The time is NOW to start a REAL third party

Not with a whack-job like Nader. Not with fruitcakes like Ross Perot, or the Pot Smoking Party. It needs real marketing people to come up with a sellable name people would be proud to where on their t-shirts; real political operatives who know how to get things done; real money men who can bankroll it. It can't happen 8 months before the Jeb Bush coronation, it must start NOW, TODAY...we must start registering the new party members NOW, while we are still pissed off and energized.

Or we can roll over and wait for Hillary to get laughed off the podium while we sit like idiots once again and say "Wha'happened?"

Another is to take back the party from the inside.

I'll know which way I'll jump in about a week....meetings coming up,.

mathematically, with a "winner take all" electoral college system. I believe Instant Runoff Voting might be the answer to the 2 party monopoly.

we need to create a second party that offers a real alternative.

You missed the point...there needs to be a paradigm shift; forget what you know. FUCK THEM telling us what can and can't be done. If you have a charismatic, strong, articulate candidate (not Ralph Nutsuck or Ross Perot) and a shitload of money, and several million members, it no longer is a case of what THEY say we are allowed to do.

It becomes what WE say we ARE doing.

And we'll have to wait until a third party is getting enough votes to be able to make the legal case for the change. I do think the Greens are the best way to do that right now.

QUIT FUCKING SAYING WE CAN'T DO IT! They "Greens" have already lost all credibility. Period. I wouldn't join them...they've been tarnished in much same way the right tarnished the word "liberal."

We need to drop all connection with the status quo. That is what got us here. Millions upon millions of Americans are looking for NEW solutions, not the same leadership dickheads telling us what the rules are. This is supposed to be AMERICA, and anybody can run for president, remember?

I have to get more information about them. From my observation it looks like they are growing and viable.

Recall the federalists, and others. devolving, evolving, subjects of internal battles, external attacks.

If we need to clean house, we clean house. If the house refuses to be cleaned, I have no objection, in fact, I have every intention of gathering all true patriots, all believers in the democratic ideals, of fair minded, decent, honest individuals. Our platform?

Realistic economic policies, an altered stepped version of graduated/flat tax

Security from enemies within and without

Ecological policies that remove our oil dependence in 10 years; serious research and development of renewables, solar, clean and safe nuclear; clean water, and removal of all farm, waterway, mining and digging policies which are destroying our land. I'd start with a hog tax on all medium to large SUVs, plus a 50-75 cent per gallon surtax solely to pay for research and development of new energy sources, rebuilding intracity mass trans systems and stopping the endless road/gridlock cycle we see in every medium and large city.

Serious rebuilding of our justice and FBI/CIA/NSA arms. Forget about shoes in the airport, we need real security while protecting our hard-earned freedoms.

Civil rights. Removal of all intrusive laws which pander to any one small religious or political group, while insuring that the rights of all are not infringed. At the same time, unprotected, weak groups must be protected from the excesses of brainless majorities.

Schools. Since when has the department of education done anything except suck up federal funds and issue edicts? Shut it down, send the money back to the locals, let them teach for a change.

Arts. This administration has ignored the constitutional mandates of supporting the arts.

Science. Removal of all politics from scientific boards. Yes, ethics, and political decisions are important, but not at the research and writing levels. A wholesale change of what this group has done to our country's reputation and scientific base.

Elections. Stop all electronic voting without paper tracks. Stop all gerrymandering. Create commissions that set out fair, reasonable lines for all federal districts.

Crime. Indict Wolfowitz, Feith, Cheney, Rummie, Perle, and others who have damaged this country almost beyond repair.

We need to get realistic about things like guns and religion. They do have a place in our society, they are rooted in our history. For as long as I can remember, all we've done is bitch that dems can't support guns rights, that religion is bad bad bad...I'm an atheist, I yet I realize the importance of faith for so many. We need fresh ideas of inclusion, so a hard-working hunting church-goer feels his rights -- HIS CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS -- are being protected just as much as mine are.

We are not doing that now. We are fragmenting society into smaller and smaller groups. The GOP now consists largely of uneducated white males, according the post-election stats. We've pushed them away to the point that they vote for a moron because he'll stop men from kissing instead of a leader who will listen to their real concerns.

Your platform is great start, it draws from all across the spectrum. Cool.

the new party should take?

Moderate? More progressive/liberal?

Why not push one of the existing third parties, like the Green Party? Has that party failed already?

the official political structure in this country that will perhaps exert pressure on the Parties.

That's what happened prior to the New Deal and with the Civil Rights Movement. In some ways, progressives have become the victims of our own success and have given over too much of their grassroots power to government agencies. I believe William Raspberry once lamented that people too often looked to a government agency to defend and promote thier interests, instead of organizing and agitating for themselves.

The Green Party has the best shot at becoming a viable third party. Their numbers are growing and the amount of candidates they have is growing.

I think the only way the Dems can be saved is if they move back to the left-middle where they belong. I laugh when my fundie friends tell me John Kerry is soooo liberal--I tell them he's really conservative, its just that their own candidates are right-wing extremist fascists. They don't like that too much, lol.

I got into little spat yesterday with a Democrat who told me she believes the Democrats need to be more centrist, that they're alienating people because they're too far left.

:eyes:

I told her that from my perspective (and I am on the left) the Democrats are center-right and have been for some time now. The official political spectrum in this country ranges from far-right to centrist.

I Agree. A party dediecated to protecting the consumer from the corporations. A party dedicated to protecting the worker from exploitatiin by the corporations. A party dedicated to a free and honest media.

On edit:

A party dedicated to personal liberties.

Peace,Freedom, COoperation, and Harmony.

a second party? Partys don't matter unless we have a democracy.

When Teddy Roosevelt undercut the Republicans? Do we want that to happen to us?

while the conservatives place their votes into one massive party that consistently defeats all of them? Oh yes, count me in.

That would be especially interesting at the national level. If the third party candidate somehow garnered enough electoral votes so that nobody received a majority, each state regardless of population or number of representatives would send a House delegate to select the president from the three highest. With apparently more than half of the states firmly in the red, would you care to guess how this would generally turn out?

They've bought the courts. They've bought the media. This won't be easy or fast. But it must start somewhere. Don't look to a victory in 2008...the Corporatocracy has already sewn it up. We're turning the Titanic. You have to do it miles BEFORE you see the iceberg. We know the iceberg is on our radar screens, and we must adjust course NOW.

You still haven't addressed the problem of the American electoral structure. If another party runs and manages to divert enough of the vote to ensure that nobody draws 270, the decision is automatically forwarded to the House, which votes in state-by-state delegations. How would you surmount this, assuming that you don't want elections to be decided this way?

Right wing assholes have a tighter grip on the whole process.
It most likely will not matter any longer anyway.

we do no have a parliamentary system of government. You should of learned from the Nader debacle in 2000 that more factions do not work. With our constitution we have to decide who tho sleep with, as opposed to a parliamentary system where the elected reps who to sleep with. Instead of splitting up, we need to invite more people into our bed. People who may have many differences with us, but agree on core principles. We need to stay together as I think Bush is beginning to offend many real conservatives. Let them split up!

The party that should be blown up is the libertarian....and they need to realize that we are a rich nation and thus social spending is not bad...

basically the republicans continue to get into office talking like libertarians but acting like facists...

this libertarian party could talk like libertarians but act like social democrats who understand fiscal responsibility and that its not our job to police the world.

The answer is with the Libertarians and the Moderate Republicans who have left the GOP.

Hav been had by the corporations.

My parents both voted libertarian this year. It's not the party you want.

They believe in eliminated as many taxes as possible, if not all taxes. Thats point number one for them. They don't care dick about social stuff. If it were up to them they'd privatize all education, social security, health care, etc.

The only things they believe the government should be responsible for is basic infrastructure (ie roads) and defense.

Some even think police forces should be private, where you pay to be protected...if you don't pay they dont' come to your house when you call, or hit you with a stiff bill for doing so.

Seriously. You want no part of them. They'll never agree to any social spending.

Look, anybody who looks up the numbers knows that the red states are sucking off the federal teat at the expense of the blue states, their "anti big government" rhetoric to the contrary notwithstanding.

Well, give them what they say they want... good and hard. Shut down the various federal corporate-welfare programs, let the states pay for their own infrastructure, let the inhabitants of East Backscratch pay the real cost of delivering their mail and running their phone lines, etc. In short, leave the red states gasping in the reeds like a fish.

The best part is that it uses their own rhetoric, and will have the (at least initial, until they realize the trap they've walked into) support of the Pubbies who actually believe this stuff. Political judo.

The Conservative's learned something from Ross Perot -


I keep hoping the left learned something from Ralph Nader...

Let's get Roy Moore to run.

Neither party has ended abortion.

Gays are accepted in some places.

There is still no prayer in school.

The new third party should pull from the right.

They gained control of an existing party. We must do the same.

You should consider getting involved in the Dem Party at the local level. Get yourself elected as a precinct committeeperson til you learn the ropes. Get your foot in the door and then change the Dem Party from the inside.

You're thinking status quo, not fresh vision.

You somehow think that dividing into separate parties will result in victory.

And you want to dis me for thinking fantasy? Sorry, I won't be jumping on your Suicide Party bandwagon. This is the germination of an idea. Many good ideas have been posted here, and no one is claiming we've launched this new party here today. But "End Of All Hope" has already said it isn't possible.

Thanks for your input.

serve your interests or mine in the end. We should be focused on fighting the Republicans, not dividing and ultimately thrashing it out amongst ourselves.

...and they factor it into their planning. They sit back and watch us destroy each other.

They, on the other hand, move as one -- like a brick wall.

Think about the marketing, the draw. Who is going to be ashamed to say the support "the Constitution?" Or that they are "Anti-American." Our platform is already written. THE CONSTITUTION. Protecting the rights of EVERYONE, including the religious. Seriously. Think about it....

THINK ABOUT IT.

ENVISION IT.

It IS possible. It IS doable.

Right now is a different time in our history than any other. Everything we've done is wrong. Clean the slate. Start with new vision about what CAN be done, not what we're told we can't do.

First, simply the "American Values" aspect of it. We are for American Values, and it allows us to set a definition of what American values are.

Values is a big word...it is time for us to co-opt it and use it to define POSITIVE things. Much the way the right co-opted Liberal for "evil."

Marketing-wise, AVP is short, sweet, has a nice ring to it, can be made into a great logo...lots of positives here. Plus, with three letters, it lends it self to three colors...say...hmmm...red, white and blue?

Yeah...I like it!

further unite the democratic party and settle on the issues.

AGREED>>...TIME TO REVIVE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND MAKE IT ROAR>..


all this third party stuff will lead to what the repugs want....

upon which the GOP media will immediately pounce, the same way Kerry got labeled "liberal" because of his Massachusetts roots. That is why a clean break is needed.

instead of liberals. Liberal has been turned into a dirty word meaning one who wants intrusive,big government. There's no sense trying to educate them and redefine it.

I guarantee you can talk to at least 80% of republican voters about corporate influence, tax breaks for the wealthy, economic issues or even the war in Iraq ( with the informed ones) and they will agree with you.Where we lose them is god,guns and gays, all of which come down to a fear of a distant big government imposing foreign cultural values. How to solve this, imo, is to embrace States rights with regards to these cultural and moral issues. Howard Dean in fact did this to some extent with the issue of gun control.

'States rights' has ugly connotations dating most recently to the civil rights struggles of the 50's and 60's, but in reality at this time would benefit the progressive cause and blue states more so than the bigots who originally espoused them. Let red states ban civil unions and abortions, abandon science education and mix religion with their schools and public institutions. Then just sit back and watch as the exodus of educated professionals and the businesses that depend on them collapse their state economies.

"Let red states ban civil unions and abortions, abandon science education and mix religion with their schools and public institutions. Then just sit back and watch as the exodus of educated professionals and the businesses that depend on them collapse their state economies."

Practice what Bush "preaches." States rights. If Red State wants to ban gays, so be it. It is a STATE issue. The trouble comes when only a few states are left to carry the financial burden associated with caring for/educating/health care for the exodus of people from neighboring Blue State. But it can be worked out. I know it can.

You're right there are many things that would need to be worked out, but I'm leaning more & more to believe this would be the best direction to create a majority party. That and defining conservatives as what they really are,- those who wish to conserve the existing exclusionary power structure and inequitable wealth distribution.

That's my theory - doubt it will happen. But if a religious conservative ran in '08, it would split the conservative vote in a big way.

The Democratic Party has been giving ground for a generation, surrendering without a shot its great legacy to America.

The DLC, whether by design or accident, is a TROJAN devouring the heart of the party, turning it from blue to red, inside-out.

Two parties would be a fucking start.

Everyone gets his or her birthday as a paid holiday!

Free ice cream and cookies for all!

:dunce:

Literally...Nothing.
Just do it...Form a new socialist party...Force the dems to co-opt the issues, then we will have a real choice between corporate whores and a people's party.