Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

As the US lowers the nuclear threshold, debate is stifled

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Places » United Kingdom Donate to DU
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 09:34 AM
Original message
As the US lowers the nuclear threshold, debate is stifled
MPs must follow the lead of the US Senate and demand the information we need to question the replacement of Trident

...
The Senate armed services committee is not fooled and has asked the Pentagon for a briefing on the new doctrine. In Britain the document has barely been noticed, and the Ministry of Defence is refusing to release any information on the government's plans to maintain a nuclear deterrent and replace the existing Trident missile system. Last week it dismissed requests for MoD documents under the Freedom of Information Act, refusing to say what studies have been made about the costs involved. It refuses even to say what nuclear weapons are for, arguing that it is not in the public interest to publish its assessments about what threats such weapons could deter.

The MoD was asked to release studies it has made assessing the threats that might be deterred by a Trident replacement. It replied that though there was a "strong public interest" in the UK having a "credible nuclear deterrent", "it is felt that releasing information about the potential value of a deterrent capability ... could damage national security, and we do not believe there would be any public interest in doing so".

The ministry also refuses to disclose the nature of discussions with the US on nuclear-weapons policy on the grounds that "there is a public interest in the UK maintaining strong relations with the US". That would be prejudiced, the MoD argues, if any information about talks with American officials was released.

In an interview with the Guardian last month, John Reid, the defence secretary, promised an open debate on any decision to replace Trident. There should be a debate in the country as well as in parliament, he suggested. In light of the blanket refusal to release any papers relating to the matter, a defence official told the Guardian: "There is no need for a debate now. When the time comes there will be a debate." That, presumably, will be when it is too late to make any difference to what the government has already decided, in private with Washington.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1584990,00.html


Either Reid has suffered a coup by civil servants in his department, and they now tell him what to do, or he was lying through his teeth earlier.

It's absurd that we don't know what the costs might be, what the uses forseen are, and yet they propose that a nuclear deterrent replacement would be debated. I think Blair will try to get this set in stone before he leaves. Brown would be happy with a replacement, I'm sure, but at least he'll think about how much it costs. Blair would pay anything to keep in with the Americans (note that the PNAC are starting up the "Committee for a Strong Europe" - see this thread in Editorials).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Trident replacement?
Is this talk about replacing the present Trident missile with a new and better update? I understand US owns all the Trident Missiles and sort of lends them to Britain.

Or are they talking about replacing the nuclear warhead?

And I wonder why.

180
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The missile system is expected to be out of service by the 2020s
but they appear to be getting ready to build new warheads too. The Trident missiles are certainly manufactured in the USA; you seem to be right about 'leasing' them. The warheads are made in Britain, though whether American expertise is required for this isn't clear (Britain used to do joint underground test explosions with the US in the USA; I don't know if we have supercomputers capable of simulating explosions). The submarines are made in Britain.

Robin Cook's last ever newspaper article was about this:

Worse than irrelevant

Down at Aldermaston they are spending hundreds of millions of pounds of your money on a refit of the production line for nuclear warheads. We are assured this does not mean that any decision has been made to replace the Trident nuclear system. Dear me no, the investment is merely intended to keep open our options.

If we want to exercise the option of producing more weapons, we are told we must make up our minds in this parliament. This is not because Trident is in imminent danger of going out of service. The British submarines can keep on diving and surfacing for another two decades. The problem is that it will take that long to order, build and commission another expensive fleet to replace them.
...
It is not as if the large sums that would be required to keep us in the nuclear game would buy us an independent weapon. Dan Plesch documents in an impressive forthcoming report that all levels of the Trident system depend on US cooperation. The missiles are not even owned by us, but are leased from the Pentagon in an arrangement that Denis Healey once dubbed as "rent-a-rocket". Renewing our collaboration with the US on nuclear weapons will deepen the bonds between Downing Street and the White House, at the very time when the rest of the nation longs for a more independent stance.

It is therefore against Britain's national interests to replace Trident. It is also against our international obligations, notably the commitment in the non-proliferation treaty to proceed in good faith to nuclear disarmament.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,9321,1538629,00.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Interesting.
I will always wonder if Britain developed nuclear weapons on her own or was it a joint effort between US and Britain. To be fair I often wonder if there was collaboration between US and Israel to develop the Nuclear weapons that Israel does not have.

I do not intend to imply that Britain was/is not capable of developing their own nukes or Israel for that matter.

What type of warhead does British Trident carry?

180
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. A variant of a US warhead
British SLBMs are thought to carry a variation of the U.S. W76 warhead designed for Trident I C4 and Trident II D5, enclosed in a U.S. Mk-4 reentry vehicle.

http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab18.asp


And Aldermaston's own official history says:

Penney, who had been involved in the development of the first atomic bombs in the United States during World War II, began operations at the former wartime airfield at Aldermaston in Berkshire, on 1 April 1950 - and the Atomic Weapons Establishment was born.
...
Prompted by British advances in the development of the hydrogen bomb, the United States signed an agreement with the United Kingdom in July 1958 which enabled collaboration between the two countries on nuclear defence. This ushered in a series of technical exchanges which have been a cornerstone of life for our nuclear weapons community ever since.

http://www.awe.co.uk/main_site/about_awe/history/


which probably means that there's a bit of work by British scientists, while the bulk of the exchanged information goes from the USA to the UK. It sounds as if the start of the programme may have just been done with the knowledge of those Britons who worked on the Manhattan Project.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. I think missile
uses W88 or maybe by now an update on that.

Google has a lot of good information re-US nuclear weapons. I find it difficult to learn anything about other nation's warheads.

I was EOD US Navy. Worked with some Harbor Clearance Divers years ago off Charleston SC. Good bunch. Read 'Silent Service'. Story of early British Clearance Divers if you can find it.

180
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fedsron2us Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-05-05 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Britain did develop an independent nuclear capability in the 1950's
Edited on Wed Oct-05-05 05:54 PM by fedsron2us
at a time when the country's relationship with the USA was not always amicable. It largely gave this up in the 1960s when it bought into Polaris. Quite a lot of the technological advances made by British scientists in rocket development eventually found their way into the European space program.

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/B/britains_cold_war_super_weapons/nuclear.html
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/B/britains_cold_war_super_weapons/vbombers.html
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/B/britains_cold_war_super_weapons/missile.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_the_United_Kingdom

Unlike the UK, the French have retained a completely independent nuclear weapons program and delivery system.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon May 06th 2024, 05:02 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Places » United Kingdom Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC