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Obama will be considered a greater President than LBJ, and has the potential to rival FDR.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 04:47 PM
Original message
Obama will be considered a greater President than LBJ, and has the potential to rival FDR.
LBJ had a 66 and 68 Democratic majority to work with. Could you imagine if Obama had 68 Dems in the Senate? LBJ also spent nearly 15 years in the Senate and had a lot more sway with the Democratic majority, and having a super majority was a huge plus. Still, with a huge headstart on health care. he couldn't get universal health care passed.

<...>

By mid-1951 the AMA was openly claiming victory, and President Truman acknowledged as much when he omitted the proposal from his 1952 state of the Union message. Instead, he announced the establishment of a Commission on the Health Needs of the Nation to study the problem. In the presidential election that year, the Democratic candidate, Adlai E. Stevenson (who replaced the retiring President as the party's standard bearer, skirted the issue of Government health insurance. On the other hand, the winner, Dwight D. Eisenhower, voiced strong opposition to the proposal, ensuring that the new administration would not soon revive it.

In sum, the Wagner-Murray-Dingell bill was the victim of a cautious Congress, massive resistance by a prestigious and vitally affected interest group, sympathy for the AMA's position from an imposing array of nonmedical groups, a lack of wholehearted support from some of the key proponents, considerable antipathy from the press, the rapid growth of private insurance, and, finally, of a hostile political climate. (12)

Years later, President Truman wrote: "I have had some bitter disappointments as President, but the one that has troubled me most, in a personal way, has been the failure to defeat the organized opposition to a National compulsory health insurance program. But this opposition has only delayed and cannot stop the adoption of an indispensable Federal health insurance plan."

link


Chapter 4: The Fourth Round-1957 to 1965

PRESIDENT TRUMAN was right, of course. In fact, some of the spadework for what would ultimately come to be known as Medicare was done in the final 3 years of the Truman administration.

<...>

When the King-Anderson bill was submitted anew to the 89th Congress, in January 1965, it was accorded the honor of being the first bill introduced in each chamber (H.R. 1 and S. 1). Immediately afterward, Chairman Mills took charge of re-drafting the bill into its final form. During the next 2 months, the chairman was the focus of a many-sided negotiation process between the various interests that would be responsible for administering the Medicare program, or who had some stake in its operation--physicians, nurses, hospital administrators, nursing home representatives, State health and welfare officials, labor leaders, insurance industry representatives, Federal officials, and many others. Inevitably, there were conflicts over technical matters, some of which had important economic, social, and political implications ; but never during these months was the basic policy decision in doubt, despite last-ditch resistance by organized medicine and some of its allies.

Just after the election, in fact, the AMA held a high level strategy meeting at its Chicago headquarters, at which it was decided to fight on to the very end. Another publicity campaign was mapped. Then, in early January, AMA leaders announced they would support an alternative to Medicare based on the principle of the original Taft-Smith-Ball bill and its many successors--that is, a program operated through private insurance carriers (and the States), with premiums for the low-income elderly subsidized out of Federal and State revenues. "Eldercare," as the AMA's proposal was called, was promptly introduced by two Ways and Means Committee members, A. S. Herlong, Jr., of Florida and Thomas B. Curtis of Missouri (H.R. 3727 and H.R. 3728), and given wide publicity. But ironically, advertising claims that the proposal could provide more comprehensive benefits than Medicare only served to goad the Ways and Means Committee into expanding the scope of the Medicare bill. (36)

Finally, on March 23,1965, the Ways and Means Committee voted 17-8 to substitute a drastically revised committee bill for King-Anderson. (The committee bill, 296 pages long, had 102 separate sections.) The next day, Chairman Mills introduced this "Mills bill" (H.R. 6675) on the House floor, and on April 8, after 1 day of floor debate, the Mills bill passed--without amendment-by 313-l15. (37) It was all very anti-climatic--indeed, almost perfunctory. By mid-1965 public attention had shifted to other issues--the growing racial crisis, the war on poverty and the war in Vietnam. Nonetheless, approval of Medicare by the House of Representatives was a momentous occasion, and President Johnson paused briefly to hail it: "This is a landmark day in the historic evolution of our social security system."

The Mills bill then went to the Senate, where the Finance Committee held hearings in late April and early May, followed by extended executive sessions. The bill was finally reported out--with 75 committee amendments--on June 24 (by a vote of 12-5). During 3 days of debate on the Senate floor, some 250 additional amendments were considered. (38)

<...>


Obama's Presidency

In progress: Obama unveils biggest regulatory overhaul since 1930s

"Barack Obama has created the best opportunity to enact universal health care with a public option "

President Obama’s new budget represents a huge break, not just with the policies of the past eight years, but with policy trends over the past 30 years.

Done: CREW AND OBAMA ADMINISTRATION REACH HISTORIC LEGAL SETTLEMENT...(will also release Bush-era records)


<...>

I think many of his accomplishments are being conveniently overlooked or forgotten. I would like to outline a few, and give credit to Sam Stein at Huffington Post and the American Justice blog, as well as others I have linked to in subsequent portions of this post.

On the environment:

  • Included funding for "green" jobs in the stimulus bill
  • Initiated first steps to develop a legally-binding treaty to reduce mercury emissions worldwide
  • Dedicated more than $60 billion for clean energy
  • Instituted "cash for clunkers," getting more fuel efficient cars on the street
  • Acknowledges reality of climate change and his desire to work on an international policy like Kyoto
  • Emphasized the value of science (not political opinion) within the EPA
  • Allocated $2 billion in stimulus cash for advanced batteries systems (for automobiles)
  • Declared (via EPA) carbon dioxide a threat to health, the first step towards regulating greenhouse gases under the Clean Air Act
  • Funded Energy Efficiency and Conservation Block Grant, which gives $2.8 billion to cities
  • Put over 2 million acres of wilderness, thousands of miles of river and a host of national trails and parks under federal protection, the largest conservation effort in 15 years
  • Funding a $475 million initiative to restore and clean the Great Lakes
On healthcare:

