Senator Voinovich SERIOUSLY out of touch with Ohio's needs.

God almighty. How is someone THIS out of the loop of life qualified to make an opinion about what's good for the economy of one of the hardest hit (and REMAINS one of the hardest hit) states of the * economic disaster? What an absolute IDIOT this guy is.

From the Cleveland PD

Washington- Sen. George Voinovich pledges to work vehemently against casino plans in Ohio, setting up a political showdown with the pro-gambling mayors of Cleveland and Lorain.

"If this thing raises its head, we're going to go out there and chop it off," Voinovich said in an interview Thursday. The Republican senator said he was "working with some other people" but would not name them or detail his plans.

Voinovich released a three-page letter he wrote to Cleveland Mayor Jane Campbell on Feb. 15, in which he said gambling destroys families, boosts crime and drains dollars that would otherwise be spent on cars, appliances and other goods. He wrote a nearly identical letter to Lorain Mayor Craig Foltin on Feb. 22.

The senator - a former Ohio governor and Cleveland mayor - cited a dramatic decline in the number of restaurants near casinos in Atlantic City between 1977 and 1987, and said "more money was spent on gambling than on all retail sales" in Mississippi in 1994.

But casino proponents said they could cite statistics that give a different view, some from the same studies Voinovich mentions. They say legalized gambling parlors, some of them resortlike, could bring badly needed revenue and jobs to their cities and stop the drain of money to neighboring states.

Siiiiiiigigggghhhh . . . and so on. I can't take it. He states later in the article that we should be concentrating on "university research, it's health care industry and its involvement in bioscience". Uh, spectacular, that includes about 5 to 15% of DEGREED individuals. What about the REST of the world that aren't qualified for such jobs? Where are you going to get jobs for them?? Are they just SOL in your precious "ownershit society"? Where's the revenue coming from? Manufacturing is no longer there to bail you out, and neither is steel. Ohio still has one of the highest unemployment rates in the nation. It's freezing climate, lack of forward thinking and overall genuflecting to the Christian Taliban drives young people out of, and keeps businesses away from, the state.

YOU NEED JOBS, ASSHOLE, and you need proven moneymakers to bring them in. Stop refuting facts to appease the American Taliban, George and step aside. You and your sorry ilk are impeding progress that this state so desperately needs.

I do agree that he is seriously out of touch with the reality here, esp NEO.

While I personally have concerns about gambling in general, including the state lottery system with its "odds are you will have fun" promotions.

It is irresponsible to talk like a high priest and custodian of the state's moral code without first addressing the serious concerns we face.

With the passage of the new bankruptcy bill more Ohio families, in fiscal crisis, will face more severe hardships resulting in a worsening social climate.

As other countries try and improve their social safety net, we are punching holes in ours.

It creates low-paying service-sector jobs -- unless the hotel and casino workers are unionized like they are in Las Vegas. But does anybody think that the people promoting casino gambling are hell-bent on hiring union workers?

Gotta go with George on this -- there's more bang for the buck in investing in education and research. Not all the jobs created require advanced degrees. A medium-sized medical research labortory hires scores of lab assistants and support personnel (nurses, accountants, custodial staff, etc.).

Gambling is a loser.

IMO is better than no job, besides they are shipping even those overseas.McDonald's is outsourcing drive thru jobs how much worse does it have to get. Republicans have raped this state and now their watching it bleed and wringing it's arm to squeeze every bit out of it. They must be stopped.

even some of my diehard repub friends/colleagues, who look like they will spontaneously combust at the mere mention of John Kerry's name, agree that the repubs have been a disaster for the state.

Whether or not the casino gambling passes I personally don't believe it will go very far in bailing our state out of its present misery.

The minute you decide that groveling for scraps is better that fighting for what's right and what's fair, you become part of the opposition. Their whole purpose is to keep 80% of Americans too poor and too disorganized to oppose their agenda, and accepted the shitty alternatives that they're dishing out only makes them stronger.

how do you fight a good fight if you're living on welfare and food stamps and don't have enough to eat or can't go the the dr. because medicare or medicaid won't pay for it. At least if you are working even if it's for little you have some dignity.Just because you're poor does not mean you are disorganized or stupid it means you're poor period. I agree we need better jobs and more oportunities for people to help themselves, but just because you work a minimun wage job doesn't mean you give up!!! YOU FIGHT HARDER!!!!

Living on food stamps and no medical benefits.

Simple Fact: Poor people are less likely to vote. I'm a Ward Chairman and my poorest precincts are the ones with the worst turnout. The most Republican precincts in my ward, the ones full of good Christians who support riverboat gambling (How Would Jesus Bet?) are the ones with 70% or more turnout in every election.

72 million Americans are paid hourly wages (and are directly or indirectly effected by the minimum wage) If those 72 million people would vote their economic interest, the Republicans would be only slightly less influential than the Natural Law Party.

is it better to live on food stamps and not work at all or have a minimum wage job and a little help from the gov't.I think I would prefer the latter.Poor people are less likely to vote because they need to be educated on the process, how better to learn than from co-workers who have other experiences, and break-room chit-chat, getting out and being involved makes you want to do better.

