A rambling response to: ‘Why all the anger against gay people for standing up for themselves?’

I know, no need to remind me, this is none of my business, but here goes….this is partly a response to Ruggerson’s thread (‘Why all the anger against gay people for standing up for themselves?’), partly a general long-winded ramble.

As I always say, I’m just an outsider looking in, so I have very limited rights when it comes to commenting on this Presidency. I should probably just restrict myself to thinking about Obama’s foreign policy – which, as a foreigner, effects me - and puppy photos.

But any way, the DU wars over gay rights and how they are or are not being addressed by the President made me think.

Ruggerson asked ‘Why all the anger against gay people for standing up for themselves?’

And good God, there has been so much anger!

I think – I could be wrong - I understand the anger from the ‘pro-Obama’ side.

There are so many people, in the U.S. and beyond, for whom Obama’s election was thrilling beyond words, for lots of obvious reasons. For me, it just made me feel like anything was, after all, possible, because I never believed something like this would happen in my lifetime. If that makes me a fan girl, so be it.

But not all of these DUers are cheerleaders or worshipers, they are good people – many of them going through the crappiest of times, financially and otherwise - who just crave a fresh, thoughtful and just leadership. And much as us Europeans might resent it, that leadership – or lack of it – usually starts in the White House.

Needless to say, you should never invest too much hope in a politician, they tend to let you down, but is hoping for better days under this Presidency really a brainless thing, as us ‘cheerleaders’ are constantly told?

Is trying to support him, when he is under constant attack from the virulent right, really that hard to understand? That’s not cheerleading, that’s standing by one of your own, in the hope that sticking with him will encourage him to do all – or most – of the right things.

Please Ruggerson, try to understand why the persistent and often vicious attacks on Obama and those who passionately support him and wish him well upset people around here.

Look, I know, as the puppy-photo poster I’m not in a great position to be taken seriously here, and at the time of the Rick Warren controversy I well and truly lost my head and posted stuff that I will be eternally ashamed of. I just couldn’t understand then why anyone would try to piss on our joy, but I do now.

The GLBT community has, to DU’s shame, been widely shunned, dismissed and ridiculed in recent times, and no one, believe me, has had more negative thoughts about that community than me after reading the incessant attacks on Obama. I HATED the constant negativity – and still do – and there are posters who are so utterly vile and personally vicious towards decent fellow Duers I’m never quite sure how they live with themselves.

But we’ve told you to have more patience, we’ve told you you are whiners, we’ve basically told you to shut the fuck up and stop spoiling our party. That is indefensible, no community on our planet should be treated like that, not least one that is simply asking for basic civil rights.

DU, and I put myself top of the list, needs to remember that, and needs to understand your anger and frustration. If that sounds patronising I apologise, I don’t mean it to. I just try to imagine myself in your position, reading this stuff, and I know my head would explode with rage.

And I think that’s the thing, I think we all need to imagine ourselves in each other’s position, the ‘hopeful cheerleaders’ versus those campaigning for basic civil rights. Ultimately, I believe most of us are on the same side, but anger has separated us. So, we abuse each other endlessly because we insult and hurt each other endlessly. ‘Worshipers’ v ‘whiners’.

I promise you, I will never, ever again dismiss the anger or frustration of a member of the GLBT community, people like you have helped educate me. I still believe that Obama will come good for you because, even though he’s but a politician, I sincerely believe he knows right from wrong. But if he fails you, he fails me.

Right, I’ll go back to posting photos of puppies and the like, it’s a more comfortable territory for me. I wish you all the best.

It takes courage to search one's soul and heart and put it out there.

I know we're all on the same side at the end of the day even when we argue bitterly.

Thank you for ALL of your contributions!

:hug:

Jackeens, and right on target. I've been thinking about this all night and here you are with a post that articulates a lot of what I'm feeling.

Thank you.

That was a thoughtful rant post and one that all of us would do well to remember.

It expressed my feelings as well as anything could and better than I could express them myself.

I count myself among the cheerleaders. I still have faith in Obama. I believe he will do the right thing.

But if he fails to do so I will be disappointed in him.

