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This is what President Obama proposes to do with Gitmo detainees

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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:44 PM
Original message
This is what President Obama proposes to do with Gitmo detainees
There is so much misinformation and misunderstanding that it's clear many have not taken the time or effort to read or listen to the President's speech so they can understand his position. Well here is exactly what he will do with the detainees. If you want to understand it, you have to read it. You can't go by what the summary given on a quick news blurb or blog.

We are currently in the process of reviewing each of the detainee cases at Guantanamo to determine the appropriate policy for dealing with them. As we do so, we are acutely aware that under the last Administration, detainees were released only to return to the battlefield. That is why we are doing away with the poorly planned, haphazard approach that let those detainees go in the past. Instead, we are treating these cases with the care and attention that the law requires and our security demands. Going forward, these cases will fall into five distinct categories.

First, when feasible, we will try those who have violated American criminal laws in federal courts - courts provided for by the United States Constitution. Some have derided our federal courts as incapable of handling the trials of terrorists. They are wrong. Our courts and juries of our citizens are tough enough to convict terrorists, and the record makes that clear. Ramzi Yousef tried to blow up the World Trade Center - he was convicted in our courts, and is serving a life sentence in U.S. prison. Zaccarias Moussaoui has been identified as the 20th 9/11 hijacker - he was convicted in our courts, and he too is serving a life sentence in prison. If we can try those terrorists in our courts and hold them in our prisons, then we can do the same with detainees from Guantanamo.

Recently, we prosecuted and received a guilty plea from a detainee - al-Marri - in federal court after years of legal confusion. We are preparing to transfer another detainee to the Southern District of New York, where he will face trial on charges related to the 1998 bombings of our embassies in Kenya and Tanzania - bombings that killed over 200 people. Preventing this detainee from coming to our shores would prevent his trial and conviction. And after over a decade, it is time to finally see that justice is served, and that is what we intend to do.

The second category of cases involves detainees who violate the laws of war and are best tried through Military Commissions. Military commissions have a history in the United States dating back to George Washington and the Revolutionary War. They are an appropriate venue for trying detainees for violations of the laws of war. They allow for the protection of sensitive sources and methods of intelligence-gathering; for the safety and security of participants; and for the presentation of evidence gathered from the battlefield that cannot be effectively presented in federal Courts.


Now, some have suggested that this represents a reversal on my part. They are wrong. In 2006, I did strongly oppose legislation proposed by the Bush Administration and passed by the Congress because it failed to establish a legitimate legal framework, with the kind of meaningful due process and rights for the accused that could stand up on appeal. I did, however, support the use of military commissions to try detainees, provided there were several reforms. And those are the reforms that we are making.

Instead of using the flawed Commissions of the last seven years, my Administration is bringing our Commissions in line with the rule of law. The rule will no longer permit us to use as evidence statements that have been obtained using cruel, inhuman, or degrading interrogation methods. We will no longer place the burden to prove that hearsay is unreliable on the opponent of the hearsay. And we will give detainees greater latitude in selecting their own counsel, and more protections if they refuse to testify. These reforms - among others - will make our Military Commissions a more credible and effective means of administering justice, and I will work with Congress and legal authorities across the political spectrum on legislation to ensure that these Commissions are fair, legitimate, and effective.

The third category of detainees includes those who we have been ordered released by the courts. Let me repeat what I said earlier: this has absolutely nothing to do with my decision to close Guantanamo. It has to do with the rule of law. The courts have found that there is no legitimate reason to hold twenty-one of the people currently held at Guantanamo. Twenty of these findings took place before I came into office. The United States is a nation of laws, and we must abide by these rulings.

The fourth category of cases involves detainees who we have determined can be transferred safely to another country. So far, our review team has approved fifty detainees for transfer. And my Administration is in ongoing discussions with a number of other countries about the transfer of detainees to their soil for detention and rehabilitation.

Finally, there remains the question of detainees at Guantanamo who cannot be prosecuted yet who pose a clear danger to the American people.

