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So while Matt Taibbi is slamming those fighting for a public option, he is defending Wyden's plan?

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:29 PM
Original message
So while Matt Taibbi is slamming those fighting for a public option, he is defending Wyden's plan?
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 05:29 PM by ProSense
From a diary at Daily Kos, quoting Taibbi's latest article:

The system doesn’t work for anyone. It cheats patients and leaves them to die, denies insurance to 47 million Americans, forces hospitals to spend billions haggling over claims, and systematically bleeds and harasses doctors with the specter of catastrophic litigation

The bad news is our failed health care system won’t get fixed, because it exists entirely within the confines of yet another failed system: the political entity known as the United States of America


Over the course of this summer, those two failed systems have collided in a spectacular crossroads moment in American history. We have an urgent national emergency on the one hand, and on the other, a comfortable majority of ostensibly simpatico Democrats who were elected by an angry population, in large part, specifically to reform health care.

Almost every single one of the main players – from House Speaker Nancy Pelosi to Blue Dog turncoat Max Baucus – found some unforeseeable, unique-to-them way to fuck this thing up.


It’s a joke, the whole thing, a parody of Solomonic governance. By the time all the various bills are combined, health care will be a baby not split in half but in fourths and eights and fractions of eighths. Its what happens when a government accustomed to dealing on the level of perception tries to take on a profound emergency that exists in reality. No matter how hard Congress may try, though, it simply is not possible to paper over a crisis this vast.

Then again, some of the blame has to go to all of us. It’s more than a little conspicuous that the same electorate that poured its heart out last year for the Hallmark-card story line of the Obama campaign has not been seen much in this health care debate. The handful of legislators = the Weiners, Kuciniches, Wydens and Sanderses – who are fighting for something real should be doing so with armies at their back. Instead, all the noise is being made on the other side. Not so stupid after all – they at least, understand that politics is a fight that does not end with wearing of a T-shirt in November.

link

First, on this point: "Instead, all the noise is being made on the other side. Not so stupid after all – they at least, understand that politics is a fight that does not end with wearing of a T-shirt in November. "

Anyone else get the sense that Matt has issues?

In any case, he lumps Pelosi in with Baucus, slams Obama and defends Wyden (who is still withholding support of a public option)? Here is Wyden's plan

Health Care Reform

The Healthy Americans Act would guarantee every American universal, affordable, comprehensive, portable, high-quality, private health coverage that is as good or better than Members of Congress have today.

The Act includes tough cost containment measures - and would save Americans $1.45 trillion over the next decade.

All 46 million uninsured Americans would be covered, for the same funds currently spent by Americans on health care. And every American will feel secure, knowing that your health care won't ever go away.

There are, of course, many details. Here's a few of the highlights.


The Healthy Americans Act:

  • guarantees you private health care coverage that doesn't go away, even if you change jobs, lose your job, retire, go to school, or become too sick to work.

  • provides a generous benefit equal to those of Members of Congress

  • ensures that everyone has affordable health care coverage, including meaningful assistance to low-income Americans.

  • puts you in charge of your health care choices, not your employer

  • makes sure that everyone has the same affordable coverage options, no matter your age, gender, genetic information, or pre-existing health conditions

  • saves $1.48 trillion over 10 years through tough cost containment

  • provides incentives for individuals and insurers to focus on prevention, wellness and disease management

  • creates meaningful and easy-to-understand wellness statistics so that Americans can compare health care plans

  • is fully paid for by spending the $2.2 trillion currently spent on health care in America
Here's how it would work.

For starters, every American will have the power to choose - and will be required to choose - a comprehensive health insurance plan. The plans will be high-quality, at least as good as what Members of Congress have today. Every American will be able to choose from any plan offered in their region; and they can keep their plan even if they change jobs, lose their job, or become too sick to work.

Here's how Jacob Weisberg described the plan in Slate:

Under Wyden's plan, employers would no longer provide health coverage, as they have since World War II. Instead, they'd convert the current cost of coverage into additional salary for employees. Individuals would use this money to buy insurance, which they would be required to have.

Private insurance plans would compete on features and price but would have to offer benefits at least equivalent to the Blue Cross "standard" option. Signing up for insurance would be as easy as ticking off a box on your tax return. In most cases, insurance premiums would be withheld from paychecks, as they are now.

Eliminating employers as an additional payer would encourage consumers to use health care more efficiently. Getting rid of the employer tax deduction, which costs a whopping $200 billion a year, would free up funds to subsidize insurance up to 400 percent of the poverty line, which is $82,000 for a family of four.