:hug:

:thumbsup:

I don't even think many people care where the Pro-Obama people may be coming from and to see we even have a Pro vs. Anti (I'm presuming due to the use of Pro) side is ridiculous. There are a lot of assumptions and because I've continuously received the same accusations. I've come to see that there are some cruel and disgusting people on this board who want to make things about themselves. That only they could understand because I may not agree with all their points---because of course if I don't agree then I'm not on their side. Ugh...now I make them sound similar to Cheney's, "if you're not with us, you're against us" but that is the impression I've been given without them knowing a thing about me.

Thanks for the post Jackeens...it's appreciated. :hug: :kick: :fistbump: :yourock:

not because of what you wrote. but it is easier to make crap up, like you did in that thread, than tell the truth. BTW it is against the rules to do what you did.

a minority?

Do you understand the equality fight that has been going on for as long as the nation has been a nation? I don't understand how so many claim to be involved in the fight for equality yet they are ignorant as to the equality laws and the fight for equality that has been waged by others for centuries?

Many here were very upset that the DOJ brief argued that same sex marriage should not be treated the same as race for equal protection arguments. I agree with the LGBT community, it should be treated the same as race equality and so too should gender equality. Equal protection under the law applies to all. We shouldn't have to fight for the Equal Rights Amendment but that fight has been ongoing for a very long time.

For decades the case law dealing with equality issues has been clear, there are three standards of what is referred to as "increasingly strict review" – race, national origin and religious affiliation. Only those, race, national origin and religious affiliation, receive the highest protection standard under the Equal Protection Clause. What this means is, most laws that infringe upon the rights of these 3 "protected classes" will be struck down.

Gender or sex discrimination is not treated as strictly as race. Cases involving gender/sex discrimination are afforded only an “intermediate” level of scrutiny/protection. There has only to be shown a "rational basis" for the law for it to be upheld.

Back on point, a female is a minority. Please try to understand and respect that fact. No names were mentioned in her post, she merely commented on the attack made on her. You are the one that took credit by responding as you have.

a female is a minority

Once again...

a female is a minority

I guess males are a minority too. Heck if we are going to throw math and definitions off the window: everybody is a minority!


There, we're all equal now.

There are actual cliques that sorta stick together and know things about one another. SOmeone just mentioned about something one poster wrote in a different segment and I thought - Wow, these folks really do keep up with one another. I couldn't tell you who likes who on DU, but apparently a lot of people can do that and I'm not sure how that makes me feel. It's nice that people care about each other like they seem to here and yet it is a bit creepy how some feuds are perpetuated here as well.

What I was gonna say about the GLBT thing is that when I came out a hundred years ago (late 70's) I thought I had to like every gay person I met. I was young and it seemed like some grand fraternity where we stuck up for one another, etc. That lasted about 6 months until I was eviscerated by an older (but not by much) but very bitter and nasty individual. And that's when the dawning began - gays are just like every one else - I'm gonna like some and , as it turns out, I'm really not going to like some others. On big issues, I suppose we have one voice - kinda- but that is when those issues are done, y'all should look at us just like every one else - people with all of the virtues and vices others have that you can rail against and laud; just don't think there is a gay mindset.

I think, sometimes to our surprise, that we all end up being educated by one another here. Maybe that's one of the main differences between us and rightwingers: we're actually open to it. Thanks for your heartfelt words.

but not because we don't care. When the whole gay marriage issue erupted under B*sh as a "moral values" deal, I was honestly taken aback by the virulence against it. It just seemed...logical that everyone should have these rights. Since then, I've gotten the best education from reading the threads here by the LGBT community and have an even deeper appreciation for the necessity of equal rights for all.

IOW, a lot of us are rooting for you and writing letters to the WH, etc., we just may not say much about it.

...is that it is THESE moments that we really learn from each other, not when we are hurling poo at one another.

Less talking about one's debate opponent, and more talking about one's own position would go a long way to keeping the didactic atmosphere intact.

President Obama's victory initiated a momentum where the celebrants and the LGBT community had to, by necessity, move in two somewhat different directions. It seems counterintuitive, but it's true.

When Republicans held power, the LGBT community could scream bloody murder, but it would never make much difference in the world.

With Democrats in power, we feel now that things could move in our favor. It's an opportunity, and it's a limited one. The pendulum will swing again to Republicans in time. Both sides like to talk about permanent majorities, but they just don't happen in history. Even if the Republican Party disintegrated tomorrow, something else would rise from its ashes representing the same conservative forces.

