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With nearly 56 Senators supporting a public option, O’Donnell makes ridiculous suggestion

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:34 PM
Original message
With nearly 56 Senators supporting a public option, O’Donnell makes ridiculous suggestion

Why Reid Shouldn’t Include The Public Option In The Merged Senate Bill

Lawrence O’Donnell — who served as Senate Finance Committee staff director during the debate over President Clinton’s failed health care reforms — tells Politico’s Live Pulse that Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) shouldn’t merge the Senate Finance Committee’s health bill with the HELP Committee’s far more progressive alternative. Sen. George Mitchell tried that in 1994 and Republicans went line-by-line successfully defeating the bill:

“The basic lesson of ’94 is don’t bother trying to merge those bills,” said Lawrence O’Donnell, who served as Senate Finance Committee staff director during the debate over President Clinton’s failed health care reforms. After Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell merged the finance and labor committee bills, Republicans successfully targeted the more liberal labor committee provisions for deletion and won their removal with 100-0 votes. After about a week of watching the GOP dismantle the bill line-by-line, Mitchell was forced to take it off the floor, essentially killing reform. This go ’round, O’Donnell told Pulse, Reid would be wise to largely ignore the HELP bill and push forward with the more moderate Baucus bill, which includes provisions that President Obama has endorsed.

The most controversial element of this health care reform fight is, of course, the public option and Reid has flip-flopped on his willingness to include the provision in the merged Senate legislation. On Thursday, Reid promised, “We are going to have a public option before this bill goes to the President’s desk,” suggesting that the bill will move to the floor of the Senate with the public plan. Meanwhile, “senior administration officials have been holding private meetings almost daily at the Capitol with senior Democratic staff to discuss ways to include a version of the public plan in the healthcare bill that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) plans to bring to the Senate floor this month.”

But is O’Donnell right? Does it make more sense to exclude the public plan from the Senate bill and add it during Conference? I think it does. The public plan has become a political wedge issue. Republicans have stacked their entire opposition to reform on the public plan, effectively shutting out any meaningful discussion about affordability or insurance regulations.

Excluding the public option from the Senate bill could broaden the health care debate. Republicans will complain that they need assurances that a public option won’t be added in during conference. They’ll spend more energy questioning the constitutionality of the individual mandate, the wisdom of eliminating the overpayments to private insurers participating in Medicare Advantage, rationing abortions to women, and ensuring that legal immigrants don’t have access to care.

more

Democrats should give Republicans more room to debate? Insanity.

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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
1. I like O'Donnell, but he thinks it's still 1994.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think a lot of these pundits do.
They spend most of the time criticizing Obama while advocating nonsense.



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Pab Sungenis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
3. And people were telling me that the Baucus bill wouldn't form the final bill?
One more sign that it's going to if we don't stop it cold!
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. O'Donnell is deciding?
O'Donnell is a pundit.

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boobooday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
4. Oh yeah, we always tiptoe around the GOP, worried about their bipartisan feelings
When they have none.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think O'Donnell has made the 1994 situation more like 2009 than it was
At least from what I remember, Mitchell himself created a plan that was essentially compromising things on the Clinton plan - making things kick in later and making it cover fewer people. I don't think it was a merger of a HELP and a Finance committee bill.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Exactly, the situations aren't remotely similar. n/t
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think that you missed ODonnell's point

His point is that if you merge the bills they will be held hostage on the Senate floor by a week of ammendments.

Better to pass them through without ammendment and then do the merging in the conference committee, bring the merged bill to the Senate for an up or down vote.

If the end game has already been scripted and a few of the Senators have already agreed that they will vote against public option but will not support a filibuster then this makes perfect sense, don't bother with pointless debate in the Senate just push it through and bring back the merged bill out of committee.

Not conclusive but more and more it looks like the final vote has been scripted and they just want to get on with it.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I didn't miss his point, and it's lame
Better to pass a bill with a strong public option in the Senate. They already have the votes. End the gaming.

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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. lol right O'Donnell has no real expertise that might be germaine.

You have avoided the principal point that O'Donnell has made.


Merging the bills on the floor of the Senate will be a messy and protracted process and give unnecessary air time to the opponents of the bill.

