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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 10:55 PM
Original message
Stratfor Declares Iran Revolt Has Failed
Moderators: Stratfor explicitly allows for its material to be posted in full to other web sites (see bottom of story). Their link is www.stratfor.com

These guys are generally considered conservative/realpolitik, but I usually find their analyses trenchant. Here's what they said today:

June 22, 2009

By George Friedman


The Iranian Election and the Revolution Test

Successful revolutions have three phases. First, a strategically located single or limited segment of society begins vocally to express resentment, asserting itself in the streets of a major city, usually the capital. This segment is joined by other segments in the city and by segments elsewhere as the demonstration spreads to other cities and becomes more assertive, disruptive and potentially violent. As resistance to the regime spreads, the regime deploys its military and security forces. These forces, drawn from resisting social segments and isolated from the rest of society, turn on the regime, and stop following the regime’s orders.
This is what happened to the Shah of Iran in 1979; it is also what happened in Russia in 1917 or in Romania in 1989.

Revolutions fail when no one joins the initial segment, meaning the initial demonstrators are the ones who find themselves socially isolated. When the demonstrations do not spread to other cities, the demonstrations either peter out or the regime brings in the security and military forces — who remain loyal to the regime and frequently personally hostile to the demonstrators — and use force to suppress the rising to the extent necessary. This is what happened in Tiananmen Square in China: The students who rose up were not joined by others. Military forces who were not only loyal to the regime but hostile to the students were brought in, and the students were crushed.

A Question of Support

This is also what happened in Iran this week. The global media, obsessively focused on the initial demonstrators — who were supporters of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s opponents — failed to notice that while large, the demonstrations primarily consisted of the same type of people demonstrating. Amid the breathless reporting on the demonstrations, reporters failed to notice that the uprising was not spreading to other classes and to other areas. In constantly interviewing English-speaking demonstrators, they failed to note just how many of the demonstrators spoke English and had smartphones. The media thus did not recognize these as the signs of a failing revolution.

Later, when Ayatollah Ali Khamenei spoke Friday and called out the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, they failed to understand that the troops — definitely not drawn from what we might call the “Twittering classes,” would remain loyal to the regime for ideological and social reasons. The troops had about as much sympathy for the demonstrators as a small-town boy from Alabama might have for a Harvard postdoc. Failing to understand the social tensions in Iran, the reporters deluded themselves into thinking they were witnessing a general uprising. But this was not St. Petersburg in 1917 or Bucharest in 1989 — it was Tiananmen Square.

In the global discussion last week outside Iran, there was a great deal of confusion about basic facts. For example, it is said that the urban-rural distinction in Iran is not critical any longer because according to the United Nations, 68 percent of Iranians are urbanized. This is an important point because it implies Iran is homogeneous and the demonstrators representative of the country. The problem is the Iranian definition of urban — and this is quite common around the world — includes very small communities (some with only a few thousand people) as “urban.” But the social difference between someone living in a town with 10,000 people and someone living in Tehran is the difference between someone living in Bastrop, Texas and someone living in New York. We can assure you that that difference is not only vast, but that most of the good people of Bastrop and the fine people of New York would probably not see the world the same way. The failure to understand the dramatic diversity of Iranian society led observers to assume that students at Iran’s elite university somehow spoke for the rest of the country.

Tehran proper has about 8 million inhabitants; its suburbs bring it to about 13 million people out of Iran’s total population of 70.5 million. Tehran accounts for about 20 percent of Iran, but as we know, the cab driver and the construction worker are not socially linked to students at elite universities. There are six cities with populations between 1 million and 2.4 million people and 11 with populations of about 500,000. Including Tehran proper, 15.5 million people live in cities with more than 1 million and 19.7 million in cities greater than 500,000. Iran has 80 cities with more than 100,000. But given that Waco, Texas, has more than 100,000 people, inferences of social similarities between cities with 100,000 and 5 million are tenuous. And with metro Oklahoma City having more than a million people, it becomes plain that urbanization has many faces.

