I am amazed - AMAZED - at the way this place operates sometimes

For two weeks it was "No, no way, no Senator will ever stand up, doooooom..."

And now that it looks as though there is a chance a Senator will stand up, it is "Baaaaaad, baaaaad, it isn't the right venue, doooooom..."

And no, the people who are saying this stuff here are not evil Freeper infiltrator trolls.

Here's the news, folks:

Election fraud and irregularities require public discussion. The current GOP congressional majority will never ever ever ever ever ever allow a discussion. We have to force it, and this is how, and this is the time. Those who want to wait for a better time will be waiting until they are handing out ice-skates in Hades.

Millions of minority voters got screwed AGAIN in this election, and I will be damned if I will equivocate, strategize, back off, or worry about the possibility that someone might say something mean about us.

The most faithful and reliable Democratic voter bloc got the shaft AGAIN, and if you think we need to wait, hide, back off or otherwise waste what could be a golden opportunity for a national dialogue, then I don't want to know you, because you make me ashamed.

Hastert and Frist, but their voicemail boxes were full :evilgrin:

"User" puts on a whole new meaning.

we better fight now or we may not get another chance

To Hell with political considerations.

This is real life, not politics.

Lots of positive energy and good ideas for action everywhere I turn.

I've been reminding Senators that it's not about unseating the President and Vice President it's about upholding the Constitution. I've also been reminding them that if we can't get it right, how are we supposed to be a "beacon of democracy" for other countries.

I think 2000 was the time and our Senators let us down, I believe 2004 is another opportunity for democracy. Tomorrow we will see if any of our Senators still believe in democracy.

that my representative in congress has signed the letter with Conyers. If your reps. have done the same I should think a congratulations and thank you letter are in order.
If your reps have done nothing I think a nice FU letter is in order.

As I told a friend, "next time" is now!

Yur right...weird things are happening....

in consciences too. from what i read (i read weird stuff) its possible.

Keep up the great work.

Believe in YOU - that's where Democracy starts!

Right now this place seems to be buzzing with people calling and faxing. I believe we may be getting our asses in gear.

Should we wait for another election and watch the same thing happen yet again? I don't think so.

(I think I'm getting too old for this shit. :-))

all I can say is -- if we don't address it now we will never have fair elections and we will lose more seats in 2006 and the presidency in 2008, even if Elvis or Jesus or Dale Earnhardt is our candidate.

Election Reform -- required paper trails -- uniform rules for all states relative to the ballots and conducting federal elections.

We have to address it now. They didn't adequatly address it in 2000 and look what happened in 2002 and 2004.

This is what I said when I called my Senators..except the part about, erm, Elvis, Jesus, and Dale Earnhardt....

I don't understand the idea of waiting for a "better opportunity". What worse can happen to the Dem party than stealing our elections from under our noses?

I include those for the folks here who believe the election would have been won if their primary candidate had won the primaries. :thumbsup: May I take this time to personally thank you for your calls and hard work! :toast:

I have sent my Rep a letter and told her to stand up with Conyers. She's a CBC member, she damn well SHOULD.

I have also faxed Reid, Boxer, Chafee, Nelson, Byrd, and Clinton. I'll do some more later tonight or tomorrow.

The naysayers are in the minority here IMO. They are vocal, but there are fewer of them than there are of us.

I've made as many phone calls as I possibly could.

People are calling, faxing and emailing Senators. Democracy at work. It seems to be noticed. Conyers mentioned to Randi Rhodes that the phones on Capitol Hill have been ringing off the hook.


Each call that I made, just before I hung up, I'd ask the aide on the phone if they've received many calls about this. Each and everyone said Yes!

So please Will, don't be so down. This will come to the forefront of public debate. This cannot be under the rug swept.

I am pumped, optimistic, and in DC. Annoyed with knuckleheads. It'll pass. ;)

the phones are ringing off the hook! Power to the people has they use to say. We don't need no stinking MSM to know what's really going on. Reminds me of that Leonard Cohen song, Everybody Knows.

Ive had a Leonard Cohen earworm all day today!!

I haven't heard this one set to music but the words are great and very appropriate for the present moment. Thanks for turning me on to it.


<snip>

Sail on, sail on
O mighty Ship of State!
To the Shores of Need
Past the Reefs of Greed
Through the Squalls of Hate
Sail on, sail on, sail on, sail on.

It's coming to America first,
the cradle of the best and of the worst.
It's here they got the range
and the machinery for change
and it's here they got the spiritual thirst.
It's here the family's broken
and it's here the lonely say
that the heart has got to open
in a fundamental way:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

It's coming from the women and the men.
O baby, we'll be making love again.
We'll be going down so deep
the river's going to weep,
and the mountain's going to shout Amen!
It's coming like the tidal flood
beneath the lunar sway,
imperial, mysterious,
in amorous array:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Sail on, sail on ...

I'm sentimental, if you know what I mean
I love the country but I can't stand the scene.
And I'm neither left or right
I'm just staying home tonight,
getting lost in that hopeless little screen.
But I'm stubborn as those garbage bags
that Time cannot decay,
I'm junk but I'm still holding up
this little wild bouquet:
Democracy is coming to the U.S.A.

Leonard Cohen

I couldnt remember all the lyrics to this when I mentioned it earlier...
and having just read about 10 threads off the front page here in election results (twice! sooo much happening!)... Im just touched you put them here...

oh geeze Im bawling!:cry: :cry: :cry: :hug: :grouphug: :loveya: for whatever that means!

I just know that starting tomorrow we start getting answers one way or the other, the jig is nearly up and soon we'll know where we stand!!

I think the election reform movement needs this as its anthem!!


thanks! Im still crying...

I didn't mean to make you cry?

I hope you're feeling better.

:hug:

also like everyone else here my emotional strings are completely strung out...

I cant think of a more pertinent song, and just seeing those words! well the flood gates have wanted to open for a while now so at least Ill be clear headed tomorrow!