  • Overturned the federal funding ban for stem cell research
  • Instituted better standards for comparative research in medicine and an agency to handle this
  • Added staff to the FDA and brought back emphasis on science
  • Allocated over $1 billion to the National Institutes of Health, whose budget Bush let stagnate
  • Eliminated funding for abstinence-only education
  • Signed an executive order repealing the "Mexico City policy" or "global gag rule" that withheld U.S. funds from organizations that discuss or provide family planning services abroad
  • Announced US would resume contributions to the UN population fund for family planning and more than double the previous contribution made in 2001
  • Appropriated $19 billion in the stimulus package to help implement an electronic medical record system
  • Set aside billions in budget to overhaul the health care system
  • Enacted Children's Health Insurance Program Reauthorization, providing healthcare to 11 million children
  • Established 65% COBRA subsidy for 7 million unemployed Americans
  • Allocated $1 billion for prevention and wellness programs
  • Provided $87 billion to states to bolster their Medicaid programs during the downturn
  • Increased funding for urban HIV/AIDS Prevention and Awareness
On Education, Equality, Public Safety, Families, etc.:

  • Expressed a desire to overturn Don't Ask Don't Tell
  • Described the Defense of Marriage Act as "unfair" and "discriminatory" and said they supported it being overturned
  • Includes atheists in his definition of Americans
  • Extended tax credits for mothers to return to college, for tuition, and for college textbook purchases
  • Has agreed to make the visitors' lists to the White House public
  • Signed executive order requiring Guantanamo to be closed within 1 year and allocated funds/personnel for that purpose
  • Included provision in stimulus legislation that, for the first time, supported the ideas of Net Neutrality-like non-discrimination and openness for the Internet
  • The administration demonstrated a new commitment to fighting for change on the UN Human Rights Council by announcing it will run for a seat next year, reversing the Bush administration boycott
  • Announced that the U.S. will support a United Nations declaration urging nations to decriminalize homosexuality
  • Created office of Urban Policy
  • Gave Department of Justice $2 billion for Byrne Grants, which funds anti-gang and anti-gun task forces (cut during Bush years)
  • Allocated $5 billion for early learning programs, including Head Start, Early Head Start, child care, and programs for children with special needs
  • Signed the Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure (CARD) Act to protect Americans from unfair and deceptive credit card practices
  • Enacted the Making Homes Affordable Program
  • Boosted credit flow to small businesses
  • Increased focus on funding for high speed rail
  • Funded the Community Oriented Police program (COPS)
  • Appointed first Hispanic justice to the Supreme Court and most qualified Supreme Court candidate in decades
On foreign affairs (see link for more complete list):

  • Secured $5 billion in aid commitments "to bolster economy and help it fight terror and Islamic radicalism"
  • Foreign affairs experts insist that Obama's engagement with the Muslim world has been at once remarkable and under-appreciated..."He has been able to dramatically change America's image in that region"
  • Led global response to the economic crisis through the G20, obtaining commitments of $1.1 trillion to safeguard the world’s most vulnerable economies
  • Established major agenda to protect Americans from spread/use of deadly weapons, negotiating new nuclear weapon cuts with Russia and committing to the elimination of nuclear weapons
  • Signed an executive order banning torture and requiring interrogations to conform to Army Field Manual Standards and Geneva Conventions
  • Signed an executive order to close CIA secret prisons
  • Cut ineffective, unnecessary and outdated weapons programs such as the F-22, the DDG -1000 destroyer, and Future Combat Systems
  • Vowed to bring the costs of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq into the regular budget by 2010
  • Largest increase for veterans funding in 30 years
  • Restored the UN Ambassador to a cabinet level position
  • Signed Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act to stop fraud and wasteful spending in defense procurement and contracting
  • Helped free 2 American journalists from a North Korea prison
  • Led the UN Security Council in voting for strong sanctions against North Korea
  • Negotiated with Russia to allow overflights over their territory to establish a supply route into Northern Afghanistan
On workers:

  • OSHA announced it was moving to protect workers from...popcorn long; last-minute Bush rules would have added 2 years before it could be considered
  • Revoked Bush administration executive order on regulatory review that enabled political appointees at the White House's OMB to override agencies' rulemaking, undermining everything from worker safety to environmental protection
  • Signed 3 executive orders, including one reversing a Bush order to limit union representation on federal contracts
  • Moved to prevent federal contractors from being reimbursed for unionbusting propganda compaigns during collective bargaining
  • Signed executive order overturning Bush administration's ban on project labor agreements (PLAs) on federally funded construction (PLAs set wages and establish work rules and methods of settling grievances on large multi-contractor construction projects)
  • Signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act, guaranteeing the right to sue for wage discrimination based on gender, race, disability, etc.
  • Extended unemployment benefits for struggling Americans
  • Obama's Department of Transportation has approved 2,500 highway projects
  • Cut taxes for 95% of all working families
  • Provided over $500 million in funding for vocational rehabilitation services to help with job training, education and placement
more



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PM Martin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Not many are declaring Obama a failure.
It is that he is not doing enough on the largest matters such as regulation and healthcare.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. they're just doing it over and over again really loudly
.
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Bookmarked. Imagine what his lists will have become after one and then two Full Terms!
Recommended.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for putting all this together..
ProSense. It's a good thing we have a strong admin to withstand all the current enemies to progress.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. "Expressed a desire to overturn Don't Ask Don't Tell"
lol
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #4
36. Did Bush ever do the same? Clinton?
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verges Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
70. Clinton put it in place. nt
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #70
86. I know. My point was Obama merely saying he wants it overturned
is a hell of a lot more than what past presidents have done. The poster I was responding to thinks that's funny for some reason.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #86
107. it's fucking hysterical
in a sad, homophobic, pathetic way - that it was included on a list of "accomplishments."

Reversing the ban on stem cell research was an "accomplishment." Obama deserves enormous credit for doing it and doing it quickly.

