NH recount by Nader.... Is meant to ABSOLVE Diebold!

Now this is just a nightmare scenario rumination by me, but:
Imagine that, Nader- obviously and knowingly helping the Bushies- is simply initiating an exercise which in the end will only make EV appear to be legitimate and beyond question. It is much easier to do in a small state like New Hampshire, and if done convincingly, (bringing in "experts" etc...) will help to discredit and weaken pending challenges to the bigger prizes of Ohio and Florida.

Think of it as the "TANG memos" of BBV.

lost on me.

or are you just content to libel people, out of ignorance?

The FACTS are that DUer IdaBriggs discovered some of the anomalies in NH. Longtime DUer and personal friend of MINE hedda_foil and her associate, co-founders of the National Ballot Integrity Project, took it and ran with it, asking DUers to fax Ralph last week to get him to ask for the recount, which he did within just one minute of the deadline (which was 5 pm Friday).

DUers Bev Harris and GBnC of BBV.ORG have been working on this with incredible energy as well. Bev spoke at Nader's press conference today.

I don't care whether people despise Ralph Nader or not. This recount means a lot (everything, actually) -- it gives us an opportunity to PROVE that the machines are untrustworthy and should NEVER be used to count any democracy's votes. (It's not totally about fraud, but about their VULNERABILITIES -- to fraud, error, hacking, and just plain static cling and stuff, to paraphrase Olbermann's line).

But if this succeeds, Nader will have been (put himself) in the highly ironic position of not only helping save democracy, but the Democratic Party itself.

Some links for your edification:

DU INFO ALERT: Why Recounting in New Hampshire Could Save Democracy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2617155

Need Some DU Help w/New Hampshire Stuff!!! (URGENT)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=26802&mesg_id=26802

RALPH NADER MAY SAVE THE WORLD!!! (Its NOT Over in NH!) Updated Fri 8:15p
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x25116

Nader requests NH vote recount. (Did we just make a huge blunder?)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=965216

Nader, Cobb and Badnarik may all be willing to look into recounts in Ohio
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x26843


Now get with the program and donate to the new 527 set up to accept recount donations, and send Stephanie's letter to all your friends and family:

*****Want to Help America Recount? The website is UP!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1344801

***** Donations for the Recount" Fundraising Kit > > >
(Use this to send to your friends -- enormous amount of info -- pick and choose what you need)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x37833

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I was one of the people that sent in faxes, as did my friends.

With recounting carrying such importance, I am surprised not a single Democratic party leader, including Howard Dean, come out to quesiton the election results. Is DNC so corrupted like the republican? Then who should we support in the next election?

They are no idiots. Dean was sending e-mails to supporters asking to sign petitions so all the electronic voting machines have a paper trail.
Are we now supposed to believe the democratic party thinks this election was kosher even thought they clearly knew about all the potential for FRAUD?
We might as well believe in Easter Bunny.

THANK YOU again and again for all your work. And, you are doing so much work, that please don't feel any pressure to answer this question if you just don't have time... or maybe someone else would be able to provide some info. on this...? Anyway, I guess I'm just a little nervous about the process of "recounting" in NH (and anywhere else I guess)... Is it a process the outcome of which we will trust? Who's doing it? Who's monitoring it? that kind of stuff... you know what I mean? Not to be too paranoid or anything, but seems to me that if you stole it once, you're going to be pretty motivated to try to make sure the same results come up again... any reassuring thoughts? AND THANKS AGAIN!

We have a winner :think:

but I hope he proves me wrong. If so -- I will issue an apology -- I, unlike the giggling chimp in the white house and Nader, CAN admit when she is wrong.

unless it garners him some attention. And he gets more of it if there IS something wrong. Doesn't add up that he would want to side with the corporate vote counters. The repukes used him like a $20 whore, paid cash up front, got what they wanted and pulled out. No reason for them to come back.

where he can stake a legitimate claim for wanting a recount.

