in a way I'm kind of proud of them.
Standing in front of the Obama health care express has to a scary thing for many of these largely unknown house members.

Put yourself in their shoes for a moment
Your a moderate dem maybe swept into office by a hugely popular president.
You think your fiscal concerns regarding legislation were not addressed or even considered.

do you:
get in line/ go along and get along/ please the president
or do you:
put your responsibility to represent your constituents first and oppose the president, risking more than you will ever gain?


If Obama can't convince his own party, it doesn't deserve to pass.
Exactly how its supposed to work in my view.

campaign treasure chest with lot's of cash.

Me thinks they could give a rats ass about their constituents.

you can't possibly think that, the folks you voted for, supported, worked for, swept into office
or is it juts easier to think they're corrupt,rather than sincere.
they were corrupted pretty quick I'd say.

I think they are as sincere as hell

Have you seen the Health Care campaign contributions to the Blue Dogs who are blocking health care?

you sound a teensy bit paranoid.

how many sincere member of congress exist in your view?

They are defender of the uber-rich status quo.

Not sure how to split that hair between corporatist and corupted
how many hard working honest and sincere members of congress are there?

The rest represent big business. It is obvious when it comes to debating and voting on legislation. I have thought for a while that we have a two party system, but the parties are not D and R. The parties are Corporatist and Progressive. The Corporatist still have a large majority. That is why, even with a Democratic majority, we can't get real progressive, people-centered legislation. It is the nature of the current election-funding system. It is so expensive to run and win, that the members become dependent on corporate sponsors and indebted to them. I don't think they are all corrupt, just cowards and lazy.

:applause:

The MAJORITY of all Washington politicians are CORPORATISTS.

They are doing what the insurance industry wants because of campaign contributions. And they are doing this against the interests of their constituents.

last one of them. Those four are the only ones I've seen who consistently refuse to sell out the best interests of the People.

likely far more than I know of. I would even say my Republican representative, who I rarely agree with, is not corrupt. He votes the way he does because his values are different - which is why I vote against him election after election. The vast majority of legislators are actually making less than they could outside politics. (Not to mention, it is beyond silly to think anyone "bought" people as wealthy as Kerry or Kennedy.)

is he part of the 25%?

I'm talking about the amount of money that the Health care industry is contributing to the Blue Dog Dems...That's all.

The corruption in washington is pervasive. A representative in a competitive district spends his entire career raising money for the next election, which is at best two years away. The cost to run is huge. That you do not understand in the least just how corrupt washington is makes your naive OP at least comprehensible. Go and learn something about our Republic of Greed.

conservatives aren't REAL concerned with military spending. They say we can't afford health care while happily shelling out thousands for a toilet seat.

Let's just agree that you're dead wrong on this.

This is political posturing at the expense of the health of the American People. period.

when that overcharge took place. That's Reagan era, not today. There was a wrench, a coffee maker, and a few other absurd line items in that scandal too.

Update your anecdote with an F-22 comment, or a Halliburton/some other contractor-remark, if you want to be viewed as current, and not repeating old saws. FWIW, I don't argue at all that military spending is poorly controlled and monitored.

I find your point about being 'current' to be moot. But thanks anyway.

It wasn't until Reagan was in the saddle for awhile that costs started spiraling out of control, and coverage got terribly sketchy. So no, it wasn't really moot.

Hey, all I'm trying to do is help your argument. You're arguing about how to sell a buggy whip in the internal combustion era, is all. But whatever...

besides, horse and buggy is MUCH MORE environmentally friendly than internal combustion anyway, and green *IS* all the rage...

and P.S. You should see what's going on with some Medicare and Medicaid money. Overall, people are happy with Medicare, but some of the costs are almost completely "poorly controlled and monitored."

I do not argue that it IS poorly controlled and is poorly monitored. If it were not poorly controlled, it would be well controlled. If it were not poorly monitored, it would be well monitored.

It's clear as a bell if you slow down and read each word.

Medicare and Medicaid have the same issues, and corrupt doctors using the poorest of the poor to skim money (charging for procedures not done, e.g., and giving patients a kickback some time--or not) are part of the problem.

and monitored."

"I (never) argue (for or against the proposition) that military spending (isn't) poorly controlled and monitored."

Since arguing can be for or against, it does appear that "is" or "isn't" is six of one half-of-a-dozen of the other.

but if it makes you happy, let me say unequivocally that I think the DOD has a lot of work to do in both controlling and capping expenditures. They're slobs at best, and crooks at worst.

Is that sufficiently plain?

:hi:

:hi:

ambiguity; it's a curse, really, but explained by the fact that technical writers often write for Users who ALSO vary widely. I still write every day today, for a different audience, but still a wide variety of people, everyone from the kitchen to the boardroom.