Winning the Election With or Without Fraud

We continue to believe two things: that vote fraud occurred, and that Ahmadinejad likely would have won without it. Very little direct evidence has emerged to establish vote fraud, but several things seem suspect.

For example, the speed of the vote count has been taken as a sign of fraud, as it should have been impossible to count votes that fast. The polls originally were to have closed at 7 p.m. local time, but voting hours were extended until 10 p.m. because of the number of voters in line. By 11:45 p.m. about 20 percent of the vote had been counted. By 5:20 a.m. the next day, with almost all votes counted, the election commission declared Ahmadinejad the winner. The vote count thus took about seven hours. (Remember there were no senators, congressmen, city council members or school board members being counted — just the presidential race.) Intriguingly, this is about the same time in took in 2005, though reformists that claimed fraud back then did not stress the counting time in their allegations.

The counting mechanism is simple: Iran has 47,000 voting stations, plus 14,000 roaming stations that travel from tiny village to tiny village, staying there for a short time before moving on. That creates 61,000 ballot boxes designed to receive roughly the same number of votes. That would mean that each station would have been counting about 500 ballots, or about 70 votes per hour. With counting beginning at 10 p.m., concluding seven hours later does not necessarily indicate fraud or anything else. The Iranian presidential election system is designed for simplicity: one race to count in one time zone, and all counting beginning at the same time in all regions, we would expect the numbers to come in a somewhat linear fashion as rural and urban voting patterns would balance each other out — explaining why voting percentages didn’t change much during the night.

It has been pointed out that some of the candidates didn’t even carry their own provinces or districts. We remember that Al Gore didn’t carry Tennessee in 2000. We also remember Ralph Nader, who also didn’t carry his home precinct in part because people didn’t want to spend their vote on someone unlikely to win — an effect probably felt by the two smaller candidates in the Iranian election.
That Mousavi didn’t carry his own province is more interesting. Flynt Leverett and Hillary Mann Leverett writing in Politico make some interesting points on this. As an ethnic Azeri, it was assumed that Mousavi would carry his Azeri-named and -dominated home province. But they also point out that Ahmadinejad also speaks Azeri, and made multiple campaign appearances in the district. They also point out that Khamenei is Azeri. In sum, winning that district was by no means certain for Mousavi, so losing it does not automatically signal fraud. It raised suspicions, but by no means was a smoking gun.

We do not doubt that fraud occurred during Iranian election. For example, 99.4 percent of potential voters voted in Mazandaran province, a mostly secular area home to the shah’s family. Ahmadinejad carried the province by a 2.2 to 1 ratio. That is one heck of a turnout and level of support for a province that lost everything when the mullahs took over 30 years ago. But even if you take all of the suspect cases and added them together, it would not have changed the outcome. The fact is that Ahmadinejad’s vote in 2009 was extremely close to his victory percentage in 2005. And while the Western media portrayed Ahmadinejad’s performance in the presidential debates ahead of the election as dismal, embarrassing and indicative of an imminent electoral defeat, many Iranians who viewed those debates — including some of the most hardcore Mousavi supporters — acknowledge that Ahmadinejad outperformed his opponents by a landslide.

Mousavi persuasively detailed his fraud claims Sunday, and they have yet to be rebutted. But if his claims of the extent of fraud were true, the protests should have spread rapidly by social segment and geography to the millions of people who even the central government asserts voted for him. Certainly, Mousavi supporters believed they would win the election based in part on highly flawed polls, and when they didn’t, they assumed they were robbed and took to the streets.

But critically, the protesters were not joined by any of the millions whose votes the protesters alleged were stolen. In a complete hijacking of the election by some 13 million votes by an extremely unpopular candidate, we would have expected to see the core of Mousavi’s supporters joined by others who had been disenfranchised. On last Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, when the demonstrations were at their height, the millions of Mousavi voters should have made their appearance. They didn’t. We might assume that the security apparatus intimidated some, but surely more than just the Tehran professional and student classes posses civic courage. While appearing large, the demonstrations actually comprised a small fraction of society.
Tensions Among the Political Elite

All of this not to say there are not tremendous tensions within the Iranian political elite. That no revolution broke out does not mean there isn’t a crisis in the political elite, particularly among the clerics. But that crisis does not cut the way Western common sense would have it. Many of Iran’s religious leaders see Ahmadinejad as hostile to their interests, as threatening their financial prerogatives, and as taking international risks they don’t want to take. Ahmadinejad’s political popularity in fact rests on his populist hostility to what he sees as the corruption of the clerics and their families and his strong stand on Iranian national security issues.