Merely expressing a desire to end the horror known as DADT is just that: words. He hasn't sent a bill down to be introduced. He hasn't used stop loss powers. He hasn't even endorsed the legislation that's been introduced on the Hill. When he does any of that and then signs the repeal, THEN it will be an accomplishment.

And to say that mere words are better than Bush or Clinton is offensive in and of itself. It shows what an incredibly low bar some so called liberals at DU are comfortable (or even happy) with when it comes to equal rights for gay people.
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #107
112. I think Confucius said
the journey of 1,000 miles starts with one step. Saying he hasn't done anything significant for the gay community doesn't mean he never will. It's been 8 months. Give the man time. Expressing a desire to overturn DADT is a hell of a lot better than doing nothing at all or enacting the policy!
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. Obama Pressured Congress NOT to Work on DADT.
His record on gay equality is abysmal, and he's a liar and a coward, to boot. Gays were actually better off federally under Bush than we are under Obama, thanks to his DOJ's excellent defense of DOMA. His "expressing a desire to overturn DADT" is exactly the same as a member of the KKK expressing a desire to see blacks marry whites.
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #117
129. Now you're comparing our president to Bush and the KKK?
Hahaha. Fuck it. I'm done with you people. I'll leave you to wallow in your pathetic miserable existence.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. Um...No. I Said He Was WORSE Than Bush When It Comes to Gay Equality.
Pay attention.
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liquid diamond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. I remember you. We got into it on this issue a few months ago.
You were unhinged with all your profanity and exclamation points. Your last statement makes perfect sense now. It's a shame you're a birds fan. I'll leave you to simmer in your hate.
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #131
133. Not Even a Half-Hearted Defense For Your President's Shitty Equality Policy?
Typical Obamabot: all bluster, no facts.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. It's only 8 months of a 4 year term
I think it's a little premature to speculate one way or the other.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. So people can declare him a failure and not up to LBJ standards after only eight months, but
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 05:01 PM by ProSense
the facts should be ignored?



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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I didn't say that.
I said that it's too early to lay down a final judgment EITHER way.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. It wasn't a final judgment
LBJ's record wasn't that awesome, he picked up the ball on many things and achieved moderate success on some. Obama, I believe, has already passed LBJ's marker. He has the potential to rival FDR.

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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
24. Already passed LBJ? Like LBJ helping get Civil Rights Act,Voting Rights Act thru Congress? Medicare?
Obama has the opportunity and potential, but has not surpassed LBJ's legislative achievements. He's got quite a ways to go. And generally I'm not a huge fan of LBJ's due to the war.

As for a Dem Senate majority, the Dems had it at that time but not all Dems voted for these landmark bills: 46 voted for Civil Rights Act, 49 for Voting Rights Act, 57 for Medicare. It wasn't exactly a cakewalk to get this legislation into law at that time.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Like I said,
LBJ picked up the ball on most of these all the groundwork was already laid.

He failed miserably on Vietnam.

Obama has passed the marker on his legislative agenda while having to undo the damage of the Bush adminstration.



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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #27
74. Passed the legislative marker of LBJ within 8 months? Do you have examples of enacted legislation
sponsored by this President that surpass historic legislation such as the civil rights, voting acts & medicare?

Seriously, that's a huge pinnacle to assert for just 8 months into a Presidency. I can think of ARRA, but what will be its actual impact, short and long term. It's such a hodgepodge of bits, there's some good stuff in there as well as the giveaways (of funds) but hard to currently regard it at the same level as major lifechanging legislation of the past such as Social Security, etc. Two specific pieces of legislation I can identify in your OP are important but reinstate & extend what was previously existing law and passed the new Congress without much struggle. Climate change bill is still in Congress. Health care bill still in Congress and that could be a landmark, depending on the outcome. It's just as much early days to declare Obama's Presidency a "failure" as some have as it is to declare it's "surpassed" LBJ or "rivaling" FDR, if you're talking legislation.

And "groundwork" is usually "already laid" for most progressive legislation in that it has a history of failures before it actually passes. Just because a history of previous attempts to pass legislation is there, doesn't mean that the votes are there as the history of these bills show. And LBJ wasn't just sitting in the WH waiting to see what the Congress would pass, he actively worked the Congress.

So let's say Obama actually gets a genuine landmark healthcare bill through the Congress. (Which remains to be seen and that's not intended as a criticism, just that nothing's certain at this point.) Would you dismiss such an accomplishment because the "groundwork" was already laid by others?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #74
77. The groundwork was laid by Presidents in administrations directly preceding LBJ
The same members of Congress were involved for several years before LBJ picked up the ball.

Also, the marker is the equivalent time frame in both administrations.

In eight months, Obama's stimulus and other legislation were passed and signed into law:

Cash for Clunkers Extension
Signed: Thursday, August 6, 2009

Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act
Signed: Monday, June 22, 2009

Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure (CARD) Act of 2009
Signed: Friday, May 22, 2009

Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act
Signed: Friday, May 22, 2009

Helping Families Save Their Homes Act
Signed: Wednesday, May 20, 2009

Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act
Signed: Wednesday, May 20, 2009

Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act
Signed: Wednesday, April 21, 2009

Omnibus Public Lands Management Act
Signed: Monday, March 30, 2009

Small Business Act Temporary Extension
Signed: Friday, March 20, 2009

American Recovery and Reinvestment Act
Signed: Tuesday, February 17, 2009

DTV Delay Act
Signed: Wednesday, February 11, 2009

Children’s Health Insurance Reauthorization Act
Signed: Wednesday, February 4, 2009

Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
Signed: Thursday, January 29, 2009

There are also a host of foreign policy achievements.

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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #77
84. DTV Delay Act? You're counting that as a significant Presidential legislative achievement?
The marker is not landmark legislation but the rather time frame in which legislation passes? Well then FDR was just a slacker...he was in office over two years before the Social Security Act passed. The Social Security Act simply can't compete with the swiftness with which the DTV Delay Act was enacted.

