Speaking of do-over's, how about one for Ohio?

...Hillary complimenting McCain, Bill marginalizing Obama by calling him a possibly good VP candidate.

for trying to sway the Obama votes to Hillary by implying that she is going to have him on the ticket. I want Obama to use his powerful speaking style and call Bill on the carpet for trying to marginalize him.

You know what, they are spending all the political capital they have to railroad Barack, it took them decades to earn what they have, but it is theirs to use and shred the party if they choose.

Beholden Bill Clinton, the Lord of Darkness during our finest hour.

There is always light at the end of the tunnel, sometimes the tunnel is longer...

another train.

Keep the faith, Max. You and I seem to agree on almost everything.

belt, and know how to close the sale.

I will sit back and watch as the Ohio Democratic Party looks the other way. My guess is that they will have little to no comment on the crossover vote.

After all, with Strickland et al, in Hillary's camp, all they can say is "Ohio spoke".......but what Ohio had to say just might set us back another 50 years.

I am disgusted and very disheartened.

At least one member of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections wants to investigate some Republicans who may have crossed party lines only to influence which Democrat would face John McCain in November.

Anyone who crossed lines was supposed to sign a pledge card vowing allegiance to their new party. In Cuyahoga County, dozens and dozens of Republicans scribbled addendums onto their pledges as new Democrats.

"For one day only."

"I don't believe in abortion."

A Plain Dealer review of thousands of records showed few of those who switched were challenged by poll workers.

Sandy McNair, a Democratic member of the Cuyahoga County Board of Elections, said Friday that the manipulation of the system was troublesome.

"It's something that concerns me, that I think needs to be looked at further," McNair said. "This is not a structural thing by the Republican Party. If it's a problem at all, it's on an individual level."

Lying on the pledge is a felony, punishable by six to 12 months in jail and a $2,500 fine.

Those repukes who crossed the line should be investigated and JAILED.
Voter fraud!

As unhappy as I am about Barack losing Texas (it is believed Hillary would have picked Ohio regardless of the fraudulent crossovers), the crossovers played within the rules.

You can't enforce a moral commitment, this is a structural fault of Ohio having an open primary and not requiring adequate proof of loyalty to your new party.

For eg. if the rule were, you can sign a pledge card to get a ballot from your new party at the next election, no one would bother with a crossover unless they were a chronic troublemaker :-)

She won Ohio because of :

- strong support from within the state Dem party
- the negative attack ADs
- Bill / Ted / Frances / John Glenn / Chelsea / Hillary vigourously campaigning for her

I don't fault those who beat the system, because they expose weaknesses in the system.

There were trouble makers who came to the polls to vote in the Democratic Party Primary. One person (registered Rethug) was stupid enough to declare his intentions before asking for a ballot at the polling place were I worked and he did not vote in the Democratic Party primary because I challenged him and he then requested a Rethug ballot. I would have given him a Democratic Party ballot if he insisted but his name would have gone to the BoE and hopefully to the County Prosecutor, not that the Prosecutor, who is a Rethug, would have done anything about it.

There were some other Rethugs who switched their political party and we polling judges felt there was intended malice from their demeanor but if they don't say anything there is no recourse but to give them a Democratic Party primary ballot. In all fairness though most of the crossover voters were genuinely disgusted with the Rethug party and want change. To see this in Warren County gave me some pleasure because it is such a rare event.

pledge cards. See my post #34 below for more details.

I also think if one changes party affiliation at the polling station without signing a pledge card, as in Warren County, the voter is still under the same obligation as if they did sign a pledge card, at least that what I hope is the situation.

Here in SW Ohio the Rethugs are dismissing the voter fraud issue altogether. There was an article in the Cincinnati Enquirer where one Rethug admitted to voting for Clinton because he thought she was the weaker candidate and did not want McSame to face Obama in the GE. I think this clearly crossed the line for voter fraud but I seriously doubt anything will be done to the person. It will take the Ohio SOS and Ohio AG to intervene down here.

which we required every cross-over voter to read and sign. That form stated the voter was changing political parties of his/her own accord.

They checked the box for the party they wanted to vote and that was that. And no pledges.

I voted Republican in the last primary (I knew Blackwell couldn't beat Strickland), but Independent this year (issues only) so I can't condemn cross-overs that much.

This primary has been skewed right from the start in my opinion.