The clerics are divided among themselves, but many wanted to see Ahmadinejad lose to protect their own interests. Khamenei, the supreme leader, faced a difficult choice last Friday. He could demand a major recount or even new elections, or he could validate what happened. Khamenei speaks for a sizable chunk of the ruling elite, but also has had to rule by consensus among both clerical and non-clerical forces. Many powerful clerics like Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani wanted Khamenei to reverse the election, and we suspect Khamenei wished he could have found a way to do it. But as the defender of the regime, he was afraid to. Mousavi supporters’ demonstrations would have been nothing compared to the firestorm among Ahmadinejad supporters — both voters and the security forces —had their candidate been denied. Khamenei wasn’t going to flirt with disaster, so he endorsed the outcome.

The Western media misunderstood this because they didn’t understand that Ahmadinejad does not speak for the clerics but against them, that many of the clerics were working for his defeat, and that Ahmadinejad has enormous pull in the country’s security apparatus. The reason Western media missed this is because they bought into the concept of the stolen election, therefore failing to see Ahmadinejad’s support and the widespread dissatisfaction with the old clerical elite. The Western media simply didn’t understand that the most traditional and pious segments of Iranian society support Ahmadinejad because he opposes the old ruling elite. Instead, they assumed this was like Prague or Budapest in 1989, with a broad-based uprising in favor of liberalism against an unpopular regime.

Tehran in 2009, however, was a struggle between two main factions, both of which supported the Islamic republic as it was. There were the clerics, who have dominated the regime since 1979 and had grown wealthy in the process. And there was Ahmadinejad, who felt the ruling clerical elite had betrayed the revolution with their personal excesses. And there also was the small faction the BBC and CNN kept focusing on — the demonstrators in the streets who want to dramatically liberalize the Islamic republic. This faction never stood a chance of taking power, whether by election or revolution. The two main factions used the third smaller faction in various ways, however. Ahmadinejad used it to make his case that the clerics who supported them, like Rafsanjani, would risk the revolution and play into the hands of the Americans and British to protect their own wealth. Meanwhile, Rafsanjani argued behind the scenes that the unrest was the tip of the iceberg, and that Ahmadinejad had to be replaced. Khamenei, an astute politician, examined the data and supported Ahmadinejad.

Now, as we saw after Tiananmen Square, we will see a reshuffling among the elite. Those who backed Mousavi will be on the defensive. By contrast, those who supported Ahmadinejad are in a powerful position. There is a massive crisis in the elite, but this crisis has nothing to do with liberalization: It has to do with power and prerogatives among the elite. Having been forced by the election and Khamenei to live with Ahmadinejad, some will make deals while some will fight — but Ahmadinejad is well-positioned to win this battle.


This report may be forwarded or republished on your website with attribution to www.stratfor.com

Please feel free to distribute this Intelligence Report to friends or repost to your Web site linking to www.stratfor.com.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. what do i think? -- in this case i think where there is smoke there is fire.
the elite might be having one struggle -- but i think a lot of people are having another.

and that's my problem with this analysis -- i live and work in the bay area -- speak with iranian expats, rub shoulders with, neighbors with -- we're neighbors with everyone here -- and everyone you speak agrees that there is a lot of 'unrest' in iran.

THIS 'revolution' may not succeed -- but a mighty big seed has certainly taken root.

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rwheeler31 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wow only the elite exist.
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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
3. Stratfor's credibility is going to be damaged if they're wrong
They have predicted it would fail from the start.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. The problem with the analysis is that this wasn't a "revolution."
There was not an attempted revolution, there were demonstrations to annul the vote and have a real election within the system.

