Regarding my 'Kerry into the White House' thread

First of all, I apologize if I offended anyone. Such was not my intention.

Second, I had *no idea* the thread would get so big so quickly. I cannot possibly respond to everyone who posted there, and for that I apologize as well.

Finally, and most importantly, that thread was ONE MAN'S OPINION. Am I right? I hope not.

Do I hope that this process will see Kerry into the Oval? More than anything in the world.

Do I denigrate those who work from that premise? Absolutely not. Those who do so are on the side of the angels.

We are all in this together, and we believe the same things. I stand with the fight, wherever it may lead, and may the spirit and soul of the Constitution stand with us. Lincoln believed in America as a civic religion, and so do I.

That means everyone fighting this fight is Righteous, in the old-fashioned version of the word. Whatever I can do to help, I will do.

inspirational and provoking. holding the constitution like some hold their bibles. once upon a time this was the brave new world. hubris and greed have contaminated our foundation, and we owe it to those who follow us to fight this great fight.
thank you william pitt

:thumbsup:

Pitt, today I had kept my reservations about you to myself. Honestly, when I read your post I was convinced you were another self-righteous asshole bent on forcing your opinion on others. Your statement has definitely altered my sentiments toward you, as you have shown yourself to be a man of reflection. (Wish the same could be said for the president... :eyes: ) So, even though I did not vocalize it on here, I feel it necessary to do so now in light of your commendable action.

I, for one, will be right there with you fighting whatever battles lay ahead of us. If those battles are in the streets with protests, civil disobedience, or, God help us, violence, I shall fight on. In the words of one of the greatest patriots in history, "I have not yet begun to fight!"

I will continue to entertain a hope, though at this point infinitely small, that Kerry will be inaugurated on Thursday, January 20, 2005. Nonetheless, I am prepared to accept the even greater possibility that Bush will be inaugurated again, and with that in mind, it is imperative that other preparations be made. Sweeping election reform must take place before 2006 to gain a Democratic majority in both houses of Congress. If this can be achieved, I believe that impeachment should be sought immediately for both George W. Bush and Richard B. Cheney.

In closing, I am honored to have at my side honorable men and women like yourself in this most important of crusades -- the preservation of our democracy at all costs, no matter the sacrifice.

ON EDIT: Your avatar is one of the most courageous Democrats in history, Robert Kennedy, and I knew that you had to have a good amount of diligent intelligence!

if this doesn't get Kerry in the White House and the culprits are not sent to jail, your work (and everyone else's involved in the recount process) has been WORTHLESS.

The whole world knows the election was fraudulent, it doesn't need any more exposure. The Bush Cadre knows we know they stole it and are laughing at us. Four more years of global holocaust are upon us and you give us this high-school poetry on 'the spirit and soul of the Constitution and how Lincoln believed in America as a civic religion'??

Please.

I don't agree with the gloom and doom all or nothing view.

As some say, this isn't about Kerry. This is about fair elections. We may be working for the NEXT election, no this one.

I just don't want to see people dispairing if we don't hit a home run right away. I want Kerry in the White House. But I will take having the fraud exposed and people ending up in jail at any point in the next 4 years. Watergate didn't come to light right away.

I want to see people continue to fight for fair elections even after January if need be. If we don't, then all that has come before will indeed be for nothing.

there was never in this country a popular movement to elect a Democrat like the one we witnessed last month. The Bush 3rd Reich squashed it with computer rigging. If we let this one go, we'll never have another chance at power.

There won't BE a next election, at least an honest one. There won't BE any election reform either, stop dreaming.

This crime has to be dealt with NOW, and by John Kerry, no one else.

considering this forum is an apology, but I do agree.

Even without issues of voter fraud or intimidation, the last four years of Bush's constant perjury and violations of ethical and campaign laws would be enough to demand an impeachment if our government was in fact uncompromised.

In a month's time a egomaniacal madman, a secretive, lying, vengeful despot with delusions of godhood, is scheduled to become the most powerful man in the history of the world.

There is little point in deliberating the standardization of electoral procedures for when his "turn" is over. It won't be over.

Our discussion should be keeping this administration from being seated, or - god forbid - contingency plans.

Thanks for your clarity!

"The Bush Cadre knows we know they stole it and are laughing at us."

As an buddy of mine remarked today after calling an old friend, "She was a little feisty, but that's okay. You need a little feist."