And since, according to you, legislation that had been introduced in previous sessions of Congress don't count as achievements for Presidents who happen to be sitting when it subsequently passes and is enacted, you should throw out from your list Lily Ledbetter, CHIP, the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act, The Credit Card Accountability Responsibility and Disclosure Act, The Omnibus Public Land Management Act.

As I said Obama has potential, but it's not appropriate, fair or correct to blithely dismiss previous Presidents' major legislative achievements in an attempt to boost Obama'a standing after 8 months in office.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 08:12 AM
Response to Reply #84
98. That's simply the full list. "As I said Obama has potential, "
He has potential to rival FDR. I believe he will be seen as a greater President than LBJ.

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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. According to you they should be....
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. Obama will considered a bigger genius than Einstien and less un-mess aroundable with than Jim!
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kath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. BWAH!
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Four out of five dentists surveyed recommend Obama. n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Did you come up with that all by yourself? n/t
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. More like Jimmy Carter at this point in time- though one can hope
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. You remind me of the RW
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 05:40 PM by ProSense
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
40. The Democrats have 60 votes in the Senate and an overwhelming majority in the house
They control their own fates- much as they did during the Carter administration, so they can't blame republicans for their failures.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
69. Health care failed?
Obama got his stimulus and other legislation passed:

Cash for Clunkers Extension
Signed: Thursday, August 6, 2009

Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act
Signed: Monday, June 22, 2009

Credit Card Accountability, Responsibility, and Disclosure (CARD) Act of 2009
Signed: Friday, May 22, 2009

Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act
Signed: Friday, May 22, 2009

Helping Families Save Their Homes Act
Signed: Wednesday, May 20, 2009

Fraud Enforcement and Recovery Act
Signed: Wednesday, May 20, 2009

Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act
Signed: Wednesday, April 21, 2009

Omnibus Public Lands Management Act
Signed: Monday, March 30, 2009

Small Business Act Temporary Extension
Signed: Friday, March 20, 2009

American Recovery and Reinvestment Act
Signed: Tuesday, February 17, 2009

DTV Delay Act
Signed: Wednesday, February 11, 2009

Children’s Health Insurance Reauthorization Act
Signed: Wednesday, February 4, 2009

Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act
Signed: Thursday, January 29, 2009


What failures?






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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. You're as out of touch with reality as the right wing is....
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 10:27 PM by depakid
As to health care, we will see. Maybe you'll get some costly, watered down version of the public option around 2013- or maybe not.

I'd put the odds on that around 50/50 at this point.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. "As to health care, we will see." Speaking of being "out of touch with reality," what failures? n/t
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Do you really want me to list them?
It's pretty negative stuff- and it would surely bust your delusions of Obama as the second coming of LBJ or LOL -FDR.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. All talk. n/t
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jesus_of_suburbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. Really?
:shrug:


*bookmarked*
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ChimpersMcSmirkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. PS, you're an oasis in the DU desert of fail.
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msallied Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. Seconded.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
103. I LOVE the metaphors people come up with here. I'm going to shameless copy that one! nt
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
17. but how does he compare to sliced bread?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Why is sliced bread your hero? n/t
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 06:09 PM by ProSense
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. the comparision to Johnson's majority is a bit specious
Of those 68, 22 were Southern Democrats nearly all of whom opposed any progressive measures of any kind. Thus he had maybe 50. He did have a more reasonable GOP to work with so that got some back but not enough to get over 60. Also filibusters were more powerful back then than they are now.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. "Specious"? You can't be serious?
Of those 68, 22 were Southern Democrats nearly all of whom opposed any progressive measures of any kind. Thus he had maybe 50.


LBJ was one of those Southern Democrats in the Senate for 15 years. Like I said he had more sway with them.





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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. unless he had photos of them engaging in illegal activity he had no real power over them
He wasn't a hypnotist. He eventually got 57 Democratic votes out of the 68 total in the Senate. Thus he got 11 of the 22 southerners to vote for it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Oh please, that's lame
Do the math and compare your so-called "50" to what Obama is working with in trying to implement a progressive agenda.

Lincoln, Landrieu, Lieberman, Baucus, Conrad, Carper, Nelson, Nelson and the list goes on. I doubt there are 25 reliable Democrats in the Senate.

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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Crack open a history book
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 07:59 PM by dsc
you know those things with bindings. Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina all had two 'Democrats' in the Senate. So did Arkansas, Tennessee and Oklahoma. It is nothing short of ridiculous to compare the likes of Hagan, Landreau, Nelson, and Warner to people like Eastland, Russel, Stennis and others of that ilk. Yes there were some decent ones Fullbright and Gore come to mind but most of the rest make Nelson look like Sanders.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Crack open your mind.
Opposition is opposition. If someone votes against a bill because they're racist or votes against it because they're conservative, moderate or self-serving, the result is the same: a no vote.

You are trying to compare people across two different periods in history. Their views will differ, but opposition is still opposition.

The fact is Nelson doesn't look like Sanders, he looks more like the opposition.

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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. Only 1 Southern Dem Senator voted for 1964 Civil Rights Act; 3 for 1965 Voting Rights Act..
Doesn't look like LBJ owned the Southern Dem vote in the Senate.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Like I said, LBJ picked up the ball. He basically shepherded through a bill whose time had come
In the Senate, 27 Republicans voted for the bill, and 136 Republicans in the House.

Medicare garnered 13 and 70 Republican votes in the Senate and House, respectively.

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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
79. First you said passage of progressive leg easy since LBJ had Dem majority and sway over
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 11:02 PM by Garbo 2004
Southern Dem votes, which was not the case as demonstrated on civil rights legislation.

Now you cite Republican votes as if those votes were simply a given and it didn't matter who was President. That's also not the case.

For example, Goldwater was against Medicare. Think Medicare would have been "shepherded" through Congress and become law in 1965 if Goldwater had been elected in 1964?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. What does Goldwater being against Medicare have to do with the Republicans who voted for it?
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 11:20 PM by ProSense
Several Southern Dems voted for Medicare and quite a few Republicans.

