OK, what country should we move to? And how?

Let's have some serious discussion on good alternatives, now that the US has officially lost its moral compass.

What countries are better?

What's involved in repatriating?

How can you legally move your assets?

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I'm afraid Fascism has already invaded Canada, and that Martin is compromised!

become fascist??

I live here, and I can guarantee you that it's not.

but he's miles above the last guy ;)

although, got bless Chretien for keeping our sons and daughters out of Iraq, it will be his legacy for me.

FYI Chretien is going to be at a xmas party I am attending in a month...

perhaps I will tell him about how grateful I am.

Bummer man. Move before we get drafted

If you don't mind Canada move there, the hard part of living in Europe is the culture difference. You will still be close to America if you have family here. It might be the best interim solution.

came back after 9/11. It was a real awakening living abroad, sometimes good, sometimes bad. don't kid yourselves. the euro was no where near as high against $$ as it is now.

Yeah, I feel like running in a corner somewhere and licking my wounds right about now, but I'll be damned if I'm giving up. This sucks and it hurts more than any election I've ever voted in, but this is still MY country too.

If the 54,994,460 people that voted for Kerry up and run away, then this country truly does become a terribly dangerous rogue state. And, in that case, NOWHERE in the world will be safe.

It's hard to look my fellow Americans in the eyes, knowing so many of them voted for corruption, zealotry, and incompetence.

And the damage Bush's Supreme Court appointments will do to true American freedom and democracy is unimaginable.

maybe your fellow countrymen think that the Democrats suck so bad that they had no other choice but to vote for the Republicans

But it's not really a good time to come here and tell us that we suck so much that they had to vote Republican.

Which is part of what's scary. Kerry isn't my favorite guy in the world, nor was Al Gore (whom I do like a *lot* though), but these guys are giants compared to Dubya. Not just literally, but figuratively, too.

Hell, I don't know anything anymore. Right now, I'm so heart broken and angry that I just want to do something, besides cry. And all I come up with is to FIGHT.

Yes, it's possible I'm just being idealistic and in a couple weeks, I will realize that the only way to survive is to leave the country. But right now, I'm too angry and upset to think clearly.

but with those voting machinez, who knows?

Democracy wasn't won from Canada. This country has seen too much blood soaked into its ground to be given up now. It looks bad, yes, but I still (shakily) believe in the people.

We spend our spare time soked to our eyeballs in our politics. We KNOW the issues. Do I know anyone in Iraq? No (though my brother will be going in Feb :( Do I know anyon who's unemployed? Two people. Anyone who's lost benefits, retirement, etc? One. Anyone in jail for MMJ, Patriot Act, material witness? No. VERY few of the issues we dabate here have impacted me directly. The most I can personally attest to is I haven't had a raise in three years. But I know the issues, and am willing to stand up and say something for people that are affected by them. We all are... that's why we're here. Some of us are affected by more issues, but I think we all leave good lives.

If this country truly does nosedive (I hope not, but I despair), it will finally impact people. Unfortunately, people vote from their lives. I believe that when they are impacted, the people will vote to change things. When is emperor is unmasked, the people will point and yell. You can't expect abstract politics to compete with reality TV in most homes. But when it crashes through the door, remember that these are the same people whose Grandparents fought Nazis and and Hirohitto. Remember that their grnadparents were battered by the depression. Remember the Cold War, the Red Scare, Race Riots, Viet Nam, etc. And yet the people have always (though belatedly) risen above these issues. We've come too damn far to walk away now, to abandon this, the great social experiment of Civilization.

Run... this country doen't need lukewarm friends. Forget Canada... S. America has nicer weather and cheaper land. We'll send you a postcard to let you know what's going on.

Maybe the sleeping giant is dead. But until it is buried, I, for one, will continue to poke it with a very big stick.

Good to still see some fight in my fellow Dems.

But there are times when one knows that s/he's licked and should find a place to regroup. Maybe that time isn't now, but it's a dark time for the Alliance, for sure.

This sealed it. I'm training as an EMT, and moving to British Columbia probably. You're more then welcome to come.

I mean, New Zealand??