That is a different animal.

I keep going back to 1905 Winter Palace. The people were not "revolting." They were respectfully petitioning their Tsar. They were fired on. The Tsarist regime lost its legitimacy that day, Bloody Sunday. It is considered the pivotal point of the subsequent revolution.

The Leader of the Islamic Revolution lost his legitimacy on "Bloody Saturday." Whether the Islamic Revolution lost its legitimacy is further down the time line.

Statfor's credibility is zero.


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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
24. The analysis has a ring of authenticity, if you've ever lived in a foreign country
The analogies used to draw the distinction between rural hamlets in Texas, and The Big City underscores the situation in 3rd World places where all the big cities were much, much smaller just a few generations ago.

I also have some interest in this analysis because it flatly contradicts some of the assertions made about Ach-ma-deen-a-zhad's political strength made in the western media, and puts some nuance into the support group(s) that are competing for different constituencies. (Assorted/competing -- ? -- anti-corruption groups vs. wink-and-a-nod-avoid-chaos-at-all-costs status quo sympathizers?)

...Other than that, who knows? It's a diverse, complex society, not a bunch of guys in white headwraps, against a bunch of others in black, as the Republicans are trying to frame it.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #24
28. How do you start with a flawed premise, prove the premise, and have a ring
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 08:49 AM by tsuki
of authenticity?

His work may have cherry-picked facts, but it is not a serious work of scholarship and has no validity. Hack Job.
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. So what's the premise and what's been 'cherry-picked'?
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 03:42 PM by mojowork_n
Unless you're trying to say that what's happening over there is so much simpler and more straightforward than the way the Stratfor guys are sketching it to be.... Maybe it is the 'white headwrap'/'black headwrap' pro- and anti-democracy morality play most of the "pro-freedom" Republicans believe it to be?

That's not to say that the Revolution Has Failed conclusion is necessarily correct, but to admit that there's more going on there than meets the eye, if your only source of information is CNN and Time magazine.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. That it is a revolution. nt
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. They have next to no credibility
nobody in the intelligence field takes them seriously.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. "We continue to believe two things: that vote fraud occurred, and that Ahmadinejad likely would have
won without it. Very little direct evidence has emerged to establish vote fraud, but several things seem suspect."

Is this the Imperial "We?" And the only thing suspect is the "scholarship" in this rant.

They need to forget "watching" and do some "reading."
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think this analysis is wrong
First of all, he states that at Tianamen, only students were there. Students started the situation, but the Chinese government pretty much ignored them; after all, they're only students, so rebelliousness is expected. Where the Chinese government moved in is when the local ordinary population in Beijing joined the students, creating a popular front against government totalitarianism. And as in China, the Iranian rioters are not primarily students, but rather Mousavi's supporters, who do in fact exist throughout the country, and not just in the urban centers. The Iranian government today itself admitted there was systematic electoral fraud committed by the government, indicating that Mousavi's support is probably quite high, just as the pre-election polls predicted.

As for Iran, the government is proving itself inept at shutting down communications within the country, due to the change in technology. It was easy for the Chinese government to prevent the Tianamen fervor spreading simply by preventing news spreading from Beijing to other areas of China. What is happening in Iran is because of the Internet and cellphone video cameras and other technology, the Iranian government is unable to clamp down on the flow of information to other areas of the country, or even prevent communications between Iranians and the outside world. This gives the Iranian opposition greater abilities to coordinate their tactics, and see the effects their actions are having on the government and the non-committed Iranians.
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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
6. Bastrop, Texas? You can get some great BBQ in Bastrop!
But thanks for posting. I was starting to think this revolution has gone stagnant and is not making any progress. And there have been no reports of this revolution spreading much beyond Tehran U.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
8. was this analysis posted before today's announcement about the Revolutionary Guard leader refusing
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vixengrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. A different take, although it raises questions for me.
Edited on Mon Jun-22-09 11:48 PM by vixengrl
I didn't really know until recently that there was this council of experts thing, where it's like other clerics (some of them real ayatollahs who didn't get a "promotion" because they were hand-picked by the father of the revolution) could even 86 Khamenei. The idea of a clerical "checks and balances" blew my fragile little mind for a minute, but made me kind of "get" how much of Iranian politics seems to be "it's who you know." This make me wonder if some kind of "backroom" intrigue doesn't get rid of Khamenei for supporting the election results the way he has, because regardless of his support among the Revolutionary Guard, he's watering down all their clerical legitimacy by, well, being thuggish. The moral high road, he hasn't exactly been taking.