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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #81
88. You think Medicare would have passed with Goldwater as President?
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 03:05 AM by Garbo 2004
Johnson after his election in '64 was able to successfully get Dems who had previously opposed and blocked Medicare into supporting it, like for example Wilbur Mills, Chairman of Ways and Means. (Mills previously had not been a supporter of Medicare and was able to block it in the House.) Goldwater certainly wouldn't have pressured and worked on Dems in Congress to support Medicare as Johnson did. If Johnson hadn't been elected, no Presidential support and pressure to pass Medicare and no Medicare passing Congress. You appear to suggest that the final votes to pass Medicare, Dem and Republican, just happened independently on their own and the bill would have sailed through Congress regardless who was President. That's just not the case.

And if Presidents have no significant influence on Congressional votes on legislation, as you appear to suggest here since to you Johnson only "shepherded" it through Congress rather than being instrumental in its passing, then you should stop giving credit to Obama for any legislation enacted during his presidency.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #88
102. What does that have to do with anything?
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 08:59 AM by ProSense
A lot of legislation passed under Democratic Presidents aren't given consideration when a Republican is in the WH. That's not unusual, Congress just simply doesn't take up the measures. That has nothing to do with the number of Republicans who will vote for it once the bill is on the floor. A good example of this is SCHIP.

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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #102
134. What it has to do with is that Johnson was instrumental in getting Medicare passed.
He actively got critical votes and support for Medicare that weren't there before. Without his efforts, Medicare would not have been enacted. An accomplishment that you for some reason diminish.

These landmark bills such as civil rights, medicare didn't just happen, flowing through the Congress without significant opposition. Johnson strategized, wrangled, cajoled to get votes and support, Dem and Repub. These weren't simply ideas "whose time has come" and passage of this legislation was a given outcome. Neither did they sail almost effortlessly through Congress as a tribute to Kennedy.

There's simply no need to diminish such accomplishments. Real effective progressive legislative change wasn't easy then, it isn't easy now.

If Obama manages to get through Congress similar landmark legislation in the area of health care, for example, can you imagine someone in the future glibly dismissing it saying, well it was an idea whose time had come, he picked up the health care banner from the previous Dem President, he had a Dem Congress and popular support from the majority of citizens for it. Not that big an accomplishment.

But it would be. Such change is never easy. As Obama himself has noted repeatedly. True 40+ years ago and true now.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #134
140. "Such change is never easy. As Obama himself has noted repeatedly. True 40+ years ago and true now."
Is that why LBJ was unable to pass national health care? Obama is on the verge of doing just that, and people seem to want to minimize the task of doing so.

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Hieronymus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. Not unless he grows a set by Wednesday.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. A set of what?

Boo!

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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
26. He has the potential to rival Grant, but it will be close.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. The brilliance of the naysayers is on display here:
idiotic one-liners.
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I direct you to your subject line.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. You have no point, do you?
Nothing to refute the facts in the OP. Got anything rational to add?

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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. The point is obvious.
Build and expand medicare, which previous Democratic administrations established.

These series of misdirections are neither policy nor legislation.

As to his foreign policy, there he may well exceed Johnson.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. "As to his foreign policy, there he may well exceed Johnson."
He'll exceed him in other areas too.


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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. No, Afghanistan will be his high water mark, as Vietnam was his.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Changed your mind? Afghanistan will be Vietnam?
Absurd.

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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Didn't change it at all. His use of military force in foreign affairs is already broader than LBJ's.
These one word messages are so unlike you.

Let's have some grey tinted cut-n-paste.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. What? Beyond ludicrous.
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 09:10 PM by ProSense
The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which gave the President the exclusive right to use military force without consulting the Senate, was based on a false pretext, as Johnson later admitted.<44> It was Johnson who began America's direct involvement in the ground war in Vietnam. By 1968, over 550,000 American soldiers were inside Vietnam; in 1967 and 1968 they were being killed at the rate of over 1,000 a month.<45>
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. Johnson had only one undeclared war; Obama has two.
Tonkin Resolution, IWR, Afghan surge are all based on false pretexts.

Keep cheering.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. That makes no sense. n/t
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rug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #67
92. Yes, senseless wars awful, aren't they.
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Chef Eric Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #28
58. Right, ProSense. We're all a bunch of fools...
because we'd like to see a good health care bill passed BEFORE we pass judgment.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Hey, if you want to consider yourself a naysayer
accept the criticism.

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Chef Eric Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Unfortunately, not all of us can see into the future like you can.

And because we cannot see into the future, we are not ready to declare Obama a great President just yet.

You can give us a little more time, can't you, ProSense? Please? I just don't think any of us could bear it if you weren't more patient with us.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Stop pleading. My point stands.
Obama will be considered a great president, moreso than LBJ. He has the potential to be as great a President as FDR.

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Chef Eric Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. That is not a point. It is a prediction. And I'll be happy if you're right. nt
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
29. Its a bit too soon for such a grand sweeping statement.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. It's a simple statement with a lot of facts to back it up.
Not everyone believes LBJ was such a great President. As for FDR, saying Obama has potential to rival his legacy is simply an observation.





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BlueIdaho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
30. I say we may be the chickenshits...
Me included. Are we really ready to walk away from a Democratic president a few months into his first term? Do we really believe the bullshit and hype from the M$M? Are we really going to sit out the fight of our lives, a fight for the heart and soul of this nation because the teabaggers tell us to? Really? Seriously?

Thanks for the post. His record - written while Amercia stood on the edge of economic disaster ain't a bad start.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #30
37. Seriously,
they have nothing to add. What were LBJ's foreign policy accomplishments?