Obama's campaign asked Republicans to become "Obamacrats for a day" and vote for him in the primary telling them that they could then, in November, vote Republican. They just wanted that primary vote or caucus vote. You can Google it.

The Stop Hillary Express was begun in 2007 to oust Hillary, and Sean Hannity among others was encouraging Republicans to cross over and vote for Obama to oust Hillary. They did, and you can even get a bumper sticker to support 'the movement'. You can Google that, too.

If this primary election doesn't force immediate primary election reform, I don't know what will.

And I really wish Senator Obama would have done this. It might have made a difference:

'Obama's first action in the Senate was to decline to be the Senate co-sponsor of a move to question Ohio's Electoral College votes following the 2004 presidential election. He then voted against the resolution.'

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Barack_Obama

http://www.jjraymond.com/political/2005/obama012005.html

his name this way but doesn't give a middle name for Sen. Clinton.

Hmmm . . .

To not be able to cite a link which has a decent amount of composite information because his chosen middle name is on there is wrong. And I think if he were standing right here, he'd say go ahead and read the information so he could answer the question. I believe he would understand that I was looking for more information on what was cited. I was never, ever slurring his name; not to mention I certainly didn't bring it to the forefront in caps for emphasis.

I won't post again.

wondering about the validity of your link. I thought it was odd that the blogger used Obama's middle name and not Hillary's, that's all.

Certainly not reason enough to prevent you from posting again. Please do.

as well.

We discussed this issue in MeDeMax's "hope" post but maybe it needs to be discussed again.

At the poll in which I worked, we challenged EVERY cross-over voter and made sure they understood they'd be listed as a Dem for the next four years.

One of the scariest things I've read was that in really-really-RED Greene Co. Dem 16,000 votes were cast for president ONLY. No votes for other candidates or issues. (Again, reference Max's post for my links.)

This stinks, positively stinks.

In Greene county 26,115 Dem votes for pres, 19,264 Dem votes for US House.

That's only 6,851 undervotes, not 16,000. The Greene county vote makes up about 1/4 of the votes cast in that district. The Greene county undervote is roughly 1/4 of the undervotes in the district.

The 16,000 must be a typo, or flat out false.

The 48% undervote in District 1 seems high along with District 8.

District 10, Kucinich's district is the best evidence of a crossover scheme.

Tubbs-Jones getting only 76% of the presidential ballots instead of the 86% she got in 04 is somewhat troubling, although I'm sure her seat is safe.

I only checked House and Pres votes. Perhaps local races show something much different.

To think that Rush Limbaugh controls the Democratic Primary process, instead of looking at the huge jump in turnout as a confirmation of Democratic ideas, is absurd. Turn the TV off.

Peace

From a previous post:

And in the Republican stronghold of Greene Co. it was the same. (Think Wright-Patterson Air Force base and lots of conservatives.)

This article in the "Dayton Daily News" confirms what we heard, Democrats outdrew Republicans in Greene for the first time since the 1930s.

snip ...

The large number of Democratic ballots surprised Marilyn Reed, chair of the county GOP but she noted that only 16,000 voted in the contested Democratic county commission race. "That tells me some people were only interested in the presidential race," she said.

snip ...

Link:
http://tinyurl.com/2bvosn

My guess is that many GOP county chairs across the country are thinking the same thing.

Are the new voters, I's, and many R's moving away from the GOP? Or as this chair believes, the only interest is in the Presidential primary(the Limbaugh BS), and she can count on her GOPers to come back in NOV.

She cites a Co. Commission race, that "tells" her she need not be concerned. I think that she is in denial.

First off, since the primary is open, Ohio voters had the chance to vote for Obama, Clinton,(DK and Edwards) or one of the inmates at ward C of the psychiatric facility. 2/3 went the Obama, Clinton route.

Secondly, if you were a voter in a very RED area, especially a GOPer, this might have been the first time that you had stepped out of the darkness for a while. I'd bet a dime to a dollar that you had NEVER even heard of the Dem county commissioner candidates. No lit, no calls, nothing. Ergo, no vote. Simple.

Funny thing, on the GOP ballot the undervotes for Co. Commissioner were somewhat comparable.

I think there is a REAL trend here, and I give Limbaugh ZERO credit.

Peace

or they can go to their County BoE at anytime after the primary and change their party affiliation.

and here in Ohio that won't happen for four years. At least that's what our presiding judge learned in training.