It's hard to get in... as well it should be. But if you are younger thatn 56, have a desirable (to them) vocation and have enough money, you can do it. They do it on a point system. Me? I'm too old and don't have enough money. Damn.

was a transplanted New Zealander

I understand there is a warming trend there. ;)

If you can computerize a fish processing plant, you might have a shot, but they have a good many talented people of their own.

All of you who would rather whine than work run on off and leave those of us who will continue to work and fight for change alone to get the job done.

While you're at it, go ahead and give up your citizenship so you won't be a burden on us when you want to drag ass back home after we get the job done.

See ya. Have a nice trip. Want us to help you pack?

Today I'm really disappointed in the country I love, and the outlook is grim for things to have a chance of getting better any time soon.

Instead of help packing, I'd like to hear some reasons why things are solvable here or some honest information about places that are more hospitable to people who really value truth and freedom.

Why are you disappointed with the country? That's a hard thing to do. You can be disappointed ith the election as the rest of us are.

Your original post stated your position clearly. According to it, you'd rather leave than stay and fight.

I will not insult your intelligence by telling you what to do. You know what is the right thing to do.

The question is this: are you going to stay and do the right thing or run away?

A place were you don't have to feel like a freak for believing in truth and fairness, and I'm wondering whether that place can ever again be America... or is it somewhere else?

I'm disappointed in my country because a majority of Americans have willfully chosen ignorance, intolerance, incompetence, dishonesty, and corruption.

Sure, most likely I'm just venting, but I am also interested in knowing whether there is another place whose leadership and fellow voters I can trust.

And to make this just venting, hearing how we can make things work -- on which some of you kind DUers have contributed helpful thoughts -- is welcome, indeed.

If you have a parent or grand parent born in a foreign country, you can more than likely get citizenship in that country. Two countries that I know of off hand are Ireland and Italy. You can claim citizenship through decent. My Grandmother was born in Ireland so that is my in. Check out the various embassy websites for citizenship requirements in those countries and good luck.

I'm looking into that now, as well.

Those in Europe are just flabbergasted that we as a nation voted the idiot in...they know and see unbiased media reports about his activities and are scared to death about what will happen to me and the country.

When outsiders start looking for ways to move their Americans friends overseas, you know it's worse than even we think...

we're going there when we retire.

try that for starters

I've thought about Canada or Australia, but I'm gonna fight for America to the end. I was born here, raised here, and I'm gonna die here. I WILL NEVER let a Nazi like Bush take that away from me. If he wants to turn this country into a corporate dominated fascist country that goes around the world raping and looting countries, he'll have to kill me first.

And at the end of the day, I probably will stay in my homeland.

But I'm so freaked out to see how stupid we can be and hate to be associated with the leadership we have and apparently will have for a long time to come -- and perhaps, most especially, to live in a country whose laws will be overseen for decades by a Bush-appointed Supreme Court.

At a certain point, it was smart for people to leave Europe in the 30s. I'm not calling Bush "Hitler" (yet) but let's face it, we're seeing some genuine signs of Fascism in this country -- a clamp-down on dissent, wide-spread disinformation, wild-eyed jingoism, corruption of our institutions, etc., etc.

This isn't just chicken-shit talk here. Some really bad things are happening here, certainly getting close to McCarthyism, and soon possibly much worse, especially given the mandate that our countrymen just gave to these guys.

Switzerland is most likely,
London is next,
Halifax is third.


Staying is not an option.

Been overseas lateLy?

After four years of the "soft dollar" policy, you are going to be shocked at how little you can buy. You are not going to be relocating anywhere any time soon unless you're very well-to-do.

Leaving is not an option. Get more involved in your LOCAL govt, start there, make a difference.

It's a tough day, seeing that a majority of Americans actually want more of the same.

It was easier to take in 2000 given that:

a) More Americans voted for the (far) better man
b) Bush's "win" was tainted
c) Most people didn't realize how bad Bush will be

Aarrgh!

We can't even blame the media: the public knew about Abu Ghraib, about the illegal detentions, the kangaroo courts, the lack of evidence supporting any justification for the war on Iraq, the tens of thousands of innocent civilians whom we now know with certainty that we murdered for no reason whasoever, the public knows ALL of this, yet evidently they like it and want more of the same.