:toast:

I didn't have a chance to read your interview with Arnebeck yet. An impression I got from his appearance on CSpan's Washington Journal was that one of the primary reasons for his case is to get some legal discovery of things like the raw exit poll data. Did you guys touch on that subject at all? Or does he truly believe he will overturn the results?

i look forward.


peace.....

There is so much horror and frustration among us at what happened in the election and is happening to the country -- the world! -- with the silent compliance of the MSM, it's inevitable that emotions are going to be running high when we discuss it.

You are one of the ones on the front line, actively pushing to get the truth out. That is courageous and admirable and has helped to encourage me (and I assume many others) to hold on and not give up. It must be hard at times to keep yourself psyched and energized when you get tired and the task seems overwhelming. Thank you for keeping going anyway.

I can't pretend to know what Kerry's private plans are. Like you and many others, I am hoping very, very hard that he has them, that they are on track behind the scenes, and that they involve a valid outcome to THIS election. But whatever happens, I firmly believe that the issue of election fraud is not just about this election. We need to do everything we can to continue the fight to expose the fraud and injustice and right the wrongs of this election, but we also need to carry through after it is settled in whatever way happens. Entrenchment of unverifiable voting and voter disenfranchisement in this country MUST be fought no matter what happens.

I'm aware that I'm preaching to the choir here. I suppose I'm trying to say that I'm not surprised at tempers flaring, and that I hope no one is discouraged by it. That, and that I want you to know that I am so, so grateful to you for what you are doing.

I don't think you have anything to apologize for. You told the truth and as much as some people may have the need to have that truth sugar coated, it simply had to be said straightforward and simply, which you did very well.

I agree that the most important thing in the long run is to make certain that no elections are ever stolen again and to have true reform in our electoral system. Of course we all dream and hope that these investigations will get Kerry into the WH now, but much more important in the overall scheme of things is the honesty of the process itself.

You are tired and have been working your ass off for a long time. Relax. We are all in this together.

If, despite everything that caring, courageous people can do, Kerry is not president for the next four years, we can't allow ourselves to become so disheartened that we let up on the continuing fight against election fraud and voter disenfranchisement.

Take care of yourself, Will. We're all in this together.

if you ask me.

This is about democracy itself.

Is it a sham, or is it real?

We need to know. And make sure that it never EVER is a sham.

We're being buried in "bread and circuses" right now, let's make sure our elections aren't simply part of the theater.

on edit: I didn't read the original thread. Now it's over 200 posts, so I'm not gonna click on it. Those tie up my computer. If I said anything obvious, well, whatever. I'm tired. I'll shut up now.

..."as much as some people may have the need to have that truth sugar coated, it simply had to be said straightforward and simply..."...


Backsliding does not become you, Mr. Pitt.

You said it, you own it, no shame in calling it like you see it.

:hippie:

you are thoughtful and dedicated to the cause. Bless you, we need more like you in the world.

It make most of us wonder if you are just a Republican Jerking us around--Think the original "Manchurian Candidate"

But here's something from Reuters that might cheer everyone up:

Republican Warns Bush on Social Security Reforms
Sun Dec 12, 2004 05:10 PM ET

By David Morgan

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Republican congressional proponent of Social Security reform warned President Bush on Sunday not to rely on a sharp increase in government borrowing to overhaul the federal retirement program.

U.S. Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said reliance on borrowing to finance an estimated $1 trillion to $2 trillion in transition costs would be irresponsible and could undermine Bush's tax- and deficit-cutting goals.:think:

"What I'm asking of the president, when it comes to the transition costs, be flexible," said Graham, who has proposed a temporary rise in payroll tax contributions to finance Social Security's shift to partial privatization.

"I think it's irresponsible to borrow the whole trillion dollars," he told "Fox News Sunday."

Bush, who has made Social Security reform a top priority of his second term, reiterated his opposition to an increase in payroll taxes to pay for reforms he says must include the creation of new personal investment accounts.

Personal accounts would allow workers to hold a portion of their Social Security payroll taxes as private stock and bond investments.

But by ruling out higher payroll taxes as a means to fund the transition to personal accounts, Bush appeared to leave few financing options aside from new borrowing.

White House officials say borrowing would not endanger the president's other financial goals, which include a pledge to cut the federal deficit in half by fiscal year 2009. :crazy:

On Sunday, the White House said Bush remained open to suggestions as he kicked off his reform strategy last week in meetings with U.S. lawmakers and Social Security trustees.

"The president has not prejudged any solutions and looks forward to working with Lindsey Graham and other members of Congress to find ways to change Social Security," said White House spokeswoman Suzy DeFrancis.

