Dear Will Pitt and DU

I've been watching these threads regarding the Kerry interest in the lawsuits regarding Triad.

Honestly, I'm finding it hard to get excited about this. Do any of you think that this will reverse the Ohio results?

The reason I ask is because I don't see anyone--or anything--making any difference in the current state of voting irregulations unless we remove Bush, Inc. from power.

Kerry seems to be going along for the ride on this issue, not championing the cause. It seems as if Kerry is simply trying to ensure that all the Is are dotted and all the Ts are crossed.

If so, why get excited? If not, if Kerry has much more going on, why the secrecy?

Can anyone give me a reason to think that Kerry's involvement will affect a single issue or resolve a single problem that we face as a country?

is Kerry actually going to step forward? A couple of weeks ago I spoke with a man who was one of the advance people with the Kerry campaign, and it was very clear that he and Kerry and apparently no one else in the campaign understood how angry we are about Kerry's too-early concession, especially after he'd promised to make sure that every vote was counted.

I think if there's a strategy, it's to try to placate people like us and to try to make us think Kerry cares and so to remain a viable candidate four years from now.

Well, sorry Johnny boy, but just like Al Gore who gave in too easily, there's no chance at all that we'll ask you to be the standard bearer again.

:cry:

STRATEGY HE WILL NOT HAVE TO DO A FUCKING THING BUT TAKE OFFICE!!!!!!

Smirky's inaguaration invitations have been sent out and arrangements have already been made.

HE'S CORRUPT AND ILLEGITIMATE!

That reply was too funny. :)

because I DO NOT understand.

For the election to be overturned, one would have to challenge the certified vote.

Correct?

Who then determines whether the votes are a reliable indication of the intent of the Ohio voters?

Ohio SoS Blackwell?
The Ohio Supreme Court?
The US Congress?
The SCOTUS?

What are Kerry's chances in ANY of these arenas?

TRIAD DID THIS FOR US IN RECOUNT!

why Triad's actions automatically reverse the Ohio results.

Explain in complete sentences.

Assume that the person to whom you speak has no previous understanding of what has happened to this point.

Election law has been broken in Ohio! Bushilter is about to be proven illegitimate stay tuned...how's that?:hippie:

No offense, but yelling out sentence fragments about Bush and fraud is not very informative. When I asked you to slow down and explain as you would to someone who had no previous knowledge, it wasn't for my benefit, but for your own. I hoped that you might better communicate those ideas that are clearly burning to be released from your mind.

I still have no idea what you are yelling about, and so I feel as if we have both failed in this attempt to communicate.

well, unless you consider it a strategy to not only NOT overturn the election but also make sure every pronouncement reassures the rightwing that that's not our interset. :eyes:

.....Very nice interpretation!!!

strategy at work. Dig a little deeper. Skimming the top not going to work. It's "hard work."

of insisting that there is a secret strategy.

Insist away, it doesn't prove anything, but it is a little funny. I get the image of you stamping your foot, claiming I'm not listening.

:silly:

The election law of Ohio was broken. The recount has been tainted and therefore the Ohio vote is invalidated, unless a full hand recount of state is done. Therefore Kerry doesn't have to do anything. Katherine Blackwellburn did it allllll for us. Simple but true.

Here are your points, and my followup questions:

1) The election law of Ohio was broken.

Assuming that the election law was broken, did breaking the law change the outcome of the vote?

2) The recount has been tainted and the Ohio vote is invalidated

Is that the ruling of the court, or is that your hope? I have not seen any thing that indicates that the certification of the votes has been challenged at all.

3)The only cure to the Ohio vote problem is a full hand recount of all the votes.

Are you sure that a hand recount of all the votes will give the win to Kerry? What if it doesn't?

4) Kerry doesn't have to do anything. Blackwell did it all for us.

So all of the above will happen spontaneously?

You are taking a leap of faith here. A court case may find no evidence of fraud, or that the fraud would not have altered the outcome. The court may not order a full hand count. Finally, even if ordered, a full handcount may not hand the state to Kerry.

There are huge holes in your "strategy." It really doesn't seem like much of a strategy at all, more like a wish list.

Here's hoping your wish comes true!

:toast:

1) Has not been heard yet.
2) No ruling yet unless I missed it
3) Evidence may have already been destroyed ie ballots and bushitler remains illegitimate and corrupt...however if he is linked throughout the long process as Nixon was to Watergate we rid the Whitehouse of illegitimate and corrupt bushilter.
4)No it takes hard work.

Just because 50,000 DU'ers are convinced Bush** lost
does not stop the juggernaut of SOS Blackwell, Ohio
SC, US Congress and the SCOTUS. If I was a betting man,
I would bet on shrub finishing his 2nd term.

Having said that, to preserve the democracy, the fight to
bring out the truth in our voting system must go on. It
most likely will not result in a Kerry presidency, but
it will help enormously in 2008.

Kerry is so much more presidental than that convict-in-chief. It's sucks he isn't going to be inaguarted. :argh:

PLACE

TIME

DATE

BY ORDER OF DA COURT

And maybe we can drive the Republicans and the right wing Democrats nuts for the next four illegitimate years. Nothing they say matters because the religious right did not give Bush a majority. Bush did not win this election legitimately.