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CocoaBeachCoco Donating Member (117 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
41. Every President has the "potential" to rival FDR, though!
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
43. FDR wasn't a corporate sell out & he fought for the people - NOTHING like Obama

What a complete insult to the memory of FDR
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CocoaBeachCoco Donating Member (117 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. New here but if it's bad, 'Obama has only been in office 7 months'...
when it's good, he's the new FDR. Confusing!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. You knew him personally? n/t
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
51. No, he won't. be. He is nowhere close to LBJ or Clinton right now.
He's down in Jimmy Carter territory right now, pretty much tied for worst Democratic president since the late 1800s.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Clinton?
:rofl:


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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Yes, Clinton, one of the most successful Democratic presidents in history.
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 08:53 PM by TexasObserver
If Obama turns out to be as successful as Clinton, we'll be lucky.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Obama is about to pass health care reform, something Clinton couldn't do.
Obama is also charged with reversing DADT, DOMA, renegotiation NATFA, re-regulating the financial industry, all part of Clinton's legacy.

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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Reform is just a word if it doesn't really mean reform.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Reform doesn't mean reform?
Good point.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #62
91. I know. It's over your head.
Congratulations on another pointless, self indulgent thread about nothing except your saying repeatedly "but I'm right!"

Read something. Learn some history. Stop thinking everyone else is as clueless about history and politics as you.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #91
96. "Reform doesn't mean reform" is moronic. That you actually think that makes sense
is an indication that you have nothing to argue. Start by reading the OP and refuting the points. You can't so you resort to silly retorts.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #60
150. yes, but Clinton did NOTHING on health care reform. n/t
n/t
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:14 PM
Response to Original message
61. Obviously some people are afraid of facts.
:rofl:

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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
63. Never, re: FDR.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #63
82. Interesting argument. What's ironic is that people are all too ready to
Edited on Sun Sep-06-09 11:37 PM by ProSense
acknowledge that we're facing the worse economic crisis since the Great Depression. The President's critics pounce on the jobs picture to make the most dire case. Obama is in a position to change the economic landscape, not just reverse the situation. From the energy/environment to health care to ending war, Obama could usher in a whole new era.

Never say never.




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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #82
97. Well, let's start with 4 terms vs. max. 2, TBD.
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 08:06 AM by WinkyDink
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Jakes Progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
66. First we can't hole Obama accountable
because he's only been in office for six months. Then in only six months he's the greatest president of all time. We don't let logic stand in our way. We have it both ways.

I'll give you this. He is far and away the greatest president of this century.
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last_texas_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #66
94. I agree
It seems like many of the same folks on here who regularly tell us no strong criticism or judgment should be issued regarding Obama b/c he's only been in office for "x" number of weeks, months, etc., have no problem with these sort of pronouncements if they are positive.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
75. Excellent post!
:yourock:
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akbacchus_BC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-06-09 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
80. Prosense, that was a long read but as you know, a lot of so called
Dems are not even for Obama's health care. My question is, why the fuck they are in the Democratic party if they don't want change. God forbid, 46 million Americans are without health care and Dems are ok with that? Am confused!
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Umbral Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
83. I was watching a show with Michio Kaku, talking about String Theory and Higher Dimensions
A Universe may actually exist where all your fantasies about Obama are stone-cold fact. The audacity of hope... Indeed!
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 01:03 AM
Response to Original message
85. Obama's already better than LBJ.
And FDR wouldn't last five minutes in this environment.
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #85
89. you've lost your freaking mind
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last_texas_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #85
100. Good stuff, man, good stuff...
:rofl:
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #85
123. No kidding, absolutely. Lincoln couldn't have gotten close in this
environment. Heck, Jefferson would never had made it. He had a weak voice.

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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
87. Ultimately it's about health care and little else
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 01:58 AM by fujiyama
and at least he realizes it.

The question is, do Senate Democrats? And I think they're clueless and beholden to the big insurance, which has only got more and more powerful since Johnson's time.

Johnson had a lot of advantages Obama doesn't have and had some remaining sympathy to implement Kennedy's legacy. And I hate to say this, but I think he was a tougher negotiator with a better ability to strong arm congressmen. I don't quite see the same in Obama. Plus he's black and well, no matter what his accomplishments, congress (and the senate especially) is a good ole' boys club. They love their Bushes because he's one of them - and that goes with members of both parties. Do you remember Baucus giving Bush this much trouble on ANYTHING when he was president?

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
90.  in LBJ days there were a number of genuinely liberal and several moderate Republicans
The political configurations were just so different then.

This was in an era when government intervention and social programs were simply part of the American consensus which was largely lost with the rise of Reaganism which effected both political parties. During the days of LBJ even many mainstream Republicans accepted the role of government in trying to improve peoples social circumstances.

President Obama, unfortunately has to work with a political establishment consensus which is far, far less favorable to establishing major new programs administered by the government. Almost thirty years of Reaganism has completely altered political plausibility.

Plus the Democratic Party had such an overwhelming majority following the 1964 landslide.



Summary of Party Affiliation on 1965 vote to establish Medicare


Senate Democrats Yea - 57 /Senate Democrats Nay - 7 /Not Voting - 4

Senate Republicans Yea - 13 /Senate Republicans Nay - 17 /Not Voting - 2

----

House Democrats Yea - 237 /House Democrats Nay - 48 /Not Voting 8

House Republicans Yea - 70 /House Republicans Nay - 68 /Not Voting 2


http://www.ssa.gov/history/tally65.html



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JonLP24 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:56 AM
Response to Original message
93. I liked him over LBJ before Obama was elected
I can't defend my position completely as it has been 6 years since I read Harry Truman and Civil Rights: Moral Courage and Political Risks. My reason is inside that book in which it explains LBJ was against and very vocal against Harry Truman's proposed civil rights legislation. I don't have many details as I only remember vaguely what it was. Glad to see he had a change of heart later on in life.

The book,


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Life Long Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
95. Interesting.
Years later, President Truman wrote: "I have had some bitter disappointments as President, but the one that has troubled me most, in a personal way, has been the failure to defeat the organized opposition to a National compulsory health insurance program. But this opposition has only delayed and cannot stop the adoption of an indispensable Federal health insurance plan."
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
99. 2033 views, and only 9 recs so far
One of them is me!

I guess there must be a few unrec's in the mix too.
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #99
113. of course, some of the douchebags around here can't stand hearing anything good about Obama
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #99
114. I think it set a record for the number of times
a thread appeared on and disappeared from the greatest page.