If fraud is there, it sets a precedent for investigating elsewhere. Bev Harris is all over this one, and if she's okay with it, knowing Nader's history, I'll let her worry about his ulterior motives.

It's also good to let bushco sweat a little. Did you know Rove was on with Peter Jennings tonight, dissing the exit polls? They're already doing damage control.

NOT investigating elsewhere, or at least NOT expecting it to be found elsewhere.

Doesn't it sort of leave people thinking that either the count was accurate or that, even if it weren't, there's nothing you can do, so don't bother complaining in the future?

Let's face it. Even without fraud, we know that the average high school computer geek can corrupt this insecure computer system. Even if there was democratic tampering, it will be damaging to Diebold. They don't want anyone inspecting their results, least of all Bev Harris who will get her golden opportunity here.

Bottom line is, Diebold is already in. Why would they think being challenged helps their position? If they welcomed a challenge, when they were certified, the issue of Security would not have been marked "NOt Applicable." they couldn't even fake it when the certifier was on the payroll.

Bush was 17 FRICKEN points behind exit polls and lost by 1? I don't think they want to have to explain that. Hard to be THAT creative.

Ralph's narcisism might work for US this time.

Before Ralph Nader was a politician he was a public advocate against fraud.
http://www.nader.org/

I'm pretty sure he still thinks republicans and democrats are still in bed together but he still doesn't like fraud.

He has spent his entire career protecting the rights of consumers and the little guy, and has talked repeatedly about our corrupt system. Believe me if he thought he could help undo an election fraud, he probably would. I read on another thread they were trying to get him to request recounts in all 34 states he was on the ballot in. Not a bad idea if its actually true.

I think Nader had to take what he could get, the struggle for 3rd parties is much greater than ours. He didn't take money for corporations, so he needed something. I think we should give him a break, if we would've listened to him on a few points, we may not be in this dire situation.

And wouldn't it go a long way in letting him vindicate himself for what happened in 2000?

NGU.

Nader received a whopping $112,000 from Republicans, compared to the miniscule $10 million + Kerry received from Repubs. http://counterpunch.org/wire10192004.html

I said the other day in a thread here that the Dems smear campaign of 2004 against Nader probably scared off the one guy with the clout and experience to expose Diebold machine/vote count fraud (if any) and when Nader still does the right thing, and helps to get the ball rolling into investigating the issue, he is still bashed and beaten by people here. I guess it's easier to blame Nader for costing Gore the 2000 election by making Gore get 500,000 more popular votes then Bush, and undermine him this year then it is to face facts.

That is exactly why "you" (the Dems) lost the election.

I'm proud to say I voted for Nader in 2004.

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

It is amazingly complex and fast moving.

Practically everything we do, everything we buy and everything we are paid could be described as being supported by Republican dollars.

Anything that leads us to suspect Nader, Dean, or Kerry IMHO is itself suspect. We are up against the most corrupt and dishonest adminstration in history. We all know how pervasive the propaganda is and hopw ruthless the opposition is. All of us have been sorting through this and have struggled to understand it and to know what the most effective action would be.

The one thing I know is that I don't know. Kerry and Nader may well be buying time for us and their actions may be just as easliy be explained as intelligent strategy as they can be as nefarious or underhanded.

But in the present, he seems a bit of a Machiavel.

I do appreciate anyone who actually comes to the aid of the Democratic Party, since the actual party leadership seems disabled by 5th columnists.

You are correct! Thanks for saving me time to post that.

We asked him to do it. There are several threads here on DU, where we were asked to fax his office and ask him to help us and BBV to get this recount. Randi Rhodes even asked her listeners to do it. Ralph gets to play the role he is best at consumer advocate, plus he's in the limelight which he also loves.

I for one am glad that he's gone and filed for it. The whole point is to show that if there was fraud in little NH on these BBV machines then it's nationwide.

Thank you Ralph for stepping up to the plate on this one.