And better yet, we publicly expose the Fraud for what THEY ARE. A slow but Excruciating process. Notice the onslaught of Freep maggots since the election? They wasted no time at all did they? Why is that...hmmm.

This will only aid in improving the election process, and make our rights permanent. In the long run, no matter what happens we never stop. We hammer them hard, then harder, until they crack. Weakness has already been exhibited.

Expose them all, but wait for the light to attract everyone of these mothers first. Then... ZAPPP!

Kerry can support counting all of the votes without believing that there will be enough votes to change the outcome.

MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE COUNTING OF VOTES/SUPPORT RECOUNT!

:evilgrin: :party: :toast: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

lol!!! Watch out for the flying monkeys cuz it is time for the Monday night smackdown. I am surprised it took this long.

with themselves. Then the jerks will get off on their own and will torment each other! hhehhhheeeeehhhheeee

I love your little fight guys

We used to the MSM!

and so, regardless of how loud they yell, nothing ever gets said.

Is that what I should be expecting?

Kerry walked away and left DU holding the bag.

If he had an heart, he would have been with us during this fight.

He is a cop out.

There is only one quality that matters in a Dem Pres candidate now. The people will automatically vote for a Dem at this point, as even GOPs are becoming painfully aware what a liability Bushit is to this country. The only thing that matters in our candidate then, is a willingness to COUNT THE VOTES and stand up like a patriot. If Kerry fails to do this (though I hope he's secretly doing something), he's history.

irreparable harm and could not offer demonstration of same to Court. Kerry team can offer this damage to the court and will not be tossed as greens were.

but lets assume that Kerry's team is successful on this.

Then what?

Carry this line of logic out to its conclusion. What do you see happening?

Is this a tempest in a teapot, or are the ramifications greater than I understand?

If Kerry or Edwards would STAND UP, get to a podium and tell us that it's not over yet.

Short of that - it's just attorneys collecting some of what's left from the campaign fund... and "reporters" looking for readership and/or fan following.

but what reporters are you talking about? I have yet to see much of anything about this, at all, on the LBN forum, or on tv.

This is where the whole thing gets weird for me. What reporter wouldn't give their left nut, (or ovary), for a story this big? Yet, the silence is deafening.

be SURE they have enough evidence and enough peoplpe on board before they try taking * down. Kerry and his wife are well aware of all the mysterious accidents and suicides surrounding this group, since Teresa'a first husband was one of the accidented. Here's another one in today that looks like what will eventually be reported as a suicided. At least that looks like where they might be leaning.


Ukranian Minister of Transportation found dead in his home. You remember the newly elected candidate is Bush's guy right?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2871548

Here's the BBC link
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4129091.stm

He was often involved in non/bi partisan liberal efforts to reform healthcare and supported other "liberal" agenda's. He is not the only accidented republican that was not on board and was either accidented or suicided.

http://discostud.blogspot.com/
<<snip>>
While an article in the New York Times on Saturday pointed out the danger politicians face due to their heavy air travel schedules, the death of a senator or member of Congress is still relatively rare, with only one other sitting U.S. Senator, liberal Republican John Heinz, dying in a plane crash since World War II. Heinz, who entered office as an outspoken opponent of the Vietnam War, later emerged as a strong proponent of health care, social services, public transportation and the environment. He also urged reconciliation with Cuba. He died when the landing gear on his small plane failed to function, and a helicopter dispatched to survey the problem crashed into his plane.

There have been in the neighborhood of 75 or so accidented or suicided people connected to the current administration. Ashcroft's name comes up in connection with one, possible two, I'd have to go back and look at my research Mel Carnahan is the one I can pull out of my you know what right now. 4 Bush Biographers have "committed suicide." The most recent being Gary Webb. Dr. David Kelly was trying to expose Prime Minister Tony Blair's fraudulant reports about WMD's and was found dead in the area he took his daily walks. Official cause of death was massive hemmorage. Someone drugged him and slashed his wrists. 2 men who were working on electronic verifiable voting methods with paper printout reciepts for voters both died in car accidents. One of them was Athan Gibbs, can't find the other one right now. The list goes on and on and on. I believe several DUers have researched some of these. I know we had another thread going just prior to the hoidays. Maybe you could research that, if you need more info. I posted a bit of research I did regarding plane crash victims only, and this CNN article.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/25/politicians.plane.crashes

HERE'S THAT OTHER THREAD
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=180786

Remember that list that went around?

I had to explain that for years.

Ron Brown was Clinton's secretary of commerce. He died in a plane crash, but was found to have a hole that looked like a .45 caliber bullet wound in his head. Ron Brown also worked for Mickey Leland, who also died in a plane crash. The suggestion was made that his death changed the way Clinton's impeachment trial went. But that statement was made by Republicans that had alterior motives. The other Clinton connection is Congressman Boggs who died in a plane crash in 1972. Clinton drove him to the airport that day. The tie-ins to Clinton are not nearly as profound as the tie-ins to Bush and his cronies. Too many people with just the right information have ended up pushing up daisies when that information concerns or affects powerful Republicans and their greedy goal to gain FULL and UNRESTRICTED access to OUR government and all it's powers. If you believe in election fraud you should research why some of us realize the issue has the potential to uncover GREAT misdeeds by our government.