We have this slip of time, and as the first hundred days melted into the second, into six months, into . . . we began growing anxious. That anxiety was not helped by mixed signals from the President and those around him. All we have ever had are promises and tea leaves and lighter wallets. He says he supports us, he cavorts with known homophobes, he appoints a handful of gay individuals, he does nothing his first six months in office.

And ever that ticking clock.

That DOMA brief especially came like a drive-by egging while we were looking in the other direction, eyes on our watches. These federal "benefits" are the towel tossed to us from that same car making a return trip. It's not nearly enough to abrogate the offense.

We push because we can push when Democrats are in power. We push because we must push when liberalism is ascending. If we waste our opportunities now, we may find ourselves waiting another eight years. None of us are getting younger. In fact, as we get older, what happens with health benefits, pensions, and our children becomes an increasing source of anger and fear.

We've learned our lessons from the Clinton administration. If we cannot wait, we will not wait. We will push and fight and never ever back down, and we will hold Obama to account ever single second of every single day, because these are our lives.

It's an irony in our current politics. When who we want is in power, we then need to proceed to beat the crap out of them to get what we want. Clinton and Blue Dog Democrats taught us that lesson, and it has been well-learned.

We didn't start this twisted dance toward equality, but we're going to finish it. It sucks, but that's just how it has to be now.

excellent post Prism. :hug:

I've been steaming for days. I can't tell you how many posts I've started, but clicked the little X and just closed the browser because I couldn't take my own bitterness.

I'm not so much angry at having to wait; I've been waiting all my life and have patience to spare. I'm angry at having my intelligence insulted in any number of ways. I don't like being told one thing and then demonstrated by action something entirely different. I don't like being told my priorities are nonsensical. I don't like being reminded on a daily basis by people who should be on my side, and profess occasionally to be on my side, that I am still a second-class citizen or even some sort of subhuman, or even worse, at the ripe age of 52 (yesterday!) I am some sort of child who doesn't understand the costs either of waiting or of moving forward now.

I like it even less when the one person who professed so strongly during the presidential campaign to be a strong advocate for me and mine, who accepted my donations readily, who gave me "hope" and lots of pretty words has repeatedly -- repeatedly -- demonstrated that such trust has been misplaced. Even less than that do I like the hastily thrown dry bone of political expediency of a few benefits offered to GLBT federal employees. Gee, that covered, what? .00003% of our community. Color me underwhelmed. Again, don't insult the intelligence of our community, Mr Obama, nor should you overestimate the power of the nutwing, either. The incessant kowtowing to the nutwing-minority over the last 30 years has worn ever-so thin.

He could have made the extension of benefits an executive order, giving the directive some legacy, some permanency. No. He couldn't bring himself to do that, even though it was well within his power to do so. Only a memorandum, the power of which will die the day he leaves office. Which, if he keeps going at this rate, will be less than four years from now. I shudder to think what will come next.

The only thing that keeps me going is the relief that McKook didn't get elected. While Obama isn't doing us any favors, at least McKook's McCrazies aren't rounding us up into camps. I'm pretty sure they would have by now if the McFailin' bunch had gotten in.

I supported President Obama during the primaries and trusted that he understood our sentiments on a political level. I never expected nor thought he understood us on an emotional or personal level - not many people do even when they try. But as long as he knew the urgency of our political cause, I was willing to extend to him some patience and even overlook some of the more bothersome incidents like McClurkin and Warren.

A politician doesn't need to feel my pain, they need only work for my equality.

However, the DOMA briefing signalled that perhaps the administration might not even understand us on a political level. It was my personal "Wait a minute . . ." moment. The subsequent clumsiness and tone-deaf response over the past several days has confirmed for me that the administration knows the words but not the music.

Well, we didn't come here to see karaoke, we paid up for our seat at the table to witness a bit of political art. This administration needs a reminding of that. The jeering isn't the worst part. The worst thing, for President Obama's legacy and us, is what will happen if people start standing up and leaving the theater.

Edit: And happy birthday!

but I hung in because the alternative was ever so much worse.

What burns my arse like a three-foot flame is the rhetoric "I will be a strong advocate" for GLBT people when he has demonstrated time after time that he is exactly the opposite. Damn, President Obama, just be honest. I can take that. If you don't have time for me, don't accept my money and my vote, don't throw me pretty words to get them, then do everything in your power to thwart my full citizenship once you're in power.

