As much as anything...this election was a referendum on Dion....

...and it was - how can it be disputed - a resounding personal rebuke of his abilities as a national political leader. He consistently placed well back, right at or near the bottom, of every poll on leadership qualities. In short, he blows...he's tone deaf (i.e. he makes a confusing new tax the central plank of his campaign? Really?) and he just does not - and never will he - resonate with a majority of Canadians.

Initially I thought he was a good choice as Liberal leader, but very soon thereafter I realized that I was wrong. So wrong. So very fucking wrong.

But then...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=190&topic_id=19778

Liberal leaders to lose their first national campaign include:

Alexandre Mackenzie.
Edward Blake.
Wilfred Laurier.
Lester B. Pearson.
John Turner.

Perhaps some of the voters on here could look in the mirror for the culprit.

And I did look in the mirror by the way...and I still kick myself for initially thinking he was a good choice.

It was an honest mistake.

Now it's time to move on.

Others aren't such pushovers.

No, Dion convinced me. He convinced me that he is a decent, honourable, intelligent man...who has absolutely no business leading the Liberal party. As a leader, he makes a much more attractive backroom policy wonk. Maybe if he had a strong leader out trying to explain his 'Green Shift', it might have gained some traction with voters.

Is that he never ever gained support from the big dogs of the liberal party. They never wanted him as leader in the first place - so he was hamstrung right from the outset. His party never coalesced behind him - even though he was the populist choice at the leaders convention. His performance, or lack thereof as opposition leader further eroded what little support he did have.

If he had the wisdom of Paul Martin - he would of stepped down last night. I think he should have - even though I like Stefan Dion - the liberal party must reassert itself in order to survive. Dion will never gain the support that he needs - and he will not get the advice he needs to go forward.

I am sad that this is how it worked out. I too had big hopes for him, and for the liberal party.

You're a moron. We're all morons. We don't think for ourselves. If we thought for ourselves, we'd be letting Liberal shill #1 and Liberal hack #2 think for us!

There is no possible explanation for anyone having a negative thought about a Liberal or the Liberal Party other than that s/he is a moron and/or stealth Harperite. Face the truth and move on!

No matter who the Libs select as their new leader, the NDP will declare that person to be a corporatist toady, and persist in dividing voters and boosting Harper's seat count during the next election.

Because of this, progressive voters, and the Libs themselves, need to stop being gentle and passive about the NDP. The NDP needs to be exposed and constantly decried as the divisive, sectarians that they are.

People need to get the message that the NDP is just a self-serving partisan noise machine.

- B

if you were really as devoted to this country and to democracy as you like to think you are, you wouldn't be attacking other parties, you would be trying to work to fix this fucked up system that allows governments to be formed without the majority of the people in their country backing them up.

The fucking BQ get 50 seats, the NDP get 37, and you're all on about this hating the NDP shit again?

Get over it. I'm happy to live in a country where more than two parties exist to represent me. And I reject the idea that the 'left' can be summed up by one centrist party. And I support EVERYONES right to be represented in the way that they see fit. And if you don't, maybe you need to think about how committed to democracy you really are. Our system basically invalidates the votes of nearly half our citizens, and you want to silence them even further by eliminating different options.

The problem isn't the NDP, stop being a whiny sore loser. The Liberals only got 26.24% of the vote, and that's the percentage of seats they deserve.

Working together with other parties would form a government that ACTUALLY REPRESENTS the political mind of the voters. THAT is what is important. That people have their voices heard, and can have an impact on the running of their own country. Not your petty little backroom squabbles about what you think you and yours somehow deserve.

The liberals and the NDP are different, and they could work together, and SHOULD, if they have to will of the people behind them. Because that is what the elections should be about. Politics for the sake of politics, winning for the sake of winning and not to actually represent your country, that is just sickening.

Grow up.

Changing coaches after one game would look like panic, and it would disperse resources and energy. It would be just what Harper wants - that's why we are hearing so much about it in the corporate media.

Consider the other leaders:
- Harper gambled on a majority and lost. Now he has to govern with a minority, in the teeth of a recession and deficit. The knives could just as easily be out for him.
- Layton blew a wad on this election, and only gained about 1% of the popular vote. The knives could just as easily be out for him.
- May lost her own seat. The knives could just as easily be out for her.

...but for me, what it comes down to is the fact that Dion does not project strength. He almost has an Inspector Clouseau air about him...bumbling, unsure of himself and at any moment apt to tumble down a flight of stairs. Dion had that horrible interview with the CTV Halifax guy, it was kind of the equivalent of that. It was like he had slipped on a banana peel at the top of the stairs and then as he kept struggling with his answer, we watched him falling down the stairs in slow motion.

But the media was going to spring something like that sooner or later. I thought he did fine during the debates, when an adversarial (and mainly conservative leaning) media couldn't inject their own framing.

These days, any Liberal leader will face the same hostile media environment. It is just a fact of life. Iggy or Rae would have gotten it too, though the exact circumstances would have been different. Look at the U.S., and what was done to Gore and Kerry. Should an NDP leader ever really seem like a threat, he or she would get a double dose. Right now the corporate media mostly goes easy on the NDP and Greens, as they see them as useful for splitting the anti-Conservative vote.

It is true that Dion has some faults, from the political point of view. He's not really a natural. But neither was Harper. I still think it would be best to keep Dion for another election. But your points are valid too.

I'm more exciting than Dion and I'm an Aspie.

Is Justin Trudeau up to the job? Name recognition alone would be an advantage.

Though it may take another five years or so. Still, you never know.

No fucking political dynasties! This is not the United States, political dynasties just breed a sense of entitlement in politicians (look what happened to Paul Martin and his ungodly hubris), and we already have a Royal Family.

I'm sure Justin Trudeau is a very nice, intelligent, able person, and he could be an able MP, but the fact that his father was a long-serving Prime Minister should immediately disqualify him.

Uncharismatic though he is, I believe the worst possible thing the Liberals could do is get rid of Dion. They can't afford another protracted leadership contest, they would be seen as flighty and fickle, and it would be like admitting that Stephen Harper was right. Stay the course.

That being said, I believe that Stéphane Dion might just be the luckiest politician alive. Remember how Bob Rae won government just as a worldwide recession hit us? When the looming economic disaster finally hits, what the voters are going to do to Stephen Harper will make what happened to Rae in 1995 seem like a mild rebuke.

Another example is Bush I winning in 1988. At the time I wondered if it was really an advantage for the Republicans, although you can hardly expect a party to throw an election.

As for dynasties, they may breed a sense of entitlement, but they will pop up now and again in democracies. Realistically, you can't outlaw them, if only because it would violate any reasonable Charter of Rights.

I do agree with your points about getting rid of Dion. The fact that the corporate media wurlitzer is pushing this idea so strongly at the moment should give any Liberal pause. The idea is to further fragment the non-Conservative political forces. It would be best to wait for a while on this. In a few months, Harper might be wounded by the oncoming recession, and that would be no time for the Liberals to be in the middle of a leadership struggle.

For instance, I think of the picture of him wildly chasing those little kids around...trying to beat them at ball hockey as if his life depended upon it. He doesn't seem to know when to have a light touch. I believe he is brilliant and should be used for his good ideas. I'm another one who was all for him when he was first selected, but he just doesn't make it as a leader.IMO