I want to be honest: this is the toughest issue we will face. We are going to exhaust every avenue that we have to prosecute those at Guantanamo who pose a danger to our country. But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who have received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, commanded Taliban troops in battle, expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States.

As I said, I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people. Al Qaeda terrorists and their affiliates are at war with the United States, and those that we capture - like other prisoners of war - must be prevented from attacking us again. However, we must recognize that these detention policies cannot be unbounded. That is why my Administration has begun to reshape these standards to ensure they are in line with the rule of law. We must have clear, defensible and lawful standards for those who fall in this category. We must have fair procedures so that we don't make mistakes. We must have a thorough process of periodic review, so that any prolonged detention is carefully evaluated and justified.

I know that creating such a system poses unique challenges. Other countries have grappled with this question, and so must we. But I want to be very clear that our goal is to construct a legitimate legal framework for Guantanamo detainees - not to avoid one. In our constitutional system, prolonged detention should not be the decision of any one man. If and when we determine that the United States must hold individuals to keep them from carrying out an act of war, we will do so within a system that involves judicial and congressional oversight. And so going forward, my Administration will work with Congress to develop an appropriate legal regime so that our efforts are consistent with our values and our Constitution.



Here is the rest of the speech

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/21/obama-national-archives-s_n_206189.html

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. You may not get any responses, cause it is a long read.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yes imagine posting informed views on issues
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HopeOverFear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. And as we well know, some people around here don't like to read.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. Obama says he wants to hold people without trial.
"Finally, there remains the question of detainees at Guantanamo who cannot be prosecuted yet who pose a clear danger to the American people."

How does that quote prove any of his critics wrong?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Creative editing. like that
is why everyone needs to spend the time and effort to read the whole thing. That way you can see exactly what he proposes to do, which is far more complex that your short blurb would lead (or mislead) people to believe.
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Voice for Peace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. Thanks NJ for this post. Until now all I've seen is short blurbs & bites &
expressions of outrage. This was very helpful. :fistbump:
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. You're welcome
:hi:
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
53. Why don't you explain
how Eric is wrong? There is no other way to read Obama's intentions. He plans on keeping people in prison who cannot otherwise be convicted.

The entire framework is a crock. It is an outline for a system that can guarantee convictions in most case...

1) Have enough evidence to convict in U.S. courts? Door #1!

2) Not enough evidence to convict in U.S. courts but enough under looser military commissions rules? Door #2!

3) Ordered by the courts to release? Door #3!

4) Another country willing to prosecute? Door #4!

5) None of the above? Door #5!
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. You, like Rachel Maddow and others, are cherry-picking parts that make him look like Bush...
Edited on Fri May-22-09 02:07 PM by jenmito
Why pick out that one sentence instead of putting it in context? He follows that sentence with this:

I want to be honest: this is the toughest issue we will face. We are going to exhaust every avenue that we have to prosecute those at Guantanamo who pose a danger to our country. But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who have received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, commanded Taliban troops in battle, expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States.

As I said, I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people. Al Qaeda terrorists and their affiliates are at war with the United States, and those that we capture - like other prisoners of war - must be prevented from attacking us again. However, we must recognize that these detention policies cannot be unbounded. That is why my Administration has begun to reshape these standards to ensure they are in line with the rule of law. We must have clear, defensible and lawful standards for those who fall in this category. We must have fair procedures so that we don't make mistakes. We must have a thorough process of periodic review, so that any prolonged detention is carefully evaluated and justified.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. There are a few reasons, usually it involves a personal agenda
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. I agree. And I notice the posters don't come back to respond when the facts are presented to them.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
54. They cannot be in line with the rule of law
unless the law is changed.

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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
6. Until the plan is actually in place
I'll reserve judgement.

We've all heard politicians making statements about what they were going to do, and then were disappointed as they failed to deliver.