Sorry, rexcat -- I'm really not trying to nit-pick with you.

:D

that would be the next partisan primary year statewide.

There could be local primaries for Judges in 2009 & 2011 that allows voters to change parties.

during that election we won't be asked to choose from a field of Dems who want to run for Governor. We'll have both Dems and Repubs on the ballot and won't have to declare our party to vote.

Ya know, I may be wrong about this, but that's how our presiding judge explained it to us. And, although I hate to admit it since he was a Repub, he was savvy and fair.

:shrug:

I think in all even numbered years, we will have a Primary.

(my feeble attempt to keep an eye on those Diebold machines) and this was the first time we "encoded" ballots as either Dem or Rep.

Max, you know I love you, but I distinctly remember the pleasure I got by voting against DeWine and Blackwell.

I've searched the SOS site and can't find any documented information.

I guess it doesn't really matter, but as smart as we folks are here in the Ohio forum, we should know this stuff.

Tomorrow, I'll call a Government teacher I know and see what he says.

(no edit, subject line typo)
We had a primary election on May 2nd 2006, it was Petro vs Blackwell and Dewine did not have a primary opponent, you had to take a D, R or issue-only ballot here :

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/ElectionsVoter/results2006.aspx?Section=1682

We had the general election on Nov 7th 2006, it was Blackwell vs Strickland and Brown vs Dewine, everyone got the same ballot regardless of party affiliation :

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/ElectionsVoter/results2006.aspx?Section=1839

All 2006 elections :

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/ElectionsVoter/results2006.aspx

(and I hope you know I love you and your company)

You're correct; I'm wrong. And that stupid presiding judge I worked with was wrong, too. That's what I get for listening to a Repub. Shoulda known better; he lied to the voters -- surprised??

I heard from that Government teacher, and he ought to know -- he's been voted Ohio's Social Studies Teacher of the Year several times.

Here's his message:

Glad to help. Ohio has closed or partisan primaries every two years. The election cycle runs this way: National, state and county elections are held in even numbered years. To vote in the spring primary, you must verbally declare a party ballot. The purpose behind closes primaries is to allow the party faithful to nominate a candidate. A 17 year old may vote in the primary if they will be 18 on or before the general election because they are not electing, but simply nominating. In the odd numbered years, city government officials are elected. Now Dayton will have a closed primary for city council since their city council and mayor run with party labels. Some city elections do not have closed primaries if they run as nonpartisan candidates like West Carrollton.

Let me know if you need any further information.


I hate it when I act like the blonde I am.

:P

(my poor imitation of the house & senate speaking style :-) )

it is two years. Here in Warren County we have at a Rethug primary almost every year. That has to do with the city of Mason having primaries every two years plus every two years there are US Congressional races. As long as we have lived in Mason no Democrats have run for city positions so our primaries have been sparse. The Mason elections are opposite years as the Congressional races. I think your presiding judge is incorrect.

And that's what I get for listening to a Repub presiding judge; he lied to the voters! Imagine that.

Here's the message I received from my favorite Government teacher who has earned his title of Ohio's Social Studies Teacher of the Year:

Glad to help. Ohio has closed or partisan primaries every two years. The election cycle runs this way: National, state and county elections are held in even numbered years. To vote in the spring primary, you must verbally declare a party ballot. The purpose behind closes primaries is to allow the party faithful to nominate a candidate. A 17 year old may vote in the primary if they will be 18 on or before the general election because they are not electing, but simply nominating. In the odd numbered years, city government officials are elected. Now Dayton will have a closed primary for city council since their city council and mayor run with party labels. Some city elections do not have closed primaries if they run as nonpartisan candidates like West Carrollton.


I hate it when I act like the blonde I am.

I would file a complaint to the BoE concerning the presiding judge. It is not right to give out false information to voters. It is just not right. On the other hand I am a trouble maker and want to make the life of rethugs as miserable as I can in retribution to what they have done to this country the past 7+ years and what they have done to Ohio for the past 16 years prior to January 2007.

I went to the store this morning and as I was driving,thought about that issue. It is so ironic that you posted it.

There is another issue that has been on my mind.