The Lewin Group, an independent consulting firm, has estimated that Wyden's plan would reduce overall national spending on health care by $1.5 trillion over the next 10 years and that it would save the government money through great administrative efficiency and competition.

According to that independent analysis, families who have incomes under $40,000 a year will have less out-of-pocket expenses under the HAA than they do now.

Families between $40,000 and $50,000 would pay about $81/year more - about $7 a month. Families between $50,000 and $150,000 would average between $327 and $341 per year more - about $28 a month.

In return for this modest increase these families would have guaranteed coverage that they could never lose, not if they get sick, not if they lose their jobs, not for any reason. This guaranteed coverage would be more comprehensive and include prevention benefits that would help you and your family improve their health. This new coverage would be fully portable - no longer would you need to stay in a job that paid less, or offered less opportunity, just to maintain health coverage. No longer would a parent need to work hours when they needed to be with their children just to maintain full time status for their health insurance.

Yeah, let's throw out a public option and implement an all private giveaway to the insurance companies.

Ludicrous.

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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Taibbi just loves to play contrarian
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 05:56 PM by Teaser
It's all he cares about. From his time at the eXile, to now. He gets off on playing the NEW HUNTER S. THOMPSON.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:42 PM
Original message
Exactly.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Yes, and he's bringing them out in full force with BS like this
The White House makes a serial vacillator like Bill Clinton look like Patton crossing the Rhine.



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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. anyone for starting a non-crazy DU?
.
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Phx_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Wyden's plan is unbelievably bad.
I'm sure we all know what would end up happening. The cost of health care would continue to climb, but the amount of pay we receive from our employers to pay for that healthcare would probably not be increased at the same rate. Just like with minimum wage and unemployment insurance -- neither of which come close to keeping up with cost of living, and are dictated by state law. And what of people who aren't employed whether by choice or not.

Taibi has absolutely zero expertise about health care. Taibi is just blowing smoke out his ass.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wait a minute. If you are against subsidizing private insurance companies
how could you possibly support HR3200?

It keeps insurance tied to employment, which is stupid.

It also spends an extra one trillion dollars on private insurance.


The Widen plan isn't anywhere as good as single payer, but it looks a lot better than HR3200 which has the "mini public option/health insurance give away in it.

I think Talibi and Wyden make more sense than you do.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. "The Widen plan isn't anywhere as good as single payer, but it looks a lot better than HR3200 "
Of course you do. If you can't have single payer, then the next best thing for you is private insurance giveaway.



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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. Now that's less than honest, ProSence.
I am opposed to the private insurance giveaway in both your favorite bill (HR3200) and to the private insurance giveaways in the Wyden bill. It appears you are not being forth coming about the insurance giveaways in HR3200 yet you condemn them in the Wyden bill? That seems hypocritical, to me.

It's the rest of both bills that I then have to compare. Since your bill HR3200 has a teensy tiny mini public option that does nothing to contain cost and lets almost no one enroll and it also keeps insurance tied to the work place, then at first glance and without having delved deeply into the Wyden bill, I'd have to go with it. I may change my mind when I know more, but I won't be changing my mind based on half truths and distortions.

It's fine for you to disagree, but it's wrong to dishonestly characterize my reasons for my opinions. And it's wrong to try to cover up the fact that the bill you favor has insurance give aways, just like the Wyden bill does.

Stick to the facts and cut back on the spin, and you will do yourself a favor.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. What a cop out
It's the rest of both bills that I then have to compare. Since your bill HR3200 has a teensy tiny mini public option that does nothing to contain cost and lets almost no one enroll and it also keeps insurance tied to the work place, then at first glance and without having delved deeply into the Wyden bill, I'd have to go with it. I may change my mind when I know more, but I won't be changing my mind based on half truths and distortions.


It's evident that you're just talking crap.

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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I figure honest crap beats dishonest crap any day.
I haven't read the Wyden bill yet.

Have you?
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. I have. He's my senator, and I have thought highly of him.
As far as I can tell, Wyden's bill is basically the same as 3200, but without even what you call a "mini public option".

Prior to this I had always thought highly of Ron Wyden. But I have not been able to get a straight answer from his office. His clear refusal to support any public option is not what I thought he stood for. Now I am in a position of seriously considering not just whether I want to see a primary challenger, but of how strongly I would want to support a primary challenger. The bill he put forward is wholly inadequate.
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BzaDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. The fact that he hasn't read Wyden doesn't change the fact that you haven't read HR3200.
Because if you did, you would know that HR3200 is almost entirely subsidizing private coverage, as the public option would have so many limitations that it would cover very few.
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Exactly right.
And that particular poster is well aware of that fact.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
17. roffle
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. Which bill is it that has the PITIFUL public option that would only include 10 million people by
***2019***(!)? Is that HR3200?