I too could console myself these last four years with the knowledge that the will of the majority was subverted by a corrupt Supreme Court, but what consaltion is there to be found from this election? What can you do, people do this; Hitler was elected too, you know.

is the possibility that maybe the media will get bored of propping up Dubya and will tell the truth about him more. We certainly saw an improvement in this starting with Abu Ghraib. Will they go back to being "embedded" now -- we'll see....

I do appreciate the thought, but I'm frankly beginning to wonder if the average American pays any attention at all to the issues, or if they automatically go with the guy who looks most like he just stepped off the set of Hee Haw. I mean, plainly the shrub failed miserably in every contest on the issues, and the media even allowed his failures to be aired, yet did it make any difference? In the end, all that mattered was evidently that Kerry was from Massachusetts, as if that were some crime all by itself.

God, how I wish Lincoln had allowed the South to secede! They could have their own God, Mom, Apple Pie, and Kill People country and the rest of us could have a civilized one.

:silly:

Where in Holland is the weed free??? :-)

We owe it to the world to stay and fight. Face it, we are the Resistance, we are the ones who get it, we are the ones who see what is happening. We stay and fight, not leave and wallow in self-pity. Those babies being blown in to bloody fragments in Iraq are real, and they won't be any less dead if we turn our backs on this fight. We stay here, we fight, we win, and we go down in history as the patriots who defeated the American fascists.

Barring that, I'd move to France. Great wine.

had no one stayed to be in the resistance, would Hitler have been felled? No. Those who are thinking of leaving, go in peace. Until the ship catches fire andsinks, I'm on board.

We can share the last lifeboat if it comes to that. Or you and I can wind up manning the helm when we drive the other bastards overboard.

What's going to stop the Born Again fervor of these guys? It's intoxicating. Have you heard a baseball player being interviewed in the last few years?

was led by Charles deGaulle, who had fled to England with many French soldiers during the Dunkirk evacuation

all in favor of secession?

would welcome it. Even though we are a red state we often elect Democrat governors (last 16 years), until this election of course. My point is there seem to be enough Dems here for a good base. We just need more.

They have a point system for eligibility for immigration as a skilled worker, and they recently lowered the eligibility score from 75 to 67. You can take a brief test online to see how you score: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/skilled/assess/index.html

You get points for being 21-49 years old, for dual language skills, for education and work experience, and for having prearranged employment.

I've lived in Canada for 5 years. I'm moving back to the states next year, but I'd happily stay if I'd found a job in my field here. Canada's a great place, with generally thoroughly decent and openminded people. Montreal and Toronto are also just wonderfully livable and exciting places, with a reasonably low cost of living for cities of their size.

I sympathize with the "stay and fight" folks, but I don't think they're being entirely fair to those considering other options.
And I'm less optimistic than they are about the effectiveness of grass-roots democracy in today's America. I plan on staying in the US as long as possible--but I'm looking into the possibility of dual citizenship in Canada _just in case_ the excrement eventually really hits the air conditioning.

What's the deal with accessing your US assets when you're abroad for 5 years?

It is time to move but not away from the United States. Instead we move to the cities within the states that suppport our beliefs. Head to the Northeast or the Northwest. Come together. Raise our voices loud. Spread ideas. Be a guiding beacon of light to other like-minded progressives across the country. If we want change four years from now we have to come together in large numbers in centralized locations. It is hard to get support for a progressive message in many states today. Especially the southeast. By coming together in the more progressive areas of the nation it will be easier to begin movements and produce leaders. We must produce leaders. We need more Barak Obama's. The hour is growing late. The Revoultion has already begun and right now the far-right is winning.

Wake Up America!



-also posted in another thread but this one seemed more approptraite

it will help with the Electoral votes. We also have to fight back electronic voting. Otherwise, none of our votes will count again and th e issue of where we live will be moot.

If we don't stop electronic voting in the U.S. it will spread all over the world. We may as well fight here.

If enough Democrat voters move from other Red States or even Blue states we can take it back.

but now that OBL likes it so much .. we'll probably be dropping bombs.

and that much dark.

How much do I need to do to gain resident status? I could probably afford to live on house sale $ for a couple years, which would give me time to look for and hopefully find a job, but a lot of times you need a job before moving, which sucks.

david

..only in winter..,long daylight hours in the summer.

