Nude People In Town Center Could Prompt Ban

"August 21, 2006

"BRATTLEBORO, Vt. --Complaints about young people who spend time in downtown naked have prompted the Select Board to explore an anti-nudity ordinance.

"Groups of young people have been congregating in a downtown parking lot and enjoying the warm summer weather without clothing, and that bothers some local residents.

""A parking lot is not a strip club. It's a parking lot," resident Theresa Toney told the Select Board last week. She said she has seen repeated instances of naked people hanging out downtown.

--snip--

"News that the Select Board had asked Town Attorney Robert Fisher to research a possible local ordinance drew a protest of sorts Friday, as five young men gathered downtown and stripped their clothes off in protest."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2006/08/21/nude_people_in_town_center_could_prompt_ban/

"naked people hanging out downtown" :rofl:

It wouldn't be so hip then, but it would be a lot more funny.

.
this forum -- Vermont -- nobody ever posts anything. usually it's dead in here. haha.
.

forum. I do find it amusing though that this thread now accounts for 20% of all posts in the VT forum.

Who the hell cares? If someone doesn't care if they are naked, i certainly don't. nudity wasn't bad in the garden of eden, shouldn't be now. Of course, there's only a little time left before they will have to dress for winter. Love my hippy ass, birkenstock wearing, free-spirits. Love and Peace.

Would you like to have to walk your five year old daughter out past the group?

Or your 12 year old daughter?

the people are not having sex. I wish people would not worry so much about nudity and equating it with sex and making it into something shameful or dirty.

If the people were having sex in public, yes I would not want to walk me or my family past them. I don't know, nudity was never that big of a deal in my family and no one turned out to be weird. Well, too weird...

a young daughter. Especially if you have to pass close by such a group just to get to your car.

Or, as happened to me, if you find an adult male bare from the waist has taken over the kiddie pool and driven the kids away.

and frankly I don't plan on having kids. Like I said, I grew up where nudity was not that big of a deal, and to my knowledge my family has no sex offenders or axe murderers in it.

We were not nudists, but we weren't overly modest either. I still say that nudity is not a big deal until we make it one.

Yes, there are inappropriate places/times - I don't think teachers and priests should be naked in class/church, but maybe you could park somewhere else?

Any adult bare from the waist down in a kiddie pool
is a pervert who should be banned from the place.

I'd have called the cops in that situation, if the park employee wasn't handling it. Obviously, a man wading nude into the midst of children is different than nude adults who are simply quietly being nude and enjoying the sun.

around naked, but I grew up in a naked house. Nobody was big on clothes. Its the oddity that embarrasses. Most nudist's aren't perverts... they are foward enough to not care about their bodies. After all, the body is a temple to house the parts. What was good for Adam, Eve and God is good enough for me.

I certainly wouldn't be overly concerned. I would not deliberately take my son to a place I knew there would be adults walking around naked but I would not be overly bothered if we encountered people doing nothing but being naked.

I much more upset when we encounter people yelling or fighting.

place for that to be happening. :wow:

like Tennessee or Alabama or one of the other overly fundie states.

Here's what the police chief had to say:

"What's the harm?" Martin asked. "It's a problem to the extent that it bothers people, but we've always had it here."

Amazing!

My friends always told me I should go check it out, but now I know the real reason why.

Some people want to take a natural, non-offensive event and turn it into something dirty. If you are so uptight and twisted that the sight of another human offends you then get yourself some therapy - QUICKLY!

Or only slightly -- although the people who object to public nudity might also include that subset of humanity that objects to breastfeeding.

Nudity is a very strong statement, an in-your-face flouting of generally accepted behavior that has almost nothing in common with the very natural (not to mention necessary) act of breastfeeding.

Communal nudity has always been regulated in human cultures for reasons (as I said below) that are not irrational.

I wonder how many of these people have young children.

We all ran around naked at home until my kids reached their teens and started to feel embarrassed by it.
The kids learned that they should cover themselves out of the house so they didn't upset the people who didn't like nudity.

At the beach I still find a more secluded area so I can sunbake nude, and if kiddies run past, that's their bad luck if it bothers them.

The idea that having kids would make people suddenly see things properly, and of course that's the way you see things, is simply rediculous.

Some people may become much more conservative and ashamed of nudity when they have kids. That doesn't mean that nudity is wrong. It means that those people have developed a personal problem with nudity. That may be their choice, but that choice doesn't have any special moral weight. Nudity does not become some evil shameful thing just because some people say it is.

there is a time and place for everything and going downtown is the neither the time or place.