"Dr. David Kelly was trying to expose Prime Minister Tony Blair's fraudulant reports about WMD's and was found dead in the area he took his daily walks. Official cause of death was massive hemmorage."

But, not enough blood observed on-site. Not enough drugs either. And, body moved by we don't know who. And, at that stage, of course Dr. Kelly was surely under constant "security" surveillance. The first civilian medics on site found the place crawling with strange, uncommunicative, military-type people.

Blair's politically-appointed (his flatmate from university days) head of the UK legal system (with some srange feudal title which escapes me just now) stopped the inquest on its first day, appointed instead a political 'comission of inquiry' (Hutton) which did not even attempt to properly perform the function of an inquest - instead, becoming a political, TV show-trial, it cleared Blair & Co. of any wrongdoing (although it did establish that Blair and the (subsequently promoted to head of all intelligence services) head of his intelligence liaison committee had lied) and blamed the BBC for airing Dr. Kelly's view that the WMD justification for invading Iraq was "sexed-up" (over-exaggerated). The purge of the BBC still goes on to this day. The BBC should obey the master's orders (O Yeah?)

We still don't know how come Dr. Kelly died. Apparent murder, looks like (All the mainstream press at the time said suicide or apparent suicide - since then, except for The Guardian/The Observer, mostly silence: move on, forget it, move on).

Dr. David Kelly was the UK's top expert (Blair's people called him a "little man") in WMD control, recently returned from UN missions in Iraq. Being an honest scientist, he had said that, maybe, there still remained a little something in Iraq, couldn't be sure, but was sure most had decayed and/or been destroyed. So the Bush/Blair line was, to put it mildly, "sexed-up" for the tame media.

Result: death. But certainly not ignominy.

None of this will ever be forgotten.

if the reason he is joining or filing suit is because he (as a prosecuter) feels they have some actually ironclad proof of fraud. Many DUers have conjectured that he wouldn't get involved until there was actual proof -- and then he would come out swinging, so let's wait and see.

does the popular vote in Ohio dictate how the electoral votes are going to be cast?

and sent to Congress under the Ohio winner take all process.

Electoral votes are certified by a joint session of Congress on January 6th. This is NOT over.

Ohio is an all or nothing state.

actual voter tally at all. They can cast their vote for anyone they choose to in a number of states. That was brought into the light during Conyers first hearing.

Didn't they? It was certified a few weeks ago.

We could all be disappointed, and Kerry's reaction since the election theft has hardly been what I would have wished. Nevertheless, I am willing to wait it out and give it a chance because the * administration wants us to be disheartened. They want us to give up. Their partners in crime, the corporate media, hide the facts so that we will not react. It's extremely important that some of us stay informed and vocal. Personally, I am thankful to the regular posters on this forum. They're doing the work that our "free press" should be doing.:toast:

And it needs to be examined now.

Now we need to help him by standing behind him and to get these crooks who would steal our elections. We must support all who would stand with us against the lost of our vote or Democracy.

:bounce:

I too do not understand what the fuss is about. I don't see the reason to get excited over filing a motion. Kerry isn't even the one doing it, but rather his subordinates. I have yet to see him speak about the issue.

He was supposed to have filed last week, but then the courts were snowed in and he was supposed to have done something today as if it would matter, since the inauguration is about three weeks from now and oh! yes! the electoral college ballots have all been cast.

Kerry should have behaved like that amazing woman running for governor in Washington State (I hope I have it right) and the guy in the Ukraine who both knew perfectly well they'd won and DID NOT CONCEDE.

Kerry could have fought on the front lines. He may be fighting under the radar, but who knows? He does, and a few close associates.

Everything else is speculation.

I don't want anyone to give up hope, but worse than no hope is false hope.

If Kerry does get involved, is it too late?

If it isn't too late then what is the outcome we should hope for? I want to know if I'm to hope for a reversal of this fucked up election, or if I'm hoping that fraud is uncovered and the guilty punished.

And am I to even hope that this case cracks and light is cast over all the fraud from every state?

What are we hoping for here?

the recount there - she played the "won't make a difference in the outcome" game and let the WA dem party do all the heavy lifting in spite of her fear of declaring she might have won.

She took everything from the Kerry post-election handbook - just that the WA dem party didn't have such an uphill battle getting votes counted.

That's a huge difference. Kerry said he'd not give up until all the votes were counted and then, oh well, within 24 hours he said "I give up."

You can't spin it any other way. Speaking for myself, I feel completely betrayed.

votes behind Bush. Look what they did to Gore, who was half a million AHEAD. That said, Gore never declared victory, like Bush did, but Kerry was so far behind in the official vote count that I don't think the public would have stood for it.

before all the votes were counted, when all of the provisional ballots -- 98 percent of which would have been for him, because it was Democratic voters who were being challenged, not Republican voters-- were a long way from being counted.

And anyone who seriously thinks Bush legitimately had 3.5 million votes more than Kerry doesn't understand how well stolen the election was.

I said for two years that in a free, fair, and honest election, the Democratic nominee, no matter who he would be, would beat Bush hands down. And even though I'm not a fan of John Kerry's, thought he was a terrible choice and a worse campaigner, I still maintain in a free, fair, and honest election he'd have won in a landslide.