Sonia

...to consider doing this. On the phone.

NGU.

I got to his staffer through a connect from Hedda. :)

Plus Olbermann mentioned you! *gesticulating* I'm not worthy!!

NGU.

...except that I just saw Susan Sarandon on Maher talking about it enthusiastically. I believe that all of us, most of the posters on this board, are miles distant from the real epicenters of decision and power, and could easily be fooled by Nader's agreeing to do this at the request of Bev Harris and BBV. But I don't believe that Susan Sarandon, herself a former Nader supporter, someone much closer to the campaign than we are, would risk her name to back something that would so completely devastate the Democrats even more. Not to mention Randi Rhodes, Mike Malloy, and anyone else with a reputation to lose - they would be very careful about lending credence to it, even in this hyper-emotional atmosphere. So until somebody "in the know" comes out and says, hey, this is bullshit, don't trust Ralph, then I'll trust those who know more than I who unquestionably have our interests at heart.

I was seeing on DU. You can read it here at www.invisibleida.com/New_Hampshire.htm and in a couple of threads I've been posting over the day.

I'm not trying to brag; I'm telling you that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, and this whole thing would NEVER have happened except for DU.

And a lot of "banging my head on the wall" phone calls that got me nowhere until I turned to Nader's team. :)

I AM a believer! I was trying to insert some logic in response to skeptical posts... I was saying that if those people - Sarandon, Rhodes, Malloy - trust Nader on this recount not to screw us, then so do I! I KNOW it started here... I've been trying to corral all the threads about it, and can't keep up, been trying to do it since last night:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x23066

I know you're frazzled, but I wasn't disputing all your hard work... please read what I said again.

I for one am going to trust Ralph on this one and thanks so much for helping to make it happen.

:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: Ida!

Beware fraudmeisters of NH. We prove one state and the rest will fall.

Well, the exit polling for NH showed Kerry Way Way Way in front of Bush. But the "final count" was much much much closer.

I just don't see how Nader could be doing anything nefarious. Maybe he wants to rehabilitate his image. He loves to find fault with things. Maybe this will kill two birds with one stone.

I don't see how this can make it any worse for Kerry then it already is.

JMHO,

BB

It will diffuse the whole issue, and Florida and Ohio, the states that SHOULD be investigated, won't be.

Ohio and Florida are the obvious targets, probably where the Republican guard is assembled and devoted...New Hampshire provides a wonderful model in a small scale which can be deconstructed rapidly (we only have about a month left) - and if a systemic fault can be proven with a handcount (which would be enormously less tedious in New Hampshire than Florida), it opens up many paths and then Ohio and Florida can be tackled with more precision and patience.

At that point, any attempt to rush or halt the process, in light of the New Hampshire Findings, would be transparent, hence, not politically expedient for the GOP.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=24757&mesg_id=24757

Where I explain what's going on -- how I picked New Hampshire to analyze without talking to anyone else, the reasons I picked it, and what I found out. You should check out the website I posted in the thread to read the analysis and recommendation stuff.

I really wish people would stop insulting me and the people who have been bending over backwards to help with this project by comparing us to the "Smear Guys" or implying I'm a GOP person or other paranoid stuff. There's a method to the madness, and if you aren't willing to look at the data, then ...?

Of course, I guess a tolerant caveat would be that you may not have had time to read every single thread on DU, so if I'm just being grumpy, I apologize in advance.

It's gotten more than ridiculous.

They either don't see the thread explaining stuff, or I've suddenly grown horns or something, but if this is how Nader gets treated when he's saving the world, what the HELL is wrong with these people? Should I even bother responding to them? Part of me wants to anxiously provide them with the information, while the other just wants to let the thread drop into the archives.

Of course, the bronchitis that won't let me lay down and sleep for the third night in a row probably isn't helping, either. Maybe I should start working on some more data....

