Face it DU. We are not in this to get a public option or single payer...we are in this

to get something passed so we can say, "Look America we gave you health care reform and the republicans fought us tooth and nail against it. Now, if you want something good for you and your family; the country, you better vote Democratic because if you don't those sorry bastards will take it all away."

This is life and death. We must win this.

I want a PO as much as the next guy but if this doesn't pass, we are OUT in 2010 and we'll lose in 2012.

Which i guess won't matter because the world ends on 12/12/12.

for him to do the triangulating thing.

Sometimes you just have to deal with reality as it as and not as you wish it to be.

to help them get over it.

We really need to get this passed. The importance and implications cannot be stated enough.

If it's about Dem vs. Repug there should be no question. How is it so easy to forget the bush years? What would we be going back to if the Dems lose?

I'm hoping it IS about healthcare reform and not something else, but hope is fleeting.

Are you sure!?!?

The public option is a surrogate for the real answer - single payer. Eventually through the public option people will become more familiar with what single payer is about and will eventually build a consensus for it.

If we get sidetracked into some mickey mouse solution with cooperatives and other complex non structural changes, leaving the insurance companies deciding who they will cover and who they will not and not let the people walk away from insurance companies then we simply will lose a historic chance to get us started on the right path.


If it doesn't include the public option then let the whole thing go down and we should fight to make it the issue in the next election.

Without the public option we will be forcing people to buy private insurance not reforming a corrupt system.

grant.

You can have reform that allows private exchanges, but heavily regulates the insurers where they must accept someone with pre-existing conditions, can't you? Why wouldn't that work?

...to "heavily regulate" an Industry that is giving them over $1Million/day?

Lets do a history search and find examples where the Democrats have imposed effective regulation on any Industry in the last 30 years:
.
.
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ANY "regulation" imposed on the Health Insurance Industry will be written by the lobbyists, lacking effective penalties, lacking a well funded enforcement agency, and be easily circumvented.
The "enforcement" avenue will probably be lawsuits filed by the consumer (from a hospital bed).

same insurers out of business?

are shelling out millions of dollars to gut the teeth.

There is no way that we can keep up with all of the small print. We are getting raped on Pharmaceuticals and they were supposed to have a trigger too.

Here we are talking about what might work when we know what does work - in every other developed country in the world - single payer.

Oh and it works here too - called Medicare.


Health Insurance companies DO NOT ADD ANY VALUE to the product they are selling. If you regulate it basically you are putting the government in charge of creating a unified system, the HC companies bear no risk (all the companies use the same regulations) but the HC companies continue to reap profits even though they risk nothing. This is not capitalism. It is structural oligarchy.


Now think of an airport, paid and controlled by public entities. Private Airlines compete for the business.

That is what the Public Option/Single Payer does. It creates a real platform for competition that actually more closely fits true capitalism than what we have now. Medical Doctors, Practices, Hospitals and Clinics now would compete for your dollar, in the same way airlines compete --- but they wouldn't have anything to do with running the airport.


Anything less than a Public Option (which is the compromise) will take pressure off real change. Whatever passes they will say it will take 5 years to see if the insurance companies control cost. In 5 years we will have the same fight all over again.

health care reform is a sham. Period. This is even more true if a mandate is created by the
legislation or if health care premiums are taxed. Without a public option,
the insurance companies have basically written the legislation.

Please tell me how that is reform?

..... we're DOING this to make a better life for the American people.

..... and get Barack Obama reelected in the process. ;)

If it ends "preexisting conditions" and caps on annual and lifetime coverage, that will make it important legislation, but not reform. If it provides, as Baucus' bill apparently does, that families making 300% of the poverty line won't have to pay more than 13% of their income toward health coverage, that will also be a step in the right direction.

But what about people making 350% of the poverty line? Are they that much better off that nothing should be done for them? Someone making 56k per year shouldn't be forced to go broke over health care costs, but someone making 90k should, evidently. All this just goes to show that we're not looking at anything here which would really change the balance in health care coverage in this country. It won't control costs, and we'll be back here in 5 or 10 years hopefully taking another step in the right direction.

Someday, it seems, we'll have some crazy-ass patchwork of subsidies, mandates and government programs which will somehow cover everybody. But, because it is not a holistic solution to the issue of cost, it will be insanely inefficient and expensive relative to other states which have actually tackled this problem head-on, leaving us in the same spot as we are today: paying more and receiving worse outcomes than any other industrialized state. Whoop-de-doo.

So if saving Obama's presidency means sacrificing a bunch of half-measures that won't help everybody, then let's not do that. It wouldn't be worth it to suffer a "huge defeat" over something that's already falling way, way short of most of our goals.

Is that some of the biggest opposition to real HCR is coming, not from the Republicans, but from the "centrist" Democrats.

Voters are going to see the Democrats as a party that could not get together on this thing, and it is going to hurt us.

on board.

rahm made his bed now he must sleep with the pigs he brung.

