Electoral College Question : If Ohio is thrown out then Chimpy still

gets sworn in because the current count with Ohio is 286-252. If you take Ohio away then it is 266-252. Don't we need to get Fla. thrown out too?

My understanding is that there will not be a separate democratic slate of Ohio electors submitted therefore we are F**ked regardless. Please correct me if I am wrong (and I hope I am).

266 is not enough

so it would go to congress and bushCo would win anyway

of action such as Protest a-la-Kiev

If Ohio's electors are thrown out then 266 will be enough to win. We had this discussion on another thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=148839&mesg_id=149638

has been going on for years, and with better scholars than you and I. They haven't reached a consesus, so declaring someone "wrong" seems a bit extreme.

That said, the majority of Consitutional scholars fall int he "need 270" camp.

Article is quite clear as to the definition of a majority. Part of my expertise is election law, but if you read the Constitutional amendment in the above thread, you don't need a law degree to see that a simply majority of the electors empanelled are enough to win. I have worked in this all my life and have never seen an "expert" claim that 270 is the magic number, do you have a link or authority for that?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=148839&mesg_id=149638

TC

...for those new to the issue, or those who are pressed for time, or whose heads are swimming with facts! I just got clear myself that OHIO CAN PUT KERRY IN THE WHITE HOUSE! (Really, I thought we needed FLA or some others--and I've been following this very closely the whole time, and have read ALL of the statistical studies!) So...

Currently...

Electoral Vote

Bush 286 (winner)
Kerry 252

Is that right?

If OH Electoral Vote is deducted from Bush and added to Kerry, we get:

Bush 266
Kerry 272 (winner)


Right?

If OH Electoral Vote is deducted from Bush, but is NOT added to Kerry (thus disenfranchising all OH voters):

Bush 266 (winner)
Kerry 252

This last result doesn't seem like it would be very acceptable, politically, to either party (disenfranchising all OH voters--and re: Republicans, I'm talking about their face, not their reality--they deliberately disenfranchised thousands of OH voters, in truth).

And here's where we get into the courts vs. Congress controversy, and also the people vs. Congress. Right?

Say the court rules that there was extensive fraud in OH, enough to change the outcome. The questions are:

What are the remedies that are available to the court?

What are the remedies available to the K/E campaign and the Dem Party? (And to the K/E Electors?)

What are the remedies available to the people?

And if the court rules against fraud, or delays, or gives an ambiguous ruling, or it goes into appeals, etc., but the K/E campaign, the Dem Party, and the people are convinced that sufficient fraud occurred to change the outcome, what then?

Is this a correct rundown of the current situation?

(Note: This is more or less how it all ended up in Congress in '00, with the black House members petitioning the Senate NOT to certify the FLA Electors, needing only one Senate signature to require an investigation first, and not one Senator, Dem or Repub, coming forward to sign it--the famous scene in "F 9/11." Will the Democrats repeat this betrayal?)

(Question re: the note. Am I right that this is what a House members' petition with at least one Senate signature can do--require an investigation before certifying the OH Electors? If they got that signature, would it stop Bush's inauguration?)

Re: my posting above

"If OH Electoral Vote is deducted from Bush, but is NOT added to Kerry (thus disenfranchising all OH voters):

"Bush 266 (winner)
"Kerry 252

"This last result doesn't seem like it would be very acceptable, politically, to either party (disenfranchising all OH voters--and re: Republicans, I'm talking about their face, not their reality--they deliberately disenfranchised thousands of OH voters, in truth)."

Add:

This last result is also why it would be good to have challenges in New Mexico, FLA and wherever else these thieves stole votes. If OH is excluded, Kerry needs 7 more Electoral Votes to tie, and 8 to win (by one). Right?

(Electoral Votes in some of the current questionable states are: FLA-27, NMex-5, Iowa-7, NC-15, Nev-5).

270 = (538/2) + 1

If Ohio's 20 votes aren't counted

260 = (518/2) +1

The prize Arnebeck is going for is an OVERTURN of the results. If one side has to cheat, then the law says they LOSE. Plain and simple.

And guess what, we have plenty of evidence. A judge can easily throw out the EV's cast by one group and have another group cast their EV's. It's that simple.

We win.

that they lose nationally. Their slate of electors can be disavowed in that state and then the remaining electors will be in effect 266 to 252 * wins.

TC

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/13/ohio.electoralcollege.ap/index.html
If the court decides to hear the challenge, it can declare a new winner or throw out the results.

before the Ohio electors met? Help please?

What do you want me to say?? You're right, the Ohio Supreme Court is going to invalidate the Constitution and 230 years of election law and they are going to become DU believers.... They are going to ignore all established precedent and install Kerry as President. Is that the optimism you are looking for??

That is just fantasy. What I am saying is just cold hard fact. Not optimism or pessimism.

TC

The court can declare a new winner.

send it back to the officials that should have done it right with instructions on counting or whatever they did wrong. Courts overturn actions and give instructions on how to do it right. For example, we never asked and never received a ruling to DECLARE Gore a winner. Bush never got a ruling that DECLARED him a winner. He got a ruling that required that we recount the entire state in a time period that was untennable so the winner that was already certified by the state of Florida went unchallenged.

TC

If the court decides to hear the challenge, it can declare a new winner or throw out the results.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/12/13/ohio.electoralcollege.ap/index.html

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this. (CNN has been full of shit before.)

From what you wrote here, you have to admit that if a court orders that certain votes be counted in a certain way, the totals could change. The question is, could they change enough to give a different outcome. As long as that is possible, I see no reason to tell people to give up. Quite the contrary.

But the court isn't going to declare a winner because that isnt their job. For example, and appellate court will overturn a case and say that the prosecution can retry the defendant but without the key piece of tainted evidence. They didn't let him go, they just overturned the decision and took away certain evidence. The lower court will be the one to let him go.

If the court decided that certain ballots should be counted certain ways they would return it to the proper authorities in that area with instructions on how to count.

CNN is almost always full of it :toast:

You can't just throw out a whole state.

Arnebeck (I think) said in the first forum that were would be two sets of electoral votes for Ohio if the recount shows Kerry won.

The options were to set aside the election and have a revote (too late to count) or to set aside the electors all together. If you sent two sets of electors to the EC * wins hands down.

NM certified its vote.

TC

For someone whose specialty is election law you should know that right?

The GLIBS are doing it. I saw it on here.

Do you have a link for it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=7070

or here

www.votecobb.org

wtfffffff why do people keep saying that?

declare a winner, revote or throw it out

it would be a recount or a revote. if they threw out the whole state, that would disenfranchise every single voter in the state.

what happened already is bad enough....o.

So then we have Kerry 271 Bush 266 Edwards 1

perhaps it would covered by CSPAN 3, maybe it will be mentioned in an article buried in the WSJ....perhaps a quick mention on CNN Headline News...

Of the certified electors. If Ohio doesn't certify theirs then the number would go down, but Chimp would still be elected. The electors would have to go to Kerry, or yes we'd need Fla too.