HELP! Emailing with a freeper...who is also a friend, eek

Anyways, we are going back and forth and she wrote the following,

"well, John Kerry did volunteer, but the swift boat he volunteered to go on, was supposted to be a non combat boat. He wasn't supposted to go to war. You also said that many of those who were with him said he was brave...many more (the swift boat veterans for truth who have now put out a book. Question, if the democratic party believes in free speech...then why are they trying so hard to shut this group up?? Publishers have been warned, and law suits have been threatened???) have said they didn't admire him, and he was not an amimiable man. (This group has nothing to do with the Bush campaign. Bush has many times said that he respects Kerry for his active duty service.) Bush has also denounced demoralizing campaigning (check the news). However, after Kerry returned from the vetenam war, he became a protester, and even burned the American flag at an anti-war demonstration. Scott and I are proud to hang the flag, and treat it with respect even by following the appropriate etiquet for folding it and taking care of it. To us the flag is a sacred symbol of America, our history, our fore fathers' struggle, and fight for freedom for all of us. Not to mention all that America still does and stands for. I don't want a President who thinks it's okay to burn flags. Kerry, Jane Fonda, and others who protested so emphantically, were part responsible to the fact that when soldiers came home, there was no welcome home, congratulations, thank you for fighting for our country, etc. Some claim, that they were treated, almost with hostility and they had nothing to do with the cause for war, they just were serving their country. To me soldiers always deserve respect, especially when they come home. John kerry...enlisted...came home and protested...then voted for war in Iraq...then voted to cut 60 billion dollars of the money that went towards their aid, food, and amunition, etc. I don't want a president that is that wishy-washy. He changes his mind almost routinly about issues, and acts as though he's always stood for the issue."

Any information you can give me would be much appreciated! I do have some information on the whole "wishy-washy" claims. So, I need information about the first 3/4's of her message, thank you!

Jessica

TO JFK's website. You will be able to refute this BS easily......learn, grasshopper, or get eaten by a crow or a close relative.

I have spent the last 3 hours typing a email to her. As of now, it comes out to about 15 pages on Microsoft Word! So, my brain is fried and I need help! I had never heard this burning the flag accusation, or volunteering to go on a swift boat that was supposed to be a non-combat boat.

HELP!
Jessica

yeah.

that Kerry sent to the Navy regarding him being put aboard a swift boat in their sig line. It says he requested duty aboard a swift boat in Vietnam. I think the DUers name is trumad but I'm not sure.

Burning the American flag?!?!?!

Ask him to find a REPUTABLE source to confirm either of these things. SBVT and right-wing websites don't count.

He won't be able to do it because neither is true.

are simply incorrect. There is no way to defend yourself or anyone else from an attack that is nothing but incorrect statements of fact (lies) from someone who is willing to adapt those stories at the drop of the proverbial hat to continue the attack.
Starting with an irrefutable set of facts, such as a description of the valor and courage required by John Kerry to come back from war and take up another war, even more unpopular than the war he had been fighting, make your own fight. People did not want to hear the truth then, just as today, that their leaders had perpetrated a huge set of lies-foisted on a gullible and unsuspecting public-and they resisted having their collective noses rubbed in it. If you do any reading of folks who have stupidly been caught up in some pyramid or other questionable scheme, you find, almost invariably, the very victims, themselves will still defend the perpetrators. Fundamental human failure at all levels of societal or intellectual scale.

The quickest method of conversion for "true believers" has to be emotional.Don't defend against an idiotic attack. Even though you can see the oh-so-terribly-obvious holes in your friend's beliefs, rest assured they can't-even, or perhaps especially, if you point them out! The reason that candidates give impassioned speeches is-they work! They don't work because of being well-reasoned, thoughtful, truthful and valuable, they work because, and when, they are impassioned. The biggest reasons why this campaign is so damnably difficult to win, when it is so patently obvious that we have the vastly superior candidate, is that Kerry is not, as a rule, a hot, flaming speaker.