Thanks again

:hug:

When I am on this board, I hear "Let the River Run" in my head. It has become my personal anthem for this cause.

Carly Simon - Let The River Run Lyrics

We're coming to the edge,
running on the water,
coming through the fog,
your sons and daughters.

Let the river run,
let all the dreamers
wake the nation.
Come, the New Jerusalem.

Silver cities rise,
the morning lights
the streets that meet them,
and sirens call them on
with a song.

It's asking for the taking.
Trembling, shaking.
Oh, my heart is aching.

We're coming to the edge,
running on the water,
coming through the fog,
your sons and daughters.

We the great and small
stand on a star
and blaze a trail of desire
through the dark'ning dawn.

It's asking for the taking.
Come run with me now,
the sky is the color of blue
you've never even seen
in the eyes of your lover.

Oh, my heart is aching.
We're coming to the edge,
running on the water,
coming through the fog,your sons and daughters.


It's asking for the taking.
Trembling, shaking.
Oh, my heart is aching.
We're coming to the edge,
running on the water,
coming through the fog,
your sons and daughters.

Let the river run,
let all the dreamerswake the nation.
Come, the New Jerusalem

Senator will stand up? Don't get Will's post...but whatever. It's a good "pump the troops who are flagging" post. I just missed all the naysayers that Will saw. :shrug:

i got so upset in another thread i dont know what i posted but i know i used the f bomb. we are doing the right thing. This must be done.

it is the only way to ensure we will get the attention this deserve. Will thanks for taking the time out to say it and say it well.

We are Democrats. we need to be a solid block right now. please.

"The most faithful and reliable Democratic voter bloc got the shaft AGAIN, and if you think we need to wait, hide, back off or otherwise waste what could be a golden opportunity for a national dialogue, then I don't want to know you, because you make me ashamed."


Do you feel the same way about John Kerry?

Don't you think his presence tomorrow would have facilitated the discussion we need?

If he doesn't want to man up and get in this fight, so be it. I can't do anything about that, and I am not going to let it stop me. There is still a fight to be had.

EOM

But not this.

I must have gotten a different letter than the one everyone else got, because mine said "demand that congressional leaders hold full hearings."

I'm surprised you'd suggest he's not in the fight. :shrug:

The massive calling campaign that has been spurred on by his communication to his faithful supporters isn't "nothing." I believe the call to action was intended to light a fire under the asses of our senators for the very action tomorrow that he is not FORMALLY taking part in.

Are you still buying the champagne? :)

I was Under the impression that we could no longer introduce legislation?
Any way you slice it, this email is weak. JMHO

I vigorously disagree. :)

(What do you mean by "we could no longer introduce legislation"?? I'm confused by this part.)

Getting it voted on is another thing, and winning the vote, especially if they manage to kill the fillibuster - is not very likely.

2 hours of hearings in the House and 2 hours in the Senate.

That's more than we've gotten out of the Republican-ruled two houses so far.

So he runs off to Iraq?

You don't deserve him.

otherwise we ALL lose. IF we fight and lose it is not the same as not having tried. If they steal it... they steal it. But ONLY after we do everything possible to prevent it.
Kerry is trying to live to fight another day. His Life, His Call.
Sure as Hell not the one I would make but I am not there.

My Rep, Peter DeFazio/Dem/Or signed.

Love him!

If not us, who?

I agree 100%

There is a time to stand up for what is right! What better time than the present?

this is it--dig in your heels! I'm calling and faxing, and I haven't done anything like this since the 60's & 70's! I get so nervous I almost start to hyperventilate--but I'm doing it anyway. Don't give up--and remember that tomorrow may just be the beginning of something (I remember Watergate, that was slo-mo).

No worries mate. Most of us totally agree with you and are together on this action. The jammed phone lines, emails and faxes are a pretty good indicator.

Can't wait to hear back from DC - I'll be with you spirit. Be careful out there!

is allowed to stand, I want no part of any other. "It's time to stand firm and together we will make history..."

Somebody give this man an award!

My father had a wooden plaque on the wall of his workshop. Carved into the wood were these words:

"Nolo Contendre Bastardos!" (sp?)
Translation: Don't let the bastards get you down!

Along with a saying written on paper tacked to it that said:

"When you are up to your ass in alligators, it is difficult to remember that your main objective was to drain the swamp!"

(Thanks Dad!)

My father had that on an ashtray, also depicted a cowboy riding a horse going over the side of a mountain. I have thought of that soooo many times recently!

A *vocal* minority wants us to shut up. The same minority that has ALWAYS pooh-poohed fraud as even a possibility.

I checked in with Max Baucus (Sen. D-MT) No formal statement about it, but they took my comments. Wish I was THERE, instead of freezing up here.... Get to your feet people!!!!! Thanks for all you've done today, DU! Keep it up.
KJ

It's WE the people...and it's our vote, our government and our country!

Restore democracy NOW!!!

Ice skates, I mean.
This is indeed the time.

And I'm entitled to mine. I think you've mis-characterized at least some of us who believe that contesting the Ohio election could very well be detrimental. There is no guarantee that this won't badly backfire instead of waking people up to the flawed process. I understand the desire to stand up and alert people, but I don't see what can be gained. I don't see this as leading to a public discussion. Maybe I underestimate the public. If it works out, I'll be the first to gladly say I was wrong, and if it doesn't I'll take no pleasure from that fact.