Graham, who said he has proposed raising the annual salary cap for Social Security taxes from $87,900 to $150,000, said a big jump in borrowing could increase the deficit to more than $700 billion. :freak:

"I don't think you can make the tax cuts permanent, have alternative minimum tax relief and borrow the entire transition costs -- which is over a trillion dollars -- and have deficits that we can sustain," the South Carolina Republican said. :tinfoilhat:

Democratic Sen. Jon Corzine of New Jersey, former head of the Wall Street investment firm Goldman Sachs, said personal accounts would undermine Social Security's long-standing role as a provider of stable guaranteed retirement benefits.

"In any given 10- or 15-year period, you can have ups and downs in markets that could leave the retiring group of individuals at that point at great risk," he said on the same program.

"Us"? You got some mice in your pocket or something?

Mice, a Rat maybe. I keep hearing everyone saying that the Freepers a watching us,:shrug: I thinks it's got me paranoid

EOM

and I know you have the courage of your convictions and as far as I'm concerned no apology is necessary.

Keep speaking out from your heart because the message is clear: we don't have a choice this time. We had one election stolen in 2000 and another one in 2004.

If we don't do something now we will be in the same boat in 2008.

Keep speaking out and writing about your beliefs. As a journalist you have an obligation to tell the truth about what happened in this election. People need to know that this could happen again and we need to be prepared for the fight of our lives because we are up against a powerful enemy.

Maybe we won't be able to change the results of this sham of an election but I'm not going to rule it out. Let the chips fall where they may but I don't want it said that we just layed down and let them walk all over us.

I think all here respect what you are doing and really appreciate your note.

I wrote earlier that I had a different opinion than yours and I say that again. In my view, if this election doesn't end with Mr. Kerry in the White House, that would mean the end of the American political system.

Your fight has kept the hopes of many on the forum alive and I believe that when you saw the confusion that some people posting today on DU had created, you tried to make them understand your perspective and things got a bit out of hand.

Thanks for clarifying your position, Mr. Pitt.

I don't think anyone here has any illusions about the power of the people we are fighting, or the lengths they will go to to retain their power. The "checks and balances" of the Constitution have pretty much been destroyed. We have little recourse or remedy for what we know was a great crime, the theft of this election.

But it's important nevertheless to keep the best outcome in mind--the ousting of Bush Inc. and the installation of the true president. That is the goal. And it should remain the goal even if we don't achieve it by Jan. 20.

At that time, impeachment will become the means, the remedy. How? First, by achieving, a) a paper trail for every vote, and b) open source code, in every jurisdiction, through focused, local, grass roots action. We CAN elect a progressive (and impeachment-minded) Congress in '06. We HAVE the numbers. WE are the majority! --if we can only get our votes COUNTED.

The goal--the straight road--remains the same. Bush should not be president. He was not elected.

In 1965, when I was a young civil rights worker in Alabama, our hopes and dreams seemed very far away. The immediate problem was to overcome the literacy tests used to exclude blacks from voting, and other such obstacles thrown up by the white racist society, and just to survive--not to get intimidated or discouraged--so that we could be there to assist the extraordinarily courageous black community in its demand for full citizenship.

The idea of black sheriffs and mayors getting elected seemed very far away, and very much a dream--almost impossible. Yet, without that seemingly impossible goal, why try to register people to vote? What was the point? How could this minority group--terribly impoverished, totally disenfranchised, and constantly abused in every way--ever achieve political power?

It happened within a decade--black sheriffs, black mayors. The impossible was realized --because it had been stated, and had been held fast in peoples' hearts, as a HOPE, a DREAM. The dream held people together while each small difficult step was taken to make it real.

William, I think maybe you were reacting to people who want "instant gratification"--people who think that if Kerry is NOT inaugurated Jan. 20, all is lost, or, people who see the injustice and want it instantly remedied. People wanting victory now--impatient people, hot heads. They contribute fire to our efforts--and that is essential--but we must guard against their depression and disappointment if victory is delayed, or if victory comes in some other form, or if this turns out to be a much longer term struggle--with this initial fight for the rightful president as just the opening battle. We must act to right this injustice, in whatever way we can, but we also MUST think long term.

Please accept my profound thanks for all your work. You have been a great inspiration to me. I understood your outburst for what it was, I think: fatigue. But it also helped me to think a little more philosophically about all this. Do we have a chance, by Jan. 20? Yes. Is that chance very realistic? No. Should we still go for it? Yes. And if we fail, by Jan. 20, should we still keep that as the goal? Absolutely yes. Because justice requires it.