:(

I am one who always likes to try to counter disinformation, mischaracterizations and lies instead of seeing them lay there unchallenged myself. But It can be a serious time- and energy-waster. I can't tell you the disrespect I'm developing for these rabid anti-Naderites. I've never myself been a fan of the guy, but this is freakin' ridiculous.

Just do what seems right for you. If you CAN crunch more numbers, maybe that's the best use of your time.

I think I'm going to try to sleep a little bit first. I don't want to mess anything up because of not being able to focus, and I'm INCREDIBLY tired. I'll work on more numbers tomorrow....

Everyone is on edge now and worse. Get some rest. Some nice lemon tea for that bronchitis. I missed your post at first, they'll get to it eventually and the lights will come on. You explained it well there. Of course, I've been dreaming of a way to catch fraud on these machines before all the counts are certified and the demon gets sworn in.

Sweet dreams.

place to begin looking into vote problems.

To work so hard for this cause in a way we couldn't get done otherwise...and see suspicious.

First thank you thank you thank you.

But I think you are right...they have missed the posts and don't know of you. I do understand irritation With Nader...but they must not know much about him either. My own sense is he would not try to help Republicans-or Democrats. He WOULD try to help the truth be revealed, so I can see why he would work with you.

If there is fraud it HAS to be revealed.

And through your work and his willingness and the funds and help of many more here is a real start at "hard evidence" of irregularities.

Muchas gracias, Mahalo, Danke schön, Grazie and Thank you

I've sensed your sincerity and urgency since this first broke, and I feel comfortable investing all my trust in where this is going, even with Ralph Nader involved.

There are strategies which some folks here just seem blind to. Particularly infuriating are those people who keep shouting "why aren't we investigating Ohio or Florida instead!!" Don't they realize that every good criminal investigation hinges on one piece of shatter-proof evidence, regardless of where or how it is found.

Consider it only a warning of what we want to avoid, and No I have not had time to read every single here.

I'm certain of it. Kind of. Link to follow. Maybe.

:)

I went back to read your posting, and was deeply touched by your work. With your personal effort, you were able to get other people like Nader involved. This really gives hope to all of us. We must not give up, no matter how small each of us seems.

The recount of New Hampshire is important. Regardless its finding, it will educate the public about electronic voting machine, and the potential problem involves. It is not about who win or who lose, it is about integrity and accountability. I wish those democratic leaders can have the courage like Nader.

Frankly, I deeply disliked Nader when he ran for president this time. I was afraid that he would take away votes from John Kerry. Guess what, now I have serious doubt about John Kerry. His disappearance after election speaks a million words of his leadership (the lack of it). Furthermore, I have deep doubt about democratic party. I used to be their big supporter. But this time, No other democratic leader has come out, nor Moveon.org or Democracy for America (Howard Dean's organization). Are they so defeated?

nader is NOT a republican or anyone elses stooge.

he may be stubborn and intractable but he is as honest as abraham.

"this explosives story is a diversion from the real issue - wages"
Yup. Honest.

Bill Maher tonite bring something up about Ralph Nader and New Hampshire. to be continued?
This was the first I have heard of this but by the sounds of it, Nader was going to expose something rather uncomfortable for a certain party. (not us)

and I connected a devoutly Democratic DUer who spotted some voting anomalies that would be more easily detected in a small state, and who hence wanted a NH recount, with my rabidly lefty Burlington VT Progressive Party chair, in a chain that ultimately led to Nader.

The idea, and the people who sold it to Nader, is 100% GOP free, and 99 97/100% DU. No sekret plot to rool the world here. You can put the tinfoil away.

The anomalies correspond to a particular optical scanner. If we can show that that machine gave incorrect counts in New Hampshire, we have a powerful argument that there should be a manual recount anywhere that machine has been used.

Yeah, its looks a bit circuitous. But it makes sense to do the proving in the easiest place to prove it, first. Then we can nail them in Ohio and Florida.

Circuituous is an understatements. WHY NOT FLORIDA?