It's better to slave away at a poverty level wage than demand that your government start acting in the best interest of its people? The fact is that a large group of unemployed people create an "issue" that the government must address. Put those same people to work in crappy minimum wage jobs, and they're less likely to be politically active.

"Break-room chit-chat" aside, members of the working poor are only slightly more likely to vote than are college students. Why do you think they get to relentlessly and thoroughly screwed in this country? Politicians don't fear them -- and if they spread around enough shitty jobs, people will be just pacified enough to not throw them all out of Washington.

Seriously, I'd like suggestions for some peaceful solutions, but they pretty much own damned near everything. Corporations, congress, the presidency, the media, the military, the votes . . . we can yell our heads off and flood the streets and do whatever. It's not going to stop them. At all. Hope just appears to be dwindling by the day. CEOs, executives and other wealthy types are being just flat out more ruthless and greedier than shit, engaged in a contest of "whoever dies with the most wins" at the expense of the other 93% of the world. Witness proposed SS "reform". Witness the recent minimum wage failings. Witness the bankruptcy bill. Not that Horatio Alger ever existed in this country, but with increasing job offshoring and inshoring combined with these latest poor-raping tricks, they're pretty much creating a two-class society, driving down wages and laughing their asses off at us while doing so.

Joe Sixpack isn't going to invent his way out of this one as he did in the 80s. The training for higher-level careers is beyond the financial and often intellectual grasp of many. What do we tell these people? What happens when you DO train for a career (as many IT people did) and THAT gets swept offshore, effectively wasting all of your cash and time? I would like to know of a career existing that ISN'T a risk of either nowadays.

More taxation on the already heavily taxed?

The Auto, Steel and Manufacturing industries have long since taken their giant tax base and revenue elsewhere. I never EVER said I'm against investing in education, but have you SEEN Cleveland and Lorain lately? 2/3 of Euclid avenue is either out of business or going out of business. Plants lie dormant and dilapidated, creating an eyesore landscape. Every year, another auto plant, or another manufacturing plant either closes or lays off workers. Sticking another hospital, convention center or research facility simply isn't going to cut it. I guarantee you these cities need ALL the help they can get.

How many millions of dollars go out of state daily because of our backwards state's pandering to the American Taliban? Money that could go to help our schools, our roads, our police forces, our HOSPITALS? Not every casino job pays Wal-Mart wages. The revenue it brings far outweighs the social ills, which if you take a stroll through Cleveland, are there already.

a lot of vacant for-rent space in malls, strip malls and commercials areas.

Ditto for Elyria. The schools, malls, shopping centers, inner cities, parks, industries and neighborhoods are all in horrid shape. My dad used to work for USX/Kobe/Whoever Bought them out. He escaped just in time.

The Ohio Tax Code is like a friggin' swiss cheese -- it has so many loopholes only a certifiably insane accountant would have a corporation paying anything even close to the "published" corporate tax rates. And when we close those loopholes, we can take the funds to provide seed money for entrepreneurs (high tech or otherwise).

The Montana Legislative Council conducted a study last year that showed average income from casino workers is $9,600 per year, so you could say that Wal-Mart actually pays better than most casino's. And after you factor in the increased crime and the cost to the community from "chronic" gamblers, the community is losing money on the deal.

Ask yourself, "What does a casino do?" It simply siphons money from your household account (which could be used to purchase goods in your community and create actual manufacuturing jobs) and sends it to the account of a multi-national corporation, which leaves a pittance behind in tax revenue so that it can claim to be a good corporate neighbor.

Here's an alternative. Take one dollar in change. Give seventeen cents to the City of Cleveland and take the other eighty-three cents and throw it into Lake Erie. You will have then accurately replicated the economic effect of casino gambling in your community.

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that any labor union in Ohio would allow any casino to get away with paying their workers half the poverty rate. They wouldn't even get the build off the ground if that were the case.

"purchase goods in your community and create manufacturing jobs"? WHERE? No one manufactures anything here anymore and you know it. You'd only be helping tax-dodging multi-nationals going that route as well. Purchasing will still happen. With your hyperbolic example you make it sound like anyone who steps foot into a casino is a fiend in need of extended gambling rehab. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it it wouldn't help. You're not even looking at possible spillover effect to the civil services or the hundreds of millions it brings other cities in other states, particularly from tourists.

Kentucky and, I'm not sure if it's W. Virginia or Virginia that has legalized gambling, people will gamble if they want to.Besides IMO they don't want it here because it will take away from the gambling that is aloud, church bingo, monte carlo nights etc. Kinda of hypocritical don't ya think?

They'll be losing it to Kentucky, Maryland, West Virginia, Canada, Michigan and pretty soon Indiana (not sure if it's there or not). Yeah, as long as the CHURCHES are helped, that's quite alright.

And I would find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that you think Ohio unions are in any position to stop casino's from employing non-union workers. What with the General Assembly and the governor's office in the hands of anti-union and pro-corporate activitsts, it's all unions can do to maintain their current membership.

