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Eight more dead today. When do we call it quits on Afghanistan?

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LittleBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 12:29 PM
Original message
Eight more dead today. When do we call it quits on Afghanistan?
Edited on Sun Oct-04-09 12:30 PM by LittleBlue
KABUL - Militant fighters streaming from an Afghan village and a mosque attacked a pair of remote outposts near the Pakistani border, killing eight U.S. soldiers and as many as seven Afghan forces in one of the fiercest battles of the eight-year war.

The Taliban claimed responsibility for the deadliest attack for coalition forces since a similar raid in July 2008 killed nine American soldiers in the same mountainous region known as an al-Qaida haven. The U.S. has already said it plans to pull its soldiers from the isolated area to focus on Afghan population centers.

Fighting began around dawn Saturday and lasted several hours, punctuated by American airstrikes. Jamaludin Badar, governor of Nuristan province, said the two outposts were on a hill — one near the top and one at the foot of the slope — flanked by the village on one side and the mosque on the other.

Nearly 300 militant fighters flooded the lower Afghan outpost then swept around it to reach the American station on higher ground from both directions, said Mohammad Qasim Jangulbagh, the provincial police chief. The U.S. military statement said the Americans and Afghans repelled the attack by tribal fighters and "inflicted heavy enemy casualties."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33160876/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

When do we give up on this failed nation-building experiment?

I'm ready for it to be now. And frankly, I'm tired of us being forced to spout the same old, tired Vietnam-era propaganda. This is Bush's fucking war, why are we owning it? I'm not on an ideological crusade to pull burkas off heads.
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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. Today works for me.
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Today works for me, as well.
They either need to get out, or get it done once and for all. There is no in between.

For me, I wish they'd just bring our people home.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. The only reason to be in Afghanistan is to protect ourselves.
Is fighting in Afghanistan the best way to do that, or are there more effective methods that don't involve killing people and getting our troops killed?

Are we stepping into the middle of civil war in Afghanistan?

If other outside forces are present in Afghanistan, who are they and can we address the situation better by addressing them directly? For example, is Saudi money involved?

If the concern is nuclear weapons or dirty bombs, shouldn't we be talking to the people who have the weapons?

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Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 12:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. 20-24 months. n/t
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. Give it 10 more years, it will turn around.
By then we'll have ran out most of the AQ and Taliban. Of course, new enemies will arise in response to our actions, but we can go back in anytime.:grr:
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 12:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. Could be a while longer.


:(

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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
6. I often compare wikipedia to my paper Enc. Britannica, and
often to their electronic version, as well.

Wiki's history of Afghanistan is not bad, although it is light on how badly we - the US - have fucked up that country, at least two times.
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BobRossi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. Yesterday
This war is completely un-winnable.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
8. i dunno -
aren't there a whole damn lot of people there who WANT to be free of the Taliban?

Women are a whole lot better off now than they were before we came. If we leave, what do you think will happen to all those "girls schools" and the advances that have been made towards freedom?

I don't like war. Period. But I also worry about those who are not strong enough to free themselves from oppression.

What about them? Do we just abandon them to their fate and say "oh well"?
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. There are countries all over the world like that, that oppress women
Edited on Sun Oct-04-09 02:05 PM by Jennicut
We don't have the resources to invade all of them and it should not be a reason to stay there as we cannot fix the world. We cannot even fix our own problems.
The only reason to go there was to capture Bin Laden and take out Al-Qaeda. That was it. We kept expanding our reasoning for being there and in Iraq when the original intentions of finding WMD and Osama did not work out. Only thing we managed in Afghanistan was to push Al-Qaeda out...to Pakistan. Pakistan has nukes. We really did a great job on this one.
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Garam_Masala Donating Member (711 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
39. Yes women are oppressed in many countries
Edited on Tue Oct-06-09 10:54 PM by Garam_Masala
and especially so in countries where "sharia" law is in effect.
And I agree we can't do a damn thing about it, so long as it
goes against their religious beliefs.

However Afghanistan was the nerve center of Al Qaeda and Usama Bin Laden
lived and operated freely there during 911. So we can't completely ignore it.

The way I look at it, we either get our soldiers out of Afghanistan
completely and soon, or give it one more all out effort one time only.
This half-ass fighting a band of guerrilla fighters is dumb.
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timeforpeace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
9. If Obama had campaigned to pull out, it wouldn't be such a lose-lose scenario. Leave, it's a defeat
ala Vietnam. Stay, it's a long and bloody defeat, ala Vietnam. Yes, we don't see leaving now as a defeat, but everyone else will. Including the media, the Repukes and a lot of Dems, and the historians. Painted into a corner. No way out.
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rmp yellow Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. More troops might significantly decrease the casualties
Iraq was hell before the surge began. Now violence is very low there. It's plausible to think that a boost in troop number would do the work in Afghanistan as well.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. The violence is lower because partly because we paid off the Sunnis.
Edited on Sun Oct-04-09 02:08 PM by Jennicut
Look up the Awakening on google. The surge might have helped but we essentially paid off the Sunnis. http://politicalmpressions.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/money-not-surge/
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AllentownJake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. At the same time we did the surge
we started bribing Sunni chieftains not to shoot at us.