Look at the votes in Florida, in Texas, just to name two others. There was clearly massive voter fraud there. And it didn't have to massive in most places, just enough to be believable.

And don't think for one minute that Bush will be a true moderate during his second term. He'll be going all out to fulfill the conservative right wing agenda, have no doubt about that.

...as it is delegitimising the ** dictatorship, AGAIN.

We all want to see it overturned and President Kerry inaugurated, of course, but the big picture is in getting the issue out there so more and more people begin to question; to sit back and think "maybe he didn't REALLY win, despite what CNN said."

If ** finishes another term without resigning in shame and scandal (wouldn't that be fun? :), he's undoubtedly going to screw everything up even more so and will lose in a landslide (again) next time - because what we're doing now is going to FIX the corrupt electoral process.

Whoa, I just wrote that entire paragraph about ** running again without even thinking about the 2-term limit...probably because the 2-term limit will be a thing of the past in 2008 and this loser will probably run (and lose) for the third time.

Anyway, the primary issue is fixing democracy NOW, or else Dems will never win an election again. Expose the fraud, delegitimise the dictatorship, fix the electoral system and reap the benefits when the entire country (even the red states!) is fed up with **.

Quote: "Anyway, the primary issue is fixing democracy NOW, or else Dems will never win an election again. Expose the fraud, delegitimise the dictatorship, fix the electoral system and reap the benefits when the entire country (even the red states!) is fed up with **."

All you Drama Queens, you know who you are, come on out. Let's lay the smack down. Who's gonna be first.

Remember that answer in the debates? I firmly believe that Kerry wants us all to fight this fight and not just him and his attorney's. I firmly believe that he wants us to make our voices heard just as he did in the 70's. I firmly believe that he wants this to come from the people and not just from his money and his lawyers and his actions and his ... what have you.

He wants us to want it. Just like with a kid, if you give them everything then they have no respect for the object at hand ... but if they have to "earn it" themselves, it means the world to them.

I further believe that Kerry would not want it just because some judge said it was his. That's what put Bush into power before and it divided the country to the point where we are now. I believe that Kerry wants the people to make it happen (not unlike in the Ukraine) so it can be legitimized by proving the fraud. The added benefit would be a bright light on further elections so that this can never happen again.

I firmly believe that Kerry does not want this to be a fight about one man and one election. He wants US to want it badly enough to fight like hell for it if we have to ... not unlike he did in the 70's, whether it is supported in MSM or not.

He has not slinked away, he just finds himself in a postion where he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't by someone from one side or the other. WE need to make it happen. That's the big WE -- as in you and me.

I might be wrong, but I don't think I am.

that's possible.

With every fiber of my being!

I've thought all along that this needs to be a grassroots movement that is born in, and comes from, the hearts of "We, the People." There is great strength in that... much more than the words of lawyers, and courts alone. Those are important aspects to the outcome, of course, but it is the voice of the people that carries the real power, and this is a movement that is gaining steam in minds and hearts.

totally agree. NO, the Ohio vote won't be reversed!

Realistically, I don't think that this will give us a new president for the next four years (would be nice though). But we all know that some dirty deeds have been committed. I just want some justice.

I'm embarrassed to be an American. I can't stand the future we are leaving for our children. Democracy is dying.

If you think this would be overturned with interviews or more mention in MSM, you are wrong.
This is a criminal case...that is the only thing that will make a difference.
Kerry is up against an adminstration that has attempted to steal the presidency, twice!
I believe that he is handling this with a great deal of intelligence, strategy and with every step/detail thought out.
I believe he is working 'round the clock to save democracy.
We need to be united in the possibility that this is acheivable.

That gets tried in court. Not in the :puke: MSM.

While doing surveillance, you don't throw press conferences and rallys. You build a case.

Meanwhile, a lot of the repug scamming occurred since Kerry "conceded". Kerry's left plenty of rope with which Blackwell, Triad, etc. are hanging themselves.

It's a criminal case.

"Pursuant to Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 26, Intervenor-Defendant Kerry-
Edwards 2004, Inc. hereby moves this Court for an order preserving materials from the
2004 presidential election and for leave to take a limited number of depositions on an
expedited schedule. The depositions and preservation order sought by Intervenor-
Defendant Kerry-Edwards 2004, Inc. are the same as those sought in the motion filed on
December 23, 2004 by Defendants NVRI, Cobb and Badnarik. Intervenor-Defendant
Kerry-Edwads 2004, Inc. hereby adopts the memorandum and proposed order filed by the
Defendants in support of its own motion.
Dated: December 27, 2004
Respectfully submitted,
/s/ Donald J. McTigue
______________________________
Donald J. McTigue (0022849)
Law Offices of Donald J. McTigue
3886 North High Street
Columbus, OH 43214
Telephone: (614) 263-7000
Fax: (614) 263-7078
Counsel for Intervenor-Defendant
Kerry-Edwards 2004, Inc.
Certificate of Service
This is to certify that a copy of the foregoing was electronically filed this 27th day
of December, 2004. Notice of this filing will be sent to all parties by operation of the
Court’s electronic filing system. Parties may access this through the Court’s system.
/s/ Donald J. McTigue
______________________________
Donald J. McTigue, Attorney at Law


( I guess you will have to wait and see if it has an effect. I, for one, sure hope so!)