I can't say I love all the black and white thinking around here, the foul epithets thrown at Senators who won't refuse to certify, the accusations of freeper to those who aren't on board with the conventional DU wisdom. And though you refrained from calling anyone a freeper, you fall into the category of those who summarily dismiss not only the worth of the arguments against yours, but those making the arguments as well. Shame on you.

kettle.Will did NOT mis characterize anything ! He spoke from the heart and he is entitled to his opinion.And he is entitled to a bit more credibility than most as a result of his efforts.We ALL owe Will a dept of gratitude!

of other folks' points of view. I've been pretty moderate and respectful in my language. Yes, I've gotten snarky with people who've attacked me, but it's happened rarely, and I've attempted a reason discourse. I don't think people who are mounting this effort aren't worthy of respect for their beliefs and I've tried to express that, while at the same time elaborating on my misgivings. I admire your passion even if I don't share it. What I don't admire is the refusal to accept that those who don't agree with you are just as patriotic and just as dedicated to the issues.

...BushCon world is just a fantasy--a remnant of the past. We have lost our right to vote. Don't you realize that? What good is strategy?

TWO fraudulent elections, the second even less transparent than the first. How can this not be protested in every way possible?

Prove to me that your vote, or anyone's vote, was counted.

Prove to me that Bush won.

Prove to me that Kerry lost.

Where are the numbers? Where did you get them from? What is their provenance? Can you defend them as real?

It was a fraudulent election going in. And we've found out just what that means, to have a fraudulent election SYSTEM.

Illegitimate government, unrepresentative of the people. No "consent of the people." BushCons thugging around, stomping on Democrats, forcing a radical agenda, killing over 100,000 people in Iraq, and likely planning to kill hundreds of thousands more elsewhere, as they gobble up the last oil and crush any opposition. Almost 60% of Americans polled say they are STILL against the Iraq war. And only 48% approval of Bush--a miserable approval rating for a president who supposedly just won an election. You cannot tell me that the people chose this government!

And you want our representatives NOT to protest, loudly, firmly? Put these Cons on notice we will no longer take this? And utterly condemn their suppression of black voters, whose struggle for the right to vote is one of the finest events in the history of our democracy?

I think you don't understand how serious this crisis is.

attempt to overturn the election. It will be up to those who can to speak up after Bush is confirmed, like Jesse, Rep. Conyers, etc.. They will have to steer the conversation where it needs to go with strong and loud voices.

However it happens, the conversation and national debate must begin now on how to have fair and open elections.

By making all these calls, the emails, the Fax's. We give them a way out. They can say they were bombarded and are standing up for what their constituents want if nothing else.This is a comeback to the wing nuts that cannot be dismissed.

time to make this big of a historic difference. Agree with Will on this and thanks for all that you do. This effort, tomorrow Matters to now and future generations more than any appearance of politically knowledgeable savvy posturing. Do it, get involved, make a difference. Count me in.

We've written and called our Congress Reps and Senators, and all the other ones too.

But, I'm still not willing to give up on Kerry, and I'm still holding onto my thread of slim hope there. I just can't allow myself to believe he walked away, not when he has the history he does, and I will happily take my lumps if I'm wrong. And no need to shift this conversation to Kerry, that's been done to exhaustion.

Making a difference here, in my life, my kids, my grandkids and our kids deployed in Iraq, scheduled for 2nd tour in short few months.

I T M A T T E R S !!!

Again and again till it moves again.

...for those who feel it's a "losing proposition"...

1. This is about our Democracy.
2. People need to be aware of what really happened -- even if you choose to not call it "fraud" -- it was still highly irregular and NOT something that we should all sit back and sigh and say, well, maybe next time...
3. Whoever is involved in this -- be it over-zealous Bush/Cheney supporters, or something more sinister.... needs to know that we will not take this sitting down.
4. Whenever a collective gathers together things change. It may not be tomorrow, it may not be in 2005 -- but if WE are not satisfied with how our government is being handled, if WE think that people should be held accountable for their actions, then WE need to take a stand in order for the people who represent us know that we are not pleased.
5. Would election reform happen without a Senator standing? Perhaps -- but NOT the way it should be discussed and debated and decided on. If one or more Senator actually listens to us and stands -- the American people who don't know about this mess will finally hear about it, and, given enough education and room to express their opinion, we all will be a part of the process.

:hi:

injustice every single time it occurs, no matter if we can win or not. We must voice objections every time our civil liberties are attacked-- EVERY TIME!!!!! Elected officials that do not fight for civil liberties must NOT BE RE-ELECTED!!!!

First they came for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.
Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Catholic.
Then they came for the Muslims
and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Muslim.
Then they came for me,
and by that time there was no one
left to speak up for me.

by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945
modified by Amy Fader, 2005

:D

I agree completely.

This is OUR"you are with us or against us " moment! Thank you Will!

I couldn't agree more!

And leave the board free for the, uhm "pragmitists". :grouphug:

Thanks to ya Will!:)

I don't know if people (in general) are feeling tired of politics, lazy or it's the MSM Lockdown on the subject, but this is the closest we've come to having the issue raised in an official meeting of Congress and we can't afford to let it pass.

I respect the concerns expressed by some on DU, but I don't see any indication that we will ever have a better opportunity than this.

Anyone who has called or written reps, talked the ears off of people (like-minded or not), emailed, or helped bring this issue to the surface in any way, should feel pretty good about their efforts. What has been accomplished by so many, or so few, however you want to think about it, is pretty incredible. What may take place tomorrow is not a small thing. Kudos to all who have worked so hard. There is still plenty to do, but this is a big step in the right direction.
:grouphug:

and don't forget.....what are they hiding?:think:

So we have come full circle. Yesterday it was "Naysayers" and several other not so clever euphemisms.

Let's see what kind of "discussion" there is tomorrow. If any Senator does stand up (which I highly doubt), my prediction is that he/she will be mocked mercilessly as a tinfoil hat wearing nutjob.

and those that will NEVER work with him or vote for him anyway? Do you even realize how insulting the above remark is to those of us who are working very hard on this issue? You are casting us as a lunatic fringe (tinfoilhat wearing nutjob) minority. I am perfectly rational .I am NOT a minority and I believe that a Senator's oath to protect the constitution also includes protecting the vote.I believe if we do not stand up to this flawed election we will lose the opportunity and we will lose democracy. I am sorry you think business as usual is more important and do not agree.

Election reform is serious business and I am certainly not suggesting that is the work of tin foil hatters. However, carrying on as though an objection tomorrow will be some kind of watershed and in many cases stating that the election will be overturned is delusional.

I believe that if there are objections it will hurt the Democrats who will be mocked and scorned as nutjobs because there is no proof of fraud.

And please don't tell me to Google "2004 election fraud" for proof as someone did yesterday.

1. No one involved in this on the congressional level - be it Conyers or Tubbs-Jones or the Judiciary office or anyone else - sees this as a means to overturn the election. I guaran-fuckin-tee you that if a Senator does stand up, the first thing out of his/her/their mouth will be, "I do not wish to imply that the wrong man got elected in November. Bush won the election. Of that there is no doubt. But..."

2. There are way way way way more than enough outright examples of bullshit manipulation of polling stations, absentee ballots, voter registration forms, optical scanner malfunctions etc. to warrant a high-level discussion on the matter in congress. MATTERS LIKE THIS IS WHAT CONGRESS IS THERE FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Objecting to the election is not the proper way to do it and will put the focus on just how crazy they are to object instead of what reforms are needed.

45 Dem Senators certainly have the power to bring election reform legislation to the floor of the Senate and get it fully debated.

Trying to do that in the limited scope of debate about an objection to the election will accomplish nothing and may even give Repubs the excuse in the future that these issues have been debated and rejected already and need no further debate.

More likely, imo, is that if there is an objection tomorrow in the Senate there won't be any debate at all and the Repubs will use Senate rules to disallow the objection - then no debate, no vote, nothing but embarrassment. Let's see who is right.

Where? There's a majority that doesn't want to hear this. It will never get out of committee, never come to a debate, much less a vote. Unless it is forced.

What rules do you refer to? I know of no rules that allow the stifling of a constitutional process. If the had the time, perhaps they'd have reworked them, but the rules on the books now say what they say. Two hours.

They can shut down the government any time they want with filibustering until they get a debate if they believe that voting rights are the most important issue on the agenda between now and the next election cycle.

As for the rules, when an objection is made by a representative and a senator the first thing that will be done is to determine if the objection is a proper one within the meaning of the federal statute. If it is not then there will be no debate and no vote on the objection. The objection will be ruled as "out of order." Now, since you know so much about how congress works, tell me how the Dems can overrule such a ruling by the chair? With what votes?

during a budget debate that has military or social program appropriations involved, you will give the same cautious counsel. No, no, we can't do it now, they'll say mean things about us because this budget bill is too important.

Abd, by the way, Frist's first order of business in this congress will be a push to do away with the filibuster entirely, so they can ram through the judicial nominations.

Any other bright ideas?

don't you know the two hours of debate are the ONLY opportunity we will ever have again to address election reform ;)

puhlease

do you?

What is the rationale to seeking a contest of the electors?

Using the moment for political grandstanding?

You cant possibly believe that the two hours allotted for debate can possibly do any justice to election reform and the time needed to seriously investigate?!

And to believe that the minority party is utterly powerless to pursue election reform is to me a sign of weakness.

Today, we may not yet be able to say the wrong man won the election....BUT we are also a long way from being able to say who did win.

I'm hoping that, soon, congresspersons and Kerry will stop saying that we KNOW Bush really won the election . If we believe there is fraud, POTENTIAL for massive fraud, significant disenfranchisement, and non-transparent process then we can't also believe the election has integrity. We can't say we have no faith in the process and then turn around and say we trust the outcome.

We don't know how much fraud there is. We just don't know, and that's the point.

That's why Kerry's statement on Nov 3 rings hollow: that his attorneys looked at the situation the morning after the election and determined there was not enough fraud to flip the election is not believable!

I agree that the general matter of vote manipulation is huge and fundamental to our identity as a nation (although up through today, you wouldn't think anyone but Conyers, Rhodes, and DU'rs thought this) and I fervently hope that the issue is thoroughly and fairly addressed in 2005, beginning tomorrow. HOWEVER......also starting tomorrow, let's not be so quick to validate the election outcome.

....the NY senate race is being held up in court. This is the race where a handcount probably flipped the decision to a democrat when IT WAS FOUND THAT NEARLY ALL MACHINES TURNED UP ADDITIONAL DEMOCRATIC VOTES.

This obvious non-random error is not being discussed yet. I believe that we won't hear more about it until after inauguration because if this case proves tampering was likely, then faith will be lost in the system and people MIGHT VIEW ELECTION INTEGRITY DIFFERENTLY.

This is an possible example of how a little fraud can create massive doubt. Massive fraud does not have to be proven. The POTENTIAL for massive fraud does.

right is going to hurt anyone. I hear equally bizarre threats of "this will destroy the Democratic Senators.This will destroy the Party". Balderdash.If the Democratic Party can't afford to stand up for itself then it is already defeated and gone. I choose to think it isn't! BTW, you didn't answer "who" would be mocking the Dems who stand up?

and it will not be pretty. No, I don't think it will "destroy" anyone, but I don't think it will accomplish anything either. In fact, it may have a negative effect so that those who object are not taken seriously in the future on voting issues.

Why do you think the Senators won't stand up? Do you think they want Democratic votes suppressed?

they need the repugs. Somw, rather stupidly, from years of DLC brain washing ,believe the repukes might vote for us! Thre was a time they might have.It is long since gone. The neocons are not the repugs of our parent's day. My Dad was a "Rockerfeller Republican'. He said he had been considered conservative as a youth and was amazed that he was now considered a liberal, though his views hadn't changed. And ther you have it. There is no longer "business as usual". Jean Carnahan and Max Cleland testify to that . Tom Daschle can be added to their group. Those that cooperate are destroyed.

This idea that being mocked or made fun of is not the issue at hand JD! I am an african american man from the south and I have family members that can give you first hand accounts of being driven away from polls & having been beaten for the right just to cast a vote. I think this concept of taking the vote for granted is sick and foolish. "Oh this is not a fight worth fighting BLAH BLAH BLAH.." When do we fight man! When do we stand up? When the best and brightest think the only choice they have is to be be repub to win (oh damn to late) ? Or when voting is open and free as long as you vote for a bush (got me again) . When you can have any rep you want as long as they are Rebpublican (you guessed it ). JD we aren't fighting each other, some of us are fighting to save the republic and others aren't. For all of our sakes I hope we win. If not evey four years will be a joke, with us as the butt!

Tonkin resolution in 1964. If many more Senators and Representatives had stood up to oppose that, many many American lives would have been saved. I am also a rational person who is normally cautious about making allegations, and I think there is ample reason to protest this election. Mockers be damned !

"The most faithful and reliable Democratic voter bloc got the shaft AGAIN, and if you think we need to wait, hide, back off or otherwise waste what could be a golden opportunity for a national dialogue, then I don't want to know you, because you make me ashamed."

In the lead up to the election everyone was pinning the hope for victory on the backs of the African American voters. Well when they ALLOWED us to vote, we delivered! We lived up to our part of the bargain.

Now,people just want to say,"let's move on, no problem here, only thousands of Black voters had to be turned away, no voting machines,one strike and you are in prison for life so you can't vote while Enron and Halliburton get off free and Novak is still making millions and our soldiers are dying because of GWBCrooks."

Slavery should have been over in 1865 but it is alive and well in 2005 if Congress turns its backs on African Americans on January 6th.

Fool us once in 2000 - maybe, but Black America will not be fooled again!

Message to Congress: Stand up for justice or sit down with the devil.

No GUTS, No GLORY!

I was disgusted that no Senator would stand up and be counted regarding the 2000 election debacle. The members of the house that stuck their necks out and demanded equal voting rights were ignored and abandoned. It really was shameful and hypocritical.

I've been talking to a lot of my friend and a few law school case mates about this issue. There is genuine concern among us (the Black folk I talk to) that the party is in jeopardy of losing a large segment of our constituency if this all goes down AGAIN like it did four years ago. Honestly, I know people that have said already that they're do with the Democratic Party.

The Party needs to take this threat very very seriously.

we have a little over 800 registered voters, of that I'd wager at least 90% is African American and a few with pale skin like white ole me. All day voters streamed in. By the end of the day, I felt so moved. The precinct turned out to the tune of 72% with a 74% vote for Kerry. Why was I so moved? Because I remembered what happened to disenfranchised African American voters in 2000. Because I remembered the shame I felt as I saw, for the first time (since the MSM didn't carry this as news) watching Farenheit 9-11 when members of the CBC stood up for OUR vote and were ridiculed and laughed at.

Because African America showed up at the polls anyway and cast their ballots on our Diebold vote stealing machines. They came. They delivered.

When the next day we got the "results" of this election and it sank in, I ran into the neighborhood and cried with my African American neighbors and friends.

And now African America is standing up for OUR votes again. OUR democracy.

Message to Congress: You can never sleep with the devil and wake up clean.

Yes, Black America is standing up for the right of all people to have their votes counted.

Let's pray that tomorrow will bring us sunshine.

I agree -- this isn't the time to to back off. We need to keep this going. I got through to Levin, Stabenow and Boxer's office today -- after redialing several times for each because the lines were busy. There was a lot of activity today, leading up to tomorrow. It's going to be a nervewracking day at work, wanting to be at home watching C-SPAN. I'll have it streaming at work and taping at home. I'll also be checking your blog as the day goes on. I'm glad you made it to DC -- wish I could be there. I really think the naysayers are in the minority. Now that it looks like we have senators to stand up, I think most people are excited and looking forward to the fireworks. If only we could get both election reform and an overturning of the election, but I think it's not to be (the latter). I printed out and started reading Conyer's report. Even though I've heard most of it before, reading it all in one, concise place gets me so mad again I could cry. I just want to shake all of them and say "Don't you see it? How can you let this happen? Blackwell belong in jail."

Thanks again for all you do, Will, and good luck to democracy tomorrow.

Senators to listen. We realize it's now or never and we are going all out. I had a confirmation of a hand delivered letter today to Senator Kennedy. He was my last Senator to contact. Read some of the other posts around here. Sounds like the Senators got a butt load of calls today. That's a good thing!

You said it again, Will! Bravo.

Here's the way I see it.

If we (the believers in fraud) are wrong, OK, we lose a public relations battle in the short term.

If the non-believers are wrong, we have elections stolen from us. Repeatedly.

We start winning when we refuse to accept the abuse that our country has suffered under GOP partisanship.

We win another one when we identify and prosecute those responsible for felony offenses (Blackwell, Damshroder, Triad reps).

We press, and we press, and we press - we never give up.

And, one day, our children will be the ones who win.

...and DC is the nexus.My prayer is that one of the 100 most privileged men in the nation will find the moral fortitude to ignore the status quo and challenge this travesty.My lifelong theory has been that the finest politicians were almost always rich men who realized that their station in society was mere happenstance and neither proof of their superiority nor the mark of being one of the "Christian elect".Instead they humbly realized that in the baseball game of life,they were born on third base and owed a debt to those on the team not even allowed an at bat...Such realization does not guarantee an outcome.Outcomes diverge.Jimmy Carter was chased from office in a single term and FDR might STILL be in office had he lived.The only guarantee is that such a man (or woman) will realize and embrace their duty despite the consequences.I believe we will find this person and that our nation will (in time) be reborn as a true beacon of hope and full partner in the family of nations.If I thought otherwise I could not endure....