Here is the reality in Iraq. The chieftains still have their guns and are simply waiting for us to leave to start shooting again.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. Uh, the terrain in Afghanistan is MUCH different than in Iraq ...
let's just say its more ... HILLY. :eyes:

The only effect that a Troop Surge will do is draw in more "suicide bombers" and end up in larger number of PEOPLE killed: American/Allied Troops, Taliban, Civilians, goats etc. etc. etc.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. When Pakistan decides they're done with their nukes. NT
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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. This is the wrong venue to ask that question. It should
be put to President Obama. It is his war.
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RepublicanElephant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-04-09 09:52 PM
Response to Original message
15. but if we leave, who will save the poor children...
...and the poor gas pipelines bush/cheney went through so much trouble for?

and don't forget the poor opium crops.

who will save them?

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


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babydollhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
16. kick
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
17. Karzai's stolen election is enough reason to get the hell out
Fish or cut bait, and I vote for cutting bait and bringing all the troops home now.
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dflprincess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. We will call it quits
when the war profiteers stop making money on it.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
19. I'm not buying counter insurgency one iota on this failed non-state but troops getting killed
isn't a signal to stop military action, its just not. If you initiate military action it is expected that body bags will be needed.

I think we are mostly in Afghanistan at this point because we don't want to come out and say we're in Pakistan. Pakistan had the overwhelming majority of the training camps, damn near a failed government and certainly an unstable one, and of course nukes. The securing of resources (pipelines) is also a factor and probably #1 why we went in but there is plenty of legitimate concern about how Pakistan has devolved the whole way too and I think most rational people that aren't hardcore ideological doves can see value in not having Pakistan's nukes unsecured.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Saudi financed madrassas in Pakistan and elsewhere are training future terrorists
You can't drain the swamp until you deal with Saudi Arabia.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
21. Minimum, several more years. Bush's gang really screwed up the
military effort in Afghanistan for a very long time - it's a physical impossibility to disengage and leave the country in anything less than a year,even if you started today, and I am certain there will be further military action there for some time to come. It was a terrible decision to start fighting there, and it was always thought of as the lesser war to Iraq, with typical Republican logic.
Afghanistan has historically been a trap for other countries who fought there.

mark
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #21
31. Bullshit! From this point on, it's Obama's War. No more Bush blaming
WE, the democratic party OWN THIS horrific mess.

The least worst of two terrible choices is to LEAVE NOW.
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niceypoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Just another Bush fire for Obama to put out
You might own it, I dont.
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branders seine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
22. not for years and years and years
if ever
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jeanpalmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
23. Probably only when the money runs out
Might be a couple of years yet, but we're headed in that direction.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
25. send special UN forces to Afghanistan
The US can be there but all countries could be affected by Al Q so the UN can play a dominant role.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #25
33. No those "surgical strikes" are not SO PRECISE. For every innocent we kill
we create more ENEMIES. It's stupid to continue to kill the natives (yes the Taliban are the locals) and expect them to do anything but LOATHE the occupiers.
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. but if there is a problem
the UN can deal with the perpetrators and leave the innocents.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
26. Heeding David Kilcullen's advice would be wise here:
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
27. Obama's "not on an ideological crusade to pull burkas off heads," either.
He has said more than once that it is NOT our job to force democracy on anyone. Try as hard as you may, you can't make Obama into Bush.
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. Quit?? Was it over when we tortured people in Abu Ghraib? Was it over when we leveled Fallujah??
Was it over when we partitioned Baghdad with walls? Was it over when we resumed poppy production in Afghanistan? Was it over when we said we would be leaving Iraq but continued construction of gigantic permanent bases and a 107 acre "Embassy" complex anyway? Was it over when we lined up 100 old people women and babies in My Lai and mowed them down with machine guns?

This "we" you speak of is a hollowed out feeble country wrapped inside a global military Empire. "We" don't know how to quit.
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ShortnFiery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Into the Valley of Death ...
We're IDIOTS if we stay in Afghanistan. However, there's lots of money to be made by our private contractors so I guess it must be worth all the FUTURE death and destruction? :crazy:

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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #28
35. Yep - that's the problem, the "global military empire." It will takes a fearless leader...
...to steer the country away from that and toward a green economy.
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polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
34. imo we should pull all our troops out as soon as we can provide transportation. nt


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enough already 2 Donating Member (45 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-06-09 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
37. Yesterday
Chimpy's war, not Obama's. I have no idea what Obama is waiting for. Just get out.
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