There has to be more, this is more of the same!!

under the court's protection and allows the K/E team to take depositions

this is the very first step to peeling away the BS

My husband's a lawyer in Columbus. He's done election law for 16 years. He's away at a conference but I'll fax the court filings to him and see what he says. He's been right on the money with every decision so far.

resources than I do, I just am a layman and read the filing :shrug:

*

LOL

This doesn't do what you said. This is a request by a party for a judge to order what you said.

but that being said, cross your fingers.

This is not some bold new step that is going to lead to the oveturning of this election. I'm not saying there isn't a case for doing so, just that this filing is far from contesting the election. That needs to be made very clear.

I'm kind of taken aback the the actions of one person in particular over the past few days, in what seems from here to be at the least, pandering, especially after a recent thread which discussed how the election would not be overturned. The build up of this is troubling.

one must take one step before the next, this is ONE step that had not been taken previously by Kerry/Edwards. DUers are quite capable of reading multiple views without hyperventilating so don't be concerned.
Being happy that the filing has taken place is something I would think all would be happy about.

I just think that this was built up to be something that it is not. If I'm not mistaken they had taken this step just a couple of weeks ago in joining the last suit. They are doing what needs to be done but it is in no way, shape, or form, a step towards contesting this election. I know people are wanting to hold out hope, but this is not it. This is about longterm election transparency.

of the election like the Ukraine but the most important issue is the question of fraud and the intent to ensure a free and democratic election and I believe most DUers know this. It is beyond only Kerry/Edwards and into the very real issue of election fraud.

But what bothered me is the way this was portrayed. We have to do whatever we possibly can to ensure transparent elections, but this filing is not going to affect the outcome of this election, not even as a first step.

Ohio seems to think the greens/libs are a joke despite their own laws. They can cheat on recounts, withhold access to public records etc.

Kerry joined to force one county (Delaware?) to proceed with recount despite financial objections. Blackwell's calender shows on Jan 1 that certain election records no longer need to be kept (though some need to be kept for federal offices).

Kerry's participation, as a 'injured party' seems to carry more weight than voters as 'harmed' by a foul election, or Greens/libs who have no chance of winning the election. We need to get all the evidence preserved as Blackwell and the Ohio republicans seem determined to avoid any scrutinizing of the election till at least after the inauguration. Better to have all the evidence when we can finally get congress to investigate or get citizens access to the info.

So yes, he is having an effect - though he may well be doing the minimum conscionable.

I would prefer that he be leading a charge, but I'm not much of a political strategist. So I'm not going to speculate or rely that he has a secret plan.

My hopes are that whether he win or loose, the greens/libs/grassroots will be remembered and strengthened, and weaken the 2-party stranglehold. A magnifying glass held up to this election will do that - if the evidence is preserved.

Maybe some point in the future (hopefully near future) we can have conservatives, progressives, dominionists, libertarians all presenting 'electables' instead of Repub vs DLC or Fascist vs ABB.

Imagine an executive branch that isn't all a single party? A congress where representatives represent their voters rather than their party.

Sorry, I'm with those who have been so unimpressed by post-election Kerry, it's hard to imagine anything could ever happen to keep freakin' Bush from assuming office for 4 more years. I started life as a "Deaniac," but realized after the scream it would never happen. After I decided Kerry was the best choice, I supported him entirely, including donating more money than I've every donated before and more time than I had to give. I might have been able to accept a bonafide loss, but it will bother me forever that Kerry 1) conceded before all votes were counted, 2) dragged his feet when more than 50,000 claims of voting fraud were made, and 3) will not call a press conference and take this to the level it deserves (a jog above Scott Peterson might be nice). x(

Nice to have you.

No flames here. Just know this, things are not always what they seem, and what is happening IS a BIG DEAL.

I was on the Kerry forum forever and I also frequent CGCS. The filing IS a big deal. I'm just cranky because it is 8 business days . . . I think . . . before the election is given to King George again and the "filing" should have been happening on November 4 or 5. I'll get over it. Thanks for not flaming. Maybe another glass of shiraz will help.

This thread was a real pick-me-upper: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=196204

Read all of OldLeftyLawyer's posts. As she so ably points out with her legal expertise (for free!), there's a rhyme to the reason about Kerry's post-election behavior.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

I wonder all those things about Kerry not leading the march, too...

However, I am still keeping the faith, that there are lawyers gathering something (depositions, evidence, whistleblowers...something) quietly in the background so as to not tip their hand. Just a optimist, I guess.

Never give up.

first sentence. Kerry's strategy has stellarly (stellarly is my word not to be found in Webster's)brilliant, the kind we urgently need in the White House. Maybe he hasn't played the game the way YOU wanted it played, but he is totally impressive to those who know what is up here. If there is any justice left in the United States, we are going to see some history this week, and Kerry doesn't need to be in the spotlight for anyone's appeasement.

And she was being so polite, too.

PS.. he does it to everyone.

that they chronically run from the truth through manipulation of rhetoric, but you dear are no master.

You need to be careful what you post. You could find yourself in some trouble!