I, and I hope many more, see nudity as a natural state only to be covered in order to protect oneself from the elements or for decoration. Others, presumably yourself included, see it as something that should be restricted to certain areas and times.

If you look through history, it's only in the last few hundred years as Judeo-Christianity and Islam took hold over most of the world that nudity has become such a tremendous taboo. Many religions and cultures such as the Greeks and Romans actually found nudity something to be celebrated rather than condemned. Of course these cultures also had healthier views regarding sexual relations.

Lastly, I don't see how one can not see the comparisons between the breastfeeding controversy and other forms of public nudity. While those who oppose breastfeeding are certainly more extreme than most (I hope), they still fall within the group that finds nudity to be at least somewhat offensive. If I could ask, what harm does public nudity do? If someone is nude sunbathing in a public parking lot is that person guilty of some sort of disturbance, or would the onus fall on the person who views them and reacts negatively?

Might be upsetting to social order. And all flippancy aside, rather disturbing to parents and children. The near-universal strictures on where and when one can go naked are not entirely irrational.

thing. Europeans are much less uptight about nudity and I think that's much healthier.

How is being disturbed by a group of people who are doing nothing to bother you, aside from being nude, rational? It sounds pretty irrational to me.

a group of naked men in order to get to your car?

To me nudity in and of itself is simply natural. There is no evidence in this article that they were doing anything "offensive" aside from simply being nude, which is not illegal in VT.

and/or that you are a guy.

I doubt that most mothers of young children would be comfortable if they walked out into a parking lot and had to pass a group of naked men.

Just because "most mothers of young children would be uncomfortable" doesn't mean that public nudity should be banned or that their opinion is healthy. I think most Americans are far too puritanical about nudity.

as long as no sexual intent is involved.

Casual, non-provacative nudity is common in many cultures. Infusing it with some demonization where none exists is a sick, disturbed action.

you will see native tribes in Africa and South America that have minimal clothes or none at all. And they aren't hung up on children and adults being naked.

I think we got it already.

For the record, I play to raise kids with some normal exposure to nudity so that it's no big deal. But if you choose to be a puritan that's fine. Just don't impose it on people outside of your family.

But it's also something appropriate to certain times and places. I've traveled all over Europe and while I've seen plenty of nude and half-dressed people in "recreational" settings -- primarily beaches -- I've never seen such behavior "downtown."

Nudity has always been regulated in human cultures.

Other than that, can you come up with a solid argument for regulating the nudity of others?

I've never really heard of Europeans walking around downtown areas completely nude. I realize that nudity isn't nearly as taboo in Europe, but even there it's usually seen on beaches - where one might be more apt to see such stuff.

which on a beach or not, is what this is. The town doesn't have an ordinance against public nudity and this isn't the first time there has been public nudity there. This is just a matter of some people like "Theresa" freaking out over nothing worth freaking out over.

I highly doubt that you could get away with walking around any European city completely nude, their lax attitudes notwithstanding. As others have pointed out, there are times and places for nudity - television, movies, and the beach are appropriate - downtown areas aren't.

Vermont doesn't have a law against it. Most of the year, it's too cold for public nudity anyway.

no beach in munich

c'mon bushout06, you're effing with us, right?

i thought everyone knew this?

in which 6 naked men were filmed walking about naked in Berlin for the day, even shopping and going to a restaurant that way. The film-maker said he did it to show how liberated Germans were. There were no reports of anyone being shocked.

I would admit I would be a bit shocked, but just because I don't see that every day. If they were good looking I might stare.

Having nude beaches is completely different, because you can avoid them if you want to. You can't avoid it if you walk out of a store and suddenly encounter a group of nude men who weren't there when you walked in the store.

Aside from the fact that you obviously have issues with nude men. Would you be so upset if they were nude women? If you don't want to see them, then don't stare at them. If they're doing nothing wrong aside from being nude, which is apparently offensive, then I think that's more your problem. People get WAY too uptight about nudity.

And it's become a local tradition they you certainly do know where to avoid it if you don't want to see all that evil, horrible flesh.

the city fathers were recently heard to bitch that the young girls no longer walk around nude in englischer (spelling?) park because they are too hung up on showing off designer clothes which you can't do while nekkid

it's a fairly large fairly well known european city in a conservative catholic area (bavaria) and yet nudity is legal and accepted in the public parks

didn't notice any beaches in the area tho...

