting their representatives, and asking their friends to do the same, if they really want prosecutions. I get a little confused about what it is people think will happen with prosecutions. Do you really think that the United States Government will allow the worst crimes committed by our government to be revealed in court? This is far worse than Iran/Contra but I'm sure as I type the government is trying to figure out a way to put on a show just like that one, while at the same time keeping a lid on it.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
46. All Presidents swear an oath to uphold the Constitution during formal induction
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progdog Donating Member (435 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
18. Thanks Bernie.
Making sense again. :hi:
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firedupdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R n/t
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geek tragedy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 07:20 PM
Response to Original message
20. Remember the Jacobins, who beheaded everyone who disagreed
with them for any reason?

We have lots of AngloRobespierres here at DU. Fortunately, these ones just post angry, irrational rants and are completely inconsequential.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
44. I think the exact same thing can be said
of the Obama über alles crew.

I've seen rationalizations (or condemnations) here every bit as twisted and stretched as anything I heard from BushCo.'s minions on YV.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
21. Gitmo is closed?
I hadn't heard about that. When did it close? Where did they send the detainees?
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
34. they're in your back yard..
I believe the date of the closing in the executive order is January of next year. Just to keep you up to date, the President said in January, that in the years time they would have to create a new legal framework in which detainee's could be tried. They would have to gather new evidence, because all the evidence obtained through torture would have to be tossed. And..of course, those innocents need to find a place in the world to call home. I read recently that the United States government is willing to pay other countries to take them.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Yeah, right, sure.
He said he would not vote for telecom immunity, then he voted for it.

He said he would close Gitmo, the he leaves it open.

He said he would end the military tribunals, then he continues them.

He said he would not appeal the decision to release the torture photos, then he files an appeal.

He said he would not allow the taxpayer bailout money to go to pay off executive bonuses, then he lets them pay themselves huge bonuses.

Isn't there a pattern emerging here?


What is the excuse for not closing Gitmo? Can you explain it again? Why are the detainees still there?
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O is 44 Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. He stated on his second day
in office that Gitmo would be closed within a year. The year is not up yet. For those against military tribunals how is the President supposed to handle these detainees? These individuals were swiped up from Middle East held at Gitmo and never charged. I believe most of these people picked up were not terrorist but after being held and abused for all these years of course, they will have anti-American views and could pose a threat. I have heard a lot of criticism about the President's decision but I have heard no one offering suggestions of what should be done. I would love hear alternative solutions.

Ps. Can you provide a link to where he stated he would not appeal the torture photos. And for all those who think the President is trying to cover for the Bush administration I ask you this why did he bother to release the torture memos? Those are pretty damning.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. The chronology is actually pretty simple.
Last September a court ruled that Bush had to release the photos. Bush refused. Last month Obama said it was pointless to contest the court's ruling. He agreed to a future release of the photos, scheduled for May 28th. Last week he decided to appeal the court's ruling, giving no explanation at all of why he now believes that an appeal will be productive.


White House: No point appealing photos' lawsuit

snip>

The White House says it was clear an appeal of a court ruling ordering the administration to release photographs of prisoners abused by U.S. military or civilian personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan would not succeed.

White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said Friday that Department of Justice lawyers concluded they would lose if they fought a judge's order to release those photos. Gibbs said President Barack Obama is not worried his political agenda will be compromised by pictures depicting abuse under his predecessor. The pictures will be released by May 28.

snip>


Since the ACLU's FOIA request in 2003, the Bush administration had refused to disclose these images, the ACLU said. The administration claimed that disclosure of such evidence would generate outrage and would violate U.S. obligations toward detainees under the Geneva Conventions, the ACLU said.

A three-judge panel of the appeals court in September 2008 rejected the Bush administration's position, saying there was significant public interest in disclosure of the photographs, the ACLU said. The Bush administration's appeal to the full appeals court was denied on March 11 of this year.

more>

http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/articles/2009/04/24/white_house_no_point_appealing_photos_lawsuit/



As to what should be done with the detainees, I would suggest doing what we have always done. We either treat them as POWs, in which case they can be brought in front of a military tribunal but they cannot be charged with a crime for committing legal acts of warfare (ie. killing a bunch of people); or, we treat them as civilian prisoners, in which case they can be charged and tried in front of a criminal court.