Seems to me as if the President isn't too keen on making a decision himself:

"In our constitutional system, prolonged detention should not be the decision of any one man. If and when we determine that the United States must hold individuals to keep them from carrying out an act of war, we will do so within a system that involves judicial and congressional oversight. And so going forward, my Administration will work with Congress to develop an appropriate legal regime so that our efforts are consistent with our values and our Constitution."

He wants the other 2 branches to climb out on that limb with him, that way if things go badly no one can point the finger at the other two branches, and if it goes well everyone gets a pat on the back.

So, how do you create a new legal regime that doesn't violate the US Constitution?


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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I don't have a problem with people that want to reserve judgment
I have a problem with people passing judgment with out having any idea what they are passing their judgment on.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:03 PM
Response to Original message
8. I have read it
Despite your snarky assumptions about my reading comprehension and due dilligence, I hate to inform you that I have read it. The issue of prolonged detention is left extremely vague. But there is one thing that is very clear. If he could prosecute them, he would, but he can't, so he won't, he'll hang on to 'em anyone. Yes, he'll set up a very elaborate system for review, that's the age old management method of "spreading the blame". He wants to involve as many folks as he can in the decision so that no one can claim they weren't involved. But in the end it means holding people against their will, without trial, indefinitely. Otherwise they'd be in one of the other categories.


Look, I don't mind if folks want to defend this policy. Just don't try to pretend it doesn't exist. They're either going to get a trial, or not (military commision or otherwise). And if youj can't see that YOU aren't reading. He clearly lays out that some will be tried, some will be released, some will get military commisions, and some will be outside of those possibilities. But he's gonna hang on to 'em anyway. He'll give it all the appearance of a trial he can. He'll involve everyone he can. But in the end they're not getting a trial because he knows we can't win. But we'll hold 'em anyway.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:04 PM
Original message
We have done the same thing with prisoners of every other war we faught
we held them until the war was over so they couldn't rejoin their side and continue attacking us.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
56. There have always been and will always be
terrorists. Thus, it is a war without end. Utterly Orwellian proposal to hold people as prisoners of war in a war that will never end.

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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. We have done the same thing with prisoners of every other war we faught
we held them until the war was over so they couldn't rejoin their side and continue attacking us.
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zipplewrath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
29. This ain't Hogan's Heros
If you think these guys are wearing uniforms, saluting, and giving name rank and serial number, you don't understand who we are holding here. We'd take those guys back to the prisons in Afghanistan if that was the only problem.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. As Obama has said there are prisoners that have no problem
publicly stating their allegiance or position as anti American combatants.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
57. So, a person can receive a life sentence
for merely sympathizing with America's enemies?
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
76. We'll just hold them until terrorism is over then?
Parroting the NeoCon "war on terror" meme doesn't make it a war.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
14. What do you do with people who pose a threat but have not committed a crime?
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. what constitutes "posing a threat"? who gets to decide?
Edited on Fri May-22-09 02:41 PM by ima_sinnic
can I now be arrested kidnapped for "posing a threat" because I go to an antiwar rally and shout slogans like "(name of president) has got to go!" (I do not wish to use Obama's name here because I would not want to shout that slogan as it is not how I feel, but anyone IS free to do so).
??
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Obama made it clear that no one person would decide
and that there would be plenty of legal safe guards in place
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. what is wrong with our existing laws? why can't the person be charged on the basis of EVIDENCE?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. What do you do with people
who publicly state they are members of Al Qaeda and that they hate America and will attack when they next get a chance to do so? If this person lived else where prior to capture and didn't commit any crimes, but says they will, what do you charge them with?
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. I guess you can't charge them with anything, can you?
people talk shit all the time but that is not against the Law.
That is the way the Law works. It is not perfect, but thank god for it. Otherwise, everybody's thoughts would be "on trial."
They can gather evidence that the person engaged in conspiracy, bought bomb materials, had a well-thought-out-plan that they discussed with others and were heard repeating in wiretaps. Then they can present that evidence after actually charging the person with the crime of conspiring to blow up things and make an attack. Then a court of law can decide whether there is a reasonable doubt of the person's guilt, and whether the evidence was gathered impartially and fairly./
Otherwise, they can take their idea of using the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions, and a thousand years of habeas corpus as toilet paper and shove it.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. OK you let some of those people go
because "people talk shit all the time". Then they turn around and kill a thousand innocent Americans. Then what? You weren't a very good President were you?
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. well, then, round up everybody who talks shit, because people DO walk all the time
and later commit a crime, either because the evidence against them was tainted, or there was no evidence to begin with. It's an imperfect system, but it it is the LAW. So now let's throw out the law and start kidnapping people because of what they MIGHT do.
It might be "reviewed" and "regulated" and "applied fairly" under Obama, but what about the next president, who (god forbid) might be a bloodsucking republican. What if Bush had had this "new law" at his disposal? would that be all right?
We are either a "nation of laws," or NOT.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. He didn't do the round up and these people are in custody
As he said, he was left of big mess by the Bush Administration. You have to deal with what you got, that's the problem with being President, you can't pick and chose which issues you want to deal with.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #38
46. he can examine the EVIDENCE against them and apply the existing LAWS
if evidence is tainted, the case has to be thrown out, no matter what the person "might" do.