People keep saying, in spite of all the books, the web sites, the interviews, the convention, etc. that they just don't know John, or that they don't understand his position on something or other, and the temptation is so strong to turn to the offending asshole and tell them if they are too stupid to read or listen to the absolute reams of information available to them everywhere they look, then they deserve to be ruled by the jerks in charge and be drafted and killed in a war, and on and on. Why don't they read all the crap? It has no emotional appeal.

Laughing boy Bush and his evil minions have an easy time of it because they always appeal to your emotions:
They'll say: "well, what do you expect for a senator from Massachusetts?
Makes no logical sense, but it is an evil little unstated slur and people laugh. This is an emotional twist, and they remember.

The whole bit with Cheney's appeal to our fear-if you elect Kerry/Edwards, you're gonna die-is an illustration of the same shit. AND IT WORKS!!

The whole, sad history of our battle against the greatest evil of our time is illuminated when one re-examines the war on these terms. I hope this helps. If you need more, kick it back and we all can work on it. T'would be very educational.

on edit:
To get some ideas for the emotional/logical argument to refute the lies, re-imagine John Kerry's accetpance speech or Barack Obama's speech and feel the raw power and appeal of each. Then get a transcript of each and read it. Notice the difference? This is the way arguments, or elections, are won!

BULLSHIT! FUCK OFF!

Bahahahahaha Where the hell did that come from?

He never burned a flag.

I can;t read therough the whole thing -- I am laughing to hard. Where did your friend get this information, from a cereal box?

ask her if she has any ideas of her own, other than those pushed on the junkies' show. she's just barfing up fox news headlines....ask her for her reputable sources, not rush, not faux news....she wont have them because she's spewing lies.

I am glad I didn't post the whole email, it was horrible. I was so mad when I read it, I got right to work.

She is incredibly naive. After I informed her of the Bush family connections to the Saudi Royal Family she said she was going to write to the White House and to get "their" side. Geez.

At least she is open to discussing the candidates!

Jessica

and that she really needs to do some research before she starts sending out letters devoid of fact.

They did not build swift boats to be non-combat -- what would one do with a non-combat swift boat in a combat zone? Fish? Waterski?

Kerry never burned a flag.

Kerry was not associated with Jane Fonda.

Kerry was not responsible for the shoddy treatment soldiers got coming home from Vietnam.

Kerry did not vote for a awar in Iraq. He voted to enable the president to use military force if it was required. The difference in the Bush spin and the facts can be easily seen by simply reading the text of autorization.

I think the only fact in the letter is the part that said Kerry enlisted.

She should be ashamed for sending out fiction as truth without even the slightest effort to determine if or if not the crap she was sending was fiction.

if she is a hardcore freeper, it's probably a no-win proposition arguing with her. That said:

Remind her that those on the boat with John Kerry, except for Steve Gardner, support him. I've met Jim Wasser. He's not only NOT getting paid, he's taking a loss to campaign for John Kerry. He believes that strongly. When he comes into Wisconsin, he has to bunk with the Veterans for Kerry coordinator.

The 250 are mostly miffed about the 1971 testimony. That's what the quote provided for several of them indicate. It's not his service, but the testimony that motivated most of these attacks.

Remind her that John O'Neill was a Nixon attack dog who was wheeled out again this time by the party to counter Kerry's strong point.

And the founder, Roy Hoffman, supported Kerry in 1996. It was the biography, Tour of Duty, that set Hoffman off. He was called a classic body count guy in that book. And between 1996 and now, the revelation that Bob Kerrey participated in an atrocity very similar to what John Kerry was talking about was brought out (in 2001). Hoffman was the commanding officer, and some have said it was that body count mentality of his that helped lead to the atmosphere where such things as My Lai could happen. Truth hurts, eh Roy?

Why hasn't Kerry bled enough for these people when their own guy didn't bleed at all. It doesn't matter that the Swift boats weren't seeing much action when he signed up for them. He was there. They just don't know what a rich boy vet looks like. There are so few, you see.

Ask her what her guy is doing for veterans now.

Tell her to look at the photos of Abu Ghraib, then go read Kerry's testimony IN FULL, and see if she sees a correlation.

I've never seen a picture where John Kerry burned a flag. Tell her to prove it. He supports a man's right to burn the flag, and he also supports his own right to pound that person into the ground if he catches them doing it. Consequences for one's actions doncha know.

How is Joseph Darby, the Abu whistleblower any different from Kerry. They're the same in my book.

Remind her that people like Rood, with no connection to either campaign, came out and supported Kerry's version. I've seen testimony from both a North Vietnamese and a South Vietnamese saying that Kerry's war was theirs too.

Just yesterday, there was an article in the USA Today that talked about how memory is a weird thing, and that two people can have very different memories about something, swear they are right, and be dead wrong on some details. Kerry is a 60 year old man trying to remember stuff that happened when he was 27. Give him a break.

Or just tell her, "Oh that was so August. The new subject is where Bush was in 72. Git with the program, gal."

How's that?

THAT WAS GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!:bounce:

If you value the friendship, chalk it up to 'we agree to disagree'. There is nothing you can 'win' in this debate other than a bruised friendship -- believe me, it happened to me last year in the run-up to Iraq. It can quickly get ugly... just don't go there. You are not going to change their mind just as they are not going to change yours.

It's not like you're going to win a vote for Kerry or something. And it really is old news.

You could suggest that either you don't talk politics for the good of the friendship, or that you talk about current issues instead of past ones.

Respond and do it often. If she can't handle what you are telling her then she is not your friend anyway. Don't be a fucking wimp as neoplaque would have you be. Too much is at stake here.

those around you that have the capacity to think for themselves.

I don't expect her to vote for Kerry. And eventhough her head is full of lies, she is still open to discussing the issues.

I just sent her a 20 page rebuttle paper, we shall see what happens next, and how open she is afterwards, HA!

Jessica

There are many many many fence-squaters and non-voters who need to hear from you. Your friend is not going to change their mind. They wrote you that rambling email not because they are confused and seeking advice-- they are trying to convince you that JK is the wrong guy for the job.

I stopped having political debates with freeper friends months ago because I realized all they were doing was consuming my time/energy and keeping me from using the same to actually campaign to the masses who are looking for a reason to vote for Kerry.

The hard part is coming to understand that your friend has a different opinion on something you are so passionate about. It actually "hurts" you because you find it difficult to comprehend that your friend can't see what you believe should be obvious. Wasting your time debating freeper friends is just not healthy and certainly doesn't help your friendship nor the Kerry campaign.

Again, I suggest you drop it. We need you fighting for Kerry where it matters.. not arguing with your friends who aren't going to change.

Your love for your friend is so clear in your need to be understood by her.
Let's hope she cares even half as much for you as you obviously do for her!

I do love my friend and I know she loves me. The time I spent writing the emails will have been worth it. I was re-educated on many issues, and educated on issues/allegations that were new to me. I guess I am too stubborn to give up so easily. If nothing else, I have placed questions in her mind, and that is enough.

Thank you for your comments though, I do appreciate them and I appreciate the advice. Believe you me, we will not spend much more time writing emails back and forth on the issues, we have already covered so much.

Jessica

You are a precious light in the world.

keep us updated.

20 pages? Jeez!

Ok, had two messages in my mailbox. One from this friend and one from her husband. The one from her is Ann Coulter's, "God Bless Ann Coulter." I know I know....<sigh>

I emailed her back and basically told her that if she is going to rely on Ann Coulter to get information on John Kerry, then I would prefer to not talk with her any longer.

Ironically enough, her husbands email was full of statements like, "you should get your information on Republicans from actual Republicans, like Hannity and Rush." I almost peed my pants, I was so annoyed. Freaking hypocrites.

So, the drama continues.

Jessica

Are the sources who they trust.... and now they are 'tag-teaming' you in email. (shakes head sadly) Hopefully you will take my advice sooner rather than later... I respect what you're trying to do but it's a futile task.