My lawyer isn't a husband either.

enjoy tell not truths....liar liar pants on fire.

hopefully he is presenting the strongest possible case.
very few people think it will overturn the election. a lot of newbies think that's what this is about and so are quite dismissive without having any backround about what this really means. no flame here, poor kerry is trying to keep his head up without being dismissed as a sore loser or tin foil hatter.
lets hope for the press conference though!

It seems as if Kerry is simply trying to ensure that all the Is are dotted and all the Ts are crossed.

And the credit from all the others is stratospherically out of whack by comparison.

From my perspective, Kerry is merely covering his butt. Doing just enough to pretend to be interested and in the game and "concerned" about all the votes counting, but with every breath and every pronouncement giving it away: "We're not interested in challenging the election," yadayada.

Pathetic. As always. The last time he was a hero was after Vietnam, and there are some indications that was merely self-serving opportunism on his part too.

However, all this breathlessness and minute-by-minute check-ins from the would-be cogniscenti does seem to keep some of the people here amused and busy. Perhaps that's better than hearing them whine about things from which there's no "leader" (savior) to save them.

:hippie:

I am sorry that you are so bitter about things that have happened to you personally (at least that is how I read it, IMHO), surrounding all this byt not all of us are in the same place you are.

Kerry is a methodical person, who sees "complexities" in things. He is a former prosecutor that spent a great deal of his time in Washington "investigating" things that turned out to be "very big deals". Remember BCCI and Iran Contra?

Either you believe in the MAN or you don't. If you don't, then say so ONCE and let it go. No one cares very much for a wet blanket, offered over and over again, even when offered by someone they respect.

I believe in Kerry and his investigative powers. Rome wasn't built in a day, but we have the best shot at exposure of all the misdeeds with Kerry. Just like with Iran Contra, not everyone signed on to his beliefs in the beginning. These things take time.

but I think Kerry is building his case brick by brick

Watergate took months to break, and this is more about the future of American democracy IMHO than getting Kerry in the whitehouse

if we can't get clean elections, we are lost forever and I don't believe JK is going to let this die OTOH I don't think he's needs to shout from the rooftops at this time as that would be counter productive to the big picture

but then I have supported the guy for years :shrug:

I hope I'm right :pals:

I can't stand seeing so many good people kidding themselves, indulging in purely wishful thinking. It's beyond the point of simply unattractive or slightly embarrassing and gotten counterproductive if not self-destructive. I'm speaking in generatlities here, not about YOU per se, AzDem.

if we can't get clean elections, we are lost forever ...

I totally agree.

and I don't believe JK is going to let this die

John Kerry has not demonstrated that he even understands the issue, let alone will fight for it. I'll say it again, John Kerry is doing nothing so far but covering his own butt, being a little bit of this and a little bit of that to try to cover ALL his bases (and capture/satisfy absolutely none).

And for those who like to trot out BCCI. I'll repeat: WAKE THE HELL UP! When was the last time you heard Kerry say a WORD about BCCI or anything remotely connected to it? Never, unless you heard him talk about it way back then, which is unlikely. It's as if whatever he did relative to BCCI was done by someone else -- he's not proud of it, it's not one of the things he talks about. EVER. If you think BCCI has anything to do with anything about John Kerry (except ancient history, totally irrelevent now), YOU are engaging in wishful thinking, big time. EMBARRASSINGLY big time. Pure, unadulterated fantasy world stuff.

I hate to break this to all of you, but Kerry is NOT the man you think he is, he's NOT the leader you are craving (and imagining), and he's NOT going to deliver us from this election fraud issue. Now, maybe you all just can't let go of your Kerry hero-worship, fine. But at LEAST read the handwriting on the wall: look at the RECORD right now, since Nov. 2. Hint: there IS none. Kerry has NO record fighting for anything to DO with this election. He's allowed a couple of pitiful, terribly modest papers to be filed in OTHERS' lawsuits. That's it. Are they/were they helpful? Modestly so, perhaps. But this isn't leadership. AND THERE'S NO FUCKING PLAN OR STRATEGY BEHIND ANY OF IT. He's simply, meekly following, but even at that, just a little, so no one can fault him for not doing SOMEthing -- just in case there really is something there.

God, what a cowardly jerk he is. I know I can't convince some of you of that, but I beg of you, at least just look at the record -- the totally non-existent record.

And as for strategies, and flying under the radar, I've been watching DUers fantasize and fool themselves about Dems having secret strategies for FOUR YEARS NOW, and not ONCE has there been such a secret strategy by any Dem. Not once. What you see -- and hear -- is what you get with these people: NOTHING. Oh, a few mild and completely toothless letters from wonderful Congressmen like Conyers and Waxman. No fault of theirs that they're utterly toothless, but they are. Comes a point even their wonderful protest letters are utterly useless and they need to find quite a bit louder ways of "leading" or making a difference because stacking up a paper record isn't cutting it.