BTW...Southern Sweden {Malmo) has warmer winters, less snow than Chicago.

Skol,
Kim :toast:

n/t

sadly, our elections are now almost as fair as their's...

the opposition bloke won and is now the president. For the first time they have changed presidents through the ballot box.

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:shrug: why do you revel in our defeat? go chum it up with your buddies at FR.

Hate did work. Hate and fear and greed won. The American people didn't speak. The corporate TV whores spoke.

They just feed the crap right into your brains and you all lap it up like you actually had an original thought. Just because the media managed to make the arrogance, greed and fear sugar coated doesn't mean that this was a victory for the American people. Today, the American people lost.

When somone you love gets drafted and killed in some foreign country fighting for the corporations that have caused this, don't come crying to us. But you won't, will you. You think that would be fine, since you think that war is some kind of video game. You would just call them "heroes".

Oh, forget it. I don't know why I bother.

A couple of weeks before the election, I told my husband half-jokingly that if Bush won I'd be taking the dogs and moving to Italy, since we have friends in Livorno. I never seriously believed Bush would win this though.........

-------------------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT for election reform at the municipal and state level!
Clean up the American government from the ground up!
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I hear Mexico is warm this time of year.

I agree. As of this moment, I've lost what optimism I've once had.

I empathize with the "stay and fight" crowd, but I don't think you realize how much like the "win in Iraq, no surrender" bunch you sound like.

Personally, I think this country is a lost cause.

Bush won either;
1) because the election was rigged, yet Americans are eager to sanction it nevertheless
2) Americans are entertained by a good war
3) Americans think that a crusade is a good idea
4) Americans believe that the private sector is entitled to our money and government should get out of their way
5) Americans think that the people to protect the country from another 9-11 are the people who allowed it to happen in the first place

How can you be optimistic that we can change this? The only thing that can change the situation is a catharsis. The pendulum is done swinging, it'll stay fixed in its current position until the clock is broken to bits and rebuilt.

For the sake of my family, (my kids will be draft age all too soon) an exit strategy needs to be considered. Sooner, rather than later because the borders will be closed right after the next terrorist attack.

Dad was a decorated WW2 vet but Mom was a canadian citizen. As global warming takes hold there are more than one reason to consider moving.

Thanks for acknowledging that this isn't just a speedbump. This is some serious s**t, and we're going to pay and pay for a long time to come, as the country becomes more and more zombie-like in its "family values" dementia.

Again, I appreciate that many DUers are calling for continuing to fight the good fight. But for at least a few days I'm going to wallow not so much in disappointment that my guy didn't win, but in fear and disgust about my fellow Americans wanting four more years of this, and a Supreme Court that will haunt a generation, and the fact that my family and friends and the country and the world will suffer the consequences.

The whole PNAC agenda is short on cash, and will be preempted immediately by an economic downturn. If the dems simply refuse to play master and servant, it will work. Read how Gandhi turned the tables on the British Empire, for instance.

My lot in life is to drive repugs "batty" with my liberal views on life. And I must say I enjoy it rather well.
~~Celtic

In the midst of yesterdays depression Canada was looking good, but this is not nor has it ever been their country, and not this way will they take it. I'm staying and I have a plan.

If we as a whole, we democrats, cease stimulating this tottering economy with our common consumerism, a collapse will ensue that will preempt every one of their petty little schemes. BY CHRISTMAS!

Just don't buy stuff - buy nothing, beyond basic needs. There is so much of this economy dependent upon christmas sales, the impact of even a percentage of democrats doing so will be immense. What are the alternatives? I don't see any, short of turning tail for another country, or capitulating in this one and becoming effectively the willing henchmen of the repug masters.

We, along with Washington and Oregon will form a new country called "Leftcoastia". It's easy. Just move here. No fancy paperwork required. In a year or so we'll remove the Gropinator and all will be well in our new land. This land is your land.. this land is my land.. it's California.. better than the New York Islands...

Oh please!

Do the Pubs yap about leaving the country when they lose big to our side, like when Clinton was re-elected? They do not.

Does it really improve this country or the world for us to bail out when the going gets tough?

Stay. Fight.