If there is no Public Option,
he (and Obama & The Centrists working WITH the Republicans) will be FORCING ME to sleep with PIGS....The For Profit Health Insurance Industry.

the GOP might make SOME gains in 2010, but they've yet to show any coherent message that will appeal to swing voters who leaned hard left in 2008.

let alone disgruntled progressives - where are they going? i started out disgruntled, and Obama's already got my vote in 2012.

your scenario that we're "OUT in 2010" isn't remotely realistic.

Blue Dogs get zero support from principled progressives, and we wind up with moderate Republicans in their place. Just like it was in those districts before the Iraq War.

Anything less than a public option simply guarantees the status quo remains, and that is unacceptable.

We have to - otherwise we are nothing but a meaningless label "Democrat" which is just another flavor of "republican". I won't support ANY candidate that does not fight to the finish for the public option.

K&R

If we TAX (oh yesiree, get used to that label) every living, breathing citizen of the United States for being alive - for SHIT COVERAGE, Democrats will NEVER be able to even approach healthcare again.

And while we are criminalizing the least of those, people will die in the process.

I never "drew the line in the sand" - EVER - before this, but WHEN does it matter if you "win" elections and never get fundamental things done????

If that is the case, it boils down to helping elected officials keep their seats, not helping desperate Americans.

we need another 4 to 8 years to get it.

This is just the baby step.

the PO which is suicide.

Hey. Justitia just solved HCR.

You are clueless as to how all this goes down and has gone down in the past.

We have a single shot here, and then we are FUCKING DONE with the possibility.

And if you are just peachy-keen with handing the republicans the giant freaking club of a "mandatory tax", then you never want to see a Democrat win elected office again.

Meanwhile, millions and millions of Americans are STILL at the mercy of insurance companies who will spend all those new billions finding ways to screw them out of care.

Fuck this ignorance.

young in '93 to know what was happening. How vicious was the opposition?
Thanks in advance.

was such a bloodbath that Clinton couldn't help but fail.

It seems like a bloodbath now.
Where there irate people screaming at Town Hall meetings all over the country?
Did we have obstinate Blue Dogs to contend with?
Elected officials claiming that Bill Clinton was going to literally kill granny?
Guns and constant death threats?

the republicans hate Hillary so bad.

They didn't want a smart first lady to do anything. It was historical to have a FLotUS working on something so critical.

Republicans did the same thing they are doing now, except she didn't have the power to do anything really and she did it all in the WH and not in congress. Plus she bloodied some noses behind closed doors. We didn't have town halls. The bill was overly complicated and she didn't get Dem congressional by in and that caused her problems in a huge way with her own party.

We didn't have as huge of a Blue Dog problem but what we did have is congressional Dems who instead of backing Hillary stood back and let her get beat up because the bill came from the WH. . That is why her running for senate was a huge deal because they thought she had payback in mind.

In the end we got nothing done. Which is why Progressives hate her. But why then now do they want to do an all or nothing thing now.

I don't get that logic.

We were rolling out new plans for our employees to help with Hillary's reform effort.

I traveled 10k miles to roll out new benefit plans.

Puhleez.

Thanks.

But, they are OK with doing nothing now if we don't get the PO.

So that means Clinton sucked for doing nothing but Obama is great for doing nothing cuz we didn't get a PO.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

see that logic?

there will be nothing and something means no public option?

You're laughing, but your whole point is speculative nonsense.

disagree. I just don't get this logic either.

103rd Congress (1993-1995)

Majority Party: Democrat (57 seats)

Minority Party: Republican (43 seats)


104th Congress (1995-1997)

Majority Party: Republican (52 seats)

Minority Party: Democrat (48 seats)


The Dems lost nine Seats in the Senate.

Most of us are in it for single payer or a strong public option.

We understand that anything less than a bill with a strong public option is the legislation demanded by the insurance industry, drug cartel and for profit health care industry. Such a bill if passed will put off universal health care for at least another generation.

Don't try and put lipstick on that pig.

reality is dictating @ the moment.

I mean if there is a rapture and all the republicans vanish then yes, we'll have a PO or Single Payer. But I don't see that happening so...we get what we get.

Geebus.

The public voted for real health care reform, fully support real health care reform, gave the Democratic Party large majorities in Congress and the Presidency to deliver it. So what happens if it fails? The Party gets punished by voters and that means they vote for the others.

...shows that party doesn't really care.

Have a good evening.

I just don't see it happeneing.

can take it all the way.

Kennedy Liberal.

Even he was willing to deal to get something.

I suppose you hate his guts too.

the bill will have a public option

the single-payer, we decided to take a hit and go for the PO but it isn't working.
We screwed it up, and allowed the republicans to shit on it.

Why can't people see the unfortunate reality this mess.

There it is the mark of triangulating.

Whew glad you're on our side. You're perfect.
Now go fix healthcare what are you doing wasting your time @ DU. I'm sure there is an advisers job open in the WH or something.

be quality.

Please make it better for those that have no health insurance.

Please make those that make over $100,000 a year pay extra.

I don't make that but I'm willing to pay extra if it will help someone else.

Why are we protecting the ones that need no protection ~ that is the part I don't get.

Other than that ~ let's get the best deal we can and see how it works.

Whatever we do ~ it has got to set a quality example in order to make people realize how valuable it is ~

:patriot:

I better move my plans up a bit.