YOU (each of you) are the ONLY ones you can rely on from here on out. Actually, that's been true for years now, but it's becoming quite urgent that you recognize it NOW. Every minute spent thinking about how Kerry or someone else is going to fix this, or make a difference, is a minute NOT spent figuring out how YOU are going to fix this. Get it? You're wasting your time and energy WAITING on someone else to get it together and make a difference. Not going to happen. We are alone in this (and pretty much everything else), and the more quickly we can reconcile ourselves to that fact and take appropriate ACTION, the more quickly some of these "leaders" might actually catch on -- but don't hold out hope, please.

WE have to become the leaders we need.

I had wondered why Kerry never used BCCI or Iran/Contra during the campaign. Not once did he bring any of it up, even when they attacked his Senate record, he said nothing. This denial of one's own accomplishments is rampant throughout the Democratic Party. If this party is ever to be strong again - it will have to wake up to reality first to take the risks and values and champion them. Paul Wellstone did this. He was a proud liberal. Dems must wake up and say...

The word Liberal comes from Liberty. I am proud to defend liberty and justice for all, therefore, I am proud to be a liberal.

great work. That alone would have put to rest the complaints that he didn't know what terrorism was.

There are plenty that may agree with you. So, start a thread with them.

And the damn thread is mine. If anyone gets to ask someone to beat it, it will be me.

I don't agree with Eloriel 100%, but I don't need to, either.

This conversation remains open until a moderator, or time, kills it.

peace :)

But I find your tone much easier to swallow, ponder and respond to. If you have issues, by all means, air them. And, this is a damn good place to do it.

But, do we really need to hear from Eloriel that we're all nutjobs for having our own opinion? She's so much saner?

Didn't mean to offend but this is a terrible time for us to be squabbling in the ranks.

Cheers. :)

and as I said, I don't agree with Eloriel 100%, but she (I'm assuming Eloriel is female) does give a strong voice to a side of the issue that I appreciate hearing. Sometime we have to be willing to deal with the frustrations of those who boldly express unpopular opinions. Goes with the territory.

I find your commentary on Kerry vicious and very reminiscent of the SBVFT.

"Pathetic. As always. The last time he was a hero was after Vietnam, and there are some indications that was merely self-serving opportunism on his part too."

From some of your other posts , I would have expected better of you. The only thing I can say is that we do not KNOW what Kerry is or isn't doing. Your opinion is just that, an opinion. The time is coming soon enough when we will find out what Kerry has been doing or not been doing. Up until that point, all this is conjecture. Whether you or anyone else like the fact or not, John Kerry is the last standard bearer of the Democratic Party. We owe him both a little respect and a little patience.
We have every right to question him and John Edwards. They represent us and they owe us an explanation.But we come no closer to that explanation by quoting the enemy and giving veracity to their bile. When SBVFT slandered Kerry they were attacking all of us as well.It is hurtful to see the above reference in your remarks.

Especially Kerry (since it's my understanding that Edwards wanted to fight, or at least not concede so quickly).

The only thing I can say is that we do not KNOW what Kerry is or isn't doing. Your opinion is just that, an opinion.

Oh, we have a much better idea than you're recognizing and acknowledging. He's done NOTHING, and all of his and his attorneys' public pronouncements so far have been weak, limp, basically useless -- and every single one of them designed to reassure the rightwing that he is NO THREAT to the re-inauguration of George Bush. People have parsed these various pronouncements twelve ways to Sunday, and still can't find any meat there. And that's because there is none. That's the record: nothing but a few trifling "me too" papers filed in OTHERS' lawsuits -- just enough to have it both ways, be engaged without being engaged.

And you're going way out of your way to find offense by comparing anything I said to the Swiftboat liars' rhetoric. It's not even based on an accurate reading of what I said -- do you understand that? I said that the last time he was a hero was AFTER Vietnam, referencing his anti-Vietnam War work. The Swiftboat liars concentrated on the war, not Kerry's post-service period that I know of. There was no quoting of "the enemy" at all (in fact, I come by my Kerry disdain quite on my own and well before the Swiftboat Liars were ever on the scene, thank you very little). I'd have expected better of YOU than to make spurious charges.

was reminicent of SBVFT. I am not going to belabor the point or bring up all things Kerry couragesously championed in his career. And I still feel we don't have the "whole" picture. You mentiom some filings and such but we KNOW nothing of what else might be happening. I think we should save the vitriol for the other side. JMHO.

I wasn't impressed with Kerry before the election and my expectations were so low that I never expected to be this disappointed.

is magnetic.

I'm sure that Uncle Karl would prefer us to focus on the past rather than the present and the future.

People are talking about another means of challenge that might be relevant to this discussion. David Lytel outlines this approach in an op-ed written for the Washington Post:

http://www.redefeatbush.com/downloads/insurrection.pdf

There are going to be some superbly depressed people come January 20th of next year.

I doubt there will be any change in the mandated outcome, but have to cheer anything that has the remotest chance of bringing the issue of fair elections to public attention. I'm a realist so I've already had the black dress cleaned and pressed.

I get it. Thanks

Sad to say.

....I honestly believe that it is too early to tell....The Jacobin spirit for change is heavily repressed by the media-whores....One thing is certain, the judicial gears are "slowly" moving and the "if,and, or buts" WILL be heard in court....The obstructionism by the courts/officials will be exposed for all to see, which is where the entire issue of BBV should have been all along....I choose to believe that the 2004 election Has been effected along with the previous Two Federal elections by JKs' "time-out" call regarding proprietary software....Exposure is the enemy of the GOP....

but last time I said something pessimistic, you guys nearly jumped down my throat.