I'll take it as the exception that proves the rule.

if i was walking downtown with my daughter (when she was younger) and there were people without clothes on.

i guess i turned into more of a prude when i became a parent. too bad--but it appears i have done a good job on the parenting issue.

Maybe you weren't more of a prude, as much as more empathic. You could see the world through your little girl's eyes.

you're probably right--

you made my day.

I do think there's something about having a child that expands your ability to love in a way you couldn't imagine before it happens. Your heart has sprouted legs and is walking around outside of your body.

some natural fear/shame/loathing that you imagine some little girl feels, or is it that you insist on projecting that fear/shame/loathing onto children?

Insisting that kids should be upset by nudity is not empathy, it's an emotional problem.

anyone else might look for a bit then move on, or join in. If you have trained your kids to hate themselvez and their bodies enough for them to be 'disturbed' by someone soaking up some sun, then shame on you. Your perversions and violent tendencies are your problems, inflicting them on others makes you the offender.

are probably borderline sex offenders. Either that, or they are simply have neurotic body image problems.

Either way, they should keep their problems to themselves and stop trying to enforce their warped puritanical views on everyone else.

after some friends of mine did a 26 mile bike ride naked. apparently they got a letter from the Mayor telling them they are always welcome ;-)

I noticed that all the little tykes had left the wading pool.

There was a man walking in circles around it, with his pants off.

I went and found a young parks dept. employee, and she said he was "harmless." I'm sorry, but men aren't supposed to be exposing themselves in the kiddie pools.

would you have the same problem even if he was simply lying on a blanket someplace nearby? If so, then why?

What is so scary about skin that you honestly seem to think that children should be scared for life from seeing it?

I saw it first here on Saturday, in a post from DUer Vinca

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1944510



What a story! What a country!!!

...they'll be wishing the "Groups of young people..." would come back, but they'll be long gone when that happens.

It is weird that any Vermont town doesn't have some sort of law against this already.

On my favorite clothing optional beach (Collins Beach on Sauvie Island, in Oregon) we have people of all ages sharing the beach in harmony. Yes, there are little kids, too, who probably won't grow up with body anxiety, and the eating disorders connected with it.

They're probably less likely to make snarky comments about people over sixty, with or without clothes,

you want to.

A public parking lot in the center of town is different.

I only complained about the idea that the human body is automatically ugly after it hits a certain age. I'm not in favor of people thrusting nudity on to people who don't like it. The world is big enough for each of us to live and let live.

Nudists tend to be 50+... I went to a nudist beach once... and I will avoid any snarky comments about naked old people.... but most people in general look better with their clothes on... Go to the supermarket and picture everyone there naked... yes everyone... yes including him.... Truth be told it is not a beautiful sight. Many people simply don't do nudity well. (As for the Vermont town's issue I bet they won't have this problem for long. After all fall and winter are just around the corner.)

60+ public nudity (in most cases) is just gross! :puke:

remark.

It's gross if you think the purpose of nudity is to impress you with their beauty. But nudists aren't there to impress you, and you it's not about what you think at all. It's about being comfortable in their own skin. There is nothing gross about a person of any age being comfortable in their skin.

None of you know what it can be like for a young teenage girl simply to have to walk past a group of ogling, maybe catcalling men. That is intimidating all by itself. For a 12 or 13 year old girl to have to walk past a group of naked adult men would be that much worse.

Have some empathy here.

Seriously, lighten up!

seriously, the ONLY thing those people are doing is hanging out naked, not harrassing anyone, etc. Where is the harm in that?

Why not hangout on their own deck or backyard? Or in a private location as opposed to the middle of a parking lot?

then that parking lot might be the closest place they have that's a decent place to gather. Let's not assume that everyone has a home out in the 'burbs, a car, and lots of free time to drive out into the country.

I would like it if our society became less hung up about nudity. Vermont is different than other states, people are more laid back in general, I wish other states were more like Vermont.

for someone other than yourself.

illegal behavior, not the nudity.

is fine, and would apply to all people, clothed or unclothed.

pnwmom,
I'm a mother and I'm not a nudist. Let me answer some of those questions you have been tossing out to everyone.

It's more important what YOUR reactions are, if your child sees something like was mentioned in the article. Your reactions impact what the child things about the situation.

