If the votes show Kerry won Ohio, would you allow a second Bush term?

I'll confess up front I'm still skeptical as to whether or not the case can be made that Kerry won. If, however, Arneberg et al present compelling evidence Kerry had the most votes, there is no way in a million years I'd be satisfied with "reform". Bush had his first term simply because we were too passive and, dare I say it, cowardly to insist all the votes be counted. He doesn't get a second freebie.

As our friends in Ukraine have demonstrated, fortune favors the brave. I don't necessarily believe the tree of liberty requires the blood of tyrants, but I do believe Democracy doesn't work when people grow too addicted to their own comfort to stand up for what is right. To put it in the language of moral values, "Much is required from those to whom much has been given."

If the People want a Democracy, the People will have to earn it on their own. It will take courage and it might even mean suffering. Fear not. We are much stronger than we think. If we weren't, the oligarchy wouldn't be spending so much of their beloved money to convince us otherwise. Your inner Tom Paine has a high tolerance for teargas and billy clubs. You just don't know it yet.

It's a serious matter of principle. :)

and protest. i'm not even kidding, i was just thinking about it.

something like that could NOT be held from the public. they would find out somehow, and they won't stand for it.

...to stop this fraudulent, disgusting and potentially lethal attack on our American franchise of Democracy.

As I've written to numerous individuals in Congress, no one can 'win' this election, because we have no way to validate that each citizen's vote was counted as they intended.

And, we have much knowledge of how many of our fellow citizens were thwarted in their Constitutional right to vote.

Peace.

"I'm an American, not a pro-fraud republican"

first....

If it is shown KERRY won I think it will be time for THE PEOPLE to take their country back. THE PEOPLE OWN THE GOVERNMENT! THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT OWN THE PEOPLE! Although sometimes it seems like it. To many Americans take Freedom for granted.

I've already marched twice on DC to protest the war in the build up to the war and it is a thrilling experience. I highly recommend it.

There is a reason why protests don't get coverage and it is because they are powerful. You gotta be there to know. Revolutions have toppled many governments in the past. It's scary stuff and the government knows it.

Look at our own country for the best example!

The rest of the world hates *. It may not be too far out to think that if it is proven that he lost and Kerry won, the international community would chime in and put pressure on our govt. to do something about it.

Or would you prefer Jeb?

Is E-Voting ME-Voting?

I can't figure it out can you?

How exactly do you Visually inspect a vapor vote? Do they even count at all???????? if so, Please prove it..... We are sorry, but We the People Don't believe you any more. You have lied to us once to often.

In good conscience I could not subject the earth to four more years of this madness. I am a lover of the earth. I am a believer in the rights of the individual. I care very much about the poor. I do not believe in the redneck philosophy, where anything is concerned.

Not that I have any power, but I do have a voice;I am an American citizen and have been for almost 50 years. I believe in the right to vote. I believe that when a citizen of the United States casts a vote, the entire country should know that fact in the leaders we choose. (Well, you know what I mean.)

Let us not forget that George W. Bush is a human being, and subject to the same shortcomings as we all are.

So why would someone in his position so abuse the power that was GIVEN to him on a silver platter?

Because he is a brat. I've met them before. They take and take until you are weary of it. Then just when you are about to scream "ENOUGH!" the curtain rises. I can feel it entering the ends of my fingers. I can feel it.

Do not despair because it's about to hit the fan.

She is suffering and bleeding from her wounds inflicted by this terrible and evil adminstration. Her polish and shine have all
but disappeared. There are so many things in life that I can replace, my car, my money, my job, but what will I do without a country or without my freedoms, my Democracy ??

My inner person gains strength from Thomas Jefferson who created our party, which I absolutely just love, the party of the people, for the people, by the people. This party saves my sanity because it smooths my soul to know such individuals of good character and strength share it with me. I find my salavation in the belief that the concerns and issue we share can save this world and build it into a home we would all be pride to share together. As I meet more and more of you my party family grows and so do I. I would be pride to march beside you. I will pitch in anywhere I can to help others to discover for themselves the treasure that lies within our gatherings, the shared experience of companionship in a common cause or belief system such as our own. My sense of peace comes from being connected to my new community of party members. I am ready to act for I am fortified by this new knowledge and connection just tell me how, when, and where.

I won't be satisfied with "fixing the historical record"...I'm taking to the streets...and I'd be willing to get arrested for it...