The President has successfully sucked the air out the media for the other side and O'Donnell is saying that to allow them a week of ammendments will give them an opportunity to re-ignite their firestorm without any benefit because the bills will still have to be merged again in the conference committee.

And then there is this: If, as it increasingly appears by statements made by Harkin, Rockfeller, and Dean, that the end game has in fact been agreed and scripted it probably includes the caveate to the blue dog Senators that hey have a chance to vote no on the particulars before they are forced to vote yes on the final bill.


There are lots of reasons that O'Donnell would suggest this route and all of them include things that he can't disclose publicly.

He is very well connected and very bright and rarely wrong on strategy.

Any advice O'Donnell gives I would consider very carefully.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. "Merging the bills on the floor of the Senate will be a messy" The bills have to be merged anyway,
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 01:10 PM by ProSense
and a public option has the support of up to 56 Senators. So where is the mess supposed to come from: Republicans?

The process in Finance was supposed to be messy too. A week of so-called mess is hardly a reason to exclude a public option when it already has enough support.

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. The Conference Report CANNOT BE AMENDED
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 01:27 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
Key difference.

I am not endorsing O'Donnell 100%, but what he is saying is far from stupid.

The merger of the bills in conference cannot be subjected to a zillion amendments.

The merger of the bills on the floor can.

Procedural thing. Conference version can only be voted up or down.

No matter how many Senators support a public option there will be little aspects of the bill that nobody wants to vote for in isolation.

There are not 56 votes for every single line of almost any HCR. And amendments are all but unlimited in the Senate, unlike te House.

For instance, any enforcement mechanism for a mandate. Nobody likes it politically, but it would be a necessary component. Or some of the funding stuff that, taken in ISOLATION seems to de-fund Medicare.

And if anything is stripped out on the Senate floor then it doesn't make it to conference. (On the Senate side.)
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. So how does having a public option in the Senate bill change that? n/t
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 01:22 PM by ProSense
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I updated post above. There isn't 56 support for every line, every aspect
The puglican approach will be to whittle out individual aspects that are, taken by themselves, unpopular.

And complex legislation is full of carrots and sticks, credits and debits. The sticks and debits don't fare well as up-down votes on that one thing. And without the bitter pills there's no working bill.

A lot of this is about campaign ads. A Senator who will vote for cloture on a bill is not necessarily willing to vote for a specific unpopular part of the bill.

Granted, simply getting the finance bill to conference has major weaknesses also. Bills seldom get more liberal in conference.

But what O'Donnell is saying is important, even if not scripture.

The more individual Senators are put to the test the more defections you get. 100 different votes in the Senate will weaken Dem unity, so it is not unreasonable to consider alternatives.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. This logic makes no sense, and why is it being applied only to a public option?
The puglican approach will be to whittle out individual aspects that are, taken by themselves, unpopular.


The Republicans are going to do this anyway, and in the end they are not going to vote for the bill.

So arguing that their tactics will weaken Democratic unity as a reason for excluding a public option is lame.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. "There are not 56 votes for every single line of almost any HCR. And amendments are...unlimited "
What does that have to do with the fact that there are 56 votes for a public option?

I find it highly hypocritical and disingenuous that people who have been harshly criticial of Obama and denouncing Baucus for selling out to insurance companies are now advocating that a public option be eliminated from the final Sentat bill.

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. There's no such thing as Public Option as an isolated entity
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 01:46 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
Any Public Option is made up of hundreds of interlocking pages of particulars. There is not 56 support for every line, voted on independently.

I have problems with what O'Donnell is suggesting, and also have problems with the alternative.

The key is whether there is a specific plan to move something in conference. We don't know that.

If there is an actual Reid-Pelosi plan to liberalize the bill in conference then it should be moved out of the Senate ASAP.

If there is not such a plan then it should be fought on the Senate floor.

I have no idea whether such a plan exists or whether it is fantasy.

I prefer that a public option pass, as does O'Donnell. And I see his point. It is possible for the Senate to produce something even weaker than the Bacus bill, even with majority support for a public option conceptually. Devil, details, etc.

Without 60 to cut off debate and amendments the process can get very ugly.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Don't be ridiculous. A public option is not the same thing as the entire HELP bill. n/t
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. It all boils down to one question:
Do Reid and Pelosi have a plan to issue a conference bill with the PO?