why the hell isn't he concerned about the torturers who created this mess? why do THEY get a pass, but people who were rounded up and made insanely murderous by torture not even charged with anything but held ILLEGALLY for years?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. He isn't talking about a lack of evidence
he is talking about warriors that are a clear and present danger. Terrorists that the existing laws do not provide a proper means of addressing
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. Give me a scenerio.
If there is no lack of evidence, then why not prosecute? There are thousands of laws that deal with crime. What could a terrorist do that could possibly slip through?
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. Last I checked we the idea of prison was for people who actually committed crimes.
We don't hold people for crimes they may commit. At least we didn't used to.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. We have kept POWs in prisons plenty of times
Edited on Fri May-22-09 03:19 PM by NJmaverick
and those POWs hadn't committed any crimes.
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. As this is not a war nor have we bothered to behave as though they are in fact POW's
(because we damn sure couldn't torture them if they were) Using the POW argument is specious on your part. It has nothing to do with this argument and my point still stands. Imprisonment is for people who have been convicted of crimes. Not for people we have no idea what to do with otherwise.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. but this is a war. We have an organization that actively working
to harm us. There is nothing specious about the inconvient truth (at least for your position) that we face the same situation. Just as you don't release POWs because they will return to their former occupation of attacking and killing Americans, the US would be foolish to release terrorists who state they have the same intentions.
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
62. There is a war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Terrorist activities are not warfare. They are crimes. Every single nation understood this, including the U.S., until Bush declared his war on terror without consent of Congress. We can throw around the word "war" when we referring to tactics against terrorism (or drugs, or poverty) but it doesn't make it war.
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hugo_from_TN Donating Member (895 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #45
63. I think the solution is to declare them to be POWs.
If we need an act of war from Congress - ask for it. Some of these people have committed no 'crime', but have avowed support for AQ and pledged to do harm to the US. Hold them as POWs with all the rights that POWs normally have.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. In his speech he gave these examples
Examples of that threat include people who have received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, commanded Taliban troops in battle, expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans.

Do you let these people go?
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. if there is no evidence that they are engaging in illegal activity, yes
"expressing allegiance" to OBL is not a crime, for one thing.

and the other examples are engagement in war. Why doesn't he officially declare a state of war? Then the rules of war would apply and they could be held as POWs.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. We captured and detained people in other wars
we held them until the war was over, no trials, just detained them indefinately. The reason we did that was so that they wouldn't return to their old occupation of attacking America and Americans. I think the same logic applies in this conflict as well.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #30
47. So let them go
Ok