Wasn't it Thoreau that said that the only place for a man of conscience in times of immorality was in a prison cell?

Not only no, but HELL,NO!!!:dem:

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

OK, so people protest and get gassed and clubbed. You think John Kerry will be wisked into the Oval Office on the shoulders of the adoring throngs? You think a few thousand people waving signs in the streets and scuffling with the cops is going to achieve that? We endured years of violent protest during Vietnam but it was Nixon's own malfeasance that took him down - not the mobs in the street.


The only person who can take the office is the one declared the winner at the end of the electoral process. The Ohio results cannot just be thrown out (thereby disenfranchising an entire state), nor can there be a revote (Article 2, Section 1, U.S. Constitution - all electors must be selected on the same day). There must be a declared winner in Ohio based on the vote taken on Nov 2. The fact that some people didn't vote (for whatever reason), is irrelavent. "Woulda, coulda, shoulda" non-votes don't count for anything. The only way Kerry can become the declared Ohio winner is for someone to prove that enough illegal votes to reverse the outcome were placed in the Bush column or that enough legal votes to reverse the outcome were removed from the Kerrry column. I'm personally skeptical that anyone is going to be able to make that case.

So for the sake of argument, assume the results stand and Bush takes the oath of office. Then what? Armed insurrection? Storming the White House? Is that what you're advocating? Anyone can spend a night or two in jail for disorderly conduct, disturbing the peace, trespassing, etc. Are any of you blowhards actually willing to take up arms and launch a no fooling, in your face, combat in the streets, shooting revolution? Are you ready to go toe-to-toe with an M1A1 Abrams tank? Anyone out there willing to step up and sign their name (ala The Declaration of Independence), publicly declaring their intention to engage the government of the United States in open, armed, hostilities? If not, then all this talk about fighting and standing and resisting (blah blah blah) is a bunch of hot wind and horse shit and amounts to nothing more than a self-licking ice cream cone.


Once Bush takes the oath the game is over as far as Kerry '04 is concerned. There is no precedence or capability for "unswearing" the President. He will be the President and any attempt to remove him by force will be met with crushing might. Once Bush is sworn, if he is later driven out of office by revelations of fraud or other criminal activity, presidential succession will proceed according to the Constitution, which will keep the administration firmly in Republican hands.

you'de like that.

:eyes:

Ukraine. "Crushing might." Who had it?

200+ year history or orderly transition. 300 million Americans have been culturally trained and politically sensitized to the immutable fact that the government of the United States transitions via peaceful, constitutional processes. Any attempt to subvert those processes via violence will be viewed as an assault on the Constitution, will be rejected on a massive scale by the populace, and dealt with accordingly by those who have sworn to defend and protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

We haven't strayed all that far from our origins.

<<<<<<<<dealt with accordingly by those who have sworn to defend and protect the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.>>>>>>

put my finger on the number of the total size of the U.S. Armed Force. I know active duty is about 1.4 million. With reserves it's probably well in excess of 2 million. Every single member took an oath that began "I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foregn and domestic." The enlisted oath also includes "that I will obey the orders of the President, and of the officers appointed over me."

Is your contention that they are all Hitler clones? Because that will surely make you lots of friends and give you positive influcence among those in uniform.

Once the Chief Justice administers the oath, whoever takes it is President, whether you like it or not, whether you agree or not. And the Secret Service, Army, Special Forces, or any other number of armed federal agents will gladly but a bullet through the head of anyone that tries to remove that president by force.

I can easily name off dozen's of young soldiers and airmen that hated Bill Clinton with a passion but would have taken a bullet or expended one in his defense. Why? Because he took the oath. Were they little Hitlers also?

Is in Iraq and Afghanistan, I don't think there is too much to worry about here in the way of defending the constitution.

You're funny, Mr. Guy. Keep up the good work! :hi:

don't you have somewhere you need to be?

you sound like you want * in office?

Your premise is that protest results in nothing. A few 100,000 people in the street will make the Repug legislature listen. We have most of the proof right now, we just need to get it out to the average citizen. We draw attention to the evidence by marching.

I don't believe the average citizen will just sit on their butts while people are fighting for their right to vote. I don't believe all repugs are cruel, heartless beings. Look at the success of the civil rights movement. Nixon did end the war and it was because of the protests. True it took them years but that was because the average middle class were sending their sons to college and avoiding the war. There is no way for the average middle class to avoid voting fraud unless they give up voting. This fraud affects them here, now and I do believe they would listen if we got out and marched.