I know the racist comments that many of us encountered have us all feeling very frustrated and disappointed. But, I saw people that have made racist comments in the past vote for Obama, wear Obama buttons and talk about how he is the best candidate for President they have seen in a long time. I think this is because it is the way they grew up, and they make these comments or say these things and go unchallenged. But they don't really think about it and they don't really, truly dislike anyone based on skin color.

So, what happened? Hillary dominated the media. We just didn't see enough of Obama. The Clinton campaign threw everything at him and as a result, that is what we saw on the news and in the papers, it was all Hillary all the time in the few days leading up to Tuesday. Strickland even admitted that he went to the same area as Barack to try and block some of his media. So, Obama's message didn't get out effectively enough.

People might have issues with race, but they lose them pretty fast once they get to know someone. (For most people that I know. - I know there are some people that you can't change) Anyway, this is what I've been thinking about. I was so sad to think about some of the comments, But I'm starting to think that it isn't really what is in their hearts. They just didn't get the chance to see and hear Obama enough and went to a safe place and voted name recognized Clinton.

that people behave reasonably come crunch time.

I have a friend that grew up in a very racist home, her parents had three rules when they were teenagers:

NO kids,
NO cops,
NO ni**ers

Meaning, don't get pregnant, don't get caught doing something illegal, don't date black guys.

When she was in her 20s they had many fights in that house and eventually her parents eased up and began to change.

I will rely on her judgment on this matter.

I was a poll worker in Warren County and the crossover vote was exceptional. I do believe, after discussing it with some people that I know who crossed over that some voters were legitimate but there were too many that were smirky about the whole process. There was one individual who came to the precinct and stated that he wanted to screw up the Democratic Primary as a republican and vote in the Democratic Party primary. I gently reminded him at that point that if he voted in the Democratic Party primary we would pass his name on to the BoE and they in turn would pass his name on to the County Prosecutor because it is unlawful to interfere with an election. He decided on a republican ballot. He did return to the polling place several hours later and give me a hard time but left after I told him I felt "threatened." He called the BoE three times and demanded to be able to vote in the Democratic Party primary but they said no and that I was correct in how it was handled. Mind you this is Warren County.

The other thing I did when I got home was to review the Ohio Revised Code 3513.19 and per the law I was correct in what I did. The only problem I have now is the training I received at the Warren County BoE several weeks ago was inadequate. They did not review the law and stated that we should not challenge anyone who was a crossover voter. The information they gave us was incorrect. I have contacted a lawyer who is a member of the Executive Committee of the Warren County Democratic Party of which I am also on the committee and now a precinct captain so more discussion will come about concerning the primary.

this election.

Before the November election, I REQUESTED training and was scheduled for a class, but not this time.

I read somewhere (sorry, no link) that poll-worker training is being encouraged by Jennifer Brunner.

BTW -- how ya doin' Rexcat? Glad you're back.

I never went away.

Perhaps you should preemptively write a letter to the editor, before the Nov election, that warns the safety director and the other clowns that moved ballot counting behind closed doors, citing homeland security concerns, that what they did on Nov 2nd was unconstitutional and illegal.

The South & Young families act like they are the law in that county.

what the safety director of Warren County did in 2004 was stupid but the vote tallies were not altered. I know several Democrats who work at the Warren County BoE and the results in 2004 were valid, much to my disappointment. In fact Kerry did better than expected in Warren County.

My main concern now is the total lack of respect we Democrats get from hardcore rethugs in the county. They are rude and down right nasty to us. What we need to do in Warren County as Democrats is to get out and run for office but with the demographics of the county it will be some time before we can make any headway. We Democrats are now about 25% of the population in the County. That is up from 12% 20 years ago. Hopefully we are on an exponential curve and not a linear curve!

Remember these names ?

delay, hasstert, frist, taft, spitzer, cheney (libby via proxy)

At one time they were invincible, now none of them have a prayer of getting elected precinct captains.

Winning is often about selling your opponents negatives, remember Lamont unseating Lieberman because of his support for the war ?

So don't worry about the size of the registered dems, in a RED county where Rs win anyway, many R voters are tired of re-electing the same bozos, they will opt for change if the challenger can make her/his case.

The precinct that I live in increased by 300% for Dem voters in the primary but that still only accounts for 20% of the registered voters in the precinct (100/500), but it is a start. The question that begs an answer is how many of these crossover voters will stay with the Democratic Party. I will be canvasing the precinct soon and will have some answers. In fact the Warren County Democratic Party will be canvasing all of the precincts to see what the real story is. We will see how many of these crossover voters truly are interested in the Democratic candidates and those who wanted to vote for what they thought was the "weakest" candidate (i.e., interfering in a primary election).

