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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:36 PM
Original message
The Audacity Of Humility
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/05/the-audacity-of-humility.html

The Audacity Of Humility
Andrew Sullivan


I found his Notre Dame commencement speech deeply Christian. I was struck by two passages. The first a simple statement of fact:

Understand - I do not suggest that the debate surrounding abortion can or should go away. No matter how much we may want to fudge it - indeed, while we know that the views of most Americans on the subject are complex and even contradictory - the fact is that at some level, the views of the two camps are irreconcilable.


The second was a simple statement of faith:

In this world of competing claims about what is right and what is true, have confidence in the values with which you’ve been raised and educated. Be unafraid to speak your mind when those values are at stake. Hold firm to your faith and allow it to guide you on your journey. Stand as a lighthouse.

But remember too that the ultimate irony of faith is that it necessarily admits doubt. It is the belief in things not seen. It is beyond our capacity as human beings to know with certainty what God has planned for us or what He asks of us, and those of us who believe must trust that His wisdom is greater than our own.

This doubt should not push us away from our faith. But it should humble us. It should temper our passions, and cause us to be wary of self-righteousness. It should compel us to remain open, and curious, and eager to continue the moral and spiritual debate that began for so many of you within the walls of Notre Dame. And within our vast democracy, this doubt should remind us to persuade through reason, through an appeal whenever we can to universal rather than parochial principles, and most of all through an abiding example of good works, charity, kindness, and service that moves hearts and minds.


I believe that these sentiments will resonate with all Catholics of good will and serious purpose. When we are called by God to oppose the evils of abortion or torture or terror, we need to remain civil and fair and attuned to the calm that comes from knowing that we fight the good fight. I have not always succeeded in this. But I do know that if we do not try to do better, in the passionate and righteous pursuit of peace and justice, we will advance neither one nor the other.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. This is why tools
like keyes did not want him to speak..because the graduates are hearing up close and personal that Prez Obama is an intelligent, thoughtful, caring human being.

The demonizing is all they have for their fundraising.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. Fundie heads will explode.
Obama is a New Testament Christian, most fundies are Old Testament Christians. All this "good works, charity, kindness, and service that moves hearts and minds" business is alien. Nothing but librul socialism.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. I never looked at it that way. Interesting, especially b/c
the OT is not their book. Meaning, the teachings are more applicable to Judaism than Christianity. Not that those teachings are never referenced in Christianity but overall and generally the NT teachings are more pertinent.
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Catshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I think you missed my point about fundies.
Their opposition to the gay is rooted in the OT. The vengeful god thing is also rooted there while the god of the NT is one of compassion and forgiveness. This makes the opposition of the RW to human services unBiblical, at least in the NT sense.
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Fire1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Gotcha.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Interesting way of thinking about it
Also the modern liberal mainline Christian idea that doubt is as important as faith. The OT fundie Christianity is a Christianity without doubt -- and that therefore does not tolerate dissent and difference.
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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. But isn't there a small problem with papal infallibility?
Somebody who knows better can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the whole point of papal infallibility was that when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, he *is* claiming "to know with certainty what God has planned for us or what He asks of us" and that after that point there is no "moral and spiritual debate" and no "to universal rather than parochial principles."

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DatManFromNawlins Donating Member (640 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Pretty much
Edited on Mon May-18-09 05:29 AM by DatManFromNawlins
But no Pope has never done so regarding abortion. There have been about 7 ex cathedra declarations, the last one regarding the supposed assumption of Mary. Popes generally only perform such a deed when there is some nonsensical dogmatic thing that the church wants to promote that they do not have the backing of scripture to support them. They basically use it to end debate on the matter.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-17-09 07:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. saying "the evils of abortion" puts the lie to the rest of the philosophizing..........
"When we are called by God to oppose the evils of abortion or torture or terror, we need to remain civil and fair and attuned to the calm that comes from knowing that we fight the good fight. I have not always succeeded in this."

The MF just FAILED at "this" in the same breath, with "the evils of abortion." :wow:


"And within our vast democracy, this doubt should remind us to persuade through reason, through an appeal whenever we can to universal rather than parochial principles, and most of all through an abiding example of good works, charity, kindness, and service that moves hearts and minds."

Not a clue.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Abortion is a necessary evil.
Edited on Mon May-18-09 08:58 AM by Odin2005
I know that will get my head bitten off by some posters who think it should be a sacrament. Given that I was born 2 months premature and was told straight out by my parents that had there been a test for Autism in 1985 like there now is a test for Down's Syndrome they would have aborted me gives me a right to not be whole-hog pro-choice.
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Times have changed, as have circumstances to know
if a fetus can exist outside the Mothers womb. Adoption is the option. If the mothers life is not in danger, and the fetus has reached viability.. can live outside the womb..and since both birth and abortion are traumatic surgeries. Why not opt for the child.

At that juncture, the mother who is not ready to be a mother, should have the freedom to give the child up for adoption with no strings attached, and the child have a chance at its own existence.

28, 42, 64 cells do not equal a developed human life..but a viable fetus, is a living being..

Science has moved us further along that continuum of how early a fetus is viable.. and we do need to have these discussions.

I am at peace with that
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. That's fine. Doesn't change the writer's hypocrisy with saying "evils of abortion."
And if you're stuck on how it affects only you, you need to learn more about the whole issue.

We're glad you're here, O2. :hi:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Don't worry, I'm not stuck on how it only effects me, it's just that the issue has troubled me for..
...a long time, it's a huge issue at this Asperger's message board I post at:

http://aspiesforfreedom.com

One one hand I am for choice and yet on the other I don't want eugenics through the back door via social pressure to abort children considered "not normal".
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-18-09 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. doesn't put the lie to what Obama said in his speech, however.
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