Does ANY bill include a REAL, robust public option?
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yes, it's HR3200 The Senate's HELP committee bill is even worse. No one enrolled ever!
According to the CBO.

There is to my knowledge no full on 130 million enrolled, Medicare rates reimbursing, drug company negotiating, easily accessible, Public Option Pool introduced.

So far it's smoke and mirrors. I feel so sorry for the people stuck promoting it because they are hanging out there naked. They are loyal Democrats and they are getting creamed by us policy Nazis demanding substance over blue sky.

Only the left has anything going. HR676 Medicare for all. Wyden has an interesting bill which at least gets insurance out of the job based realm. It's a private insurance give away like HR3200 is but its actually much cheaper and has some advantages over the mini public option.

Physicians for a National Health Program has some very good info on everything that's going on. If you google PNHP you can find them and their blog has lots of very well written stuff from experts all over the country. They are solidly single payer but they do honest analysis of what else is out there as well.
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Thanks John Q.!
Guess I was correct in my assumption that, except for HR676 it's all total fokkin' bullshit (or blue sky instead of substance, as you more politely put it!) :-(

HELP commitee bill has no one enrolled ever?! WTF? :banghead:
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-23-09 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Here is my favorite writer from PNHP. I met him in 1992 and his presentation on single payer was
amazing. His life's work has been to analyze and then explain health care systems to "lay" people, that is people who aren't experts in the field. That would be me.

Here are his current pieces that I know of. The second one I just stumbled on so it's new to me and i'm going to go read it. It's like finding a new Mark Twain short story or something!

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/20/bait-and-switch-how-the-%e2%80%9cpublic-option%e2%80%9d-was-sold/

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/07/28/does-the-congressional-progressive-caucus-care-about-its-public-option-principles/

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/08/08/reply-to-critics-of-%e2%80%9cbait-and-switch-how-the-%e2%80%98public-option%e2%80%99-was-sold%e2%80%9d/

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/08/14/the-senate-help-committee-%e2%80%9cpublic-option%e2%80%9d-will-be-multiple-%e2%80%9coptions%e2%80%9d-and-these-will-be-run-by-insurance-companies/

Happy Reading.
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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
5. Wyden's plan is better than anything I've seen so far
Edited on Sat Aug-22-09 05:51 PM by DrToast
But the unions are against it, so we have to dick around to accommodate them.

By the way, Wyden's plan isn't incompatible with a public option. If the Dems wanted to they could use the Wyden plan and also have a public option on the exchange.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. "By the way, Wyden's plan isn't incompatible with a public option."
Yet it doesn't include one. I wonder why?

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old guy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
6. The Lewin group??
'Nuff said.
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malletgirl02 Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
7. Tabbai
"Instead, all the noise is being made on the other side. Not so stupid after all – they at least, understand that politics is a fight that does not end with wearing of a T-shirt in November. "

I'm with you I had a problem with this sentence. What is he asking people to do? It doesn't make any since. It seems to me its some sort of veiled insult to Democratic voters.
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Phoebe Loosinhouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I think he is saying too many Dems think their work was done after the votes were in.
Now we're complacent with our majorities in the House, the Senate and the Presidency and we think we don't have to do anything active anymore, that it will all just happen magically without our further involvement. There should have been just as many if not more placards about single payer and public option in a positive sense at every single TownHall. If there had been, then they wouldn't have owned all that airtime.

I think that there is something about being in a minority party position that is actually energizing and the opposite effect when you are majority party.
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S_E_Fudd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Precisely the reason we are going to lose the Virginia State House...
Dems just aren't stepping up to the plate
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Minorities have passion. Also, no body I know is excited about the public option. It's 2nd choice
for everyone to single payer.

We turned out 200 people in Missoula (and people at 5 offices around the state) at a lunch hour on a Friday to protest Max arresting single payer advocates at the Senate Hearings, but the next days OFA meeting only got about 40 people.

And about 3/4 of them were strongly in favor of single payer and wondered why we were being hushed op on that and directed toward the public option by the organizers. Every single public option advocate I know says, that they'd really prefer a single payer system, but since that's not on the table they are going to settle for #2.

Taking single payer off the table had a chilling effect on the progressive health care movement.