For sharing your experiences, for the historical perspective and also your comments on our current situation ... Very inspiring and thought provoking

this earlier today (I was one). So your thread happened along at the right moment to gather most of us together in one thread, where previously we had been all over the place. That was a good thing.

There were a lot of frustrations from other threads that got pulled into yours though, too. I haven't checked back, but I hope that the bad feelings that I was carrying here from that other thread that I had just previously been posting in weren't thought to be criticisms of you. If so, then I apologize.

Even though I wholeheartedly agree that the larger issue is to ensure that all votes are counted fairly and transparently, and in posting here, I try very hard to focus on facts, I find it too easy at times to get sucked into the vortex of emotion about the issue of Kerry's chances. Not surprising, I suppose. Although it sometimes seems to me that it was years ago, the election was really only about 6 weeks ago. I think because we worked so hard for a DIFFERENT result than the one we are now asked to accept, or at least deal with, and because we are reminded of the injustice of this result on a daily basis, the emotions around the disappointment over the election are still quite raw for many of us here. So, its going to take a while, I guess.

You seem to be a positive force around here, William, and even when people disagree with you, most are able to do it in a constructive way. So, I have to say, far from being offended, I, for one, am really very glad you posted.

In your last thread you said we have no constitutional Right to Vote for President and Vice President. (I apologize if this was discussed in the last thread but I've been thinking about this all night.)

You are right it is not in the Constitution but it is in the XIV, XV, XIX, XXIV, and the XXVI Amendments to the Constitution. Since 1866 the words "the right to vote" have been used over and over again. This clearly shows that our law makers accepted that we citizens have the right to vote.

In 1866 (ratified 1868) in the XIV Amendment they used the specific language of "the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States." Again in 1962 (ratified 1964) in Amendment XXIV they used the specific language of "The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President." This clearly shows that since 1866, our law makers saw voting for electors for President and Vice President as a right of all US citizens. Perhaps prior to 1868, you could have argued that it was not a constitutional right but after those Amendments were passed and ratified, it's too late to turn back the clock to 1865.

I'm glad I got that off my chest.

It helped us to refine our thoughts and our personal sense of priorities, on just what it is we are fighting for. For myself, this is all about election fraud--what has already happened and what might happen if things aren't changed.

To me, the ultimate goal, and the highest ideal, is to have a uniform voting system that is transparent and verifiable. But figuring out and agreeing on what exactly that is, and replacing methods already in place, is a daunting task. States have already spent millions or billions on electronic voting systems in the last few years, and will have to spend millions more to replace them (my wild dream is that eventually the likes of Diebold, ES&S, and Sequoia will be forced to reimburse every state for the corrupt machines they have sold them). HAVA (in its present form) seems to me a sham and a fraud, as not only is it facilitating election fraud (through the sleazy electronic voting machines being shuffled in), but it is a big boon to corporate America at the expense of our civil rights (with Accenture's voting lists, etc). We also have the issue of continuing with the Electoral College or not! So it will be a mountainous task to overhaul the entire election system, though it MUST be done.

In the meanwhile, we have an urgent, down and dirty crisis to deal with. We have overwhelming circumstantial evidence that this election was stolen through electronic voting system fraud. We also have overwhelming direct evidence of widespread suppression and fraud through other means. It seems highly likely that Bush and many others "won" this election through fraud. Therefore we need to do whatever we can to GET THEM OUT--NOW!

I will shut up now, but I appreciate your giving us the opportunity to think this through, hear each other's opinions, and refine our thoughts, so that we can get back to work (on whatever it is we choose, personally) with a clearer focus and sense of purpose!

MendacityCentral is just too embarrassing as a government. Plus, they're all courting hellfire <g>.

Yesterday, Jebb Bush invoked the Virgin of Guadalupe (visitation celebrated on 12/12) for Pete's sake. I really doubt the Virgencita wants the smirking chimp to be calling on her, patient as she is.

And Madame Mumper, head of the Repugnican Party in Greene Co (I think that's right) was the Ohio elector who gave the BENEDICTION yesterday. See what I mean? Just begging for it.

George Bush makes Richard Nixon look like Shirley Temple. And if you think it all the way through, if he's going for The Rapture, we might as well try for Kerry as a slightly less difficult project.

emails. I never expect to agree with all of them, but that's the beauty of being on the side that prefers constructive discourse over dogma and party line. That was just a minor bump in the road.

at least for now.