And every other state in the union, if possible.

In Florida we have until TUESDAY to get the paperwork in, and the rules are different -- it has to be within a certain percentage difference between the two candidates, otherwise the state won't allow a recount. Also, New Hampshire's deadline was Friday, and I had already done the number crunching for it, so I knew I wanted it; at the very least it could be a "control check."

Sounds like you have some time on your hands -- ready to help out? We need some help with phone calls on Monday to the Secretary's of States to get the "when does the paperwork have to be turned in/how much does it cost/what are the rules" etc stuff. I think we've got the information on about a dozen of the states now....

PM me, and I'll hook you up with the person coordinating that activity, if you're interested. :)

I can't thank you enough for all you've done. And, please let me know how I can help. I'm in the LA area but I work from a home office do could probably help out... please let me know what I can do!

that YOU were one of the people who made this happen! No matter what happens here on out, THANK YOU!!!

(And I should probably mention, I'm technically an Independent, as is my husband. I support Kerry for President, however, 100%!)

Is there somebody who can tell us when we need to give more money if needed and who to give it to?
I'm paranoid that we won't be able to get a recount somewhere because doesn't have enough $$. Is somebody organizing the money effore? BBV?

Thanks in advance,

Melissa

That we will not be able to prove fraud, save democracy and prevent the world from going up in a nuclear holocaust in 8 years merely because we couldn't pony up $100,000.

They must have zeroed in on a particular machine(s?) that spit out wacky results. Now the wording of Nader's request for a recount or at least a partial sampling makes more sense. So then it may not be a full recount, just enough to show the machines totally unreliable.

This is a hot subject.
Please keep us all informed. OFTEN.

:yourock:

nader is not the enemy. Get real

He hates Bush. He knows New Hampshire is one state where the exit polls were way off. NH is a small state and should be easy to recount with paper trails and such.

The fact the Kerry won only makes this process more acceptable to the public, especially if something really strange happens. This is perfect.

Now the question is whether they find any big differences in votes. If they don't, is that it, or is there a reason why?

"Tonight on 'Countdown,' we'll examine the N.C. mess (which would not include a second presidential vote), new fuzzy math in Nevada, allegations against the Democrats in Pennsylvania, Ralph Nader's news conference, and the other voting developments as they occur."

Nader would like to do all states! NH is first because it has the first date. Ohio you say? The haven't even certified the count. That's Friday. The man is on no one's side. Correction: He's on the side of the voter.

Fess up! We know you're Keith Olbermann!

Welcome to DU Keith

Absolve Diebold, that is.

and as far as i can tell, nader detests bush as much as anyone?
how would helping bush benefit nader?

Why would anyone thing he changed his opinions after the election? He's still using Republican money, and he's still the ugly stepchild for the GOP.

Support Nader only if you want 4 more years.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

You don't have to support Kerry to support democracy's values. In my opinion it is this type of foolish rhetoric that fuels the notion that we are 'Wild Conspiracy Theorists'.

If we start to adopt character assassination as an instantaneous tool simply because we do not agree 100% with somebody, then we are no better than the repubs....

I never called into question his character. As far as I can see, he's loyal, resourceful, committed and dedicated to re-electing George W. Bush. He's said as much himself many times. As you must know, he wants another four years of W. because... (insert excuse du jour here, usually it's "THEN we can take America back" - after we give it away, lock stock and barrel.

Nader's not stupid. He knows this argument doesn't hold water. I personally don't care what his "reasoning" is or what his "motivations" are, all I care about are his actions and all that he has done to undermine the Democratic party and elect GW.

He always ignores the fact that there will be no ship left to steer if he gets his way.

And you might want to quit using "we" unless you're willing to list all the people you think are included in that term. I, for one, am not part of your "we".

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

is get more focus on the vulnerability of these machines to tampering, etc.

