UPDATE: BOXER STILL IN THE RING...

So indicates our source on the Hill. Unable to say more. She may back out -- but there are new indications she's seriously considering... I can't guess any more about what may happen...

However, don't want to get hopes too far up and then see nothing. Keep watch. Will let you know when/if we know more -- http://rawstory.com

If you really want Boxer on board, call, is what I'm hearing.

I have a feeling there is quite a bit of intimidation going on.

I e-mailed and called, though.

but I don't understand the possibility of "intimidation" - from who ??

She's just won a new 6-year term, she's a Democrat so she's not eligible for a committee chairmanship, and she's one out of 100 Senators - what could possibly be impeding her from doing something brave and historic, except that she feels the evidence isn't strong enough ??

Hopefully it's just a ploy to keep the pundits off-guard until the right time comes, but frankly I won't believe any Dem Senators will support Conyers until I see the news reports that it's actually happened.

I just worry about the 'if you do this,' 'I'll do that when you need something' kind-of-thing.

I definitely am not holding my breath. Just hoping and praying that some courageous soul will stand up for democracy in a big way.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=240746#240930

It includes tel/fax for DC, San Francisco, L.A., San Bernaradino and several other regional offices. If you can't get through to one, try another.

FAX 24 SENATORS here: http://www.lightwingarts.com/faxsenator.asp
===============================================================

You can fax all of them in just 2 minutes!!!! USE your own name and then Fax family and friends names to the senators:

you can FAX THESE PEOPLE IN ABOUT 3 MINUTES: Senator Bingaman (NM) Senator Boxer (CA) Senator Byrd (WV) Senator Clinton (NY) Senator Conrad (ND) Senator Corzine (NJ) Senator Dodd (CT) Senator Dorgan (ND) Senator Durbin (IL) Senator Harkin (IA) Senator Jeffords (VT) Senator Kennedy (MA) Senator Kerry (MA) Senator Landrieu (LA) Senator Levin (MI) Senator Lieberman (CT) Senator Mikulski (MD) Senator Reed (RI) Senator Reid (NV) Senator Rockefeller (WV) Senator Sarbanes (MD) Senator Stabenow (MI) Senator Wyden (OR)

That's alot of faxes!!

to see how much negative reaction she gets to the idea because all she's been getting is the affirmative reaction from activists trying to make this thing happen.

I had not called her or emailed her until that report came out. As soon as it did, I called her office, emailed her, and faxed her my opinion on the situation.

:shrug:

Only I was hoping the waters would be filled with friendly fish. ;)

to other Senators.

are fearful of?

I've read so much today, I forgot what you said ... sorry.

:hi:

you are our misfortune... Why don't you go to the "Campaign 06/06" section instead of disturbing our game (with mischievousness)? :-(

We really all believe that you are so smart, we really do!

I'm sure he comes off as smarmy on the phone as in his posts.

Reject fear! Reject Mindlessness!

Believe in yourself - Believe in your OWN ability to define right and wrong.

about to happen and I just have to pull that brake cord.

Further, can you explain when a better time might be? Can you think of a time when debate in both Houses of Congress would be mandated by a parliamentary action, and widely televised? Or do you think that cleaning up the election system is not that big a deal?

I never, ever, ever, ever understand where you are coming from. From one day to the next. No idea.

1) Debate is limited to two hours by law and no member may speak for more than five minutes. That gives us just enough time to come off as the conspiracy theorists the talking heads will paint us as.

2) There is absolutely no way to alter the outcome. The Congress WILL NOT CHOOSE the president this year because the electoral votes will stand. The challenge may be made, but it will not be upheld.

3) It guarantees we will lose the White House in 2008 after we win it and the Republicans will cite the precedent set by the Democrats in 2004 to accomplish it. They control the Congress and they can uphold a challenge to electors, thus throwing the election to the House and Senate where they control the outcome.

It's not just lose-lose. Doing this now is losing all the way around from a long term strategic point of view.

The better time to have this debate? Easy, during a filibuster of a judicial nominee. We bring this up and up and up during the first filibuster and talk it to death.

1) Debate is limited to two hours by law and no member may speak for more than five minutes. That gives us just enough time to come off as the conspiracy theorists the talking heads will paint us as.

Bullshit. I take it you have not read any of the Conyers report. There are serious accusaions in there - not theories - with eyewitnesses and proof. The alternative to talking about it you describe below is nonsense, as I will explain below.

2) There is absolutely no way to alter the outcome. The Congress WILL NOT CHOOSE the president this year because the electoral votes will stand. The challenge may be made, but it will not be upheld.

Thanks, Walt. I didn't know that because I just came down with the last drop of rain. OF COURSE it will not change the outcome. It WILL start a national dialogue on the need for election reform, with Blackwell starring as the main villain.

3) It guarantees we will lose the White House in 2008 after we win it and the Republicans will cite the precedent set by the Democrats in 2004 to accomplish it. They control the Congress and they can uphold a challenge to electors, thus throwing the election to the House and Senate where they control the outcome.

If we don't do something about the way elections are run, we won't win anything, ever again, except state offices in solid blue states...and that won't last long, either. Regardless, I have found your future-predicting abilities to be anaemic, to say the least, so pardon me if I say your #3 is pure crap speculation.

The better time to have this debate? Easy, during a filibuster of a judicial nominee. We bring this up and up and up during the first filibuster and talk it to death.

I'm actually laughing right now.

Come off it, Walt. Nobody covers what is said in a filibuster. That's because most filibusters are empty talk to run down the clock. The media says "There is a filibuster," but no description of what's being said is ever, ever offered.

You think that is the time? How about after an action by a Senator that is broadcast on every network because it hasn't happened since the 1800s. How about if Frist has his way, there won't even be a filibuster anymore.

Now is the time, Walt. Now or maybe never.

Sorry but you're wrong. How do you say in five minutes what is contained in the Conyers report?

On top of that, I've read the Conyers report. I don't buy it.

allot of logical sense.
I feel yours do not.

and so do I. I'm fighting it tooth and nail primarily from a long term strategic view.

or prayer or some other moral wedge issue. They usually don't realize it either. That's been my experience anyway. Nothing personal Walt.

like any other DUer.

We are going with how PEOPLE feel!! The majority of how people feel.

Are you seeing that your not the majority yet? Are you seeing that we the people believe, after 3 elections that stink, NOW is the time to discuss reform?? Not in 2008 when it's too late.

What are you afraid of? Really afraid of? It will tarnish the Dem's reputation of shutting up an taking it?

If we say nothing, we will continue to be the Lesser party, you must show strength and conviction in your ideals to ever convince anyone you mean what you say. That is nasty business of politics. *cough* look at how much criticism Bush is getting from the fundies for backing off the Gay marriage ban? You think he ever wanted it? Or did they see a good opportunity to dip into the Christan voting moral value?

No retreat, no surrender, it's not just Kerry's motto it's ours.

Noone, and I mean noone is buying it among the MSM. They will crucify the bulk of the report as fantasy.

Or the MSM's fault.

We have found the MSM to be a valuable, logical, reliable, trustworthy voice. Or something.

:eyes:

That if you don't have the goods the Media whores will chew you up and eat you alive. They will use you as long as its expeditious for their own ratings.

And since Conyers does not have the goods, the backlash from the media whores will be harsh. That does not even begin to consider the political damage that will be caused by this in future elections to the Democrats. This is free advertising for the Republicans.

You think "I actually voted for the $87 billion" was bad? Wait till we see the "I actually voted to throw out the Presidential election results" ads.

Can't do that if your half way across the world can you.


You think Kerry didn't know that? Know what was coming, hence why in Nov. he decided to be out of the country 3 days before the hearings started?

There is so much evidence in there, a blind man could see it and a five-year-old could understand it. Will is right. There is no better time than now, when the whole country is watching and listening.

whereby the actual results were affected. Not a shred.

If the game is 100-75 and there are 3 minutes left in the 4th quarter, the referees STILL have to call the goddam fouls! Capeesh?

will ever be legitimate ever again. This is likely to be a struggle for several years to come. it has to have a starting point in order to end. We choose the starting point and its here and now. Sit and wait your going to loose all, stand and fight and you have a chance. I won't live in fear of an election system, and I choose now to start this fight.

and have "election fraud 2004" labeled as the wildest conspiracy theory bullshit ever. Yep, that'll get us loads ahead of where we are today.

:eyes:

...on a corrupt foundation built out of mud. Walt still believes in the ultimate self-governing integrity of this system. He also appears to believe that the Republican party isn't already in full-out war against Democrats and liberal ideals. There is a reason why this contest option exists, and we need to "test the system". This will have no more negative impact than what the Repukes already have planned for "our side"...

is just enough to rope to hang yourself with.