:)

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Politicub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
101. If he manages to get healthcare universal or at least make...
the process snowball, I agree with you. President Obama and the democrats in congress will be looked upon as heroes as time progresses.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
104. Things could change, but so far he's rivaling Hoover.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. Let's see if this point makes sense:
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 09:52 AM by ProSense
He's rivaling Hoover in this way

The consensus among historians is that Hoover's defeat in the 1932 election was caused primarily by failure to end the downward economic spiral, compounded by popular opposition to prohibition. Other electoral liabilities were Hoover's lack of charisma in relating to voters, and his poor skills in working with politicians. As a result of these factors,

Impact of Obama's stimilus: Just a brief reminder. Industrial production is now rising; so, probably, is real GDP. Given the way the official business cycle dating committee dates recessions, this probably means that the recession — again, as officially defined — is over.

No comparison. Obama stopped the downward economic spiral.

You may have a point on this score:

After his successful election in November 1928, Hoover entered office with a plan for reform of the nation's regulatory system. A dedicated Progressive and Reformer, Hoover saw the presidency as a vehicle for improving the conditions of all Americans by regulation and by encouraging volunteerism. Long before he entered politics he denounced laissez-faire thinking.<22> As Commerce Secretary he had taken an active pro-regulation stance. As President, he helped push tariff and farm subsidy bills through Congress.

Hoover expanded civil service coverage of Federal positions, canceled private oil leases on government lands, and by instructing the Justice Department and the Internal Revenue Service to go after gangsters for tax evasion, he enabled the prosecution of gangster Al Capone. He appointed a commission which set aside 3 million acres (12,000 km²) of national parks and 2.3 million acres (9,000 km²) of national forests; advocated tax reduction for low-income Americans (not enacted); closed certain tax loopholes for the wealthy; doubled the number of veteran's hospital facilities; negotiated a treaty on St. Lawrence Seaway (which failed in the U.S. Senate); wrote a Children's Charter that advocated protection of every child regardless of race or gender; built the San Francisco – Oakland Bay Bridge; created an antitrust division in the Justice Department; required air mail carriers to adopt stricter safety measures and improve service; proposed federal loans for urban slum clearances (not enacted); organized the Federal Bureau of Prisons; reorganized the Bureau of Indian Affairs; instituted prison reform; proposed a federal Department of Education (not enacted); advocated fifty-dollar-per-month pensions for Americans over 65 (not enacted); chaired White House conferences on child health, protection, homebuilding and homeownership; began construction of the Boulder Dam (later renamed Hoover Dam); and signed the Norris-La Guardia Act that limited judicial intervention in labor disputes.


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olegramps Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
105. Don't let the Republicans know about all he has done. They will really be pissed.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
108. LBJ passed Medicare and 1965 Civil Rights Act, and FDR saved us from Hitler and Great Depression
There hasn't been a President since that can come anywhere near them in what they accomplished.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #108
109. People are all too ready
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 11:31 AM by ProSense
to acknowledge that we're facing the worse economic crisis since the Great Depression. The President's critics pounce on the jobs picture to make the most dire case. Obama is in a position to change the economic landscape, not just reverse the situation. From the energy/environment to health care to ending war, Obama could usher in a whole new era. He has the potential to dramatically reshape this country and influence world affairs.

Here is LBJ's foreign policy achievement:

The Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which gave the President the exclusive right to use military force without consulting the Senate, was based on a false pretext, as Johnson later admitted.<44> It was Johnson who began America's direct involvement in the ground war in Vietnam. By 1968, over 550,000 American soldiers were inside Vietnam; in 1967 and 1968 they were being killed at the rate of over 1,000 a month.<45>


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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #109
118. Just as Vietnam became LBJ's albatross, Afghanistan will become Obama's
Can't say that he didn't take this country into escalating this war with both eyes wide open.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. Comparing escalating Vietnam to the current situation in Afghanistan is ludicrous. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #119
125. To ignore the parallels is reckless and foolish
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #125
139. Comparing Afghanistan to Vietnam is ridiculous. n/t
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #139
144. I don't see you enlisting to fight the war you support
The families of the 186 GIs killed this year in Afghanistan have a different perspective on the war than you do.
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stevietheman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-08-09 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #125
151. What parallels? n/t
n/t
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #108
124. I'm glad we don't have those challenges now
As would any sane person.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #110
111. Welcome, lunch will be tasty. n/t
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Toasterlad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
115. So Far, He's Not Even a Better President Than Jimmy Carter.
I certainly have no idea where you get the preposterous notion that Obama's presidency will be a success, but unless he either starts working for us instead of big business, or grows a fucking spine, he might well be the biggest democratic failure in history.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. "I...have no idea where you get the preposterous notion that Obama's presidency will be a success"
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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
120. "Could you imagine if Obama had 68 Dems in the Senate?"
If it were 8 more useless Blue Balled Cowards or corporate fellating DLC'ers, what the fuck difference would it make?

Now 68 REAL Democrats would be great. But how do we get THERE?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. There would be
32 Republicans, not enough to filibuster a single piece of legislation.

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Sebastian Doyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #121
126. Sounds nice in theory.
But you really think The Nelson Twins or Mary Landrieu (and the rest of those extreme DINOS) wouldn't join a Repuke filibuster if it were the only way they could stop progressive legislation?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
122. 68 Dems and back in those days?
Any comparisons are unfair.

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Becky72 Donating Member (457 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #122
128. How many of those 68 Democrats were conservative?
Were Democrats more conservative now or yesterday? When was it harder to pass progressive reforms?
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Garbo 2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #128
135. Dem Congresses had failed to pass civil rights and medicare til LBJ finally got them through
Edited on Mon Sep-07-09 06:16 PM by Garbo 2004
Congress.

LBJ had to wrangle Dems for votes, including Dems who controlled committees and could block legislation and had done so, as well as Repubs to get support for bills such as civil rights and medicare.