You really oughta ease up on what yer' smokin'. ;)

You cannot seem to argue with any of his positions, so you always resort to attacking his motives or to ad hominem arguments. These would be better suited to a freeper site, but are unwelcome and frankly embarrassing here.

That's all one needs to know who he's working for. It's as simple as that. If I tell you I love you and stab you in the back so no one else cna have you, does my motivation matter? I would still be a cold blooded killer, right?

Well, you're the United States and Nader loves you. His motivation or reasoning doesn't matter. His behavior is almost always destructive, certainly so for the Democratics.

Why can't you see that simple truth?

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

As we are all hoping, then I hope you are Man enough to post an apology to him within the forums. (yeah yeah, what am I smokin, but hey, if you are willing to question a man's motives as ulterior when he is one of only a verrrrry small handful of Political leaders right now willing to come to the forefront to defend democracy as we know it, then an apology , as rhetorical as it may be, would probaby be in order....)

I have no access to them. Only his actions, which have helped the Republicans time and time again. Never does he help the Democratics.

If, as you seem to hope, he is helping the Democratics this time, or Democracy in general, I will take note, however I have no intention of apologizing to anyone as I have not said anything that I regret.

So far, there is no evidence that Nader, even on this one instance, is helping Democratics. He's challenging the vote count in a state Democratics WON. Forget your diviniations of his "motives" for a while and look at the actions. Everything else is just rhetoric and projection. I care not what his motivations are much in the same way as I care not what the motivations of Bush are to start an illegal war, or the motivations of someone who murders out of "love" or any of these things.

Motivations, real or projected, do not excuse one's actions.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

Your statements are silly and petulant.

I do note, however, that while you criticise my statements with a blanket dismissal, you don't engage or address the issues I bring up.

That's fine with me, but your statement could be improved if it included details and at least one supporting argument for your position.

Show your support for the president, wear a FUCK BUSH button!

http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13
(We usually ship same or next business day by first class mail)

late in day, election day for Kerry campaign. One guy approached us with a twinkle in his eye and said driving west to east from Vermont on Rte 101 that day, it was a sea of signs for Kerry-Edwards traversing the entire state.

Earlier in the day we held signs at crossroads in Goffstown and in Deerfield. I can share that Goffstown drivers were not that friendly but many of them were truck drivers. In Deerfield it was ALL THUMBS UP! Must have been 90/10 for Kerry. Seriously, all thumbs up, smiles, and horns steady through an otherwise sleepy town. (I haven't had the chance to yet look up how the town vote was reported.)

One of the women canvassing with us who lived in Manchester, said the nation is going to get a real surprise when they see how big Kerry wins here. Such was the momentum she felt.

I was in western south NH (what I know to be typical repub country - all the local pols are repubs) a few months ago and struck up a conversation with a clerk in a Dollar store. The conversation moved to Michael Moore's Fahrenheit and the election. I said "Well I realize I'm in Republican country" and she said, "You'd be surprised how many people up here want Kerry!" I felt like "WOW-Really?"

Well all this was in the southern part of the state where I think you get a lot of Mass transports, but still that last town is typically repub.

With all that, I was STUNNED to hear how close the results were reported to be. I said, can't be, had to be greater...that was my "gut" feel. (Just as my shock for the nation's reported "results.")

I think the recount is VERY WISE and very much needed. I salute Ida and all you others who have been so on the ball with this. True Patriots you are!

That was nice to hear. My gut tells me the same, that John Kerry not only won the election nationwide, but took NH by a far greater margin than indicated. We'll soon see! :toast:

Nice to have you here, selmo7! :hi: And thank you for all of your hard work during the campaign. Not all of us here in Texas are unappreciative, believe me! You'll find quite a few of us here on DU from the Lone Star state. And we do NOT claim Geo. W. B*sh. ;)

But he still is a champion of the people and pursues what he thinks is right, and a man of amazing courage to see his convictions through no matter who goes on their knees begging him not to.
I would want him on my side always.