Why can't they all have cajones as big as Will's?

along with Supreme Court selection does NOT a MANDATE make (thanks to Randi Rhodes for promoting this idea). This is the last stand of the Democratic Party--without this, no votes can be guaranteed to count or be counted. There are probably even a few Republicans who would like to have fair elections.

that no election will ever be run like this again. That a bright light will shine on future elections and people will be ashamed of long lines on election day, instead of giggling at them. Ashamed that there are those who look at an entire block of people who were born in, or live in this country and pay taxes, are not considered someone whose opinion regarding who should run OUR government should count. Enough is enough. This will be the legacy of our generation.

In doing your work in the great world, it is a safe plan to follow a rule I once heard on the football field: Don't flinch, don't fall; hit the line hard.
--Theodore Roosevelt

I agree there were voting irregularities. And I agree that there was fraud. But I think we need to be careful here. Because I believe that there was fraud committed by both sides.

I know many will not agree. But we must be willing to look at the entire picture. Not just the evidence that supports our position. That is what the other side does.

So you aren't bursting anybody around here's bubble. We just want some truth, courage, and integrity for a change. :hi:

The issue is democracy for that if we don't expose ALL fraud, why the fuck even bother continuing this American Democratic experiment.

...of those pro-Bush.

That's approximately 500 Pro-Kerry incidents, and 50000 pro-Bush.

RANDOM ERRORS ARE RANDOM.

FRAUD IS TARGETED.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=239218&mesg_id=239218

Get your violin resin ready for tomorrow. :nopity: ;)

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Congressmen and women who have the courage to stand up for democracy. We salute you, CBC!

They are setting a fine example, and I hope many more Democrats will stand up with them tomorrow--in both houses of Congress as it was their disenfranchisement in states like Ohio that makes this election a mockery of justice.

after tomorrow the jig is up and we get to see who the shits are on all sides of the aisle.

and the day after that... well you say you want a revolution!

now, we may not have the opportunity again for a long time.

I rarely post at DU, but I do read.

Yes, any Senator who dares to stand with Conyers is taking a risk.

Yes, the Democrats could be perceived as sore losers by the 'public at large.'

Yes, it could backfire.

I am married to a man (from the other political party) and until I began informing him of the voting irregularities, he had no idea of the seriousness of it.

The average working person is so weary (from this fast-paced lifestyle that we have today) that when they do get home, they tend to watch too much TV for relaxation, and they tend to rely upon the network news to tell them the truth. Most of them still trust their daily newspaper.

We HERE know that because of the FCC and the new 'Corporate Age' most news is filtered, but so many people do not know that. They don't have a clue.

That's why it is important that news is made tomorrow... news that the networks CANNOT ignore.

Only then will the average person listen... maybe.

The extreme right seems to be holding ALL the cards these days, doesn't it ...even down to what we are allowed to know.

I am old -- probably older than most here. I'm old enough to remember a time when people had to 'march and protest' (in order to gain any recognition -- in order to have any say in their government -- in order to voice their opinion) and that can be a dangerous business!

So, I say YES. Tomorrow is a good day to take a risk.

Perhaps it just might turn the tide and save our children and grandchildren from having to 'march and protest.'

(I'll go 'back to my rocking chair' now and just read some more. Oh, and yes... I contacted my Senators.)

it's ok, everything is going to be ok.

{{{HUGS}}} and all of your hard work, as well as the work of other Democrats will not be in vain!!

they do what they are there to do and they are not there to play beta dog to the alpha dog. So mock me -- big deal. Who cares that its the perfect time or not.

Don't underestimate the trauma of Election Night. Some are still suffering from that. It was like being robbed or beaten up. A rape of the nation.

And reactions will vary--from standing up and fighting back, to curling up in the fetal position, to denial, to argumentativeness, to...

Not all. But some.

A few are perverse naysayers. The minute something good happens, they're right up at the board with a negative title about it. They're very predictable, so you can avoid them if you know. But I'm sure their titles upset people who don't know. The election was enough of an emotional roller coaster already. Bad to have these people constantly raising our blood pressure in the only home we have had, where those who understood this election could go, speak, investigate, analyze and organize. And bad for newcomers looking for information, and immediately seeing things like, "Senators who sign will be committing political suicide."

And some are freepers, I have no doubt. Probably well paid.

But I really wouldn't take these negative titles as a reflection on the rest of us. They merely show our commitment to free speech.

Since I can't get to DC, I'm at home phoning Congress people and blogging. And I've been going around to these negative posts and trying to counter any stupid negative statements (no facts, no basis of argument), any malicious ones, and any that just show depression, hopelessness.

This is a young movement--this democracy movement. It is a very remarkable thing. I've never seen anything like it in my lifetime, not even in the '60s. I've never seen such a broad-based awakening, and seeking after our roots, our Constitutional foundation, the principles of democracy. It is amazing--but I think it took a severe blow with the theft of the election, and is only just recovering from that.

Because it's a young movement--and there are a lot of young people in it--and because it took such a devastating blow so early, I think people will get overwrought, get all caught up in each individual event, and have a hard time seeing the big picture.

It took decades to lose our democracy. This did not happen in the last four years. And it will take decades to win it back fully. Steady, steady, is my motto. Whatever is flashing victory to you, whatever black flags you see, whatever thrills you feel as this great movement to save American democracy gathers strength, stay steady, and also think long term.

Think Nelson Mandela, 30 years in prison. How did he keep the vision of a free society before his eyes all that time?

Think of the millions of black South Africans, so brutally oppressed for so long. It was THEY who made it real. Hang onto your dreams. And bit by bit, collectively, with or without our sometime leaders, we will make American democracy real again. Because it's about US.

Challenging to defend our right to have a democracy. These DLC spineless out of touch republi-Dems obviously don't care about voting, especially black people voting. Well, WE CARE, WE CHALLENGE and we will fight them every step of the way until they wake up, leave or join the fascists. We will stand - they must stand behind us or face political obscurity and the death of the Democratic party. I hate to say that, I love the values of my party, just have no use for the spineless officials that have left our backs exposed. Thanks will, God help us.