What exactly is the purpose of having a military tribunal if these folks are not POWs who have been accused of war crimes? It does not make any sense, unless of course you are trying to create a separate species of sub-human to whom no human rights should be applicable. In that case, the whole thing makes a lot of sense but it flies in the face of what this country has always stood for.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. when did you think Gitmo was going to close?
did you pay not attention to the executive order? I'm surprised that so many people are played by headlines. You'd think people who pay attention would remember. Like the military tribunals. He did end them. And at the time stated that they needed to create a new legal frame work in which to try those detainee's that could be charged with something. Because so much of the evidence was compromised they had to go through all of it and determine if there was untainted evidence from which charges could be brought. I know it is all too much to expect people to have to read, and comprehend more than a headline...so have fun with your outrage.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Gitmo is still open.
Where is your outrage?

The place is beyond an embarassment to me.

It is a disgrace.

A disgrace that you are happy to live with.

If your dog shits in your livingroom do you decide to wait a year to clean it up?

That would disgust me, just like the people who want to leave Gitmo open for another year disgust me.
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Window Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
22. Apparently, most here know better than the President on these matters.
K/R.



:kick:
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scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
23. Berni... you're just another bootlicker

;-)

Great post.


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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
26. K&R. n/t
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. K&R, and a note:
A great many people here have taken it upon themselves to insist that they understand the law better than Obama and his legal team.

While I give props for their gusto, I'm not sure their opinions are quite backed by the facts, let alone the law.
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O is 44 Donating Member (740 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. I happen to like the debate
I'm sure Obama does as well. If everyone is in lockstep one becomes complacent. I for one cannot wait for his speech on Thursday where he will address some of these issues. People may not agree with his reasoning but at least this President feels compelled to discuss his reasoning for his decisions. Something he referred to in his recent Newsweek interview, which I thought was great. He condemns the Washington talking heads thinking that they must dumb down complex issues. He rejects that and believes the American people can handle in depth discussions on complex issues. I happen to agree.

By he way I love your pic, I'm sure he says that alot when dealing with the Republican spin machine.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-16-09 11:58 PM
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33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##



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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:06 PM
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39. You are making a fact-based argument, and sadly ...
fact-based arguments simply are irrelevant to some sectors of the political spectrum.

But a very good effort.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 12:18 PM
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40. I agree but we must be on the wrong Board

Sometimes I wonder ~
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scubadude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 09:33 PM
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48. You are wrong, he is defending Bush by covering for him.
Face it, the atrocities were ordered by Bush. He set up an intricate legal cover so he could do it. He wanted a mechanism to get the answers he wanted. Now by supporting the claim that it was a "few bad eggs" that performed these atrocities, Obama is taking ownership of it. The rest of the world sees it that way, because that is the truth. I saw Obama say "a few bad eggs" himself. Covering for the lies of the previous administration doesn't make us look good, it doesn't protect Americans, it makes us look complicit. It tells the rest of the world that we are hypocrits, who will say one thing when it is convenient, then reverse it when it is not.

The only way Obama can extricate himself from this mess of George Bush's creation is by placing the blame where it lies, and by having the justice department prosecute the wrong doers to the full full extent of the law. He must separate himself with proper legal recourse. Until that is done the rest of the world will know that promises made by Obama during the election were empty rhetoric, and that the U.S.A. accepts it. Unless that is done the rest of the world, especially our enemies, will use it as fuel for their hatred.

Now if the pictures were released as a part of a trial to place the blame where it surely belongs, justice would be swift and the world would cast a new eye on our country. Those Americans take their justice seriously, and no one is above the law. Yes we can.

Scuba

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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 09:39 PM
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49. In court, his Justice Department is. That is no lie.
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