In that town, it's not a new thing. Those that grew up there, must have seen it before. Maybe as a child themselfs.. hmmm.. What did THEIR parents say? When they have kids, they too will be in the same situation. Your not bringing up any new thoughts. But stuff that they consider 'no big deal.' And THAT is exactly what they tell their kids. And that is what their kids will grew up thinking.

As all ready stated, seeing people nude isn't going to mentaly warp the children. What hasn't been expressed, it's the parents reaction that warps the children. We TEACH them what they should think about things.

Even in the USA Children are raised in the 'nude' envirment. I know this for fact. I live not to far from a nudest place. Right out front is a school bus stop. Children from all ages get on the bus. I've talked to people who have worked in the camp. They have shoping, resturaunts, etc.. there. And the people wear what they want. Or nothing at all.

Sure, it's an 'closed' envirment. But the point is the children and what they SEE. Right? that has been your issue. It's not what they see, it's how the adults react to the situation.

Your story about the old man. Naked or not, that was the kiddie pool. It's full of pee. He was fruit loops to be in it, in the first place.

Your story about a young girl walking by guys. What is UP WITH THAT? What has that got to do with the story. That is a whole different ball game. In fact, if she seen them naked, she might end up laughing her butt off at them. There is a reason speach teachers teach their students to imagine the whole class naked when giving a speach.

Culture is created by people. What the people will accept in others. That type of nudity is acceptable in that town. In some parts of the world, a female showing any skin isn't acceptable. It's almost as if she is nude. GUYS raised in such envirment do react to seeing just a little skin of women. Where guys who are use to seeing most all of it, don't react unless the parts usualy not exposed... is seen. <wink> It's the same with women.

Personaly, I rather my kids see nudity like that, then the kind of sexual nudity seen on TV, etc. All sexual and 'perfect.' Yea right.

your ten or 12 year old daughter ALONE to the store, and not have her encounter this in the parking lot?

And, by the way, my kiddie pool encounter wasn't with an old man. He appeared to be in his twenties.

I rather them see THAT then some of the things they could see. Like drugs or violence. There are lots of things that our kids are not 'raised like that", but they have to endure.

Some people would wonder why you would send a kid that age to the store alone anyway. My boys are 10 and 12, and I sure don't.

A twenty yr old is still and adult and don't belong in the kiddie pool.

I guess Brattleboro will have to decide what Brattleboro wants to do about it. If they decide they want to raise their kids to feel weird around nakedness, well let them do so. If they want to have them grow up feeling comfortable with the idea of nudity...well it appears they have done a good job so far.

People are right however, when they say it will scare some people away while attracting others.

or even my grand-daughter are bothered by nudity.

Some kids are brought up without dermaphobia.

Not the best idea. There are other places more appropriate. Like the ol' swimmin' hole.

I will admit that if such a thing happened in the downtown of my town, 1.8 square miles of Brigadoon, my head would likely explode.

at a Rainbow Gathering.

http://www.welcomehome.org/rainbow.html

Welcome Home!

:hippie:

Do you have a problem with that?

I heard the story this morning on VPR.
Many of the residents think a law is NOT needed.

Yeah, we don't get much nudity in the streets when it's... 22 below zero.

If God wanted us to go naked He would have made us that way. I belonged to a naturist club in Topanga Canyon for 12 years. Lots of families with kids that grew up as members. It seems to me they would be emotionally healthier about sex and nakedness than kids who were lied to and smacked down for sneaking a peak at Playboy.

If you're actually concerned about your children seeing nude people, make sure you never vacation in Germany. Many Europeans go topless or nude at the beach in France or Greece, etc. but Germans seem comfortable hanging around nude in major cities. In Frankfurt, the largest park in town, The English Garden, many people are nude in warm weather. Heidelberg, a liberal college town, not unlike Brattleboro (although the last time I was in Brattleboro it was about 15 degrees and no nude people in sight) a sunny day will draw hundreds of people to the wide riverbank where many people go topless or nude within view of the city streets and the highway.

Yes - I come from a German background.

It's always the same thing: nudity is immoral.

"Oh, so the form god created us in is an immoral form?"

"No, viewing it is."

"I see. So seeing god's creation is immoral."

"No, allowing it to be seen is."

"Oh... so, you're embarassed by god's creation?"

"*gulp*"

"Gotcha!"

:evilgrin:

edit: per the article, in this case, it's not related to religion. It 'bothers people'. Big deal.

