The only reason I'm somewhat sceptical about the "stolen election"

issue is because poll averages showed the race was close and Bush had a slight edge. ...

I'm not saying it wasn't stolen, but it's certainly understandable that Kerry and others were not convinced. I am sure his internals looked iffy, thus the trip to Ohio with Bruce Springstein before the election? :shrug:

Check out how accurate the averages were on RCP:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/election2004-final.html

Also look here at Ohio polling averages:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/bush_vs_kerry_sbys.html

Now if the polls showed 70% voting for Kerry and 30% for Bush, I could understand the venom against Kerry here. But the fact is, if the election was stolen they didn't have much work to do.

So for now, let's cut Kerry, Moore and others some slack. If we prove it was stolen and Kerry doesn't act, then I'll be the first to complain.

Edited to add some very good news here!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x24794

look at the damn evidence, remember the turnout, remember what bush is, you tell me again you are sceptical?

arrrrgggghhhhhh

That's the evidence the campaigns have at their disposal. Kerry didn't look at exit polls, he looked at poll after poll showing Bush slighlty ahead in Ohio.

Again, I don't doubt it was stolen one bit! But, I'm not gonna trash Kerry for not being of the same mind at this point.

check the totals with those EVs shifted, ba-da-bing!

plus some in New Mexico and ???

Florida would be the easiest though - they've had practice and Jeb.

his words:every vote must be counted. every vote must count
but not by litigation, by the people

it is up to we the people

Don't know if you knew it, but realclearpolitics.com is a right-wing site. Don't take their word for anything.

Zogby, electoral-vote.com, and several other sites showed polls swinging Kerry's way in the days before the election.

Zogby.

Also, Zogby changed his prediction based on early exit polls. He had the race coming down to Florida and Ohio and after exit polls came out, he said Ohio was "trending Kerry" ...

is that they are very selective with the polls. They generally look at the few most recent for each polling firm and pick the one that is most *-friendly. For instance, Zogby had a Minnesota poll showing kerry with an 11 point lead in mid-October. RCP *never* displayed that one on their site.

I weren't aware of that. They sure got damn close on their projection though.

Did you see the web archive link to their 2000 "final projection"? LOL, they guaranteed that * would get at least 350 electoral votes, and figured he might even reach 400. I'll see if I can find that.

I guess I won't refer to them in 08. ;)

:crazy:

Guess I won't quote them anymore.

regularly in a way that would make it easier to hide fraud?

:hi:

The site averaged results from several sources:

ARG
ZOGBY
SUSA
QUINNPAC
RASMUSSEN
CNN/GALLUP
VARIOUS UNIVERSITIES ETC...

oversampled Republicans, your "averages" mean about as much as a promise from a Republican.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/05/voting.problems.ap/index.html

quote:

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) -- An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said.
Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry's 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct.
Bush actually received 365 votes in the precinct, Matthew Damschroder, director of the Franklin County Board of Elections, told The Columbus Dispatch.
State and county election officials did not immediately respond to requests by The Associated Press for more details about the voting system and its vendor, and whether the error, if repeated elsewhere in Ohio, could have affected the outcome.
Bush won the state by more than 136,000 votes, according to unofficial results, and Kerry conceded the election on Wednesday after acknowledging that 155,000 provisional ballots yet to be counted in Ohio would not change the result
The Secretary of State's Office said Friday it could not revise Bush's total until the county reported the error.
The Ohio glitch is among a handful of computer troubles that have emerged since Tuesday's elections.
In one North Carolina county, more than 4,500 votes were lost because officials mistakenly believed a computer that stored ballots electronically could hold more data than it did. And in San Francisco, a malfunction with custom voting software could delay efforts to declare the winners of four races for county supervisor.
In the Ohio precinct in question, the votes are recorded onto a cartridge. On one of the three machines at that precinct, a malfunction occurred in the recording process, Damschroder said. He could not explain how the malfunction occurred.
Damschroder said people who had seen poll results on the election board's Web site called to point out the discrepancy. The error would have been discovered when the official count for the election is performed later this month, he said.
The reader also recorded zero votes in a county commissioner race on the machine.
Workers checked the cartridge against memory banks in the voting machine and each showed that 115 people voted for Bush on that machine. With the other machines, the total for Bush in the precinct added up to 365 votes.
Meanwhile, in San Francisco, a glitch occurred with software designed for the city's new "ranked-choice voting," in which voters list their top three choices for municipal offices. If no candidate gets a majority of first-place votes outright, voters' second and third-place preferences are then distributed among candidates who weren't eliminated in the first round.
When the San Francisco Department of Elections tried a test run on Wednesday of the program that does the redistribution, some of the votes didn't get counted and skewed the results, director John Arntz said.
"All the information is there," Arntz said. "It's just not arriving the way it was supposed to."
A technician from the Omaha, Neb. company that designed the software, Election Systems & Software Inc., was working to diagnose and fix the problem

end of quote

I rest my case

4000 votes in a precinct with 600 voters, uh???

But what about 10-20 votes in every other precinct, silently shifted into *'s column. Undetectable.

work would be done. I find that evidence compelling, along with the 88,000 votes in Florida.

AND, I encourage EVERYONE to pursue the possibility of fraud, but I don't blame Kerry for not putting on the tinfoil hat just yet.

4,000 votes is an awful lot of votes. What about the rest of the country? A vote here, 10 there... no one would notice.

Just makes me wonder... If it was a "computer glitch", why didn't the machine give Kerry any extra votes, not a single one?

Totally. Seems the glitched favored the chimp ... curious at best.

It's been used for decades and has always been right until 2000. It appears to have been right in most states. At 6 eastern, it was certain for Kerry, no question about it. The media had descended on Boston. So what happened? I certainly don't buy that all of a sudden white christian males stormed the polls at 6:00, only in swing states. We'd have seen that happen anyway. I want an explanation that makes sense.

:shrug:

Kerry assuming the WH, it is our best chance to gain meaningful reform before the midterms. We also can rightfully paint the Repugs as the frauds they are (so, how moral is that RW "moral" majority?), perhaps result in some bigwigs going to jail, and slapping them down before the next pResidential election.

don't come up regardless.

<Excerpted from an article on my homepage.>
http://www.independentmediasource.com/index.html#A_Stolen_Election_-_AGAIN!

In Florida, and probably Ohio (and very possibly other states), the election is most likely being stolen through voter fraud. I say this for the following reasons:

- The exit polls showed a clear Kerry advantage in these states. Early in the counting yesterday, Bob Woodward expressed reservations about the wide disparity between the exit polls and the claimed vote count. And the gap has only gotten worse since then. "Lucky George!"

- Those still undecided at election time historically trend for the challenger. "Lucky George!"

- Bush's approval rating has averaged about 48% in the polls just prior to the election. It is unheard of for an incumbent to be re-elected if this number is under 50%. "Lucky George!"

- A high voter turn-out strongly favors the Democrats over the Republicans. This will turn out to be the highest turnout in 40 years (since the sixties). "Lucky George!"

- The "young vote", who registered and pledged to vote in record numbers (and polled strongly against Bush); were "under the radar" in the national polling - due to using cell phones, etc. So their vote should've skewed the voting results much higher than the pre-election polls indicated. (Also, in many polls, they were not counted because they had never voted before, and were not considered "likely voters"). I have already heard a group of pundits on CNN "spinning" this - claiming the young voters didn't turn out in any greater numbers than they did in 2000 ("But what about the tracking polls?" a questioning voice asked. He was quickly overwhelmed by the group.) Do you believe that only 33% of the young voters turned out yesterday (as they did in 2000)? NOT A CHANCE! "Lucky George!"

- An article even indicated that Democrats also were under-represented in the polling surveys:

"Bush or Kerry - Are Pollsters Making the Connection? New CEA Survey Finds Consumer Shift to Cellular Phones, New Telephone Technologies Leave Millions out of Polling Process - Survey Finds Republicans More Likely To Respond To Phone Polls; Democrats More Likely To Screen Calls and Answer Most Calls At Home Using Cell Phone" "Lucky George!"
http://www.independentmediasource.com/feature_archive.htm#102304_19

- George Bush lost all three debates. No incumbent has ever won reelection after losing all three debates. "Lucky George!"

I'm sure there are other discrepancies. These are just the ones that came to mind.

Is all this just a coincidence? Someone once said, if you think its a coincidence, it probably isn't. "Lucky George!"

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Visit this page for more info on the stolen election.

http://www.independentmediasource.com/evotingfraud.htm

against fraud because I don't doubt they'd do it, as they did in 2000.

One thing to keep in mind though is that the RW spent the past 4 years registering voters and improving their ground game. Unfortunately they have improved upon the one thing we had a major advantage on: GOTV.

Additionally I should mention no war time President has ever been defeated, and that may have played a role?

I hope we can prove fraud, but I won't flog Kerry for not biting on it just yet.

1 Sure, an exception to one or two past trends sure (the Redskins "indicator" is broken ;) err.. unless he REALLY won). But not all seven. The statistical odds of that would be astronomical.

2 He's the first Prez of an unpopular war that didn't decline to seek another term, or promise to get us out. (Truman and LBJ former, Nixon latter).

Looking at "the big picture" - no doubt "we was robbed".

Dylan said: "You don't need to be a weatherman to know which the wind blows".

I didn't do a state by state comparison, but the ones I looked at, the people who decided recently did go Kerry. So that was no "lucky George" and makes the whole thing even weirder.

It makes sense, it indicates a deep diddstisfaction with the incumbent if he cann't "wrap them up" by election day.

In areas where the BBV machines or touch screens were used, the exit polls were waaay off. In areas where write-ins and the older machines were used, the exit polls were dead on.

My thread is simply pointing out why I'm not entirely convinced and that I understand why Kerry is also not.

to get the polls showing your desired results, so that the voters won't be skeptical.

:shrug:

Its just trying to prove it, is the difficult part.

1- push for paper trails

2 - a national boycott until the "Chimp" is impeached or resigns.

HIT 'EM WHERE IT HURTS! In the pocketbook!