P.S. I almost always enjoy your posts, MADem.

I was putting together a schlocky little storage shelving unit (made in China, of course) the other day with an instruction booklet that was written in some of the worst Chinglish I've ever read!! It was a good thing that the concept was simple, because the directions were useless! Worse than useless--if I'd followed them, I might have messed up the works!

who promise to look after them after they leave office.

I've grown pretty paranoid about this, but it doesn't mean there isn't a giant leech fastened to my healthcare system trying to profit off it at my expense.

Since 1994, the last time, health care COSTS (read insurance premiums) have gone up 200%.

They're spending a million dollars a day just on anti- healthcare fix ads.
Who's paranoid ?

experimental. It's constructed to insure the flow of dollars to the health insurance criminal organizations who are killing 18,000 people a year every year in the US, people who don't have to die except for lack of treatment, so that the insurance racket can take their cut. The Obama plan will cost at least a trillion and a half dollars more than a single payer plan and provide less care over 10 years.

Of course, that doesn't mean the Blue Dogs get it.

So I hear where you are coming from, maybe sort of. Maybe not though too. Perhaps you could expand on your thesis.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt.
I owe them that much.
The election, the act of campaigning builds the trust I have in them
I don't throw that overboard just because they won

kingdom to do anything I decided I want to do with zero oversight.

Do you have any job openings? Need your lawn mowed, or anything at all?

is enough to lay to rest any doubts. When one adds polling and information on the positions of the people, that nails the coffin shut. The lies and misdirections toss the dirt in atop the grave of any doubt.

Blind acceptance is what got us into this MESS and is quite possibly nascent fascism.

or, IOW, a DAMNED REPUBLICAN. Blue Dogs are all assholes.

misreading their constituencies and the direction the country is headed.

The bluedogs are still preferable to the conservatives they replaced - at least that's the case here in CO, where John Salazer is serving instead of a right wing fundy wackjob like Scott McGinnis... that said, it is Obama's job to convince these folks to back him, perhaps by playing the sort of hardball that Bush was so good at - like, support my legislation or you don't get Fed funding for your favorite water project... which is how Bush got Salazar to vote for his budget.

talk. Nothing noble about them. If they want to obstruct and act like repukes, they should change their party affiliation.

to "Obstruct" (your word) when they disagree.
am I wrong about that?
I remember many many post talking about how congress shouldn't be too deferential to the president(W at that time)

Nothing noble about it. The Democrats sailed to winning elections, because the people supported their platform. Now, those same "Democrats" are obstructing the will of the people.

When you obstruct at all, you generally risk simply serving as a wedge. When you obstruct because the bills threaten the insurance industries profit levels, which is the case here, you are being a puppet.

This is about subjective opinion, of which you seem to be on the wrong side of.

It's not like they are Republicans, there is a time to fight and a time to work with the majority view in your party.

are to be admired? :crazy:

that would make it easier for you.

these are the same people you hoped would win, voted for(I presume)cheered their victory.
These are democrats put there by democrats.
thats just the facts.

I have no use for them. They gave Democrats a majority in number only. Not in agenda or platform. They are not liberals or progressives. They are conservatives, little distinguishes them from conservative repukes.

DINOs. Democrats in name only. They suck! Why are you arguing for the GOP point of view. That perspective is all we see on TV and here you are agreeing with them.

talks like one

hardly a difference.

just like the fundie zealots co-opted the republican party. And they are getting help from the DLC and DINOS.

They're choking over funding health care, but didn't have a damn bit of trouble funding 2 unnecessary, illegal, and immoral wars.

Wake up!

all by themselves. Blue Dogs are bread and maintained by Republicans (Churches especially) to control what happens in tightly balanced districts.

You're starting to look pretty naive.

all dems for 50 years

republican in their district... so they changed party to jump on the gravy train...

Stand up for their interests. Your constituents will thank you when they see real health care reform works. That is why the Republicans and the insurance companies are pulling out all the stops to kill real health care reform.

typically something like n D, n+ R, n- U, ergo we MUST go toward the n+.

They almost totally ignore any possibility of anykind of emergent properties in these highly complex social systems, especially if n- is whatever they have decided is "weak". They IGNORE anomalies and the potential for emergent events, so, guess what? None of the other possibles have much of a chance of happening and as time goes on the circumstances under which something ELSE could happen must, of necessity, become more and more extreme, thusly confirming their initial bias in the first place. In short,

It's a Rackett.

they're just not there yet

Say, your Blue Dog acquiesces to the will of the Insurance Companies/American Family Association/______________ and kills genuine Health Care with a thousand "small"/moderate/"reasonable" wounds and, say, a bunch of Blue Constituents decide that they've HAD IT with their Blue Dog and either don't show up to work the campaign and/or vote for a BD candidate because s/he DOES NOT REPRESENT THEM . . . what happens to the BD in such a scenario . . . ?