But in regards to the real point, anything less than a strong public option is a complete failure.

And $5800 for the out of pockets.

wannabe like his ass?

His bill is the insurance lobby's wet dream and the Dems will be having to compromise and include some of its elements.

I understand the point of your post but there are times when doing something actually IS worse than doing nothing. I hate to use this analogy but I feel like I'm forced to do it: When we were attacked by terrorists on 9/11, Dumbya responded by fucking up shit in Afghanistan and invading another country that had fuck all to do with 9/11 and fucking up shit there. But hey, you can't say he didn't do something! So now we have a situation where Americans are being destroyed by our health care system. The response that seems to be proposed is "force people to buy private insurance and hand the insurance industry a bunch of new subsidies."

If we pass a bill that has no public option but a public mandate (complete with penalties) then you can kiss 2010 away and probably 2012 as well. The only low-cost insurance that will be available will be of the junk sort, the type that would bankrupt you with even a short hospital stay.

This is NOT what people voted for.

I don't blame Obama, although he let the GOP message rule the day and get out of control. I blame the entire corruption of our political system. Maybe everyone should lose in 2010, just throw the bought-and-paid-for bums of both parties OUT.

and with the help of Dems the repugs win and it goes down.

We say we won? We tried to get something done and we couldn't get repugs to buy in.
the outcome is....
We look weak. We still lose.

If we're going to take baby steps, they can do this and possibly call it a win - and for many Americans, it would be.

--Get rid of pre-existing condition clauses that allow the insurance companies to cherry-pick,
--A maximum out-of-pocket cost, perhaps a percentage

BUT...if you include a mandate in this sad little bit of "reform", forcing people to pay for the massive insurance company profits, shareholder profits and bloated executive salaries, I guarantee the blowback would hurt us in 2010 and beyond. If they take the mandate out, my head wouldn't explode over losing the public option (although it'll still piss me off). But the mandate minus a public option is the worst of all worlds.

Just make it a regulatory bill, which means we lose all the freaking momentum we've been building, but hey, at least we won't become the most hated political party on earth.

But here's the thing....we are RIGHT THERE, we can actually pull it off.
And the conservadems will NOT kill the bill if the true blue dems and our very popular president come down like a ton of bricks on their heads.
It is going to take political will & intestinal fortitude, but this time - Americans are screaming to get this done.
Some around here are laying down and dying before it's necessary, we are on the cusp.

If we start taxing people for not having health care, offering them only crappy care at exorbitant prices, that is not only a step in the wrong direction on health care but also political suicide. It would be better to lose honestly than make things worse. What's so hard about that?

let shit that has exorbitant prices that shit go anywhere.

Isn't exorbitant prices the problem we have right now with HC. You don't have to pass a bill to make that shit happen. It's happening.

That's the only way they can claim 'universal' health care. And Obama has said nothing about opposing mandates. I think the mandate appears in every committee bill thus far.

because, you know, you have to pay it for taking a breath - clever, huh?

Is this not the dumbest idea of ours that you have ever heard?

I thought it was suicidal during the primaries & I still do.

Obama was against mandates then, now, I'm not sure.

Edwards and Hillary both supported mandates - Obama didn't. Talk about bait and switch...

Suicidal is a good word for it, and yes, it's the dumbest thing we've come up with in my memory. Wait until the teabaggers hold massive rallies against this - and this time, they won't look like crackpots.

There's only ONE mandate that makes sense - single payer, and take the funding for it out of a payroll tax or our Federal taxes. That's truly universal coverage. Forcing us to write checks for shitty coverage to our insurance industry overlords is NOT universal coverage. It's corporate blackmail enforced by the government.

And I don't want any of my friends who are unable to afford health insurance and who don't qualify for anything now offered by the government to die either. I already lost one friend to no insurance at the age of 42. If our broken "system" doesn't get fixed, people will die. People I know.

And if Obama turns out to be a Corporate whore, well I could care less about re-electing him. What good are Democrats who could actually improve the quality of life in this country and choose to suck up to Corporations instead? How are they any better than Republicans who don't even pretend to give a shit about us?

are the bad guys here. They are, quite bluntly, racketeers and privateers. So long as they are involved in the process we are going to get crapped on.

If a bill gets passed, and it's a lousy bill, who do you think gets the blame for it? It won't be the Republicans. If a moderately lame and toothless bill gets passed, there won't be much support for it on the left.

to congress, the senate and the white house for re-election. Whatever that takes in concessions is what we will get.
Apparently another massive taxpayer transfer of wealth to the top is the price.

And anything that REWARDS the criminal insurance corporations for being complete total fucking bastards (ie. national RomneyHillaryCare) is the polar opposite of reform.

Fuck that.

While imposing harsh economic burdens on the poor and unemployed.

All so that we can say the Democrats achieved some sort of political "victory". :puke:

I used to think, back when I was young and naive, that the Democratic party was above such cold political calculations. Now this simply confirms my cynicism. Political victory uber alles, and just sweep all those dead bodies under the rug.

to be proud of. Just another huge bone to the Insurance Mafia.