And lets be realistic, what's in Conyers report is not serious enough to contest the election. Mostly speculation, and what real problems were documented don't reach a level where the election of Ohio should be tossed out. They didn't contest it in 2000 when there was real hard evidence of serious election problems and the margin was a couple of hundred votes.

you'd have seen that contesting the election isn't the point. You'd have seen the italic, bold and underlined sentence that said a Senator can stand up without stating that the wrong person won Ohio. They didn't put that in there for shits and giggles.

This stuff has to be talked about. You guys would trade away our best opportunity to do that because it isn't perfect enough, because you gamble on the idea that a better or at least equal opportunity will come someday in the future.

I pray none of you become paid Democratic strategists. This kind of vanilla bullshit is the reason we're getting rolled back..oh yeah, and because elections are fucked up. Shhhh...can't talk about that now. It'll make us sound *crazy*.

:eyes:

is the bigest strategic mistake that can be made for election reform. It will die as a fringe "conspiracy theorist" issue because of how the Democrats will be painted for contesting the issue.

Think of the sound bites that will come from five minute speeches, Will. Democrats will get decimated on this issue and election reform will not see the light of day any time soon.

Long term, it's a dangerous precedent to set. This will be the first time in history more than a single faithless elector will be challenged. The potential for future mischief based upon this precedent is abhorrent!

We all know the report and what Arnebeck is up to is about overturning the election. Your one sentence stands soley in a vast report written with one overwhelming conclusion, that the outcome of the election is NOT certain. Hell, even Kerry himself sent out an e-mail that the election is over, refuting the thrust of Conyers report.

You don't contest the election results of an entire state unless you think they should be tossed out at this point. That's what the contest means. No, you are talking about the disenfranchisment of an entire state, or even the entire country. You are asking Congress to take the place of 120 million voters and make the decision for them. I find that hugely offensive.

It's not just the plain vanilla strategists that are losing the elections, although they sure showed how to lose magnificently in 2004. It's also the single minded dogmatic activists that want to drive off the cliff without thinking the process out.

Where Conyer's report really lags is he makes no recommendations how to handle the aftermath of what he asks for. He suggests the electors for Ohio be contested and obviously thrown out. What then?

I have read the report. There are some very interesting and noteworthy allegations contained. I however did not see clear and convincing evidence that there was verifiable fraud, disenfranchisement or illegality. Several of the contentions were what I would term "debatable" concerning Conyers conclusions. Others were simply lambasting election proceedures that he disagreed with and portraying them as wrongful and illegal. Also I thought the rather free and easy way he threw around the number of voters affected by the various charges was unsubstaniated and open to criticism. I even found a couple of blatant inaccuracies which tend to diminish the validity of the report as a whole.

Now granted, I looked at this report thru a highly critical eye because I believe that's what average Joe Voter and the MSM will do. He used too much rhetoric and not enough substantiation. I have serious doubts that this will satisfy the the scrutiny of either considering the the enormous ramifications that this contest entail. This is a precedent setting move, one which will produce tremors for years to come. Frankly, the potential downside exceeds the upside and the entire business makes me more than a bit queezy

I'm not saying "don't investigate any further". But the certification of presidential elections is a bridge we can ill afford to burn!

because if Boxer fails to stand up after all, it'll be nice to see the silver lining.

And those are only the most glaring issues. I see dozens of reasons why this is a really bad idea.

Sun Tzu is ery applicable in this situation. This is like attacking a walled city that has a force five times your force defending it!

and we will lose 2006 and 2008, just like we did in 2002 and 2004. Did you tell everyone in 2000 that it was a bad idea to fight? Did you discourage them then. If so, then you are as responsible for the crisis our nation is in as is the weed.

I very strongly prefer it be conducted in a thorough non-partisan, non-theatrical way.

If you prefer a cursory,partisan, grandstanding type of token election reform, contesting the election is the way to accomplish this.

Symbolism is a much a part of politics as it is a part of the fabric of the USofA.

Tell me when is a better time to take a stand?

I want results, symbols dont fix things.

we address election reform?

Symbolism causes reaction and often results. Play coy if you like, symbolism is as important to the political culture as is the lobbyist and the contribution.

they pass laws and stuff right?

Plenty of time to make reforms real. I don't see the need right now to rush it and fuck it up.

The dems are crippled and it will only get worse, unless of course they kiss ass and don't stir things up and keep the repugs happy and do just like you suggest, be good little boys and girls. Don't rock the boat.

now let's look at what you have:

the GOP pissed at you, guaranteed to snub efforts to reform elections

it's still a minority party

what do you have now?

What do you have? If not now, when?

Sure the heck didn't deal with it in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 - why the heck not now!

but you always catch more flies with sugar than vinegar

You have to take a stand, you have to take the risks and be willing to fight for what is right.

I don't want flies, I want paper ballots and I want them to prove with what they have that the election was legitimate.

count period.

fact that once you do that, you "poison the well" - not one Republican will touch the issue of election reform or investigation of 2004 elections. I'd like to know how these people who are pining for the objection to happen on the 6th intend to investigate the election through Conyer-like "hearings" that have absolutely no power and are reduced to begging for answers from Blackwell who ignores them completely?

for what is right.

This is also about balance of power between branches of government.

The Congress is the only branch of government with an effective check on questionable presidential elections.

The courts can not do it. Bryer pointed out how helpless the Courts were as a check on questionable elections. There is no time for the courts to be an adequate check in this situation.

The executive can not chect itself.

Congress has to provide that check.

What better time or place for Congress to begin it's role as a check on executive power than tomorrow? Standing up to contest an election will be a check. Not all checks are sucessful. But tomorrow such a check may bring about the attention required to make an effective check on down the road. It has to start somewhere and sometime.

When you have the law on your side, pound on the law.

When you have the facts on your side, pound on the facts.

When you have neither, pound on the table.

We have the law, the facts, and dammit, we are going to pound on the table anyway.

"It's not the reality, it's the perception". And, without more demonstrable BonaFides , I have a feeling that this could be perceived very negatively

How was Congress perceived when Michael Moore showed the world that no one would stand up last time?

Do we make it two for two -- cowards once, cowards twice?

for a missed opportunity then with an ill advised move now is sorta like sopping up the spilt milk with your boss's $150.00 silk tie.

Because there will be no place to wear it, might as well get some use out of it.

stop looking at it from the point of view of the winner or the loser.

Look at it from the point of view of the voter!

Any challenge is a success! The MSM can not ignore this historic event. All of our collective evidence will now be spotlighted by this event!





"Truth is by nature self-evident. As soon as you remove the cobwebs of ignorance that surround it, it shines clear." M. Ghandi

They can see how much real damage this could do to the opposition

I deeply feel that if we do not do everything within our power to bring the election irregularities to the "group think" now, then our democracy is toast.

We simply IMHO, have to do everything we can NOW. . .or just forget 2006, & 8.

to tell her not to stand? does she need a democrat to tell her not to stand for our democracy when fellow democrats were disenfranchised. regardless what you believe people of color got fucked! OK. they deserve to be heard. if you dont beleive or care you need not call but you dont need to hurt our cause.

i can never understand a dem who fights against our best interest. do you think a republican would put up with this for one minute?

for NOT OBJECTING is vastly important, especially since my argument centers on the long term strategic losses I feel the Democratic Party will encounter from the move.

And I see it as fighting FOR our best interest.

who you put up to run. run Jesus Christ and jeb will win. you are wrong. without challenging this election we will never ever be able to fix things.

we can not approve ohio's vote it isn't legitimate. it would be putting a mark of approval on Blackwell and saying he did a good job. can not happen.

let this happen and let the congress put put bush in office. he didn't earn this election.

if you are a democrat act like one and stand up for your fellow democrats who were left out in the rain in Ohio, peoples who's votes were not counted. stand with us.

or perhaps let us do our thing and you can do yours. we have that big tent thing. stand in the corner!:o

to fix a headache!

War is peace
Not fighting for our best interest is fighting for our best interest.
Not standing up shows we're taking a stand.

Yeah, sure. Want to buy the Brooklyn Bridge?

I take a long term strategic view to the sort of showboat grandstanding this move will be.

Lets just wait and see what happens. Less than 24 more hours.

I am pretty sure MSNBC wouldn't have run an unconfirmed story (though I didn't hear Chip Reid's report myself). Conyers seemed pretty sure.
KTF.

until they are standing front and center tomorrow.

I agree!

Someone please explain to me why we need to beg our representatives to uphold Democracy and the Constitution? Isn't that what they swore to do when they were elected BY US? GRRRRRRRR

This is what America is supposed to be about. Our representatives represent us. They can't very well do that if they don't hear from us.

Why do we even HAVE TO ASK? Don't they know what Democracy and the Constitution is all about? We should not have to ASK! Don't they know right from wrong? We really voted for the wrong people.

Not yelling at you personally.

you should start a thread on this

Logic tells me that declaring yourself before the 6th...

would be a mistake. Lets just wait and see what Thursday brings...I know patience is a tough one right now...but I believe it is the wisest choice. Ours is a moral and just cause. For now, this is what sustains me.


WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???

There are pains here, but you are NOT one of them :hi:

I will never stop fighting for the integrity and honor of my country!

...watch C-SPAN and see what happens.

It's after 5:00 PM on Capitol Hill. She is not going to answer one way or another until tomorrow.

Hey, this is our SPECIALITY -- WORLD WIDE WEB...
let's USE our abilities to get the word out!!!
For those of you who can't bein Washington tomorrow,
you can at least spread the word ELECTRONICALLY!!
I have sent out the Conyer Senate Letter to 30 friends
throughout Europe, Thailand and Australia. Get
the word out!! FAST! If you were a U.S. Senator with
the WHOLE BLINKING WORLD LOOKING DOWN YOUR THROAT,
wouldn't you be a little bit concerned? We can make it
happen! Get the vision in your head of an entire planet
watching to see what happens in session tomorrow in
Washington... with them all thinking, "Let's see what
American Democracy is all about!" Phew!
Talk about a WORLD court.
Shazam!

they are laughing at us.

i dont expect us too always agree in this forum but this is so important and so simple i wish the people in here could just agree that yeah this is important. and bush will go down this year. one way or another. this is just a start. we must take away that smirk. he does not have a mandate he has a fraud. and a lie.

are taken seriously. While we hear much about partisanship in the House and Senate, there are Senators who have developed good working relationships with the REPUBLICAN controlled Senate and House, and have been able to work to improve programs and introduce legislation that passed.

However, if their is a challenge to the EV's that working relationship will be tremendously harmed, and any input from any Dem senators who can make a difference in legislation and help mold it will be damaged. We will go back to pure partisanship and with the strong hold the repubs have they will steamroll the Democratic opposition. I believe even those moderate Repub Senators who have sided with Dems will not any more.

So while we my gain a temporary victory, we are going to cause a severe setback to our cause, which i thought was election reform.

If they don't fight this they might as well hang it up. Look at it as an opening, which it is.

p.s.it's a rough game lately so get used to it.

Ummmmm.....I've got news for you. Democratic issues already AREN'T taken seriously. What country are you in?

Hello, what issues were taken seriously that were not turned around to make it better for wealth and privilege. The corporatacracy of the two parties don't care what an overwhelming majority of the common Jane and Joe would desire. The vast majority of the political bureaucrats figure the less give to the general population the better for them and their corporate constituents that put them there.

I have always been figuring our government was concocting ways to screw us all in one way or another all along, and haven't found myself wrong about that yet

Lately if you haven't noticed they have even just about been ignoring everybody on full tilt and just check the Iraq debatable if you need evidence. So if you were smart you would have already taken the blindfold off and the earplugs out and would of stopped trying to hand them out to others because they serve no purpose anymore. You have nothing to gain with line of thought and most others will pass you by because conventionality went out the window a long time ago


Washington Carpetbaggers Keep the Working Class Divided

It was corporations using third and fourth party lobbyists that paid for the campaign machines that elected the last 25 years of Washington carpetbaggers.

Thank you for proving the point I have been making for the last ten years.

If the Corporatacracy that has replaced Democracy can keep the working class arguing amongst itself about essentially abstract concepts like "crime" and "success", then they can busy themselves creating a Patrician class immune from law or consequence.

The abandonment of the working people of the United States was accomplished with the full knowledge of both parties.

It was corporations using third and fourth party lobbyists that paid for the campaign machines that elected the last 25 years of Washington carpetbaggers.

There is absolutely no distinction in either party as far as blame is concerned.

The only thing that matters is which politician is going to be the first to admit to what has happened and regardless of which party the person belongs to the American people will decide what will happen after that and to whom.

We can argue the merits of either parties ideologies when our childrens future is no longer in the hands of madmen intent on enslaving them all.

(snip)
http://www.rescueamericanjobs.org/stories/index.php?workers=washington-carpetbaggers-lobbyists

NO MERCY!!

She needs to hear from us....

...go for it. Very pleasant person answered.

I commiserated with them on this rough week, then let them know that this is hard for all of us, not only Barbara. And that she will have our support when she stands up.

Good job, you all. Those people were so worn out they could hardly get their words out.

Did you get the impression they hadn't seen an uprising like this in a long time? That this was something special, which would be hard for Ms. Boxer to ignore?