What harm is caused by nudity? Seriously. Someone, please, describe to me the exact harm caused when, for example, a ten-year-old out walking to the library with her mom sees from the sidewalk a man or woman walking nude out of their bathroom in their house?

For that matter, please explain to me why women cannot remove their shirts in public. Hint: biologically speaking, those aren't sex organs. They're food spigots. :D

(For the sensitive, I don't mean offense, really. I was only having a bit of fun. Please insult my ____ in return.)

I agree. In theory, men don't have them. but that is totaly not correct. Men hav exactly what women have, they just don't develop.

HOWEVER.. I have noticed lots and lots of men who qualify for bras. Hence, if THEY are allowed to go topless.. what is wrong with women going topless ????

What? Men's boobs are prettier then womens?

Somebody actually sued and won the case. The only time I've ever seen women going topless is at gay pride and a few brave souls at the Halloween parade.

They were nudists from upstate New York. Good People. There is no reason why women should be forced to wear clothing just because of social prudery when men can have our hairy chests and backs hanging out for all the world to see.

It always amazes me when young girls are trained to feel that they have to wear shirts all the time. I remember when girls could go shirt-less too until they started to develop breasts. Now the body-shame starts when they are toddlers. It's a sad commentary when the emotionally stunted people in society set the norms like this.

and often do, especially at Community Festival. And guess what? Folks from all walks of life have fun, there are kids present, and generally speaking everyone is polite and behaved about it. Crazy, huh?

it's difficult to hide liquids/lotions and other banned items

think of it as prepping the public for naked flying

yesterday looking for "nekked" people. There wasn't a one to be found. Of course, it was still early in the day. I wish that darn newspaper would put the photos on the web. :rofl: By the way, if you're ever in Brattleboro the first Saturday of the month at noon, be alert. There may be people in the downtown area who will stop and drop at the sound of the nuclear power plant test siren.

Seriously....hanging around downtown without your clothes on is not acceptable and no amount of over-the-top and hysterical people telling me I'm a prude, or borderline pervert or sexually repressed will change my mind.

In fact, all the name-callers in this thread should post up their naked pictures on their blogs and invite all 90,000 DU'ers to take a peek at the goods! Put up or shut up! :evilgrin:

and never go out where they might get scared by someone's naked flesh.

Put up or shut up! :evilgrin:

as i posted earlier, it would bother the hell out of me if i was with my daughter (when she was younger) and we/she walked past a group of guys without clothes on. maybe becoming a parent made me more conservative in certain respects--but oh well. (it has also made me far more liberal in a lot of other respects...such as politics)

all this talk on this thread of how it's a wonderful thing walking around in public without clothes on--and you're right. how many have actually done it?

i loved your: "invite all 90,000 DU'ers to take a peek at the goods! Put up or shut up!"

a lot of times a child will remember the "out of the ordinary", the "one time" something happened and i would imagine that this random nudity bit is a bit out of the ordinary. (example: my daughter was telling me she remembers our neighbor's boyfriend only by one incident; he stood behind my female neighbor, put his arms around the front of her and lifted up her breasts in front of my daughter. that's how she remembers this man who was part of our social/neighborhood day to day for TWO YEARS--this is the memory he gave my little girl.)

:eyes:

Last week? Last month? Ever?

That's what I thought.

That's a very weak argument.

Look, I'm not about to get into some silly flame-war with you over whether I want to look at someone's penis or vagina or hairy butt-crack while I am at the grocery store. I don't. This is one of the silliest things I have ever heard of.

You know..sometimes, it's okay NOT to try and stir up a huge flame-fest over ridiculously childish actions.

This is one of those times.

If you want to walk around naked in public..at the grocery store or what have you..then DO IT! Just DO IT! Stop the name-calling and just DO IT! Please.

Walk the walk instead of just talking the talk.
And let me know how it goes!

I'm impressed. :eyes:

And yet you're against it. They're doing exactly what you are telling them to do. Geez, that seems a bit hypocritical.

I've been at public events where people are topless. I'd have no problem with public nudity. It enough people could agree on a place and get it approved by either law or custom then I'd be all for it.

In this place it seems to be custom. Good enough for me. If anyone doesn't like it, they can avoid that particular parking lot and take their fear of that horible, evil skin someplace else.

I live across the river from Brattleboro and last Friday Dr. Phil's film crew came to town. Apparently he's doing a show on the topic in the near future. They managed to convince one guy to drop trow on the town common - I don't know what else they got.