It's worth the risk as far as I'm concerned.

1. I have no doubt the presidential election was stolen with e-voting - NO DOUBT!

2. I understand why we are pursuing NH for the recount. I see how it get the ball rolling.

3. I think we are being tricked.

WHY?

The 57-41 and 58-41 exit polling results were a plant. The Repukes obviously had access to the early exit polls before anything was leaked, and they knew what the results would tell everyone: a sure Kerry win. They knew that after they manipulated the machines, people would surely find out about it using statistics and common sense (like we have).

So what did they do about it?

They went and changed one. They manipulated the NH exit poll results so we would call for a recount in a state that requires a paper trail, which would "confirm" that no cheating occurred (and possibly this is why Nader has answered our call - no, I don't trust him. How could I?).

Why do I believe this?

I remember seeing two early exit polls, and the one most people weren't using polled Kerry up by 3% in NH(the one not leaked from the NEP). In this less used poll, Kerry had basically the same margins as he did in the NEP in the other questionable swing states (but not NH).

Remember, the evidence of vote fraud isn't strong in NV, which requires a paper trail, and ME, which doesn't use e-voting. Do you actually think the Repukes hadn't considered NH's paper trail? Please people, come to our senses. We can't let them use NH to tell us were wrong!

Just look at all this:

This is from some message board on election day. I'm sure you can find this post if you google search some of the search terms:
*
Wonkette sez: Repub Luntz's numbers... (none / 0)

5:25 p.m.
From an email circulated by Frank Luntz:
Way too close to call/BUT leaning Kerry by 1 percent
Fla.
Ohio
Pa.: 54 percent for Kerry
Wisc: 3 point lead for Kerry
Iowa.: 1 point lead for Kerry (Bush supposed to win)
NM: Kerry plus 2
Nev: Bush plus 1
NH: Kerry by 3
NJ: 8 points for Kerry
Colo: Bush plus 2
Mich: Kerry plus 4
*

Notice how every other state matches with the early exit polling, except NH!!!!

Also check out this post here about exit poll numbers:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=1290765&mesg_id=1294000&page=

Another clue:
Zogby had +5 for Bush in his pre-election polling. +10 and higher is outside of the MOE.

Rove eagerly pointed out the huge "lead" in NH on FOX:
http://www.registerguard.com/news/2004/11/09/ed.edit.exitpolls.1109.html

Also, here:
NRO's Kathryn Jean Lopez proffers the following set of numbers at 5:28 PM:

Kerry-Bush
FL 50-49
OH 50-49
PA 54-45
WI 51-46
MI 51-47
NH Kerry +3

NV 48-50
CO 46-53
NC 49-51
MO Bush +11

http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/001709.html

And here:
NUMBERS WE'RE SEEING
WARNING: I'M REPORTING WHAT WE ARE SEEING. IT DOES NOT MAKE IT THE FINAL RESULTS. ONLY THE VOTERS DO THAT. (And excuse cap letters, but everytime I warn, half the readers tell me I should have warned and the other half say I am pathetically desperate.
Kerry-Bush
FL 50-49
OH 50-49
PA 54-45
WI 51-46
MI 51-47
NH Kerry +3

NV 48-50
CO 46-53
NC 49-51
MO Bush +11

http://www.nationalreview.com/thecorner/04_11_02_corner-archive.asp#044577

Also, please read this article again, and pay careful attention to the part on NH:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/031104dontmatch.htm

Remember, Kerry became the first Democrat since Woodrow Wilson in 1912 to beat a sitting Republican president in New Hampshire. Do you really think he would win by 18 points, out of nowhere?!? And why were these specific numbers leaked so heavily and reported by on by the same corporate media who said they wouldn't discuss exit poll numbers?!?

We're relying on rational thought and statistical proof to conclude that Bush cheated. Please use the same rational approach to statistics to realize it didn't happen in NH!!!!!!