"you should get your information on Republicans from actual Republicans, like Hannity and Rush."

Dear Mr. Freephead,

You should get your information on Democrats from actual Democrats.

You should get your information on John Kerry from John Kerry.

But you don't. Why is that? Is it a matter of trust?

Only a true fool would trust media clowns like Simple Hannity or Oxycontin Limbaugh to tell them the straight truth on anything.

Sincerely hoping you wake the hell up,
Jessicazi

Sometimes it's a lost cause.

when someone says they're republican or, even slimier, a freeper, they're stating that they agree with a certain set of values.

those values are unamerican, anti-democracy, and unhealthy. look at what freepers do. look at how they act. look at what they say. they're not good people and not good for this country.

you could probably do better in the friend department.

First of all, I'd ask this person for links to many of these claims:

The non-combat boat claim
The flag burning claim

Then I'd correct this person's misperceptions (this isn't exhaustive...take these things and do some research. I don't have time to do all the legwork):

The SBVT are indeed linked to the Bush campaign, which is why at least one person has had to resign from the campaign. Bob J. Perry in Houston is the guy financing the group and has strong links to Bush as well.

So what if Bush denounces "demoralizing campaigning". It's a fact that his guy Karl Rove is one of the dirtiest campaigners in US history. Do some homework on him.

Then I'd go on the attack:

"The Democrats" have every right to challenge the veracity of the SBVT claims. Here's a site that gives good debunking material: http://swiftvets.eriposte.com/kerrypurpleheart1.htm

You could also point out how the Bush family used its power to stop publication of Fortunate Son, and how the Bush campaign values free speech so much they only allow Bush supporters into their rallies.

Kerry came back from Vietnam and protested the war for a damn good reason: the war was wrong and unjust. Send your friend Kerry's testimony of the Winter Soldier investigation. If you or your friend don't know what this investigation was, do some research on it.

http://www.evergreenreview.com/107/kerry/kerry2.html

Regarding the last part of the email: personally I disagreed with Kerry's IWR vote, but an argument can be made that Bush's bases for invading Iraq was a complete lie and that Bush lied to Congress when he said he'd build a coalition and work through the UN and that he'd work closely with Congress before invading. You could end by saying that Bush has indeed "fucked up" in Iraq, as Kerry said in the Rolling Stone interview. A large section of the country is in rebel hands and then there's that intelligence report that says experts believe the country will be embroiled in civil war by the end of next year.

she's too stupid to be your friend.

Makes the Nazi party blush.

Truly incredible.

I wish you luck - her email is so FILLED with lies (not created by her) that it's hard to imagine where to begin.

If your friend has kids 16-32 years of age, as a last resort, you might want to let her know that her kids will be drafted in about 1-2 years. Then she can love war all she wants as one of her kids dies for this CRAP.

I wish you luck.

He didn't have to do it at all. Or he could have stayed on the U.S.S. Gridley.

the SBliars4T. Also one from the New York Times.

If it wasn'r for the people standing up and rotesting - how many more would have died??

Kerry didn't vote against the 60 Billion - it was a lock, voted no in protest of * not rolling back tax cuts in a time of war. Also * sent the troops there without body armor. Now he cuts their benefits as VA's.

Don't mistake strong leadership pushing failed policies down peoples throats. Iraq is a mess, * needs to change his position on it.

She states a lot of criticisms, but I don't see ANY sources. Just vague references. "I don't want a president that is that wishy-washy. He changes his mind almost routinly about issues, and acts as though he's always stood for the issue."

remind her to Vote November 3. ;)


-Peace

when friends you thought you knew wake up all freeped out. I lost a couple of friends the same way. It still bothers me that I couldn't get through to them sometimes, but, I had to walk away before much worse was said. These were long time friends too. I even had an all out argument with my sis-in-law after an email. But alas, the propaganda continues.

I wish you luck and if you find yourself blowing up, it's time to part ways, as sad as that is.