I mean who can get excited about being forced to purchase private insurance and giving the private insurance companies a trillion public tax dollars a decade?

And with the public option shrunk down to it's mini size and not allowing people to join, who can stand up and cheer about that? I can't.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Wait, Baucus is your Senator? No wonder you're upset.
no body I know is excited about the public option. It's 2nd choice for everyone to single payer.


A lot of what you say just doesn't add up: a state represented by Max Baucus that went for McCain is really for single payer?

This seems more realistic:

Just forty-two percent of Montanans approve of the job he is doing, and 47 percent support a public option (compared to 43 percent who oppose one).




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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yeah, I saw that yesterday.
I doubt the poll asked about single payer. Do you know if it did? Did you read the Wyden bill?

Want to know something even stranger? Baucus won in November with over 70% of the vote. I didn't vote in the Senate race, because I swore an oath after Baucus crossed the aisle to pass the Medicare part D that i was done with him. Check it out if you think maybe I'm spinning that 70% or maybe you think other people stretch the truth, you know, if you think everyone does it. So go google it and check it out.

I'm sure you think you know quite a bit about Montana politics, since you read a poll in Daily Kos and all, but i assure you there's been a long effort to educate and to demand single payer in our state. You probably didn't know that Montana invented social security and you probably didn't know that we elected the first woman to serve in congress, but yes we did. Jeanette Rankin was her name and she was the only person to vote against US entry into both world wars. In her speech on the floor of the house on the eve of US entry into WWII she said, "I can not vote for war." We also kicked Hillary's ass in the Primary giving a solid victory to Obama. one reason was that we wanted someone who was going to include all voices in the debate. We are a little disappointed that Obama turned out to be so exclusionary in that regard.

Here's a bunch of links to a bunch of stuff all across the state having to do with single payer. Your Kos polling article that didn't ask about single payer not withstanding, I think you will be surprised if you actually check out some of the links.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3679933
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=114&topic_id=65357
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3911339
http://www.nesri.org/programs/MontanaCampaign.html
http://www.correntewire.com/miles_city_montana_wants_medicare_all_will_baucus_listen
http://www.missoula.com/news/node/2456
http://www.kpax.com/Global/story.asp?S=10789043&nav=LpDi
http://www.billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_14439a38-a618-54a8-8e50-9e5fb9165fc5.html
http://issuu.com/missoulanews/docs/i_27_7-2-9_/12?mode=a_p
http://montanansforsinglepayer.org/
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Max suggested lowering Medicare to 55 until exchanges, not long ago, can we push him to that?
Bernie S says maybe 10 Senators for Single Payer, which can be disruptive in this country now, but Medicare has a special, proven cache.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I don't know. I hadn't heard that. Do you have a link because I would be interested in that.
I'm hoping the Repos realize they can really mess with the Dem leadership and Dems in the Senate and they vote to pass single payer in the house (HR676 is coming up for a full floor debate and vote this year) along with the progressive caucus, and then they force Dem senators to vote against single payer. They can then point out how the Dems are owned by the health care industrial complex. The Dems are getting a lot more money than the Repos are now, since they control things.


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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Really shpuld keep links, but November and maybe Spring rings bell. Search that way?
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camera obscura Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-22-09 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
19. Taibbi is a hack. Always has been.
He loves attention, and he loves writing about how much people in power really really suck. That's about it. He's not politically progressive, in any sense - his sexism against women who dare to disagree with him politically is well documented (and this is coming from someone who obviously has no love for Malkin and Coulter) and after Holder's comments on race in America, he sat there snickering that the Attorney General must have been taking bong hits, mocking him for not properly appreciating the lengths that white people had gone through to desegregate the nation - nevermind that Holder had mentioned those accomplishments. That would disrupt from his fratboy snickering on MSNBC with Mike Barnacle.

In fact, I can't recall ever actually seeing Taibbi write a piece that actually dealt with policy and numbers. Instead it's "congress is corrupt", "Goldman Sachs is engineering our economic crisis", "Republicans are stupid", etc. He touts the requisite numbers and talking points and never really breaks new ground. So I'm not really surprised that he'd throw Wyden in among Sanders and Kucinich, as he probably is just reeling off a list of names he's heard listed in connection with alternate plans. Why bother learning what they stand for? That's more time he could spend bitching about those dumb sheeple who don't understand how much Obama totally sux.

And his much vaunted talent for vitriol is lacking too. The wan "manicure for a gunshot victim" is the most clever piece of wordly work in this piece. I've seen more creative ire on wingnut blogs, and that's just sad.
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