So while this part "feels" true enough:

Later, when Ayatollah Ali Khamenei spoke Friday and called out the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, they failed to understand that the troops — definitely not drawn from what we might call the “Twittering classes,” would remain loyal to the regime for ideological and social reasons. The troops had about as much sympathy for the demonstrators as a small-town boy from Alabama might have for a Harvard postdoc. Failing to understand the social tensions in Iran, the reporters deluded themselves into thinking they were witnessing a general uprising. But this was not St. Petersburg in 1917 or Bucharest in 1989 — it was Tiananmen Square.


I'm more interested in why Khamenei would support the stealing of an election that did not need to be stolen in the first place, more than I am with who would sympathize with what. Sure, I'm a young liberal internetizen--I don't have a choice but be sympathetic to the uprising--but there didn't have to be one. I don't necessarily entirely agree with their breakdown--my best guess is Ahmadinejad didn't hold onto all his original supporters and that the higher numbers of people at the polls should have meant people were coming out for change, but what do I know--I thought Kerry beat Bush from the exit polls. So I grant that Ahmadinejad won by something if they say so--but why did someone want to finagle a transparent landslide for him?

A Potemkin mandate? Inflated vote count to make it look like he had more popular support than he did? That forks onto two possible reasons why--either Khamenei and Ahmadinejad have something they want to accomplish, or, it's out of sheer insecurity. And I'm leaning towards insecurity, because it looks like a gamble; that smells like insecurity to me. Probably from the internal tension with the clerics--plus 11th hour Mousavi popularity.

Even if the uprising gets quelled, those tensions will still exist. And the sentiments of the uprising aren't going to just go away--not after there have been martyrs. While there might be political similarities to Tiananmen, I wonder if there aren't cultural dissimilarities regarding population, access to information, the influence of world opinion, etc, that might nonetheless lead to a different outcome.

I don't like their conclusion, but they laid it out very well and have given me things to think about. It's a realistic check on the tendency one might have to "root" for a side, without seeing all the obstacles. I just wonder if all the obstacles they see are there.


(My html, my spelling--my point....my edits, thank you for your forbearance.)
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4lbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
10. The last revolution, in 1979, was actually started in 1978. It took a full year before the Shah
Edited on Mon Jun-22-09 11:37 PM by 4lbs
was overthrown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Iranian_Revolution

<snip>
The first major demonstrations against the Shah began in January 1978.<9> Between August and December 1978 strikes and demonstrations paralyzed the country. The shah left Iran for exile in mid-January 1979, and two weeks later Ayatollah Khomeini returned to Tehran to a greeting by several million Iranians.<10> The royal regime collapsed shortly after on February 11 when guerrillas and rebel troops overwhelmed troops loyal to the Shah in armed street fighting. Iran voted by national referendum to become an Islamic Republic on April 1, 1979,<11> and to approve a new theocratic constitution whereby Khomeini became Supreme Leader of the country, in December 1979.
<snip>


So, expecting massive upheaval and change in Iran in just two weeks is a little stupid.

There will be strikes and demonstrations for probably the next few weeks and months.

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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. Anyone notice
how there are people who've joined DU within the last few days and mostly posted messages which either attempt to minimize what's happening in Iran, or support the idea that the U.S. has covertly fomented and supported the current unrest?