I don't understand what you are saying. Do you mean Kerry is going to win? Are the Democrats going to pull this one out?

If the Democrats don't win the vote Thursday, I am done with them. Through, I tell you!!!

The preceding was a parody of some of the expectations here. For those who have been fighting so hard for this, if the news is true, you should congratulate yourselves. Actually, you should congratulate yourselves anyway. This was a grassroots, straight from the people, movement. This didn't come from Congress, lobbyists, or any of the usual political centers of power. In two months, you have gone from infrequent mentions on the internet to enough plausibility that a Senator or Senators (a notoriously cautious lot) is/are contemplating standing with you.

For those who do not agree with the objectives of challenge proponents, at least respect the beauty of what was done here. For all the causes people are saying deserve more emphasis than this, THIS is the model to use, the model used by the folks on this board who got the House and Senate to stand up and take notice. For all the causes you are talking about, believe in the cause, stick with it, coordinate with those that are likeminded and work like hell.

Friday, George W. Bush will still be President and he wants to do some very bad things. We will all haave to work together to stop him.

would take to leap of faith and make their opinions heard.

and low-income voters is enough reason to contest. To do otherwise is to collude in institutionalized racism and the emerging institutionalization of a civil rights and liberties Caste system based on income.

I think maybe you were expecting to see this. People here have been writing about contacting senators. Hell, I even saw a post on contacting McCain. Which I didn't think was such a far fetched thought.

I've been making my case for weeks now. You apperently haven't read any of my posts on the subject.

We've also been Ignoring your case for weeks now.

since I'm not the only long time DUer who feels this way.

Why would you not expect to see a pattern in my posts?

:shrug:

With you Will. It IS time to stand....
well PAST time actually. What Bush has gotten away with
in not one but two elections is absolutely SICKENING!!!!

Waiting for a better time, trying to be coy, isnt going to work.
It didnt work after 2000 and it wont work now.

I'm not saying to rage and go nuts- but, an educated discourse has got to take place before some kind of Civil War starts right here in our country.

Seems like most objections to Senators standing up amount to "they'll look like nutjobs."

Haven't they ever heard of STANDING UP FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN?

Fuck worrying how you look.

If the election was stinko, even a LITTLE stinko, we need a public place to address it, with the force of our leaders behind it.

This is it.

Can't wait to see how it all turns out.

Good thing that true American Patriots never gave a sh*t about being mocked
or threatened or being called a sore loser when they decided to stand up to
rank corruption.

"Well, I don't know about this. Isn't it a little provocative. I mean, we're destroying private property in public. Think of the press. We've got to be more like the British to get them to go along. We need to concentrate on image and organization."

I love the image of those guys on the boat demonstrating to let the British know we were through with their bull shit.

This is far more civilized, we're using the established process.

What are people afraid of. Great points ClarkUSA (and I'm a Clark guy from the past and through the present/future).

to give up your vote by not fighting?? what if tommorrow you are the minority..would you not want someone fighting for your vote??
i know bush will be president..thats not the point , unless "we the people" stand for our values and our rights and our vote..the very fiber of our democracy..what the hell is the rest all about??
if we allow bush to have legitimacy and to b.s. the american people with his so called mandate...what values are we standing for??
what democracy do we have when time and again a certain slice of our nation does not have their votes count, people of ohio and florida and new mexico lost their votes and voices by the republican cabal by any means possible...
if that is not worth standing up against..what is..the price of sugar?? or coffee in congress..farm bills and judges...but not our votes?? and not the votes of our fellow americans??
how do we look ourselves in the mirror when we are not willing to take the risks nessesary to guarentee every american a vote, but we will send the same people off to war in our names?? how do we live with ourselves when we know our children are in a war they were lied to about and yet we sit quietly back and no one wants to ruffle feathers about it..because we were silenced by those who bullied us into the back room and called us unpatriotic if we yelled and screamed...
well i am yelling and screaming ..no one will shut me the hell up, and no one will ever tell me lies are to be protected over truth..no siree..i will get in the face of any so called american who tells me that the lies of this admin or any other admin are to be protected over the truth....
i am sick to death of the lies that have been protected..and this election is a lie..is was a lie before it ever began..it was planned and it was executed..and anyone who doesn't stand and fight it ..is no american in my book...coward is more like it!!

my son's vote must count ..it didnt in 2000, my husbands vote must count..they are both minorities..and i will fight to the end of the earth for their votes to count! And i will fight for anyone who has experienced losing their vote,to make their vote count!

if it makes some uncomfortable..tough! and i will hold anyone who supposedly represents me and them who doesn't stand for that vote accountable! many young people now and in our history died for that vote...for me to ignore their sacrifice ,is for me to be traitor to my constitution, and my nation.
fly

I think your post is terrific. I think that all DUer's should read it. It is the height of clarity and coherence on the issue.

How hard is it to stand up for VOTING RIGHTS?
Who wouldn't stand up for VOTING RIGHTS?

Here is a bit of history that we should all remember. You post caused be to think of this poem:


First They Came for the Jews

"First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me."

Pastor Martin Niemöller

If all we did was sit around and plot strategy in a cerebral way, we would have given this effort up as hopeless back in early November the way that John Kerry did.

(Oh no, here I go on my soap box)

As the greatest mind in western civilization William Blake wrote "It is but lost time to converse with you whose works are only Analytics." He also wrote "The voice of honest indignation is the voice of God" and "Opposition is true Friendship."


I suggest that people whose left brains are overworked go meditate in the "I Believe" thread for a while.

It doesn't "change" anything. It's only a couple of hours of debate, The Rep. leadership of both houses sits down hard on it

even if, even if

It will take some of the "mandate" crap out of the mouths of the bloviaters.