Congress declares war.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. Easy for you to say, you wouldn't bear the burden or responsibility
for the thousands (or more Americans) they will attempt to kill (and very well may succeed). That's the burden our President carries.
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ellacott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. I'm on your side
I don't think letting them go is a good option but it's the only solution that seems acceptable to some people. That's why I said Ok(as in whatever).
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #51
71. By that logic
we'd never let anyone out of prison for any crime, because they might commit it, or a worse crime, again. And the legislatures and chief executives would be responsible for those horrors. So why don't they just lock up forever everyone who's every committed a crime or even threatened to commit a crime?
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Luminous Animal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
65. 2 of those are "thought crimes"
Another situation clearly deserves POW status and release when we retreat from our invasion of Iraq and the last is preventive detention; that is, detaining a person on the supposition that he or she may commit a crime.

I patently reject indefinite imprisonment based on presumption of guilt without trial.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
74. Yes.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. if someone is "posing a threat," why don't the rules of evidence apply?
Edited on Fri May-22-09 02:48 PM by ima_sinnic
they just busted 4 "terrorists" who were plotting to blow up things--I presume they have EVIDENCE of this plot. These people pose a threat, yet they have not committed a crime, and they have been arrested according to the LAW of habeas corpus, Miranda warnings, etc.
why should it be any different for anybody else?
apparently, the president is now free to say someone is "posing a threat," but only because he says so.
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. If you read the whole thing you'd see it would NOT be "only because he says so."
Try reading past the line you quoted.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I heard the speech and have read it. He did not explain why anybody
could not be convicted of a crime on the basis of evidence. It's all hype for unconstitutional, illegal kidnapping of people.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. What law do you convict a foreign national who is plotting an attack on the US?
What happens if you release a dangerous unrepentant terrorist who then turns around and kills a 1000 Americans? These are all complex and difficult issues.
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. you mean, no evidence exists whatsoever that can be presented in a court of law?
out of the blue, he secretly devises this plan? he didn't talk with anyone, didn't conspire, didn't buy bomb materials, did nothing at all to arouse suspicion?

and what is a "dangerous unrepentant terrorist"? why would he be "released"? because, say, he was tortured? I guess he shouldn't have been tortured, now, should he? what happens if you release a dangerous, unrepentant torturer who then turns around and tortures 1000 human beings?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Like soldiers engaged in war
they are a threat to the US, but they have not committed any crime
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. That's pretty much it. So many people seem unwilling to
engage in the same complex thinking that Obama has applied to the situation. So many have a philosphy of, "if it can't be said in one or two sentences it's not worth considering".
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. You flatter yourself if you think your agreement with Obama is because you engage in
complex thinking. There's precious little that's complex about sycophancy.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Well I guess if you can't follow his complex views
you can fall back on your one or two sentence insults. Oh wait, you already have. :eyes:
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Raineyb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #48
61. I follow him perfectly. I just happen to think he's wrong.
You're the one who decided to insult everyone by accusing those who disagree with Obama of not being able to follow his complex thinking. That you don't like my insult means precious little to me. I generally find sycophants rather tiresome. You're no exception.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #20
72. Oh, yes...the president promises
that there will be all kinds of oversight, so that no one's rights will be abused. Goody, goody. And what if, after the program is in place, he decides it's too dangerous to keep that promise? There is absolutely nothing to prevent that. Will the infinite detainees have full access to lawyers and the court system so that those promises can actually be checked and enforced, or will we have to simply rely on the word of one person? If the president could really determine all by himself and with a high degree of certainty who was guilty and needed to be locked up, then we'd have no need for courts, now would we?
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. It seems pretty clear that Obama will have judicial review
to ensure that people are really posing a threat and they are not just there by Presidential decree
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. there is no need for this new, separate, detention for "threat"
we have laws in place that have resulted in the incarceration of plotters and schemers who never really did anything, but they were found guilty of conspiracy to do things.
If he can't explain why evidence of "threat" is not necessary, then I call bullshit. The rule of law and habeas corpus served humankind well for over a thousand years--now all of a sudden, it's not "good enough"?
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
59. You said that he claimed he could detain people just because he said so.
When pointed out that you were wrong if you read the rest of what he said, you changed the subject.
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skepticscott Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
73. No, the only thing that's clear
is that he's vaguely promising something like that. But since what he's proposing defies the laws that are already in place requiring judicial review, why should we believe that what he proposes will end up being any less abusive? We have written laws precisely so that we don't have to rely on anyone one person's word about how people accused of crimes will be treated.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #18
68. because the evidence is tainted by having been got by torture...
that fact makes it inadmissable
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
27. I don't agree with tribunals for multiple reasons
- no convictions so far
- anyone can say they are Al Qaeda, and I think Bush just swept people up
- the torture privision is admirable, but the cases are already too tainted as a result