It's only glib retrospect without regards to the times and the politics and players that can falsely assume that 68 Dems, a Dem controlled Congress, made it easy for such major progessive legislation to pass in the 60's. Such radical change was not easy then any more than it is now.
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
127. Carter at least had foresight
Because he wanted out of OPEC's game, he got burned. I remember the Carter days, and I remember that some of those gas lines and recession were before Carter. He began the oil reserve, and implementing tax incentives for alternative energy. And, maybe we can look at who was in the military at the time of the "failed" rescue of the hostages in Iran.

Yeah, maybe Carter wasn't an egotist bully like *, but he knew that this country was oil dependent on the ME and he attempted to do something about it. I bet the big boys didn't like that. Sure he made mistakes, and probably listened to the wrong people, but he was way ahead about certain corporations using our military for theft.
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Milk Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
132. He can be better than Superman and Wonder Woman combined
Wonder Woman had a magical lasso and Obama does not. Just imagine what he could do with that lasso.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #132
136. Just imagine if Obama and Wonder Woman had a baby together!
It could rule the world!
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Milk Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #136
142. That would be amazing as well as Glenn Beck's worst nightmare
He's probably going to devote some time this week to the Wonderbama super child. Will she give birth in Kenya?
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #142
143. Not Kenya--a Muslim enclave in Communist China!
Where all guns and Bibles are confiscated!
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Milk Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #143
148. Where the Whiggers reside in Western China?
Just imagine what his magical lasso could do for him there. The lasso could help him free Tibet.
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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
137. This thread is totally hilarious
Expressed a desire to overturn Don't Ask Don't Tell

I'm stunned.....no really, stunned....that this was included in his "accomplishments".

Maybe if he expresses a "desire" for chicken salad for lunch tomorrow you can include that, too. What absolute BS this is.

Btw, I love how people with no historical perspective whatsoever compare Obama to LBJ or FDR. This thread truly is a riot.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. What's a riot is the people who can only make silly comments in response.
Maybe you're not the history maven you pretend to be?

Neither President Obama — nor any of Roosevelt’s successors — has matched that record. But none have faced his challenges. Yes, Mr. Obama is confronting two low-intensity wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, a recession, rising unemployment, a failed auto industry and chronic health care, education, energy and environmental problems. These are all severe and they are urgent, but they are not immediate and are in no way comparable to what Roosevelt faced. The safety net provided by the New Deal allows time for government to move deliberately.

Mr. Obama’s approach to governing is also markedly different from Roosevelt’s. While Mr. Obama is a team player, someone who appears most comfortable reaching out for consensus, Roosevelt was a one-man show. During his New Deal years, Franklin Roosevelt was a polarizing figure. His supporters were so numerous it often seemed that Roosevelt was a unifier, but the truth is that he waged unrelenting class war and thrived on the vilification of his enemies. “They are unanimous in their hatred for me — and I welcome their hatred,” he told a Madison Square Garden crowd in 1936.

There is one way in which the resemblance between Roosevelt and Mr. Obama is striking: in their ability to change the nation’s mindset and usher in a new set of assumptions.

In 1933, Franklin Roosevelt became the leader of a nation that for half a century believed government was best when it governed least. President Obama inherited a third-generation spin-off of that sentiment, popularized by Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan, that government is the problem, not the solution. In both instances, that mindset was overtaken by events.

The same is true with regard to foreign relations. Roosevelt faced a nation locked in the embrace of a xenophobic isolationism. Mr. Obama confronts its direct descendant, the contemporary doctrine of American exceptionalism. The isolationism of the 1930s caused the United States to ignore the threat of German and Japanese imperialism and to close its borders to Europe’s oppressed. The American exceptionalism practiced by the Bush administration provided a license for unilateralism, the dismissal of long-accepted international rules of behavior and a rejection of the canons of diplomatic practice.

To convert public opinion Roosevelt turned to the radio and the fireside chat. Mr. Obama has turned to text messaging and the Internet, the 21st-century equivalents. And just as Roosevelt benefited from his opponents’ inability to exploit the radio effectively, Mr. Obama has been aided by a technologically inept Republican leadership. (When Roosevelt sought to challenge isolationist sentiment in the country, he shed his partisan mantle, putting Republicans like Henry L. Stimson and Frank Knox in his cabinet — just as Mr. Obama has kept his predecessor’s defense secretary, Robert Gates, on the job.)

link

Jean Smith is defending FDR's legacy, but the comparison will be made often and with varying conclusions.

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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #138
145. Stop it, yer killin' me!
First you make the grandiose and completely ridiculous statement that "Obama will be considered a greater President than LBJ, and has the potential to rival FDR" and to prove your point you post a "comparison".

I love this!

I can "compare" my ass to yours, but it's still my ass, isn't it?

Honestly, this stuff is just dumb. I'm embarrassed for you. If you like him and the job he's doing, fine. But don't insult the gay community by listing a failure as an asset, or put him on Mount Rushmore before he's finished a single year in office.

Oh, and look up the Great Society. Maybe you can teach your hero something about giving a shit for the poor and disenfranchised over Wall Street bankers.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #145
146. " can "compare" my ass to yours, but it's still my ass, isn't it?" And probably huge.
This...

Honestly, this stuff is just dumb. I'm embarrassed for you. If you like him and the job he's doing, fine. But don't insult the gay community by listing a failure as an asset, or put him on Mount Rushmore before he's finished a single year in office.


does not refute any of the points in the OP. It's simply you projecting some personal bitterness. Neither FDR or LBJ are on Mount Rushmore.

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Neecy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. *sniff* oh, that hurts....
Or it *would* hurt if my ass was actually huge.

I'm not going to take the time or make the effort to teach you American History 101. You wouldn't listen, anyway, if the conversations above are any indication. But I'll repeat my point that the garbage you've listed as an asset for DADT is like throwing a match in a pool of gasoline - but you know that, don't you?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #147
149. "I'm not going to take the time or make the effort to teach you American History 101." Typical
cop out response. And in that long list of his pledges and accomplishments, harping on his vow to overturn DADT is also a cop out.



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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-07-09 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #137
141. ain't it? n/t
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