If they plan to do that then O'Donnell is making sense. If that is the plan then there is no point having the Senate spend a month rejecting PO in a 60 vote environment. That could only hurt.

If they do not plan to finesse the PO in conference then PO is on life support anyway -- maybe some weak-ass trigger thing.

So in the scenario where PO is most viable a Senate floor fight on PO probably isn't helpful. Unless someone has 60 votes.

It is one thing to keep the House PO in a conference bill. It is another to do so after the Senate has rejected it. (People don't like being against it before they were for it.) O'Donnell is suggesting that if you don't have 60 votes it is probably best to not put the question to the Senate pre-conference.

If a worthwhile PO can achieve cloture in the Senate then I'm all for it. The gap from 56 to 60 is a big one, though.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. What the hell are you talking about?
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 02:11 PM by ProSense
If they plan to do that then O'Donnell is making sense. If that is the plan then there is no point having the Senate spend a month rejecting PO in a 60 vote environment. That could only hurt.

A month?

So in the scenario where PO is most viable a Senate floor fight on PO probably isn't helpful. Unless someone has 60 votes.

If Democrats unite against a filibuster, this point is moot. They don't need 60 votes on the Senate floor.

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. If you believe there are 60 votes for cloture on HELP then we have no problems
"If Democrats unite against a filibuster, this point is moot. They don't need 60 votes on the Senate floor."

Well, yeah... if 60 Dems unite for anything it passes. That's kind of a tautology.

If we have 60 votes for cloture on the HELP bill then there is nothing to even talk about.

You tell Lawrence O'Donnell that you have 60 votes for cloture on the HELP bill and I promise you he will withdraw his statement and we can all have a party.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #25
30. They have 60 votes on the conference committee bill
but they have agreed to let them vote against it before that.

There will also be some deficit reducing measure that they can take home and show that played a valuable part.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Correct and I have a theory

there is already an agreement that some Senators need to vote against the bill but have agreed not to filibuster.

Additionally some Senators want to appear that they have only given in at the last minute.

Expect some face saving moves on the deficit.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. It's not a theory, it's a
reality. So a public option has the votes to pass.


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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. That is part of it - the other is that the other members of the Democratic
Senate Caucus that feel they cannot vote for it will be given a chance to vote for the Finance Bill and against the other Senate Bill.

There will also be a last minute face saving gesture - probably aimed at strengthening provisions to ensure that it is deficit neutral or increase revenues - that will allow these Senators to go home and say that they have won.

If this is correct it would explain why O'Donnell is saying what he is - that the script has already been written and people have already agreed to play their part - to fight it out on the floor of the Senate would be counter productive.

The President flew to Montana and hoisted Senator Baucus on his shoulders. I find it difficult to believe that he left Montana without getting an agreement on the end game and his complimentary words were a down payment on a promise that he would do everything he could to boost Baucus in the future.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I don't agree and don't buy that.
Every indication is that the Senate is poised to pass a bill with a public option. They have the votes. It makes no sense to have the votes, but pass on the vote in order to allow a game to play out.

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peaches2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
10. If Harry were already back in NV
Can you imagine how Obama would be doing with Congress if Harry were not Majority Leader and we had a strong forceful pro-Obama Senator with some public appeal in charge?
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #10
32. That would be nice and apparently
too easy.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
12. This is the guy who fills in for Olbermann? Don't especially like it when he does . ..
Otoh, Rachel had a terrific gal fill in for her recently --

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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. We need a real public plan that drives down the cost and is not a giveaway to insurance companies.
How much do we have to sacrifice to get one lousy Republican vote!

The goal ought to be affordable, accessible health care. The Senate Finance bill doesn't get us there. It does a poor job of bending the cost curve.

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. The bill doesn't need any Republican votes to pass. n/t
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jenmito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 02:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. O'Donnell had been saying that there will be NO healthcare bill saying that Clinton
was in a much BETTER position at this point in time than Obama (he said this, more than once, weeks ago).
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-05-09 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
33. O'Donnell is interesting, and the discussion here has been actually informative.
Edited on Mon Oct-05-09 04:08 PM by freddie mertz
Special props to Kurt_and_Hunter and grantcart for teasing out some of the intricacies.

What threatened to start as the usual "bash" ended up a very good thread indeed.
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