So, I'll just keep quiet and when this falls flat - I'll just say - I thought so.

Geez!

are you guys having a pissing on things contest or have you just really not been keeping up for weeks?

and proof in da pie bushitler and dishonorable dick cheat'n no goods?

For the life of me, I don't understand why some people are drawn to discussion threads geared toward an opinion they know they're not going to agree with. Why don't they just bypass the thread without reading it?

Especially when posting in optimistic, hopeful threads, why are you surprised when your contrary, dismissive thoughts get negative feedback? I'm not saying it's wrong to disagree, but you seem offended when your negativity gets a rise out of someone.

I wonder what people are trying to accomplish when they post negative comments within a thread trying to keep hope alive, then act surprised when they get flamed. Deep inside, are they hoping that someone will convince them that they're wrong to feel pessimistic, or are they just wanting to bring everyone else down, too?

Well another was is quickly approaching but don't tell Ms.Brooks...LOL

I should have posted the above in the thread about KO/Kerry's lawyer (started by Faye): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=200295&mesg_id=200295&page=

Miss Brooks has pessimism down to an art.

LOL:spank: :beer:

not that I agree with her 100%, but I'm feeling a little bit pessimistic myself.

Sometimes reality makes me optimistic, sometimes not. Thats the nature of reality, it can't always be controlled.

Not even with all the tequilla in the world.

I've been noticing for awhile that she seems drawn to those threads that are focused on the positive, as though she's compelled to burst everyone's bubble. Some people get a big charge out of doing that. I think those who are that pessimistic should ignore the positive threads & perhaps start their own self-pity threads, especially those posters who get offended when they get flamed in return for their unconstructive comments.

I'm tired of wanting this more than he apparently does. And I refuse to ever again support a Senator that won't stand up and be counted on 1/6. This party is screwing us over big time and I've had it.

...it is hard work. It takes effort, time, emotional stamina. Sometimes people like John Kerry will help out. Sometimes they wont. That does not relieve any of US of OUR obligation to do OUR parts.

Eternal vigilance ands all that other patriotic stuff!

If they handed it to us on a silver platter it would not be a Democracy now, would it?

:dem:

Nor should I wait around for John Kerry to do something..or Howard Dean..or anyone else.

That was always Dean's message. Thanks for reminding me of what I already knew :)

makes sense. (especially because I happen to agree with it);)
And that is that Kerry has to work quietly in order to have his actions respected.
Think about how Rove strategy worked against Dean. Use an opponent's STRENGTH against him, not his weakness. So Dean's strength was enthusiasm and he was ruined in the press by "the scream'. Made to look like an idiot. (To those who think that way, IE: a lot of America)
I think if Kerry had been standing on a stump all this time, his strength (intelligence and experience) could have been ruined in the media as well.
The last time America really saw Kerry, he was kicking shrub's ass in the debates. That's a pretty good place to be. I think he has a better chance of getting ALL Americans to react to voter fraud if he maintains a certain distance from the issue until there's hard core proof that even the repukes can't deny.
I may be wrong...and this could just all be wishful thinking, but jumping up and yelling is not going to affect red America. Look at how Michael Moore is ridiculed, and he's fighting for the little guys who ridicule him !!!!!
Perhaps Kerry has learned from observing public reaction, that the only way to appear to have a legitimate argument in this country these days is to keep calm-no matter how outraged you are.
Then lay the proof in their hands and watch em' squirm. Whadaya think?

I thinkl that would be perfect.

I wish there were some evidence that this were true. All I really hear is that Kerry could be doing "X," might be doing "Y," and is rumored to be doing "Z."

I want to hear what Kerry is doping from John Kerry.

Then again, it may be that we already have heard from Kerry, didn't like what we heard, and keep listening till we hear something that we want to hear.

I that's true, we could be listening for a long time.

Read this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x206056

but thanks for the tip :)

I must be a glutton for punishment. I keep coming back to this site and reviewing the amazing display of hopefullness and expectation that somehow the 2004 US presidential election will be made right. Knowing a bit of US history, I wonder why would anyone ever expect honest elections in the USA, including me?

Our constitution gives us the expectation and hope of honest elections, but the reality has fallen far short. No sense recounting the grim history of US elections, but what is more important is that the crime and criminals be identified, the public educated and the electoral system be made impeccably honest, if this form of democracy is to survive our children.

I guess I keep coming back in the hope that somehow someone will lay bare the whole stinking electoral process here in 2004. I really do. And, I really beleive that those who have abused the extremely hard won right to vote are punished severely - held up in the public square for their evil doings. We expect a certain level of manipulating the electorate, but to consciously surpress the vote and then change the results after the votes are cast is immoral, and facistic.

I do hope that Kerry or William Pitt or Randi Rhodes or someone, or group, will unmask these crimes. I pray that one stinking senator will stand up for what is right on January 6th and simply do the right thing. That senator will go down in history as the most courageous, famous American Senator (Are you listening Barbara Boxer - I have voted for you every time and never asked for one thing, just this - stand tall - you have it in you to do so, and you're safe for six years, at least!