The best way (maybe the only way) to fix the election system is to prove that the 2004 election was fraudulent. This proof needs to be irrefutable so that the media and the majority of people can't ignore it. If all we can do is show a bit of fraud here and there then there will be no pressure to fix anything. If we can show that the certified result was incorrect (two times in a row now) then there should be much greater pressure for change.

In other words, the scandal of the 2004 election needs to be broken open in a major way.

And, as far as I'm concerned, the sooner the better. If it comes out in time to affect who's inaugurated then that is great.

On the other hand, I wouldn't be in favor of accelerating things in order to try to change the 2004 outcome if accelerating would pose significant risk to the larger goal of fixing the system once and for all.

So bottom line, it seems that Arnebeck is trying to affect the outcome and that's fine with me. If he runs out of time then I'm still as determined to continue because this system has got to be fixed.

This is not an either/or situation--it is multi-pronged and there are many fronts--such as

Prove 2004 election fraud
Expose widespread corruption and suppression
Demand better media coverage, encourage new media
Expect legislators to ensure vote protection before 2006
Support new voting reform groups
Turn shock and anger into appropriate focused action
Continue to express rejection of the Big Lie
---------

Q--*maybe one of the problems we as a group are having in this debate is that the realistic message of "see beyond Jan 20" is being confused with the unacceptable "get over it" message"???

No way to "get over it"--but LOTS OF WAYS TO USE IT to great advantage. Keep the faith right now. The way will become clear.
So many have seen the light...we have the numbers. Fine to be skeptical but don't go down the dark road.

A lot of people are having a great deal of difficulty in coming to terms to the current reality. Your post has probably helped some of them.

In fact, if this fight did start to look like it would unseat Bush, I have no doubt that something would occur that would throw the country into Marshall Law.

There's no need to apologize... :pals:

Don't know ya but like what you have to say!

If anyone here thinks that they do not want Kerry to be president well they are at the wrong place.

Anyway, DEMOCRACY is what is most important. Without the right to vote, hell we wouldn't even be talking about John Kerry. As matter of fact if this wasn't a democracy we wouldn't be able to talk about anyone except Bush!

So, this is the most important thing in this country today! Unless we all want to live under the tyrannical rule of the current regime our efforts need to be solidified into that of democracy and everything that entails.

Voting, freedom of speech, the press. These all need a heavy duty looking at as we proceed into this future we call democracy! If these are not looked at and taken care of we will indeed not remember that one election was stolen, however we will forever remember that democracy was replaced by corporate greed and a disgusting charade of democracy being acted out in the disguise of Repukes.

Your words are generally always right on and you are one hell of a writer.

I think you are one hell of a voice for all of this and commend you on your respectability.

ki-yai!

Thank you so very very very much for all you do, and I agree I want to see Kerry in the White House more than anything I've ever wanted in my life, right next to wanting Gore 4 years ago.

I feel like I lost my innocence in 2000 with the theft of the election and I will never get over it.

Thank you so much for being here and reaching out to those of us who need it and please keep up the great work.

Edited for saying 2 years instead of 4 . . . .

lol..kidding (that was for calling me one when I confessed how bad my grammar was a few weeks ago :hi:)
Anyway, I think you do a damn good job around here, and I know that for me I am still on the fence about how I feel concerning all of this that has happened in the last few months. You have offered a lot of good information to us all and as you can see from the posts, it is really appreciated by most.
:thumbsup:

Reality is a bitch, or a bastard.
The reality is that the repukes have had a plan all along for this election and it not only included fraud in the vote itself but a plan for the cover up afterword.
this is obvious by the fact that they seem not at all worried by any recount, that was all in the plan, and part of it was to keep the media from talking about it.
We must admit to ourselves that we are dealing with ruthless people that believe that the end justifies the means, and so there is no morality other than that of winning.
Our only hope is a grass roots movement that first changes the election system to be somewhat more responsible to the people than we have. And then and only then will we be able to vote out the new fascist rulers of this country.

They started impeaching Clinton as soon as he unseated Bush1, and they're capable of killing 100,000 Iraqi's because they're no longer needed now that the Russia, the red manace is quiet.

They're capable of lying, stealing, and killing. I can believe anything.

I read your work regularly and am very grateful for the insightful coverage and analysis which few of your peers give. I disagreed with your post but appreciated it as a reminder of just what we're up against. As a right-leaning friend of mine reminded me recently when I gave him an update on the election fraud investigation efforts, "If Kerry wins Ohio, you'll need a crowbar to get old George out of the White House."

it is good to have you on our side and appreciate every effort you make