But we need a leader and he doesn't seem to be listening.

...I didn't ALLOW a first...welcome to the gulag...

Other than sitting around examining your own navel for lint and posting missives on DU, what do you propose to do to stop it? Protest in the street and spend a night in jail for disorderly conduct? Yup - that ought to do it...

to do the people's bidding.

If it's proven Kerry did win Ohio is it really that far-fetched to expect our elected representatives to act accordingly? If the recount results are known by January 6, Congress will have a decision to make, won't they?

Or are you suggesting that we and they simply pretend all is well because ...?

If (and that's a BIG IF) fraud and malfeasance are shown, and Congress acts within it's range of Constitutional powers to arrive at a just result (e.g. dispute questionable electoral delegates), then the election will have been resolved by Constitutional means. However, don't believe for a minute that Congress will go there just because there's a big crowd standing out on Pennsylvania Avenue waving signs. They're going to need gold platted, iron clad proof of fraud.

Absent that, Bush will take the oath in January. Which brings me back to my original question - then what?

...you sure don't seem to like that part about "the right of the people to peacefully assemble" shit-do you?

My point isn't about peaceful assembly. My question is, what do you do when your peaceful assembly (or somewhat rambunctious acts of civil disobedience) don't magically waft John Kerry in to the Oval Office?

You said: "My question is, what do you do when your peaceful assembly (or somewhat rambunctious acts of civil disobedience) don't magically waft John Kerry in to the Oval Office?"

The electorate would have two choices at that point: 1) take up arms in revolt, or 2) live with it.

Knowing the attention spans of most of the electorate, I'm sure we'd go with #2.

I fail to see your point. Are you suggesting that because the odds are very low of effecting change that we should be satisfied with status quo?

Why?---I'm one of those Liberal Elitist Hippie Radicals.


:smoke: :smoke:

how do you know this isn't agent Mike trying to find out how Kerry will be put in office for *

(kidding)

Bush trying to stay on would be illegal.
Not that he won't try by all means at his disposal.
I have been wondering if I would sit down in front of a tank, and if those nice national guardsman would shoot at fellow Americans.
Well at Kent State they did just that. So we will have to see.

It may very well get bloody and some of us may even die, however we will die privately anyway. I wasn't planning on living forever anyway.

The way I figure, this guy already has the blood of 4000 Americans and maybe 200,000 people in the middle East on his hands. So I don't think he will be shy to shed more blood, or put us all in an insane asylem if he can get away with it. Hopefully there will just be too many of us and the Generals will do the same thing that they did to Nixon.

He feels that it is too late and we are in a total police state and that there is nothing we can do.

I said that if I die fighting this so be it, so many are dying everyday just by us being complicit with this admin. Don't we owe it to our country and the innocents in the world who are subjected to this nightmare agenda.

He said it wasn't worth it and I would just be arrested. That they were laughing at our demonstrations.

Yeah well, once again Gandhi," First they laugh at you....."

..of some of the posters on this forum. It's about the fight, it's about being able to tell people (including yourself), if Bush does ultimately end up back in the WH, that you did your best. Maybe we'll win, maybe we won't, but stick together and give these fu€kers hell every step of the way. If they divide us by convincing some that its hopeless, then they win. Even if you feel in your gut that we won't succeed, NEVER show them a weakness.

Tripmann

:argh:

this time.

He already got one bogus term that we might have prevented, had we taken to the streets - Ukrainian style.

I don't think it matters if this whole fight even goes past 01/20/2005. If it comes to be proven that Kerry won the electoral votes - then he is the President, period.

I told my boss that if that comes about, I'm taking a leave of absence to go to DC and help shut it down completely, then go into our White House to help drag the squatters out by their feet if necessary.

No way will I put up with a bogus term 2. No way.

will I accept a Bush presidency if the votes are there for Kerry! Don't even consider "making nice" if, on January 19, it's proven Kerry won. It Dubya were to be sworn in for another 4 years after a Kerry victory there would be war, plain and simple. (This is my first DU post. I'm a long time reader, but couldn't let this topic go by without throwing in my two cents.)

FUCK NO!

to follow invalid order around the world if nobody asking for a valid voted Administration.

so why should I care if the SS beat me to death? no more years!