For those crossover voters who are not committed to the Democratic Party, they could be considered in violating of the law, as in voter fraud, but that would be nearly impossible to prove. There could be some interesting conversations with these voters as I explain the Ohio Revised Code to them.

Either you enforce the law, or you don't. Either you see it as a pain-in-the-ass "loyalty test," or you see it as a way to keep some integrity in the election process. The state needs to decide. There's too much at stake anymore for people to play games with their votes -- especially if they come in making no bones about wanting to screw the opposition.

When you see normally rock-solid GOP counties like Greene and Warren going Dem one time only, that is a sign in and of itself that the primary system needs to be revisited.

Also, I was just stumbling around the Cleveland Plain Dealer site just now and came across this poll:

Question(paraphrased):
Who would you vote for?
Obama -- 59.1%
McCain -- 40.9%

HRC -- 41.2%
McCain -- 58.8%

What more proof do you need that something's messed up here? (That, not to mention Greene County voting heavily Democratic this year.)

(from a previous post)

More of the same in Butler Co. (Blue collar workers, some rural areas)

Butler County turns blue: More Democrats fill out ballots than Republicans.

snip ...

"Usually Republicans outnumber Democrats by 2 to 1," in the county, said Betty McGary, elections board director. "We won't know exactly how many switched over until we are able to certify results as official."

snip ...

Of the ballots requested Tuesday, March 4, 48,991 were for Democrat, and 39,747 for Republican, according to the elections board.

Before the primary, there were 45,711 registered Republicans and 21,640 Democrats.

snip ...

Link:
http://tinyurl.com/2ybrrj

Do you think that many people saw the light?

I'm getting confused. I was under the impression that Ohio currently has a CLOSED primary, which means it's closed to members of each party.

If a person wants to change their affiliation, they may do so by declaring their choice at voting time and will then be given that party's ballot. They will be considered members of that party for the next four years, until the next primary election. Independent voters may choose either ballot.

Link here for definition:

http://www.bartleby.com/59/14/closedprimar.html

Set me on the straight and narrow path, please.

:eyes:

depending on how you see it. A voter may change their party affiliation at the polling place on the day of the election. Some counties require the person to sign a loyalty oath to the party that they are changing too but not all counties require this. Warren County is one that does not have a loyalty oath to sign when a voter changes parties. minimally I would like to see the loyalty oaths be required in Warren County and state-wide. The training I received for this election went counter to the Ohio Revised Code. We were told that we could not challenge voters when they requested a primary ballot for the other party (i.e., republican voting in the Democratic Party primary). I have verbally stated my dismay to this situation to the Director of the BoE for Warren County. I plan on contacting Jennifer Brunner's office as soon as possible.

If someone is truly and independent they should not be voting in the republican or Democratic Party primaries. What is the purpose of being an independent if one is voting as a Democrat or republican. If an "independent" votes in either party's primary they in affect become members of that party, at least in Ohio. In a truly closed primary one selects a party at the initial registration with the BoE or fills out another voter registration card and changes party affiliation.

...so that they can test the winds and then vote accordingly. I think having them sign a loyalty oath is in no way out of line. You cannot have it both ways anymore. That is just playing games with the process and should be illegal, and all poll workers should be educated on the law and how to enforce it.

Note to Independents: Pick a side. If you cannot, and you claim to be Independent, then stay home until November. The primary process in Ohio, and many Ohio voters who HAVE declared an affiliation, will thank you for it.

Please keep us posted on what progress you make, both in Warren County and with Brunner.

I'm curious: Has there always been a reticence to challenge voters? What do/can you challenge them on, besides party affiliation and place of residency?

stated that he wanted to screw up the Democratic Party Primary and vote for Clinton (almost a direct quote) and it is unlawful to "interfere" in a primary election. I think he was listening to Limpball or Cunningham (WLW, Cincinnati) because they told their listeners to vote in the Democratic Party primary and vote for Clinton because the recent polling but McSame ahead of Clinton in the general election.

What the hell was that stupid talking about?

And, she's proud to be a cross-over voter -- proud to be part of what the Repubs are calling "The Plot."

Douchebag, indeed.