That's what I'm pissed about.

I think that's what many of my LGBT brothers and sisters are pissed about, as well. We're sick of being used for our votes then thrown under the bus. What's so shocking about this go-round is that it was so soon; right up against election day.

Talk about not giving a damn about a core block that gets you over the top.

I hope he remembers this in 2012. We and our allies are the very difference between re-election and not. Dry, political-expediency, half-assed memos like what just came out are not satisfactory. In bald point of fact, that was a most unsatisfactory performance, to the point of insult.

Oh, and I shall continue to remind the President to whom I contributed everything I could and for whom I voted that I expect performance. This I will do just as I hold my congresscritters' feet to the fire. They most certainly know my name, from state-level up. If he wants to stick his chin out and like a spoiled brat say, "make me!", well, my dear, he hasn't counted on me. Imagine that grizzled old English teacher who made you stay after school until you decided handing in your homework was probably a good idea :)

And thank you for the kind wishes! It was a wonderful day, yes.

Thank you for your eloquence, passion, and lack of venom. You have opened windows.

Hekate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8481243&mesg_id=8481243

I appreciate everyone's thoughts and support =)

I was happy enough to recommend the OP, but this reply deserves to be the start of a new thread!

Ok that's where you lost me. You are either being disingenuous or wilfully ignorant.

I didn't mean his broader presidency. Sorry if my language wasn't clear.

keep pushing. But I don't think that means pushing GOP talking points while claiming to be a liberal. I'm not saying you did that but I have read posts on here from people complaining about him taking his wife out to a show ferchrissakes!

:bounce:

And in fact sometimes it helps when someone outside of the situation tells us how they see it.
And you must understand that this country has been steeped in fear, and anger for the last eight years and it has left it's scars on us.
And while I am sure Ireland has it's political intrigues I am also sure it has never raised to the level of crap that has gone on in this country.
We need you Jackeen and we love you for what you do.

I've saved this thread locally so that I can re-read them regularly.

Thanks for sharing your perspective. :kick:

A few more posts like this and we might wind up with an actual Political Party. Rule one about good parties, political and celebratory alike: it takes all kinds to really kick up the dust!
There is great power in goodwill. For all of us.

"I’m not in a great position to be taken seriously here,"

"I well and truly lost my head and posted stuff that I will be eternally ashamed of."

"So, we abuse each other endlessly because we insult and hurt each other endlessly."

"...there are posters who are so utterly vile and personally vicious towards decent fellow Duers I’m never quite sure how they live with themselves."

Having been falsely and maliciously accused of being a racist and a homophobe, I wonder that too.

I'm just sorry you felt a need to post this, that feel the need to defend your posts and your views in this way.

You are a good person and this is a wonderful post.

Is trying to support him, when he is under constant attack from the virulent right, really that hard to understand? That’s not cheerleading, that’s standing by one of your own, in the hope that sticking with him will encourage him to do all – or most – of the right things.

The right aren't around here. So coming here to support him against those attacks is pretty much preaching to the choir. So that kind of cheerleading is only heard by those folks who either agree with you, or those folks on the left that will see it as an attempt to avoid THEIR issues. So yeah, it's kinda hard to understand why you'd come here to do that.

Very nice. :kick:

My main position on this stuff is this:

I sincerely believe that Obama *WILL* do right by the LGBT community, and I get discouraged watching them turn away from him so fast. Really... 5 months is the blink of an eye in running the ship of state.

The DU LGBTers are skeptical, and think he does NOT have their best interests at heart. I think they've gotten so used to having government fail them, that they refuse to believe it will be different this time.


My counter to that is this: If by 2012, when he runs for re-election, Obama has not positively acted on your concerns... I'll be right with you.

I think he will do the right thing.


Since Obama's election, several states have legalized gay marriage. More are in the works. The dominoes are falling. Maybe it isn't as fast as it COULD be, but it is still a lot of progress in a short period of time.

It is inevitable. LGBT's WILL be allowed to marry in almost all, if not all, states within a decade. DOMA *WILL* be overturned - by the legislative branch, where it should be. DADT *WILL* be modified or eliminated before the next Presidential election.



ps. I'm still perplexed at how many DU LGBTers are pro-Clinton when it was Clinton who came up with DADT in the first place. But almost all of them are such staunch Clinton supporters. I don't get that.

but you still don't get it.