Unlike Bush, Clinton's fetishes didn't include bankrupting the country, censoring science and dissent, and destroying America's standing in the world. The most that repubs had to fear was gays and women getting equal rights, and everyone having access to health care, and cleaner air and water. Horrors!

after Clinton was re-elected. But they never went anywhere either.

He was the wrong bait. Everyone in Massachusetts knows how limited his charisma is. All told, he ran a decent campaign -- especially his stellar performance in the debates.

I blame my hero Ted Kennedy, who obviously pulled some strings at the Iowa caucuses to get Kerry installed as the Dem front-runner. Someone with more personality, like Wesley Clark would have been a much better choice for a populace that votes on emotion instead of reason.

We love you in Canada (and the rest of the world) and welcome you with open arms....

however, Chimp in chief WANTS you to leave....they would love to have you leave and let them take control of your amazing country! Don't you dare let them! Your country needs you now more than ever!

Please move to swing states and stay active! Never surrender!

... Costa Rica, the Yucatan, or maybe Spain.

Bush's new SCOTUS will set America back for 20 years or more.

I need some input from the DU. I live in a very conservative town in northwest Louisiana and it's time for me to get out. I have a sweetheart in Canada and just maybe I'll get to spend some time up there, but I was also considering the Peace Corps. I'd like to see the world, get my hands dirty, and help counteract some of the damage that Bush has done to the world and our reputation as Americans. But I am worried that the Peace Corps may simply be the propoganda arm of the military or that even do-gooder Americans won't be looked kindly upon when they're doing the bidding of a government program like the PC. Anyone have any advice for me?

PS - I am a 24 year old female and meet the minimum PC requirements, if that is relevant.

I'm sure it will offend my fellow DUers, but I honestly don't think there's much good you can do here under the circumstances. With the repukes having secured their dubious mandate based upon a practice of excluding any and all input from outside their own extremist ranks, nothing is going to stop them from realizing their dream of resurrecting feudalism in this country, not until the public finally wakes up and realizes what it is that they're supporting. In the meantime, you can make a difference overseas, help some people who need it, serve as an ambassador for our country to let the rest of the world know that there are in fact sane people in this country despite our government, and, in the worst case scenario, gain experience and contacts which will help you find permanent employment outside the US if you need it. At the very least, you'll have a great time - everyone I know who's done it speaks glowingly of the experience - and, unlike those of us stuck here, will be safely beyond the reach of Ashcroft's squads of jackbooted thought police.

Californians and Oregonians could move across the border to establish a residence in Nevada. New Yorkers could establish a residence in Pennsylvania or Ohio. If only several hundred thousand did this, it would put more states in the blue column until we dispense with the idiotic electoral college. If you live in a red state, help friends in neighboring blue states to establish residence in your community. Have them apply for a local driver's license, bank account, and voter registration with a local address. It's much easier to do than moving to a foreign country and it's our own answer to gerrymandering by the Repubelickers.

Here's a fun and easy way to move to Canada (if you happen to be single):

http://www.marryanamerican.ca

I -am- thinking of moving to another country. Before anyone brings up the objection that that's giving up, consider the facts. We have a gov't that despises democracy (2 fraudulent presidential elections). They've shredded the Constitution. Our economy will very soon be bankrupt, if it isn't already. I'm 46 and don't wish to spend the rest of my life in the world's biggest banana republic. And the thought goes through my head several times a day: "Why didn't people leave Nazi Germany when they could?" I don't want to wait until it's too late to leave.
On the other hand, I keep thinking "Hey, this is my country and I'm more of a true patriot than any of these Rethugs. I respect democracy and it -is-worth fighting for.
So call me conflicted.

This is my country; I'm not going anywhere, especially after spending over twenty years in public service. The Dems in Congress are going to need our support, too.

Somebody needs to remind the American people that this is truly "the land of the free and the home of the BRAVE" when those cowardly GOPsters are running around screaming "the sky is falling, the sky is falling!" (as they always do, in the face of threats, adversities and challenges). We're going to need all the sane, rational, calm voices we can find, LOL!

Don't you know -- patriotism is just one more ruse, one more pawn -- one more COMMODITY -- they use to try to bullshit folks into thinking they're the party of God when, in fact, they're moral chickenshits.

(On edit: typos; additional text)

See: http://www.harpers.org/ElectingToLeave.html">"Electing to Leave"