It will point out to the world that this man was "selected" once again, this time by the house. And the American people will still have their pants on.

on that bloated braggart and his his plans for perpetual slaughter for oil and his dreams of Oligarchic Theocracy. The more attention paid to the "irregularities" and voter suppression the less claim he has to his mythical "mandate."

have to stand with strong voices and with the evidence in hand, get on the MSM and be aggressive. They will need to explain that our voting system is broken, that this "contesting the verification" is about the equal rights to vote and to have their vote verified, not to overturn this election.

They need to be loud and clear and all over the TV.

I agree with your post totally.

Let the "talking heads" on both sides say what they want, this is about the most precious right of any American, the right to vote.

To the naysayers, if you think that the Republicans have any serious notion of investigating voter disenfranchisement or voter fraud, please check out what planet you live on.

Will, I'm glad you're in DC and I'm looking forward to reading your blog tomorrow.


:yourock: :loveya:

The good Senators who stand up are merely "forcing the debate" over Election Fraud and Election Reform.

Debate. Election. Reform.

I will be working tomorrow. I will not be able to view, or listen to any coverage of the proceedings in the great CBC et al challenge to this past election. I am very proud of Representative Conyers et al.

I fully understand that there are many "things" which would not be politically, and, otherwise, convenient in the positions of the Senators which COULD provoke a question of the Bush "mandate" or "legitimacy". However, IF, there is not one Democratic Senator that doesn't raise their hand in support of the Conyers' initiative to challenge tomorrow, then, I will be "ASHAMED" of all Democratic Senators.

Hopefully, upon returning from my "daytime" job, I will be pleased to know that at least "one" cared about our democracy more than his or her self centered justification for not supporting the largest threat to the "American Experiment" which this country has had to confront since the Civil War.

We are talking about most profound issues of future liberties and freedoms which are superiorly important to any "one" Senator's agenda. This should not be Maxine Waters standing up in 2001 and announcing before Vice President Gore that she didn't care if there were any Senators; and, that was the last time. How many times should there be, prior to the DNC and the Democratic Senators giving up on democracy, and, signing on to the tyranny of this fraud, before integrity in the Senate is resumed?

If YOU support any who do not support Conyers tomorrow, then, I would "look" into the "glass" to see what you can see; for, that will be where the shame will rest.

and I have already promised my daughter that I will text message her in school if a Senator stands up!! That is all we can talk about lately.

I'm looking forward to tomorrow, and, whichever way it blows, we did the best we could and will keep on keeping on. Thanks Will, a million times over.

Go William!

In his e-mail today he said his lawyers believe that there was no proof of voter fraud that would change the out come of the election.

Why John Kerry do we have to provide absolute proof of fraud?

Blackell screwed you and the American people and you should stand and fight along with us NOW! (Not in 2008)

stand up and be counted.

NOW you're telling me the Repubs are not going to let me use them?? How dare they! And how dare YOU for passing along such awful news! Sheesh!

nt

That is exactly what Keith's sub said tonight on his show. She said are other head democrats going to be upset because of some reps. contesting the Ohio election.

I and many others don't give a flying fig what anyone else thinks of this. Fraud is fraud and if it can be proven so be it.

hey, it's all publicity about suspect voting procedures, and in the end, that's a good thing.
I'm for Boxer protesting. Bush needs asterisk number 2.

for all that you do, and thank you DUers who work so hard. Now is the time. Why do people care so much what the MSM says or what the GOP says? I don't listen to them because they are not honest. They smear and spread lies no matter what democrats do, so why not DO something big and important like standing in their face to say we'd like to keep a little bit of that democracy, if you please? I see this as a protest of this administration and the GOP policies which negate democratic participation, and an acknowledgment that this past election just did NOT make sense, and that we are making our representatives to Congress accountable to "we-the-people" of the democratic party as well as to the republican party. We've got to believe we count too, and let them know it!!!

I agree this is our shot at exposing this in a big way. I'm going to keep calling the Senators all morning tommorow. I'm not going to give up until they listen. They are small in number and are elected to listen to us. Together our voice is loud. I think we need to just keep turning up the volume!

Bug-eyed delirious from staring at this monitor, following links, sending emails, pondering pondering....in a subverbal stupor now but just to say thanks to Will and everyone here for great posts today
------------

Uh oh. This is gonna be some day. Standby. This is the time. And this is the record of the time. This is the time. And this is the record of the time. This is your Captain again. You know, I've got a funny feeling I've seen this all before. Why? Cause I'm a caveman. Why? Cause I've got eyes in the back of my head. Why? It's the heat. Standby. This is the time. And this is the record of the time. This is the time. And this is the record of the time. Put your hands over your eyes. Jump out of the plane. There is no pilot. You are not alone. Standby. This is the time. And this is the record of the time. This is the time. And this is the record of the time. (Laurie Anderson)

For all Americans, we need to make sure our voting system is safe and fair.

I'm hoping EVERY Democratic Senator will stand up with Representative Conyers et.al., but I'll be OK with at least ONE!!!

:kick:

And it says...
There are nearly 3,000,000 of you receiving this email. We accomplished so much together during the campaign. Now let's use our power to make sure that at least one good thing comes from the voting rights problems of the 2004 election. If we want to force real action on election reform, we've got to demand that congressional leaders hold full hearings. Make sure they hear from you and help hold them accountable.

Speaker Dennis Hastert: 1-202-225-0600
Leader Bill Frist: 1-202-224-3135

And please report that you've made your call right here:
http://www.johnkerry.com/signup/electoral_reform.php

is way too much of a perfectionist, or nitpicker, or procrastinator, or just plain wimp, or who knows what. There IS no other time!

And if I hear one word from any politician about "healing"--at any time before this business of fraudulent elections is CORRECTED, once and for all--I will say to that politician, Go to HELL!

:shrug:

If you don't fight them now, knowing what we all know, you are complicit in their coup d'eta.