One thing I try to do as an ardent supporter of LGBT rights, and one who has attacked Obama for displaying bigotry, is to back up my statements and feelings with as much detail as possible. One point that we are often defending time and time again is why fighting for something as inconsequential as marriage rights is so important to the overall fight for civil rights, particularly in California where the Equal Protection clause seems to have less and less meaning as it becomes eroded with the blessing of the state supreme court.

One thing I can't stand is when DUers respond thoughtlessly with posts dismissing our concerns, and asking us to praise Obama without question. This forum has become an ideal place for discussing issues in the minutest of detail, but when debate turns into flamefests and popularity contests, that purpose is defeated.

now get back to the picture posts (KIDDING!)

Well I ain't never clicking on one of yer dang NONAmerican posts agin.

ETA: :thumbsup:

term according to wikipedia.

I guess that's OK.

As long as she doesn't smoke while breast feeding at the Olive Garden.

I don't know why anyone would be resentful of people asking for their rights.

... windows.

:applause:

Hekate

I don't think any of us have reached perfection yet. (Ok, I am close but I don't want anyone to feel too bad about where THEY are at so I don't mention it all that much.) We are all still learning. And I too thank DU for my learning curve on many issues as it has improved over the years in direct correlation to my reading here.

:hug:

Never fall in love with a politician.

Politicians are politicians -- no matter how good looking they are.

Obama is not your father, your brother, your prom date, or your coach. He is a politician. He wants money and he wants votes and will do and say what it takes to get those. If you expect any more, you will regret it.

I don't believe that his betrayal of the GLBT community was personal. It's just that he and his advisers sat down with a calculator and decided which course of action would get the most votes.

That's all.

And people who call themselves Democrats will either understand that or have a rude awakening.

History is full of people being mistreated -- but it begins with gender.
Women are the first humans oppressed and homophobia is akin to that anti-female discrimination
based on mythical "inferiority."

Native people everywhere -- but especially here where our government committed genocide -
as they stole their land, their spiritual beliefs, their languages and even the right to their
own children -- who were the true savages but our own government?

Africans enslaved in America - and African lands plundered - all for profit of the few.
Again, under the most brutal and murderous circumstances. Followed by 100 years more of
Segregation, Inc.

If Jews can be abused for their race and religion, so can any other ethnic group -- and anyone
else who wants to use their own free thought and their own conscience to decide for themselves
what is just and right.

So, if you're against prejudice and discrimination -- which is all simply exploitation for the
enrichment of the elite -- they there is no other choice but to stand and fight oppression of
homosexuals no matter where it occurs.

Why this isn't obvious to every Democrat here, I can't say. But it should be.
And Skinner has made clear that it MUST be.

I have never "attacked" Obama - or his supporters - on healthcare. I have never attacked them on the wars, on the economy, on the environment, or pretty much anything else. Do I disagree with them sometimes? Sure. But I know that on these and many other issues, there are valid view points that differ from mine, and they are entitled to believe as they wish.

But no one gets a pass on my rights.

Not you, not Obama, not his endless parade of cheerleaders and sycophants.

My rights are not something that Obama, or Congress, or the Supreme Court, or the good people of Pennsylvania must "grant" me. My rights are something to which I am entitled, and they are being DENIED me, by Obama, by Congress, by the Supreme Court, by the good people of Pennsylvania, and by all of you unempathetic fools who make excuses for them.

Not a ONE of you would be willing to wait 5 months for rights that were denied you, rights that others freely enjoy. Not a ONE of you hypocrites would give up your rights until me and mine have ours. And yet you feel free to tell us to be patient, to stop being angry, to stop "attacking" the man who promised to repeal DOMA and DADT, and provide fair employment insurance and hate crime protection, and who has only stepped BACKWARD instead of forward on any of these issues.

How disgusting to hear you prattle on about "5 months". How sickening to hear you whine that he's just the President, and his hands are tied. How aggravating to hear your excuses for the things he's done and the things he's not done, while you sit there witlessly enjoying the privileges that should also be mine by right.