Just saying. Flaneur, have you noticed this?
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HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. It's been rather surprising
We've been infiltrated by propagandists intent on telling us that "I'madinnerjacket" won and other bizarre conspiracies (CIA - whaaat - this is NOT 1953!?)
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4lbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Hmm.... pro-Ahmedinijad supporters maybe? (n/t)
.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Now now - did I say that?
:evilgrin:
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. That's a rather ugly insinuation.
I thought the Stratfor piece was worthy of DU attention. Would you care to address its content?
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I guess my point wasn't very clear. My bad.
My point was that there seem to be Iranian agents hitting Twitter, Facebook, various forums such as DU, etc.

That, combined with their brutal behavior towards their own citizens would seem to indicate that the current Iranian authorities don't seem to see this as a non-threat. I would think that they'd know better than Stratfor.

Maybe I was being overly paranoid in suspecting you. If so, I apologize. But when you post things like you did in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3934739
Hmmm, looking a bit messy over there these days.
But it's so last year.

it becomes easy to be overly suspicious. That kind of a flippant dismissal of the ongoing bloodshed seems atypical of DU members.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Thanks for the close reading of my limited posts.
But I think you misread the one you cite above. Not at all a flippant dismissal of the violence in Iraq, but rather noting that it got no attention as we concentrate on the cause du jour.
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Jane Austin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. I found that analysis to be a long, belligerant pout - mostly.
Almost like Mr. Friedman is pissed that reporters are getting this story.

Seems to me that reporters are telling it as they see it, and that they are following people wherever they are from and wherever they are going to get the story.

Are we to think that all those women involved in this action are elitists?

This uprising may not topple their governement this year, but they have really changed things in their country.

As for Bastrop, Texas . . . well, we live in Bastrop County now, and I now have and wear a beautiful hand-woven GREEN silk scarf, bought at HEB at their World of Good kiosk.

http://worldofgood.ebay.com/Fair-Trade-Silk-Green-Scarf-Vietnam/260425383242/item

Now I can show a little bit of solidarity with the Iranian people.

I was in NYC for five packed days in May, visiting friends, eating great food, doing business and otherwise fitting right in in my Grandmother's home town.

Mr. Friedman seems a bit out of touch to me - and quite a bit defensive.
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-22-09 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
16. Good analysis
Tiananmen is a good analogy. These students didn't have the numbers or the guns. You have to have one or the other or both to win a revolution. Text messaging doesn't win revolutions.

It really was amazing how many western journalists bought into the idea that these protests were going to result in an overthrow. They got too caught up in all of it and let their judgment go out the window. You see a lot of that on the Huffington Post, for example. Mainly wishful thinking.

Also amazing was how quickly everyone jumped on the vote fraud bandwagon, not allowing for the fact that Ahmadinejad might actually have won the election. No one raised the possibility that Mousavi himself, knowing he was going to lose, might have stuffed a few ballor boxes with more votes than there were voters so that he would have an obvious claim of fraud, and would have a basis for starting a riot.

This revolt looked like an effort well organized in advance. It looked like a lot of planning went into it. It didn't look spontaneous to me. Mousavi declaring victory before the vote count was released, by some accounts before the polls closed, looked to me like an effort to set up a claim of vote fraud and start a revolt. Here in the US, candidates generally wait until the results are announced and the outcome clear to make a statement. And whether the vote margin is narrow or wide, how many candidates immediately declare fraud without giving time for vote analysis and offical inquiries. Mousavi didn't wait for any of that. That's why it looked like the revolt was planned fro the start if he didn't win.

I don't know why the authorities didn't respond more quickly. There was peaceful protest, but there was also rioting. For which the wishful thinking western media put on its rose-colored glasses. When kids overturn cars and burn buses after a Laker championship, or a Bulls championship, people call them riots. But in Iran the western media called them demonstrations and ignored the fact that a lot of people were breaking the law.

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4lbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 04:35 AM
Response to Reply #16
27. The last revolution/overthrow in Iran took a whole year before anyone was actually kicked out.
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 04:36 AM by 4lbs
You think that this time it would happen in just two weeks?

No, it will continue for months.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. If a revolution has not succeeded in two weeks, it's a complete failure.
Reminds me of many people's impatience with Obama.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
18. I think the article is very misleading, though it's conclusion...
may be correct.

First, the misleading part:

It seems to ignore the basic premise of the protests themselves, and that is the vast majority of voters in Iran actually voted for Mousavi and were robbed. While it might be true that the protestors are of a subset of this contigent, the contingent is still large.

Whereas, the conclusion may be correct:

For one reason or another, the folks w/ the guns may not turn on the oppressive regime.

However, I think they are just predicting the uprising will fail and building a set of shakey premises leading to that conclusion.

What's interesting about some of the successful revolutions they mention is that the revolt often has a strong leader and his own henchmen who aren't afraid to kill and be just about as bad as the dude they are overthrowing. I don't see Mousavi w/ his own henchmen and that's likely to be part of the reason why this stalls out.

Change in Iran may come more from a King/Ghandi style of revolution, which takes a lot longer than what we've seen so far as opposed to a Lenin styled takeover.

The other thing is people have to be really hungry and poor for the sort of quick change we'd like to see. If enough people are fed and entertained, they just aren't willing to sacrifice what it takes to effect change.
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
19. I think the analysis is wrong, too.
Here: "Amid the breathless reporting on the demonstrations, reporters failed to notice that the uprising was not spreading to other classes and to other areas."

Here: "Tehran accounts for about 20 percent of Iran, but as we know, the cab driver and the construction worker are not socially linked to students at elite universities."

I wonder if the author has looked at any of the videos or pics of the protesters and noticed the diversity of the marchers.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
21. Predictions of what will happen in the future...
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 12:24 AM by Kaleko
based on someone's perspective on what happened in the past.

How is that different from advertising your prowess as a psychic and telling your audience whatever you think will impress them the most?

It's the cocksure certainty in the article that gives the author away as a fraud.

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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
22. The article is correct on this score
Nobody will understand either 1979 or today if they don't understand that fundamentalism attached itself to class struggle in a way that linked them closely in the minds of the people. Any analysis of either event that ignores capitalism and class struggle is doomed to failure.
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
23. these people don't know shit. wait til 40 days after Neda's death. stupid fucks.
just because they have a website I'm supposed to be impressed?
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mojowork_n Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Neda
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 02:42 AM by mojowork_n
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_wl403

"...Although it is not yet clear who shot "Neda" (a soldier? pro-government militant? an accidental misfiring?), her death may have changed everything. For the cycles of mourning in Shiite Islam actually provide a schedule for political combat — a way to generate or revive momentum. Shiite Muslims mourn their dead on the third, seventh and 40th days after a death, and these commemorations are a pivotal part of Iran's rich history. During the revolution, the pattern of confrontations between the shah's security forces and the revolutionaries often played out in 40-day cycles.


More at:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1906049,00.html

The propagandists/psyops on both sides have their work cut out for them.











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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
29. The article ignores that fact that the present regime has created enemies.
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 09:03 AM by olegramps
The actions of Ahmadinejad and Ali Khameni, the Supreme Leader, especially in calling out the Revolutionary Guard Corp to quell the demonstrations against the government created life long enemies of the present regime. This seems to have been totally neglected in the article. It is a very serious matter, given the massive number of people who were demonstrating, to use brutal force by one element of society to against their own citizens. It would appear to me that they made a number of strategic blunders that provided the opposition with a degree of credibility that could be self sustaining. Their actions were hackneyed at best went they resorted to closing down the media and communications networks. Their orders banning public disclosure by foreign journalists will not enhance their international reputation.

It seems to me that they have sowed the seeds for their eventual total discretization and eventual loss of any credibility especially with the younger segment of their population. The desperate actions of the ruling elite, coupled with high unemployment of many young people and their desire for a more open society, were not taken into account in the article.I would think that they should have also noted Theocracies only survive in societies in which the masses are uneducated and easily deceived. This is not the case in modern Iran. It would appear to me, just an observer, that the situation if ripe for change.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
30. Stratfor badly misunderstands Tiananmen square.
The Tiananmen square protests lasted seven weeks, and did indeed spread across the country. The protests had spread to Xi'an and Shanghai within two weeks, and were in most major population centers by four weeks. They also spread across classes; as a result of economic stress, the urban working class was strongly supportive of the student protesters.

The Tiananmen square protests would indeed have resulted in massive social change; the movement was rapidly gaining members among the public, and many officials were becoming sympathetic. It was only through timely and shocking levels of violence that the movement was halted; had the government waited another week, it might have become impossible to avoid granting the reforms demanded by the students.

(And as for Iran? Only the IRG has gotten involved, and their loyalty to the regime is unquestioned. The army has not yet taken sides.)
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
32. (shrug) Oh well. Time to pack it up, Iranians.
:rofl:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Seriously, talk about jumping to conclusions.
:rofl:


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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
36. It's way too early for "it hasn't spread" to mean much.
Edited on Tue Jun-23-09 09:00 PM by Odin2005
Mr. Friedman is very good when it come to broad geopolitical stuff when it comes to individual events he's a bit lame.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
37. Stratfor is almost always wrong
It was laughable watching them change their stated views on Iraq every week during the height of that conflit.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-23-09 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
39. Here's how over it is....
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/06/livetweeting-the-revolution-day-10.html


Live-Tweeting The Revolution: Day 11

6-23-police-wall

CONFIRMED - Musavi facebbok - Wed march Baharestan Sq 4pm Mousavi will attend too

Khamenei to address the world at Friday prayers this week again

yesterday we saw a 10 years old child die from teargas in his face - could not film becos militia everywhere

political prisoners being tortured to deny support for Sea of Green - prison source

some embassys provided protection b4 but now they are all surrounded by militia - also if u are injured then they arrest u6-23-victim-carried

also one of us is badly injured and we cannot take to hospital - treating with trusted doctor contacts but needs hosp

Reprorts: A Bank is on fire in Karaj, Hard Clashes Continuous...

Reports: Army Helicopters flying over Azadi Sq, dark smoke , siren and gunshot is hearing, ppl stoping near there sit street.

Reports: Hard Clashes at Central Karaj (Near Tehran), Police shooting teargas and Protesters making Barricades with Fire...

Reports: Clashes in Karaj (Near Tehran), Police using teargas.

The streets of all major citys in Iran is like war time - civil unrest 6-23-billowing-street EVERYWHERE

We are having difficulty getting updates to u as so many of our contacts been arrested - life here is v/v/dangerous now

Maryam Zolfeghar - journalist IRNA - arrested today

Ismaeil Haghparst, journalist arrested yesterday at Hafte Tir.

Amazing Stupdity: Raja News (Ahmadineajd) claimed Neda was killed by Mojahedin (MEK) not Bassijis!

Iran's state media using a pic of a man with toygun as a terorrist! http://www.etemaad.ir/Released/88-04-02/103.htm#149731

IRIB, state TV about 30% of employees are absent today, National Strike has begun.

National Strike: Half of Shops at Tabriz Bazzar is closed.6-23-silent-students

National Strike: Some of Bazzar Shops has closed in Isfehan.

reports that Bazaars throughout main Iranian cities were mostly closed today for unofficial strike

confirmed IRIB - Iran expels 2 UK diplomats

all over Tehran on walls is written 'death to the dictator'

Gov demos outside UK embassy in Tehran today shouting 'death to England' - 'death to BBC'

reports of large pro-Gov Baseej militia in front of UK embassy Tehran

Today Rally is devided to: Mellat park, Amirabad (Neda) St. Istanbull Cr, and Vanak Sq at 16.00 to avoid crack down.

Militia all over Tehran on motorbike beating pedestrians for no reason

student of Ferdows Uni - Ashkan Zehabian in a coma for past 5 days after being beaten by Militia

Neda's BF has anonnced shewas freedom supp.not pro-M. http://bit.ly/10erz2

players of IRI national football team banned from speaking to press after wearing green armbands in Korea game

yesterday - hundreds of thousands of cars in Tehran streets with lights on to show support for Sea of Green

journalist sources - any reports published in Iran are censored in full by Gov first

news: all staff & journalists at Kalame Newspaper arrested last night
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