S/he MUST move to the Right, MUST support more RW Fundie Hate-doctrine in order to stay in office. In other words, if the BDs don't do what we want on this, we can kiss Progressive, People-based, Communitarian Values in public policy good-fucking-bye. In short,

THIS is It!

same as it ever was
Obama was not the most progressive candidate in the last primary.
He won anyway, Blue dogs know this

Websters define conservative as "assumes the safest position"

Hate to break it to you, but thats most of us, in both parties
Opposing the president is the least conservative position for these members right now

Just because "that's the way things have always been" does not mean that's the only way things can/should be. Especially when it's more than abundantly clear who owns our representation.

My Blue Dog: NO QUESTIONS ASKED about funding a $40 billion @ month WAR, but when it comes to something that could make the lives of Americans better, it'll be killed by a thousand small cuts.

We live in a system that is SOCIALISM for the transnational MIC, Inc., Wall Street, and Insurance Companies and a dog-eat-dog rat-race for the rest of us.

and being angry about getting what you always get.

I am pretty hopeful

Have you ever seen a loved one suffer and die without the benefits of a medical system that are more than readily available to others?

How often have you been un-employed over the last 9 years?

How do YOUR kids' futures look?

Got clean air? or can go where the air IS clean whenever you want?

Do you trust your food supply not to contain chemicals such as, e.g., one that is commonly used in detergents to emulsify dirt?

Where do you expect to spend your last years before you die?

How old is your car? How much do you have to put into it to keep it running? Is Mass Transit available where you live?

What are you looking-forward to in your life?

Do you own your own home?

Are you allowed to love whomever you love?

If you do own your own home, can you afford major home maintenance, such as paint or replacement windows?

How much vacation do you get each year?

How many hours do you work each week?

What's the lowest wage you ever worked for?

. . . .

I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

Preferably the ones that have answers that would show that you DO in fact know what life is like for a whole lot of people in this place we refer to as America (but which isn't, in fact, a nation, because there is no agreement amongst us as to what it means to be American. There is NO Social Contract that = America. Nothing but a rat-race governed by a bunch of servants to Mammon who think little of the rivers of blood and viscera they place at the feet of their golden idol Capitalism).

if thing get better I will benefit
if things get worse I will suffer
I have health insurance, I have a job.

This is about whats good for the nation,
not whats good for me personally.

e the luxury of saying it's not about me/mine, especially when so many others are so heavily subsidized, on our backs, to make it about themselves.

always comes last.
I hope.

r own self-interests, others don't NEED to, because the system is doing that for them quite handsomely, thank you.

So, if the group decides it is in it's interests to, say, go kill and help to kill 1,000,000 people who didn't need killing; or if the group decides it isn in it's interests to violate my Civil Rights by telling me whom I may and may not Love; or if the group decides it is in it's interests to tell me that I may not decide to have an early-term abortion, I'm not supposed to resist and struggle for what I need and what I know is right?

You are not a nascent fascist. You are a fascistic absolutist.

habitually engaging in self-fulfilling prophecies, or plane laziness and intellectual inadequacy, or outright assuming that Might Makes Right/Blasphemy.

It's called Group Think and it's FATAL, perhaps even to the point of Extinction under current circumstances.

"Oh, but don't worry you all; good Americans are all going to that Better Place that we know is OURS by Divine Right, so just give all of that suffering to 'Jesus'/daddy and don't try to change anything/grow/create, 'cause Daddy/God loves you and nothing else matters."

and paid for
what are you doing cheering their election?
Obama was a senator
is he corrupted?

That might work for you but
I can't think like that
I can't simultaneously work within the system at making things better,
and assume everybody I speak to is corrupt.
Thats a luxury YOU have

Most of us work withink system that are "corrupt" to one degree or another. Each of us must make our own decisions about how much s/he will/will not sacrifice to those systems. It is the nature of pro-action to work ahead of the curve a bit, to construct other possibilities that, big or small, whether they fail or succeed, trigger other possibilities, so that it is possible for anyone else in the system who isn't a SLAVE to Mammon to experience "sympathetic vibrations/variations" and I don't mean that in anything like the new-agey sense.

on certain things doesn't mean they are Republicans. My Rep is a Blue Dog Democrat and he voted against the energy bill because of Cap and Trade. This is an area that depends on coal and heavy industry and the overwhelming majority of his constituents where against the Cap and Trade. We are 2/3 registered Democrat but we elected a Republican Bob Ney several times because he went against his party and voted against NAFTA. He said it would be a job killer and he was 100% right. Congressman Charlie Wilson (D) went against his party and voted against the energy bill and I think he will be proven right if that one ever becomes law.

Obama won and these unknown people from hayseed districts are trying to impose their opinions on the rest of us.

they know their districts.
I would not trade losing the majority in the midterms for this one fight

They are trying, unwisely, to override the goal of the President of the United States who is a member of their own party.

Oh yes indeed how scary it was for these corrupt fucks to lard up their campaign chests. How scary it was to face absolutely no repercussions for their stand against the interests of the people and their party and for the interests of the corporate kleptocracy. They have risked nothing.

of the democratic party. 'Their support' here could hardly drop. It is only the occasional naive post like yours that results in any argument at all on this issue. There is pretty much a consensus view here that the 'blue dog coalition' is effectively part of the other party.

Your post is stunningly naive.

I used to view things your way
I changed
The cheers here were nice and loud when they won

You were wrong to assume they would all move left upon election.

We were sold down the river to the basest, most self-centered, blaspheming, idolators in "our" country. Look at how campaigns are financed. We have Socialism for trans-national corporations, the Industrial Military Complex, Insurance Companies, BigPharma, and Wall Street in general and literally a dog-eat-dog rat-race for the rest of us. How STUPID is it to continue to support those who WORK against your best interests.

They know their districts
They are people of high calling,not hucksters on the take.
I wouldn't want to trade the majority for this one vote.
I think I owe these democrats the benefit of the doubt.

so, I'm not pissed at them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=6145755&mesg_id=6145755

You cannot deny how office in this country is obtained and what "has" to be done to retain one.

but This is our system
These are democratic members of congress.
part of our majority
1 in 5

I do not think 75% of the members are corrupt.
anybody who does has never been close to it.
Thats just a way too easy excuse

CHURCH-PACs.

Yes, you make a good point on that score.

They cannot vote for a "liberal" healthcare bill w/o at least putting up a fight, because their constituents don't want them to.

I totally disagree with their stance. It is close to the Repub stance. If there ever was a time to stick together, now is it.

BTW, those blue dogs did not get swept into office on Obama's coattails, for the most part, I think. Bill Nelson predates Obama in the congress. Jim Webb was always gonna make it and was very popular in his state. The crew cut guy from Montanta or wherever...he was always gonna make it.

Any Dems swept into office on Obama's coattails were more likely not moderates. At least I'm pretty sure about that.

in 'fiscal responsibility' that they gave $ush all the money he wanted for his wars with no accountability. They are hypocrits, might as well join the other ones in the GOP and stop playing games with us.

and not fiscal concerns??

either way, don't be too proud of them -- it's not like they are making a stand on principle or anything...they just serve different masters, nothing more....

we are not talking about 1 or 2 members

and I'm right.
Obama has to convince them,win them over, thats his job.
its 1 in 5 members its not two holdouts

they know they would get killed back home if they did go for it.
So, in order to improve their chances for re-election, thus preserving our majority,They had to oppose. Sorry Mr President I can't be with you on this.
all I'm saying is they know better than me or you how popular it is in their districts.

If we don't get health care reform now, we're not going to get it for years or ever. And while the blue dogs are "standing up to the president," millions will continue to go bankrupt or die early due to lack of healthcare coverage.

So screw them and their self indulgent behavior.

Your stance on other issues seem pretty consistent with this stance.

lost for words......


:yoiks:

If you want to be a goddamned Repuke, go do so in THEIR party. Not in mine.

Blue Dog Dems are Republicans with a D after their name.

should they stand in the way of health care reform (among other things that would benefit their constituents).

Trouble is- they're none too clever, and apparently are unable or unwilling to stand up and show the voters why these bills will help them. Instead, they play along with Limbaugh and the lobbyists.

The consequence of which means out the door they go.

To which I say good riddance.

Money!

nuff said?

Then the next time a Blue Dog goes to a doctor, we'd see if they still think this system doesn't need fixing.

Just on Obama's words alone this should be moving through smoothly, I would say. In industrial nations where coporations have been kept in check and not allowed to amalgomate to where they are too powerful things really aren't quite so difficult.

for fiscal responsibility?" or "Are the Blue Dogs doing this for a massive increase in campaign contributions?"

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0709/25289.html

Because you sure as hell don't hear any of them talking fiscal responsibility when it comes to military spending.

by the same clever American, who told us we need to be nicer to Republicans. And warned us about how terrible it would be if we end up with "Democrat healthcare" <-----exact quote

:crazy:

I haven't figured out what your angle is yet, but I have seen where your sympathy lies.