That said, thank you for laying out the President's points in your thread. They are progress at least, and in the post-9/11 national security environment, it's not unlikely that a President would be cautious.

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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. You're welcome. You know I think we all have to get use to having an intelligent
and complex President, who's ideas and positions can't be neatly fitted into sound bites. After 8 years of having a President who's ideas and positions needed to be stretched to fit those short summarries, it's going to take some getting used to.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
35. The military lawyers who opposed the tribunals say not enough has been done to make them fair.
Edited on Fri May-22-09 03:14 PM by Captain Hilts
Reading the speech doesn't change that.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Obama did mention either else where in the speech
or in another speech that he would reform the tribunal system to have it properly fit with US law.
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mvd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
50. As I said, I oppose the trubunals/indefinite holding, but...
NJmaverick made the point that Obama is not done with his evaulation. This isn't a regular war, and that's another reason why I'm opposed. But we'll see what happens.
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. I agree we need to keep our options open on how to handle these folks.
But the opinion of the military lawyers who did not like the process under President Bush means a lot to me.

I'll stay tuned.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #50
75. It isn't a regular war because it isn't a war.
Parroting the NeoCon "war on terror" meme doesn't make it a war.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
64. Thank you. NT
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
66. K&R
:kick:
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
67. "those at Guantanamo ".. and those alone. No one else will have
evidence against them tainted by torture. There will be no future captives that fall under this category.

This situation happened because Bush & Cheney screwed the pooch by torturing them in the first place.

This is my most hopeful interpretation of the President's speech. I refuse to believe we will find ourselves in this situation again, providing there are consequences for those who did it the first time.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-22-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #67
69. That's what we were told about wiretapping, remember?
Edited on Fri May-22-09 10:51 PM by EFerrari
We were only wiretapping terrorists calling overseas.

I'm glad Rachel and CCR and Greenwald and others are vigorously questioning the idea of preventive detention. On Maher's show tonight, the historian John Meacham compared it to Lincoln suspending habeas and Roosevelt rounding up Japanese Americans.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. but it wasn't
"these 3 terrorists" and no future ones.

I fear the reading that everyone else has on this may be right.. But what I heard was that there were these specific prisoners, who's highly credible evidence is so badly tainted by the discontinued practice of torture that we can't try them. I hear that this category is a closed set, one that will not, because of the banning of torture, be added to.

I know that doesn't solve the problem of indefinite, trial-free, detention for these particular men. And I don't like it. And I understand that we haven't proven anything about them. And I don't know what they would or wouldn't do if they were freed. And I understand that this could provide precedent for some future, lawless, administration... God I hate this.

Bush should be hung, along with everyone else who has so badly damaged the body politic..
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-23-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #70
77. Except the idea of preventive detention is being floated for
future detainees, not the victims of Bush's torture program. So, not only is it being suggested that torture victims pay for it with their freedom but in addition, it's being suggested that in the future, preventive detention be used for people who have yet to be picked up.

There is no justification for keeping victims of Bush's torture in custody -- besides the fact that it allows America to focus on what these men might do instead of what we've done to them. I would call it self-serving but that's too mild a term for the willingness to destroy the lives of others in order to avoid admitting to such barbarity.

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