HERE'S what Obama COULD have done in "5 months", all by his helpless self:

Stop the investigation and discharge of gay service members
Loudly praised the recent gains in Iowa and New Hampshire
Loudly booed the recent setback in California
Lifted the ban on gay men giving blood
Introduced legislation to repeal DOMA, and pressured Congress to pass it
Introduced legislation to repeal DADT, and pressured Congress to pass it
Pressured Congress to move forward with ENDA
Pressured Congress to move forward with the Matthew Shepard Act
Denounced the DoJ brief, which defends DOMA with the most debasing arguments imaginable and the strongest arguments against any further civil rights gains.

Instead, here's what he's DONE:

Signed a UN resolution declaring that homosexuality is not illegal (and many of you suggested in all sincerity that we should be GRATEFUL for that. "GRATEFUL" that our country, which is supposed to lead the free world, doesn't consider homosexuality illegal.)
Signed a memo to give gay federal employees limited rights for the remainder of his term.

That's it.

How dare you condemn my anger at Obama, or my anger at anyone who chooses to defend him. On gay issues, he is literally indefensible. He has done NOTHING to move this country forward on civil rights, and clearly does not INTEND to do so.

How dare you judge ME and mine for the lack of effort this president has expended on us? Who the hell do you think you are? If it were up to people like you, segregation would be thriving in this country still. People like you who excuse the inexcusable, who tolerate the intolerable. People who will ALWAYS find one more reason to step back from equality. "It's only been 5 months, give him time." "He's got to fix healthcare, and the economy, and the wars." "It's too close to the 2010 midterms, it will have to wait til after." "He's got to get re-elected, it'll have to wait until his second term."

You would NEVER tolerate such bullshit used to justify denying you your rights, and yet you feel perfectly fine using it to deny me mine. What shameless ignorance.

ANYONE defending Obama on civil rights is as much of a cowardly hypocrite as he is. And boy, does it make you furious when you're called on it.

Well, you shouldn't be angry at us. You should be angry at the people contributing to the problem, the people enabling this bigotry and injustice, with their misplaced allegiance and blind loyalty. Those are the people who deserve your anger. You can find them in the mirror.

"Not a ONE of you would be willing to wait 5 months for rights that were denied you, rights that others freely enjoy. Not a ONE of you hypocrites would give up your rights until me and mine have ours."

Clinton and Bush put together.

Change is sometimes incremental.

The rest of the country is far ahead of Obama on gay issues. The GLBT community have realized this. You - and Obama - are the ones who need the realization.

Please stop enabling cowardice.

I know we're out there... somewhere... been there, done that...

lol, just joking.

but seriously, i had no idea you were based in Europe - which, for some reason, makes me appreciate your photoassays even more! :)


thanks anyway, and please keep on hoping. your enthusiasm is contagious!

I freely admit that I have not been on the Obama bandwagon, but this is one area he should know better than to fuck up.

Equality is a Constitutional right.

There is no gray area here.

Does Obama, as the first black president, really want to leave this kind of legacy?

That's what he should be thinking about instead of playing politics and worrying about re-election.

I understand that the GLBT community has a lot to complain about. Even I can see that the progress towards equal rights is painfully slow, and I'm on the outside looking in.

However, the one thing that always comes to mind when I see President Obama being bashed over not doing enough is the fact that he's doing SOMETHING. If McCain had won the election, do you think ANY progress would be taking place right now? I don't think so. McCain would be too busy trying to please his "base" to make any forward moves on GLBT rights.

I don't see myself as a "cheerleader" for Obama. But I do understand that he inherited a huge mess, and he can only do so much right now. After he gets reelected in 2012, he won't need to worry about his future so much, and we'll see if he keeps his promises then.

Another reason to push back equality.

Pretty presumptuous to think Obama's got a second term in him without the gay vote, though. Just what do you think his margin of victory over McCain WAS?

If you want to vote him out of office in 2012, go ahead.

I'm sure the GOP will tell you whatever you want to hear and then do even less to help you.

Save your hatred for other people. I'm not your enemy.

And please explain to me how the GOP could do "less" to help us.

Attacking a perfect stranger online because you are mad at the President just makes no sense to me. I want you to have the rights you deserve, and I don't deserve your anger.

That's not support.

If you make apologies for Obama, you can share the blame for his inaction.

:kick: