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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:13 PM
Original message
Obama sits down at the the table with Corporate America, gives them our public schools
In conjunction with Obama's plan to make everyone purchase private health insurance, are you beginning to see the pattern here? This is why Wall St/Corporate America was very happy to get Obama in the White House.



http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2009/08/21/nea_breaks_with_administration.html?hpid=topnews

NEA Attacks Administration's Education Reform Plan

By Nick Anderson
The nation's largest teachers union sharply attacked President Obama's most significant school improvement initiative on Friday evening, saying that it puts too much emphasis on a "narrow agenda" centered on charter schools and echoes the Bush administration's "top-down approach" to reform.

The National Education Association's criticism of http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/23/AR2009072303881.html">Obama's $4.35 billion "Race to the Top" initiative came nearly a month after the president http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNbDv0zPBV4">unveiled the competitive grant program, meant to spur states to move toward teacher performance pay; lift caps on independently operated, publicly funded charter schools; and take other steps to shake up school systems.

The NEA's statement to the Department of Education came a week before the end of the public-comment period on the administration's proposal, and it reflected deep divisions over the White House's education agenda within a constituency largely loyal to the Democratic Party.

The union, which boasts 3.2 million members, charged that Race to the Top contradicted administration pledges to give states more flexibility in how they improve schools. "We find this top-down approach disturbing; we have been down that road before with the failures of No Child Left Behind," http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/documents/NEA_documents_082109.doc">the union wrote in its comments, "and we cannot support yet another layer of federal mandates that have little or no research base of success and that usurp state and local government's responsibilities for public education."

It added: "Despite growing evidence to the contrary, it appears that the administration has decided that charter schools are the only answer to what ails America's public schools -- urban, suburban, exurban and rural -- and all must comply with that silver bullet."
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. You, and WaPo? There's a winning combo. How else can you
Edited on Fri Aug-21-09 11:16 PM by babylonsister
trash Dems? I just can't wait. :eyes:
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Do you have children?
I ask this because you attacked the poster, and didn't comment on the subject matter.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. If she ever does comment on subject matter, you should mark the calendar and alert the media. n/t
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 08:17 AM by QC
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #3
30. Yes, grown kids, and grandkids, some who are being home-schooled.
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 09:35 AM by babylonsister
And this poster constantly posts negative stuff. I keep asking what will make him happy, and he never responds. Thus the negativeness from me.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #30
75. Why are you always attacking DU'ers and now the school teachers.
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Clintonista2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #75
134. Because she has nothing of value to add
So she sticks to the attacks.
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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #75
139. Its very sad the DU members can not have a civil discussion without
being attacked.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:55 AM
Original message
+1
Yes, the OP deserves a definite :eyes:
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
100. the NEA?
why don't you respond to the article instead of attacking the messenger?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #100
101. On the New & Improved DU, unions are very, very bad.
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 08:50 AM by QC
Get with the program, toots.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #101
110. it's been kind of fascinating
watching some of our resident uber lefties turn into pom pom wavers for center right policy this last year...
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #110
112. Well, "fascinating" is one way to describe it.
"Creepy" is another.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #112
115. it's almost like this...
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #115
117. More like this.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. Yup (nt)
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #101
123. Supporting labor does not mean assuming all unions are unselfish, benevolent organizations.
Especially when it comes to labor unions in the public sector. The traditional labor model works fine in the private sector, when it's the interests of the workers versus capital. It's something totally different when self-interest conflicts with what is in the best interest of society. Thus you get the cop unions protecting bad cops, and etc.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
61. Charter schools are PUBLIC schools, but attaching teacher evaluation to standardized test results is
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 03:22 PM by RBInMaine
a BAD way to go. It is a better approach to hold the entire school accountable, much as they already do, but the No Child Left Behind law, largely unfunded, goes too far in some ways. i.e. Requiring constant and never-ending "adequate yearly progress" needs boundaries. Standardized test reults are greatly influenced by student cohort demographics, parental involvement, school census numbers, etc. etc. Schools and districts MUST have high standards, but educational performance is such a fluid human behavioral phenomenon with so many variables, that simply loading on more and more mandates will not necessarily result in a better outcome. Indeed, overloading teachers, administrators, and students can work in the WRONG direction. In many places they are having a darn hard time recruiting teachers, and burnout and turnover rates are very high. Teachers are not machines. They are human beings, and if working conditions become too insane, you kill your very intention.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #61
88. Public School Money without The Accountability
Cozy little arrangement if I do say so myself.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Where is there no "accountability" ? Graduation rates? College-acceptance rates? SAT scores?
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 07:19 PM by WinkyDink
Merit Scholars?

These state-wide tests are farcical.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. I will home school before I send my child to
a charter school. The handwriting was on the wall the minute Arne Duncan was sworn in.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. I will send my child to a charter school before I home school.
Trained, professional, teachers know much more about childhood education than I.

In addition, the charter and magnet schools in my hometown are much better than the generic public schools who only seem to be generating Wal-Mart education, while all but ignoring what's going on in their schools.

Maybe you're in a different environment, but I carried a handgun to school from the ages of 12-16, as there were knife fights in the halls. My teachers, for the most part, recited speeches as if they were asleep, and collected their paychecks while turning a blind eye to the actual education of their students. Homework counted more for a grade than any actual education.

I eventually dropped out of high-school to go to college, where education wasn't run like a puppy mill. Maybe public schools are better in your area, I certainly hope so, but not all places are the same.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Public schools don't have "trained, professional" teachers?
Edited on Fri Aug-21-09 11:49 PM by brentspeak
But charter schools do?

Also, how would you know how teachers teach inside of a charter or magnet school -- do you go back and re-enroll?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Public schools often have some "trained, professional" teachers, too.
They also have a lot of cruft, who really don't give a damn.

Charter schools, private schools, or even public schools who can fire teachers who have simply given up, all have means of figuring out who still belongs, and who is making education worse, rather than better.

How would I know about charter and magnet? I know six teachers, who looked at what different schools offered, and mandated, and all took different routes. Three of them went charter/private, three went public. Of those six, three of them I met in magnet schools *I* went to, and two of them are my brothers, and one is a sister-in-law.

I've had a fair bit of exposure on the topics involved.





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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
32. "how would you know how teachers teach inside...a charter or magnet " You're against magnet schools?
Did you read the NEA assessment? You know, the one you're salivating over because you believe it's an attack. From the NEA

We urge the Administration to step outside of this narrow agenda and embrace the diversity of choices available to students, parents, school districts, and states across the country. Well-designed charters are not the only way to innovate, and we need to embrace and champion other models such as magnet schools.


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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. I never said I was against magnet schools
Continue with your attempt to shift the discussion/get it off track.
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
81. I was actively involved in Education for many years
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 03:29 PM by goclark
I have been a teacher and an Administrator.

Charter Schools were designed to break the backs of the Unions and to allow Private Companies to make money.

They have been extremely successful in doing so.

The qualifications for teaching in Charter Schools originally focused on hiring the cheapest labor thus Charters had many young staff members or teachers that could not get jobs at a public school for various reasons.

I evaluated Charters as well as Public(including Magnets) from 2000 -2004 for two major universities. I visited often and know that the quality and standards did not have to meet those of the Public Schools.

The class settings were smaller ~ that could be a plus or a minus. Parents ran the office with one Secretary. The Principal rotated to several schools, thus a Head Teacher was "in charge" making a few $'s more to handle that position -- no experience was necessary. No administrative credential was required to do the job.

There were few if any guidelines for safety.
For example, one elementary school had no library books other than the ones that the parents provided.

The elementary school was on the second floor of a church. The parking lot was the " playground."


It was/is heartbreaking to watch.

Now I see Public Schools closing all over the place.

In California, a long standing Public School High School was "given" to a Charter Company because the school district could no longer handle the expense of maintaining it.

This was a school that for all its struggles in an Urban setting had a long tradition of doing the best for families for at least 40 years --- all the land and the equipment was given to the Charter School Company.

Charters are also a way to make parents that feared the Urban settings feel that their children would be "protected" and given more attention.

That was a major reason that many parents in Urban settings rushed to pull their children out of the Public Schools.

I could go on and on but believe me now or believe me later.

Edit: After posting I saw this link ~ it expresses my thoughts exactly...
http://www.examiner.com/x-12824-Dade-County-Education-Policy-Examiner~y2009m7d6-Who-profits-from-forprofit-charter-schools-in-Florida


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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #81
138. Assuaging the fears of parents about urban settings is important
Maybe there is a better way than charter schools but charter schools are certainly a way to do this.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. So, please tell me how a charter school
would work better and what they are doing differently? The three charter schools in my area do not carry the reputation that the public schools enjoy. From several friends I have that are teachers in my area, the hiring practices are not as stringent as the county's - that bothers me, as well as to the academic curriculum which is based on this book - Teaching Children to Care: Management in the Responsive Classroom (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0961863617/ref=cm_rdp_product_img) - sorry, that doesn't cut it.

Changing over to a system that is not designed to work everywhere is not the answer .. kinda like NCLB to begin with.

And carrying a hand gun to school? I am truly sorry your educational experience sucked, but for me, having public education is preferable to a corporation run school.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. "Changing over to a system that is not designed to work everywhere"...
A public system which is designed to work the same way everywhere is broken.

NCLB showed us why.

Perhaps that's where we part ways.

How can charters and magnets work better:
1. Purpose driven educations. Students good at music, or poetry, aren't being judged the same way.
2. Students and superiors can fire bad apples (I know a teacher in the public system who threatened to murder her students over a missing cellphone.... she was transferred, not fired).
3. Regional education can make sense, sailboat classes in Idaho are useless, as are farming classes in LA.

As far as assuming "a corporation" runs a charter school, you do know that there are non-profit charter schools, right? Partnership charter schools? Home-schooling (single owner corporation) schools?
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. "Students and superiors can fire bad apples"
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 09:34 AM by brentspeak
That's a first: a teacher threatens murder, and is not fired. Sounds like something Sean Hannity (or Arne Duncan) would cite in order to drum up support for undermining teacher unions: hunt down the most incredible scenario possible, then use it as a universal cudgel against tenure.

I went to a public school, and though I wasn't specifically taught about logical fallacies and their various technical names, my critical facilities were somehow honed well enough to detect them.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Dont be a tool
My wife is a teacher and the teacher next door kicked a student and wasnt fired despite the whole class witnessing it. These things happen daily. The principal at this school has been working her ass off to get rid of this teacher and the union stands in her way.

Change is needed.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. There were a couple of teachers from my high school easily fired for some things
So all these "the union stood in the way" stories are the exceptions, not the rules. Your wife can be the first to demonstrate that "change is needed" and voluntarily give up her tenure.

Thanks, at least, for announcing your contempt for the teachers' union. At least you're being open about it, unlike Obama, Arne Duncan, and the for-profit school "reformers".
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. My wife isn't in the union
She didn't join because they have no teeth here. They can stand in the way of firings by requiring arbitrations but they are prohibited by law from going on strike. Not much you can do to force any kind of issue if the threat of a walk out is not there.

How in the world would you know what is the exception? My wifes school is one of the top schools in the district which also happens to be the 5th largest school district in the US. Her principle is outstanding she is all about the students and getting them the best education possible and she will leave no stone unturned to do so. She was aware the teacher that kicked the student was a bad apple long before she actually kicked a kid and had been compiling a portfolio of things on her in order to get her removed. Even with that and the fact that she kicked a student with plenty of witnesses this teacher could not be removed from the classroom until all of the mediation and arbitration had been concluded. She did not return this year at least not to my wifes school but she finished out the last 6 months of the last year after the incident happened because she was protected from removal by the union contract with the district.

Eventually she was removed but the class and school was stuck with her for the last 6 months of the last year. This is not acceptable despite your claim of easily removed.

There are certainly instances where the Unions protect teachers that are in need of protection from discrimination or other unfair practices and thats great but it also has the effect of allowing bad teachers to game the system and use the Unions to protect their bad behavior.

The system is broken and doing the same thing over and over will not fix it. Something has to be done.

Oh and there is no such thing as tenure in grade school teachers here so I guess it will be easy for her to give that up.

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. You weren't taught logical fallacies?
Uhm, ok. Here's a starting point:

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

I think you might be tickling upon arguments of the extreme, where the bizarre is cited, without the norm being referenced or acknowledged.

As far as the issue I cited, the union made sure she got into counseling, and away from students... but this is not unlike the issues where a "bad cop" comes up, and the unions defend bad cop, after bad cop, after bad cop, while vehemently insisting that there isn't a pattern, or a systemic problem.

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #29
125. And here come the "teachers can do no wrong" sycophants.
"Sounds like something Sean Hannity (or Arne Duncan) would cite in order to drum up support for undermining teacher unions: hunt down the most incredible scenario possible, then use it as a universal cudgel against tenure."

Accusing people of ulterior motives without evidence and implying guilt by association is a common tactic of the ideologue.

:eyes:
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #20
69. Then it's different all over -
I just spent the evening with one of my friends, an eight grade algebra teacher at a public middle school. Teachers at the charter schools in our area are not required to have the level of accreditation that the public schools do. The magnet schools in our area (my son attends one) is part of the public school system, it is not separate and they apply the same standards as the rest - but because of cost of busing, they may have to limit the number of applications in the future because they can not afford to send buses all over the county for one school - this would be the same for any charter school, since they are not neighborhood driven. Also, there are many inconsistencies in the learning curriculum - as my friend can attest to. She has a friend that does work in one of the three charter schools and from her conversations with her, the kids in the charter school environment are not receiving the prep for high school/college - many of the classes have two to three grades lumped together. They are also allowed to teach what ever the hell they want - with no repercussions on teaching religious ideology or anything else that may cross the line on the separation of church and state and other political no-no's. The teachers in the charter school environment here are worked longer hours and not given the same benefits as the teachers that work for the county, and they are paid less. As for your three points, I have seen no evidence of any of it either being suppressed, not done nor any attempt to not have "regional" education - we live on the coast and there is a lot of teaching here about living in a coastal environment through science projects and off school activities.

So yes, I would home school my children if it meant that or a charter school. The problem really lies with the community - how different would your school environment been if there were nothing but charter schools? The same kids with the same parents would be attending. What would have been different? Are you suggesting that perhaps they school becomes the parent? And yes, I know of the different forms of a charter school - but using the cover of a failed NCLB program to justify the infiltration of charter schools is not the answer and jumping on that band wagon only strengthens the case for NCLB - catch 22 and a position that I am against for it's a lazy way to solve a problem. How long before an all charter school system becomes just like the public school system of today?
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 04:02 AM
Response to Reply #69
71. Great question at the end of your post.
"How long before an all charter school system becomes just like the public school system of today?"

When the workforce is graded on qualified metrics like satisfaction, not quantifiable metrics.
When the system becomes so powerful that any alternative is met with massive resistance.
When the education is so bad that people scream for alternatives.
When schools cannot be shut down for mis-management and gross negligence.

It sounds like the charters in your area are... uhm... bad. Having some bad charters, or some bad public schools, or some bad privates, in any one place, doesn't justify shutting down a concept.

I'm big on letting a thousand flowers bloom, and culling the bad ones.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #11
124. +1
Most of the teachers I had in high school were, frankly, incompetent simpletons.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Kick - rec'd earlier....
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texastoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. This is wrong
What we need is less administration in the public schools and less micromanagement. Racing to the top means freeing up the teachers to teach and paying them well for doing so.

However, I have had some "teachers" who were just collecting a paycheck and didn't care about whether kids learned anything. Keeping those off the payroll is part of any plan to make the schools better and to pay the teachers who are truly called to teach.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well, I tried to recommend, but it stays below zero.
People at DU are refusing to see what is happening in our schools.

This admin has put teachers down several times, and talked down to their unions.

Do a search on my name and arne. I am passionate on this.

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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I'm going to continue to kick - with me?
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. That's because, in addition to a lot of naive cheerleaders, the DLC/K-Street crowd work this site
Edited on Fri Aug-21-09 11:39 PM by brentspeak
A few professional posters, PR flacks, who tout various DLC-type policies on behalf of Big Insurance or, in this case, the http://www.examiner.com/x-12824-Dade-County-Education-Policy-Examiner~y2009m7d6-Who-profits-from-forprofit-charter-schools-in-Florida">charter school industry (this article explains who, precisely, is profiting from charter schools in Florida).
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. That's a good article about who benefits from charter schools here.
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. Chicago has had some success, and do need accountability for charters. Duncan wants more power to
Edited on Fri Aug-21-09 11:58 PM by MarjorieG
parents, a good thing. NEA and unions tend to be one-note about our public schools, and here in NY, solutions are a lot more complicated. I would like public schools strengthened, but how, and same old alliances aren't working.
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #9
55. How much are the professional posters being paid?
I'm curious.

By the way, in states less backwards than Florida, charter schools are non-profit and not affiliated with big bad corporations.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
127. Got any proof of your accusations?
Edited on Mon Aug-24-09 11:48 PM by Odin2005
Or are you just ASSumming that everyone who disagrees with you is an evil paid hack?
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
79. paranoia... thinking people are paid to post here, you have it
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 11:29 AM by dionysus
yes, the wall street barons are paying their minions some serious scratch to post on a message boa- wait, that's so ridiculous an idea, i can't believe anyone believes it.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
90. brentspeaks For Me
:patriot: :thumbsup: :hi:
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #6
24. Many people around here hold teachers in contempt,
so they have been humping the unrec button.

That happens anytime someone has the audacity to suggest that Obama and his appointees do not shit pink ice cream.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #24
91. DUzy,
That is all.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #91
102. I've gotten them before, but that post certainly won't get one.
It implies that there is something wrong with unthinking adoration of politicians, and that's forbidden on The New & Improved DU.

Think happy thoughts!
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last_texas_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. K and R. The administration's approach on education
is almost completely wrongheaded, IMHO. Many aspects of it differ little from *'s, despite the general recognition of NCLB among both educators and the public as a failure.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
10. Kicking for content
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
12. "Attacks"? From the NEA statement
August 21, 2009

VIA eRulemaking Portal: www.regulations.gov


Secretary of Education Arne Duncan
c/o Office of Elementary and Secondary Education
Attn: Race to the Top Comments
U.S. Department of Education
400 Maryland Avenue, SW, Room 3W329
Washington, DC 20202


Re: Race to the Top Fund

The National Education Association appreciates the opportunity to comment on the Notice of Proposed Priorities, Requirements, Definitions, and Selection Criteria published in the July 29, 2009 Federal Register regarding the Race to the Top Fund.

On Friday, July 24, 2009, the Department of Education unveiled a package of proposals and priorities designed to invite comment on ways to reform the public education system in this country—the Race to the Top proposal subsequently was published in the Federal Register. It is clear that this Administration cares about students and it is clear that NEA and this Administration share the same goal: to dramatically transform the public education system so that every public school is a center of excellence and all students gain the skills and education they need to become lifelong learners and healthy, productive citizens in this global society.

Admirable Goals
NEA appreciates that the Obama Administration is speaking out about a crucial truth: The current system is failing many students. If nothing changes, up to half of America’s school children who are poor and minority will not graduate from high school—a situation that is not only deplorable, but criminal as well.

NEA applauds the Obama Administration for keeping its commitment to deliver resources to support and improve the public education system. Earlier this year, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) was enacted, and in July, the Administration unveiled $4.35 billion of those funds as part of the Race to the Top competitive grant program. With the other grant funds described that day, the federal investment will be close to $10 billion. NEA applauds the Obama Administration’s commitment to students at risk—the grant funds are targeted to schools in the highest poverty areas.

NEA applauds the fact that the RTTT grant applications require the support of teachers and other school staff—for far too long the voices of educators have been ignored.

NEA applauds the fact that the RTTT grant competition will require states to adopt internationally recognized high standards, as well as better tests and more comprehensive tracking of multiple lines of evidence of student achievement.

NEA applauds the fact that the Obama Administration continues to emphasize the importance of teacher quality in student success, and that schools that face the toughest challenges must have the most talented, qualified people available.

Proposal Misses the Mark
Up to this point, the NEA has been a vocal supporter of the Obama Administration’s plans to transform public education by being “tight” on goals, but “looser” in how you achieve them. We were in total agreement with the sentiments expressed by Secretary Duncan in a speech at the National Press Club on May 29, 2009 when he said: “You know, when I was in Chicago, I didn’t think all the good ideas came from Washington. Now that I’m in Washington, I know all the good ideas don’t come from Washington. The good ideas are always going to come from great educators in local communities. And we want to continue to empower them.”

Given the details of the July Race to the Top grant proposal, NEA must now ask: Where did that commitment to local communities go?

The details of the RTTT proposal do not seem to square with the Administration’s earlier philosophy. The Administration’s theory of success now seems to be tight on the goals and tight on the means, with prescriptions that are not well-grounded in knowledge from practice and are unlikely to meet the goals. We find this top-down approach disturbing; we have been down that road before with the failures of No Child Left Behind, and we cannot support yet another layer of federal mandates that have little or no research base of success and that usurp state and local government’s responsibilities for public education.

Instead of focusing on strengthening enforcement of civil rights laws to promote access and opportunity for students, the Administration has chosen the path of a series of top-down directives that may discourage rather than encourage productive innovation in classrooms and schools across the country. Despite growing evidence to the contrary, it appears that the Administration has decided that charter schools are the only answer to what ails America’s public schools—urban, suburban, exurban, and rural—and all must comply with that silver bullet, despite the fact that charters have often produced lower achievement gains than district-run public schools.

We urge the Administration to step outside of this narrow agenda and embrace the diversity of choices available to students, parents, school districts, and states across the country. Well-designed charters are not the only way to innovate, and we need to embrace and champion other models such as magnet schools.

Assessing student learning is another area where we need more and better options. What is being proposed is simply tweaking the current top-down, federally mandated insistence on hewing to standardized test scores. We know that model is not working, so basing even more educational decisions on these same test scores is counterproductive and counterintuitive. Enough is enough.

<...>

In addition to these overall comments, we have provided detailed comments below on several priority issues.

Thank you in advance for your consideration of NEA’s comments and we look forward to discussing this matter with the appropriate staff. I can be reached via telephone at (202) 822-7946 or via email at kbrilliant@nea.org.

Sincerely,

/Kay Brilliant/

Kay Brilliant, Director
Education Policy and Practice Department


WaPo took an indepth assessment paper and turned it into "attack"




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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-21-09 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #12
38. it is an attack
It states that the Administration's goals are admirable but it's solutions are not.

You can't spin this
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. "It states that the Administration's goals are admirable but it's solutions are not."
It's idiotic to call a disagreement an attack.

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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #39
44. oh, ok
a disagreement is not an attack

anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot

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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
56. Clearly the NEA is in bed with the the Man.
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
21. The stimulus saved billions for schools that would have been slashed in state budget cuts
President Obama has opposed voucher schemes, and the NEA ought to be grateful for that.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
49. Stimulus dollars for education are tied
to union-busting privatization reforms.

Most of the stimulus money for education has not been released yet. Most of what has been released has not yet reached schools, and did not prevent the massive RIFs, cuts, and cancellations in programs that swept the nation this spring.

When it is released, those states who don't jump on board the union-busting privatization "reforms" Duncan backs won't be getting any.

Charter schools are simply a different kind of voucher.

This NEA member is not "grateful" for the Obama/Duncan public education destruction juggernaut.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. +1
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #49
103. +2
it's hard to understand how anyone on the left side of the aisle can support what the Obama administration is up to here. These are conservative ideas that are being promoted. Period.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
22. Teachers don't like performance-related plans. So....what is THEIR plan to
improve education? The U.S. is lagging behind in several areas. What is THEIR solution to that?

Or are they just saying "No"? Hmmm....that sounds familiar.

Performance-related programs are the only way to go, as I see it. WHICH performance-related program is up for grabs. If the NEA hasn't proposed a plan, then I guess we'll have to go with the administration's.

One thing is for sure: It couldn't get much worse than it is. And....you don't go to the people who are responsible for the problem, and expect to suddenly get the solution.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. "Performance-related programs are the only way to go"
Explain?
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #28
40. To improve education, or at least the part dealing with the instructors,
the plan for improvement must be tied to performance. As opposed to simply requiring this, or requiring that. There must be some gauge of the instructors' performances over a period of time. It doesn't necessarily have to be a test, but it could be. It could also simply be statistics showing improvement in drop-out rates, or college attendance rates, etc.

Teachers quite naturally, just like the rest of us, would not be in favor of plans examining their performance, if they don't have to have such a plan. I get evaluated every year, sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. My raise (if any) is based on those evaluations, as well as hours billed (I bill for my time). If I had MY way, I'd get a raise every year based on my tenure, attendance, ability to get along with others, etc. I suppose that's human nature.

In the business world, businesses tend to improve their employees' performances by tying it to performance evaluations of one sort or another.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Teachers do get evaluated.
I get evaluated every semester.

This notion that teachers, along among all professionals in the world, are never evaluated is simply a right wing talking point that has, like an awful lot of other wingnut propaganda, lately become very popular on this site.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #43
72. Good. Then teachers are okay with an education improvement plan based on evaluations?
Great! Glad to hear that. I guess that article quoting the NEA is wrong.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. Teachers are already evaluated. What most teachers do not want
is for that evaluation to be based on little or nothing besides standardized tests.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. The plan isn't stated to be that. The article says the NEA doesn't want performance
based plan.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. "Performance based plan," in practice, generally means test scores.
It's easier to read the score report and move on to the next committee meeting or whatever than to observe classes, look at teaching portfolios, administer students evaluations with narrative responses, and so on.

So, in practice, test scores have become the default means by which k-12 teachers are evaluated.

That's a terrible idea.
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
59. Was clear that performance wouldn't always be tests, but include other opinions/factors.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
45. Teachers are constantly evaluated by everyone in the system.
With very little input from them. Formal evaluations in writing.

Teachers have become low man on the totem pole in our country. It was planned and deliberate.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #22
62. You are entirely ignorant. There are all kinds of "plans" all over the place. Here's some education
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 03:43 PM by RBInMaine
for you:
1) First, MANY other countries do not include their special ed kids, lower performing kids, etc. in their testing stats. We do. It affects the results, bigtime. Indeed, under NCLB, many schools labeled "underperforming" are listed because of the results of testing results among he lower performing cohorts such as special ed students. (No fault to the kids, I'm just explaining here.)

2) Many other countries have longer school days and school years.

3) Many other countries are smaller and/or more homogeneous with a different culture and ethic regarding education throughout the nation. We are very, very diverse in this country as to this.
I see it right in my own town. One middle school has the richer kids, another the lower income. Same quality teachers. Same quality admin. Same programming. Guess who score better on tests? You got it, the richer kids' school does better. It's called DEMOGRAPHIC DIFFERENTIALS.

4) All states have educational standards, content standards, and teacher/admin. certification standards. Teachers and administrators are constantly going to trainings, taking classes,... States already have all kind of standardized testing programs. States and NCLB already impose heavy academic requirements. MANY districts and schools also use all kinds of innovative and time tested programs, methods, research-based best practices, etc. to improve eduational outcomes. In Maine we have just revised our very challenging state-level Maine Learning Results program.

5) ** Please educate yourself better before you go bashing public education. I work in the system, and we work our butts off ! No one outside the system has any concept of how challenging it is. Most people would run away screaming in horror. But we stay. We are dedicated. We care. We try like hell with what we have. Slamming us with heaps and heaps of new mandates won't help. There are already more mandates than schools and districts can handle. At some point we need to plan and instruct, not just do paperwork and go to endless meetings to cover mandates. This is why I say we need to be careful. Over mandating kills the very purpose because it causes burnout and high turnover, and it overwhelms kids.

6) We put humans on the moon. We know what works. **** Here's an idea, start mandating lazy, uninvolved, dysfunctional parents to read to their kids and make them do their homework. There's thought.
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RBInMaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. How about mandating LAZY, DYSFUNCTIONAL, INEFFECTIVE PARENTS to make their
kids do their homework. Now there's a novel idea.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #63
70. +1
That is probably the biggest part of the problem - zero to none parent involvement. And because of that, teachers get blamed so they are screaming to "change the system". The same kids with the same parents will still be going to school, so what has really changed?
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #70
108. +2
I agree 100%, and let's also evaluate principals, superintendents, and any other person who is part of the school community.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #63
129. Gee, maybe those parents work 2.5 jobs and don't have the fucking time?
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
141. WOW!!! What will you think of next?????
*** I come from a long line of former and current teachers. I didn't get into it because I know I didn't have it in me to do the incredible job that they did and are doing.****

My kudos to all teachers here on DU.

Everyone here who bashes teachers should spend a year with them at school AND at home. Including Arne Duncan.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
82. Nice of you to ask.
This teacher has shared ideas for improving education for decades.

Those in power don't listen to teachers, though. They are too busy with the anti-teacher propaganda.

You are correct. You don't go to the people who are responsible for the problem, and expect to suddenly get the solution.

That's why you don't go to politicians. It's also why you don't go to the business community, and look for non-educator CEOs to run education on the business model, which simply doesn't work for public education.

If you want to improve education, you empower educators to do so.

Do you really want to know how to improve public education? I'll hunt up a few of the many posts I've offered up at DU on the subject, and give you some links to others with constructive ideas. All kinds of constructive ideas have been out there all along, and there are some organizations who have come together to promote them. They contradict the "standards and accountability movement" that has provided so much political capital for politicians for decades now, though, so they tend not to get any mainstream time or attention.

My response is # 17 in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=12374#12645

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=219&topic_id=12421&mesg_id=12485
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=219x12806
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3475978

http://www.essentialschools.org/pub/ces_docs/about/org/execboard/ted_page.html
http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/
http://www.fairtest.org/empowering-schools-and-improving-learning
http://educationontheplate.wordpress.com/2009/08/10/a-better-idea-for-improving-teaching/
http://www.rethinkingschools.org/
http://www.21stcenturyskills.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=254&Itemid=120
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gerald-bracey/righting-wrongs_b_75189.html
http://www.ibo.org/
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #82
92. And don't forget this one. The teacher comments at ED.gov offer...
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 08:12 PM by YvonneCa
...a wealth of ideas for successfully improving public schools. What Duncan offers...so far...will backfire. Sadly, the students are the ones it would hurt most.

http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/07/secretary-arne-duncan-speaks-at-nea-conference-invites-comm/


More: http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/05/secretary-arne-duncan-takes-listening-tour-online-invites-comments-on-raising-standards/
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #92
95. Thanks for reminding me.
I should have remembered, since I've got two different responses there, too.

:hi:
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #95
96. I know you do...
... :hug:
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #96
116. I Have One Too
Not as good as yours though.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #116
121. I read yours. It was very...
...good. ;)
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #82
109. Excellent, As Always
:) :hi: :kick:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
128. Many of these same posters were rightfully attacking cops sticking up for bad cops...
...and yet criticizing the coddling of bad teachers is somehow bad. The hypocrisy reeks.
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d_r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
25. question
Public schools are required by law to educate every single child. They can not turn away any child based on differences in ability, background, or so on. Are charter schools also subject to this law? Must they accept every child, must they provide appropriate education for every child, must they determine the least restrictive environment that every child can succeed in and include the children in those environments?

Private schools don't, but I honestly don't know about charter schools and I am curious.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Not around here. Charter school = Publicly funded private school.
Perhaps it's different other places, but around here the charter schools can pick 'n choose students who fit their "mission."
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donco6 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
33. Charter schools here in Colorado can and do turn away SPED kids.
They can keep the mild speech/language kids, but anything else, they turn away with "we can't meet his needs here."

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #25
41. Here is the NEA on charter schools
• We should not continue to narrowly focus on charter schools as the only model of reform for schools worthy of serious attention.

There are good charter schools and there are very bad charter schools. It all depends on how well they are designed and how they are held accountable. Charter schools were originally started as places where educators, communities, and parents who wanted to try something out of the box—such as scheduling or curriculum or parental involvement or ways to motivate students and could experiment—in the hopes that if we found something that worked well, we could scale it up to other public schools.

Putting a cap on the number of charters in a state makes sense so that states can put good systems in place to approve, monitor, evaluate, and hold these charter schools accountable. Among the states that have had the most egregious examples of corruption, mismanagement, and incompetence in charter schools is Arizona, a state that has very lax rules on design and accountability and, not surprisingly, no limit on the number of charter schools that can be established in that state.

Where charters are working well, they are highly accountable, non-selective public schools where public school employees are given unprecedented freedom to experiment with success models that can be scaled up. Taking the caps off charter schools means LESS accountability as monitoring agencies would not have the time and resources to ensure that every charter school would be held to high standards.

Furthermore, the RTTT proposal insists on states adopting a charter school law that “does not…effectively inhibit increasing the number of charter schools in the state…” The “effectively inhibit” language is overbroad and vague, providing ample opportunity for federal interference with state authority to determine how and under what standards charters are authorized and monitored.

Additionally, there are 11 states that do not have charter school laws for varying reasons. For example, Washington State’s citizens have had votes at least three times, and overwhelming majorities voted charters down. When the people of a state speak in this democratic union, the government should listen. Creating a proposal that focuses its efforts for innovation primarily on charters violates that principle and ignores the other kinds of innovation and creativity happening in the public school system—such as magnet schools, academies and any number of innovative programs from which parents can choose.

In some states, like Montana, the administration’s proposal on charter schools is unconstitutional. It isn’t just unworkable—it is unconstitutional. Under Montana’s standard of accreditation, which was recommended by the State Superintendent and adopted by the Board of Public Education, charter schools are permissible—but none have been chartered. Requiring the opening of charter schools in one of the most rural states in the nation does not make sense.

The proposal also would usurp Montana collective bargaining rights, statutory rights, and local school board governance. The Montana state legislature would be involved in school governance, something MEA-MFT has successfully fought for decades.

If education reform is to be done with teachers and their representatives, instead of to us, it is important that the administration understand what is working already. Montana has a strong public education system. It can be improved, and it is committed to improving education, especially for Native American students, but not at the expense of its state constitution, and not at the expense of members’ statutory and collective bargaining and rights.

Lastly, we urge the Administration to start highlighting models in addition to charters. For example, magnets promote racial and socioeconomic integration more effectively than charters, while offering the same advanced academics and unique courses that make both models popular among parents, according to a 2008 report from the Civil Rights Project at University of California, Los Angeles. The report found that magnets embody a key advantage over charter schools, namely, integration: Magnets promote it, while charter schools can exacerbate racial isolation.

link (doc)



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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. That's odd.
I agree with almost every word of that, yet I'd get accused of wanting to undermine public schools if I were to post similar thoughts and call them my own.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
50. Not in either of the two states I've taught in.
Charter schools are a way of creating "tiers" of public education. They don't have to accept every applicant. They can exit students who don't "fit." They can cap enrollment. They can stay smaller.

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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Not hard to be a great success when you can cherry pick
the smartest kids, the ones with no disabilities and involved parents, etc.

Give me my pick of students and I, too, can create an "A School."

Anybody can.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Exactly. nt
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d_r Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
64. I was worried about that.
That was my concern - big whoop if you can cherry pick students, and then you show some success. Ultimately, if left unchecked, that would play out to the public schools being left with the children who have the toughest time ahead of them.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. That's the purpose of the scheme--leaving the "bad kids" in the public schools
and moving little Brytneigh and Meighan and Dakota to the nice charter school, where they can be safe from the poorer and darker children.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
27. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##



This week is our third quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
36. christ almighty. i'll give you points for sheer perserverance, and lack of shame.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #36
104. do you support the NEA in this?
Address the artilcle instead of attacking the OP.



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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. That would mean he would have to do all that thinking thing. Ewwwh. nt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
46. Gomer Norquist's proudest accomplishment
is how many supposedly "progressives" he has filled with the lie that teachers are lazy, schools hurt children, we need more corporate intervention in education.

Over and over it is apparent that DU stalwarts have bought the idea. When Gomer gets his reports about how the battle to turn America in America Inc. he has to feel a little shiver of accomplishment when he reads the summary of how well they have penetrated into our ranks.

So you guys who don't know shit about education (maybe you got caught smoking in the gym when you were in the seventh grade) but can recite the neocon education mantra all day, go ahead and keep showing your ignorance about how learning takes place and how it stops. Keep on bashing schools. It gives Norquist a little orgasm with every one of your posts.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. It's amazing how much right wing propaganda has become conventional wisdom on DU.
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 12:21 PM by QC
It's almost as though this site has made a very hard lurch to the right in the past couple of years.

That might be why so many of the longtime members who built this community have drifted away. It might even, perish the thought, explain why the fund-raising drives are so slow lately.
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #47
98. And just like the dumber republicans
they think they are the ones who "have the inside track", that they are the smart ones.

Ever try to argue with one of those conservatives who gets all their info from rush and thinks they are well informed?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #98
120. You are exactly right. n/t
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. All teachers are perfect, all public schools are flawless, and nothing should change.
Is that any better?

Buying into ideological extremism comes in many forms.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. No, that's not any better.
Nobody is perfect, and no teacher is perfect. No school is flawless. Plenty needs to change.

If you want authentic, positive, constructive change, ask teachers. They know better than non-educators what kind of change is needed.

Allowing politicians to destroy public education through their corrupt power-mongering is devoid of integrity.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #60
68. Nor is it better to set up a 'straw man' simplistic argument...
...and then knock that down. NO ONE is saying " All teachers are perfect, all public schools are flawless, and nothing should change." Especially not the teachers here or at ED.gov.

We just offer solutions to the REAL problems that have a chance to actually work. For your reading pleasure... :)

http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/05/secretary-arne-duncan-takes-listening-tour-online-invites-comments-on-raising-standards/




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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #60
97. OOOH. That was Norquist having another orgasm.
He understands your sarcasm and he understands how bereft of information that post was.

That is exactly the tone and level of thinking he had hoped to engender. You little minx, you. You ought to start charging him.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 01:58 PM
Response to Original message
48. And if you didn't see it coming, you weren't paying attention.
Remember the FOX interview? When asked what Republicans get right, he responded with public education.

There is a reason why the NEA waited for him to lock up the primaries before issuing a weak endorsement, and why he didn't bother to show up to accept the endorsement in person.

Obama is not a friend of public education.
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joeycola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #48
140. But he has his friend Arne Duncan
in place to push money into charter schools and high stakes testing like he did in Chicago.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
53. The NEA endorsed Obama knowing he supports charter schools, then whines when
he keeps this campaign promise.

Brilliant!

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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #53
67. There was no one left to endorse,
unless you expected them to endorse McCain/Palin.

Not that it was a warm endorsement, and not that Obama was exactly warm expecting it.

The NEA booed Obama's education plan when he first presented it. They didn't exactly cheer it when they endorsed him. Obama did not show up to accept that endorsement in person.

It's never been a friendly relationship.

I'm an NEA member, and their endorsement sickened me, even though I understood it. I've always known that Obama was no friend to public education, and that we would suffer under an Obama administration.

I'm just surprised that it took them this long to stand up. I wanted them to stand up and offer a smack down when he first appointed the union-busting privatizer Arne Duncan.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #67
83. Not every union endorses a candidate in every race
This is kind of like going to dinner at a kosher restaurant and complaining that there are no pork chops.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #83
93. The NEA represents educators. We care about MANY issues...
...including public education. I still support Obama, and I'm glad the unions endorsed him. I agree with him...WAY more than McCain/Palin...on many issues. I even support 'some' of his ideas on education, but think others are really bad ideas.

He is a smart man. He can learn.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #83
94. That's not a very good analogy.
I'm not going to give up my right, and my responsibility, to vote or to participate in the political process just because the two major parties don't provide a decent menu.

The NEA isn't going to opt out of political action, either.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #53
76. Why are you attacking the teachers and their labor union?

We see enough of that from Republicans.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #76
78. That's the hip thing to do around here lately. Shows how "pragmatic" one is.
"Post-partisan," too.
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Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #78
107. Hope and change will see us through.
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YvonneCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. You are right, and here's an example. The author of this SD Union article always sides...
Edited on Sun Aug-23-09 02:52 PM by YvonneCa
...with the Republican POV of any issue. Read what he says about RTTT by Obama and Duncan here:

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/aug/23/education-deja-vu-all-over-again/?opinion&zIndex=153855

And BTW, I voted Obama and still support him...but he is uninformed on education. I am NOT the 'educational left'...I am a teacher. If anyone here is interested in solutions that will work, check out the teacher comments at Arne's site, here:

http://www.edgovblogs.org/duncan/2009/07/secretary-arne-duncan-speaks-at-nea-conference-invites-comm/

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #76
84. Does it really help teachers for their union to follow an ineffective political strategy?
:shrug:
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. You think they should have supported someone other than Obama in the election?

Like who?

McCain/Palin?

I don't think so.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #85
118. They certainly could have backed someone else in the primary
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
86. Charter Schools: the End of America as We Know It.
:thumbsup:
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
87. Second Thread On This:
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #87
99. Good. Now we need about a dozen more.
I didn't know there was a limit. I guess you warn all those people posting about health care or the war or the bush years that we've already discussed that and it is time to move on.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #99
111. I Agree
Note sure if I sent the wrong signal here Jake, but I don't think it's a bad thing if there are many threads on this, and I think we need more than a dozen more.
It is definitely NOT time to move on JP. In fact, I'll post a new thread on it now. Actually my point in this post was that there seems to be more people paying attention to this, and I am damn glad the NEA has come out against Duncan's one-size-fits-all NCLB on steroids "solution."
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #111
113. Sorry if I misunderstood.
There are just so many DU-come-lately's who play at progressivism but don't understand it.

I'll look for your post. The more the progressiver.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. Here Ya Go JP:
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 09:02 AM
Response to Original message
105. The thing is that it's hard to believe it could get any worse in certain areas
Before Katrina, we had one of the worst public school systems in the country in New Orleans and the charter schools seem to be an improvement. I don't know how much nor how long it will last, though.

Charter schools will probably make some areas better off and some worse off but I think the bottom line is that they ultimately aren't going to fix the problem. It is true that unions and tenure protect bad teachers to a certain extent (any such system will do that). But if we paid teachers six figures and gave them the respect that they do in Europe and Japan, very few bad teachers would ever enter the system in the first place since it would be extremely competitive to get a teaching position.

The fact is that Americans don't value education enough to do those things and thus we're going to keep believing politicians when they tell us that we can fix our education system on the cheap with things like charter schools and high stakes testing that only have anecdotal evidence supporting their success. We get what we pay for and at the end of the day if we're not willing to pay for a first rate education system we aren't going to get one.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
122. *FACEPLAM*
The bashing of charter schools smells of an institutional turf battle of specially interests and ideologues.

Yes, I think the teachers unions have questionable motives. There, I said it. Flame me if you must, I don't care.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
126. Charter Schools are publicly funded PRIVATE schools - and are BAD BAD BAD!!!
they drain funds that could otherwise be used to IMPROVE PUBLIC SCHOOLS!!!

NO TAXPAYER DOLLARS FOR PRIVATE SCHOOLS!!!
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-24-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. Charter schools are public schools.
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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #126
131. That's not an accurate statement.
Perhaps it's true for some, but as a blanket statement it's false. I work at a charter school that is a PUBLIC nonprofit school, run by the same county public school system that runs all the city schools in the county. Paychecks come from the same main office, we're in the same benefit plans, supplies are ordered, scrutinized, and approved by the same chain, and the exact same auditors inspect us as inspect any other public school in the area. There's no corporate ties at all. The county owns our building and equipment just the same as for any other public school in the area.

Answering another question up thread, we're a title one school, we serve a higher percentage of minority students than other schools in our area and the white kids cite being able to go to a diverse school as one of the reasons they LIKE it - if they wanted to get away from minority students they could just go to their neighborhood school. Anyone thinking those aren't segregated is kidding themselves, especially in the Detroit area. Our demographics are kind of crazy and unbelievable, we have about a 50-50 mix of black and white despite being in the most segregated area of the country. And no, we don't turn away special ed kids or underachievers, we can't by law (and wouldn't want to anyway, I'm just saying it's not an option for charters here). The same admission rules that apply everywhere else apply here, with the one exception of living in the community.

I think we have a slightly higher percentage of special ed kids than the other surrounding public schools, though that's not our mission. I think the smaller environment tends to appeal more to those families, because the kids are less likely to get lost in the system.

I know I've said this a number of times on DU, but anyone claiming that neighborhood public schools don't exclude anyone are delusional. The higher priced neighborhoods with the better funded schools exclude low income families all the time, on a far more systematic and massive scale than charter schools could ever do. A poor black kid living in the projects in Detroit isn't allowed to attend a Bloomfield Hills school - we all know that, but we pretend the Bloomfield Hills public schools are open to everyone when it suits our agenda. Schools deny students access to an equal education based on the neighborhoods they live ALL the time - it's the norm, and it's institutional racism and classism at its finest.
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tunacan Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #131
135. Thank you.
Diversity is one of the many reasons I decided to send my child to a charter school half an hour away rather than the home school that's in my neighborhood. Our home school is one of the best in the county, highly qualified teachers, with very involved parents, so it wasn't the specs that was the problem. My son went to a very progressive preschool where the teachers act only as mediators, and I wanted him to continue on with an educational philosophy similar to that as long as possible. I would much rather have him learn to respect differences and to think critically and creatively, rather than learning how to do well on tests and follow authority. So in our case being able to get in the charter school was a life saver-- otherwise I'd be agonizing over how we can't afford to send our only child to a private school in the area that is closest to what we're looking for. But then I'd still have the diversity issue...

True, it is possible to have the kind of education I'm looking for in a non-charter public school, but it depends too much on which teacher my child would have. At our home school's open house I was a little sad to see the stark difference in the K classroom atmosphere depending on who was the teacher. It's not like I'll have a guarantee my child will have the right teacher for him and definitely the school as a whole won't be like that.

Btw, the law in our state is that all charter students are selected by lottery. Siblings do have priority, but only when one of them has already been in the school at least one full year. And yes, they are PUBLIC schools, just like magnet schools in some school districts. The only difference that I know of is that charter schools have more freedom from rules and regulations that other public schools have to abide by. (Unfortunately magnet schools weren't an option for us-- none in our district.)

I'm rather surprised to see that charter school are such a hot topic here when some of them could provide kids with the kind of education that will lead them to be more altruistic. Maybe it's because all states have different charter school laws and that should be fixed first.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-25-09 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #126
132. Many Charter Schools are Publicly Funded and Do Not Select only the best students.
I don't know why this myth lives, that Charter Schools are elite and take money from public schools.

Maybe it varies by state, but in California every freaking Charter School I work with gets the same ADA as it's traditional counterpart.

If it's operated by a county office of education, it gets money the same way as the Elementary School in the city school district, for example.

This is frustrating!

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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-26-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #132
133. Not only are charter schools all private and exclude black/special ed/poor students ...
They also run the death panels for the new health care plan. :)

Ever since the Daily Show interview with Betsy McCaughey, I keep picturing the "charter schools ARE private, they exist because white kids don't want to be in school with black kids, but they don't accept special ed students" crowd thumbing through their binders while Jon Stewart looks on.

I'm laughing, but also I admire the ability of people to persist in knowingly putting out wrong or misleading statements when it supports their agenda. It's a lot easier to argue against all charter schools if you cling to the statement that they are all private - rather than debating the actual facts.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. Because certain special interests benefit from pushing the myth
The mediocre teachers need to protect their position, that's all that matters to them, the well-being of the kids be damned.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #132
137. All charters are publicly funded.
Those that do not filter student populations in one way or another are rare. And even those can cap enrollments.

When your enrollment is capped, you can enroll students "first come, first served," or by lottery.

When it's "first come, first served," it still filters students. Families who have the resources start camping the day before registration forms are accepted.

A charter school may get money the same way, but a charter school is not as accountable for what it does with the money, and does not have to adhere to all the regulations and policies that public schools taking public money do.



http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/21_01/expl211.shtml
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=14163
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6416437
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=219&topic_id=14113
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6407586
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6302116
http://www.blackagendareport.com/?q=content/obamas-public-education-policy-privatization-charters-mass-firings-neighborhood-destabilizat
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Telly Savalas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-30-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #132
142. I know why this myth lives.
It's because dumb assholes post it on the internet in all caps and dumber assholes believe that anything written in all caps on the internet must be true.
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