When I spend my money at a local business (whether it's manufactured goods or a pizza), the money is staying in the community. As for the tourist trade, do you honestly think that people are going to flock to Cleveland for its glitz and glamor? The simple fact is that most casino's like these are simply shifting local dollars around from one group to another. Vegas gets tourist dollars. Atlantic City gets tourist dollars. Euclid Avenue? Nuh-uh.

The other simple truth is that in states where riverboat or casino gambling has been legalized, the number of compulsive gamblers triples within one year. Gambling addicts typically lose tens of thousands of dollars before seeking treatment and many resort to crime to feed their habit. I find it simply amazing that some Democrats will decry the Bush Social Security plan for "gambling on the stock market" and in the same breath recommend slot machines as a tool of economic renewal.

I think the compelling reason for gambling is to keep dollars in-state, but what you posted gives me a reason to be against it.

Tons of research out there. The gaming industry remains conspicuously silent on the subject, which ought to be proof enough that they have no rebuttal -- it can't even be spun positively.

also because they are both compulsive, addictive habits, and the gov't just can't seem to get enough of our money from that.Oh and yes they do destroy lives just as much as gambling.

that if alcohol and tobacco weren't multi-billion industries pumping cash into legislators' campaign funds that they wouldn't be illegal? And do the American people really and truly need their government promoting yet another way to separate working people from their hard-earned cash?

without gov't. interference?

Not to mention, your analogy about comparing gambling to potential SS privitization is fallacious. Look at how much lotteries & casinos and revenues from them have revitalized schools and contributed to civil services and have added jobs to said cities. All privitization of SS helps is MNCs and the wealthy and takes away from monies being placed in that trust fund. Where's the spillover effect for SS privitization? Other forms of recreation around the area can spring up as a result of that - museums, parks, shopping centers, etc. This economy has long since proven that giving MNCs and their overseers money doesn't result in job creation or community aid - just more wars and monetary class division.

Also, SS isn't meant to BE a risk-based investment or used as such - it's insurance (something Repig administrations have long since gutted thanks to runaway spending), contributed to by taxpayers to have when they retire no matter WHAT. Gambling falls under the category of recreation and entertainment and shouldn't be considered anything else; how anyone can stick that under the same tent as something you contribute to for the purpose of having when you're older is beyond me. That's the same thing as relying on the lottery for a retirement nest egg.

And nobody is "recommending" slot machines as the "be-all, end-all" of revitalization . . . I'm saying that when just about everything that reliably gave you jobs before is suddenly leaving your areas for cheaper pastures, it's time to start thinking about ANYthing that will start building your community and giving you jobs. Whether that's entertainment, recreation, education, research, more public transportation, hospitals, alternative fuel sources, etc . . . you got to take the ball and RUN with it, not blow it off because of whatever problem you have with it.

A gambling addict is just that- an addict. You think not putting up a casino is going to stop them from feeding their need? There are more than several thousand online gambling sites in existance in the comfort of their own homes if they wanted to indulge. So I'm also not buying the argument about the number of addicts tripling around casino-allowed areas. It's not as if they were never there before the casino existed in the first place.

"Look at how much lotteries and casinos an revenues from them have revitalized schools..."
Let's look, shall we? After gambling revenue started coming in to Detroit, the State of Michigan changed its funding formula for cities (which in Michigan pretty much means "Detroit") so that the revenue from gambling was basically needed to replace the funding that was cut in Lansing. This bait-and-switch tactic has been used in Ohio, as well. Adopting a state lottery was supposed to boost funding for education, but the Ohio General Assembly instead decreased funding so that there was no financial benefit. Ask yourself this question: Would you enroll your kid in a Detroit public school?

"Nobody is recommending slot machines as the be-all and end-all of revitalization..."
State have limited funding. Very limited. They can pour resources into urban development for casino's (the sewer and power lines aren't going in by themselves), or they can create tax breaks for small businesses. In one of the few bright ideas Bob Taft ever had, he proposed a Third Frontier initiative which would set aside state funds for research and technical development. It was to be a three-way partnership between government, higher education, and private business. It was shot down by the same legislators who can't wait to lavish money on the gaming industry.

"A gambling addict is just that - an addict..."
So the government should take advantage of his addiction and actually promote industries that make his life more unbearable? And as far as your not "buying into" the argument that the number of addicts triple around casinos, I can't help you if you're determined to not see the facts. The number of Gamblers Anonymous meetings in Detroit increased by 400% in the five years since casinos have opened, and the number of Disassociated Persons (those banned for life from casinos because of gambling addictions) increased ten-fold during the same period.

All that being said, the damanage from casinos can be minimized.

- No tax abatement or give-aways to the casino operators. If they want to revitalize the neighborhood, let them do it on their own dime.

- Require secondary attactions. Hotels and ententainment venues at the casino create more construction jobs and leave more jobs behind. Also creates more economic development than slots alone.

- Require local ownership. MGM and Mandalay Bay can be junior partners, but the ownership of any casino in Ohio should be among Ohio investors, with sales of their interest only to other Ohio investors.

- Limit daily losses. This will probably keep most casino operators out of the state, because they count on people who don't know any better losing their shirts.

- Unionize all casino employees. Some of the indian casinos pay their dealers as little as $4 per hour.