FOR GOD'S SAKES, WERE BEING TRICKED INTO PROVING OURSELVES WRONG!!!!!! DO NOT GO THROUGH WITH THE RECOUNT IN NEW HAMPSHIRE!!!!! THEY MANIPULATED THE EXIT POLL DATA TO THROW US OFF FROM THE REAL FRAUD!!!!!!!

read the whole thing, it's revealing:

http://forums.windrivers.com/showthread.php?t=65809

I really think we're walking into a trap.

I've just never posted on a political message board before. If you want, go to the Detroit Pistons message board. I post there as Nitro, and in the off-topic section, I've been battling against Bushies there for weeks.

there's no way to predict that we'd go after a state Kerry won. that would be giving them way too much credit — and if they were that smart then I don't think we'd be having this discussion, cause they wouldn't have been so sloppy.

So many people are working on this from so many different directions, that there really isn't an organized "we" who could be led into a trap like the one you are hypothesizing. There are tons of little traps being set, and the ones that we can be most effective in avoiding and in helping others to avoid are the public opinion traps that seek to mislead people about what is going on.

can ask for a recount in either OH or Florida. It doesn't matter what Nader is doing in New Hampshire. Do you see Kerry asking for a recount?
He has the right to ask for a recount, but he doesn't want one. So, leave Nader alone, at least he is doing something. Which apparently Kerry doesn't want to do.
:eyes:

If Kerry so much as opened his mouth at this point, can you imagine the uproar from the rw media? I think the point another poster made about kerry being an experienced prosecutor is important to remember.

There is a lot going on under the surface and behind the scenes IMHO.

Nader can't hurt us by any means. If he does this and shows the machines were manipulated in a small state.... The snowball rolls on to other states. Then Kerry puts him in a high post as pay back for getting him in the WH! What does that beer commercial say? BRILLIANT.

It shows the NH machines were clean, and we don't even get a chance in OH, FL, and the other swing states. Don't let Nader ruin democracy in NH.

Things were going so well in 2000 after 8 years of Clinton, and guess who stepped in burst that bubble?

that the machines are clean? That should ease your mind a lot! It is the paper trail that helps US. Plus any lawyer can argue a positive out of a clean bill of health in NH too. So I just don't see it hurting us at all.

Green and Libertarian party candidates are joining up to do it. Nader can't because he wasn't on the ballot in Ohio.

This was posted elsewhere on DU

<http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/111304V.shtml>

A Legitimate Recount Effort in Ohio
By Steven Rosenfeld
AlterNet.org

Friday 12 November 2004

An effort led by Common Cause and the Alliance for Democracy is underway in Ohio to conduct a statewide recount.

Efforts to launch an official statewide recount of the Ohio presidential vote are underway. While it's unclear if a recount will result in a Kerry victory, it's likely to highlight many flaws in Ohio elections that may have tilted results toward Republicans and against Democrats.

Common Cause of Ohio and the Alliance for Democracy, a progressive coalition, Thursday announced they were launching a recount campaign for Ohio. Columbus, Ohio attorney Cliff Arnebeck, who represents both groups, said both the Green Party and Libertarian Party presidential candidates would seek a recount if the $110,000 filing fee could be raised. "Common Cause and the Alliance for Democracy are not partisan. The purpose of the recount is to verify the honesty of the process," Arnebeck said. "That is in the interest of anyone who would be declared the winner." <snip>

Why? Blackwell(!):

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/109645029737250.xml

This guy gives Bush everything he wanted, but he didn't give him Nader on the ballot. Blackwell gave Nader the excuse that he can't contest Ohio, and that's why he has to contest NH.

The Dems and Rs worked together to keep third-party candidates off ballots in as many states as possible. That's why we have such an overwhelming two-party system -- after John Anderson and other third-party candidates made inroads, the Ds and Rs made it much more difficult to get on the ballot. In Europe and Canada there are many more viable parties than two.

Blackwell kept Nader off the ballot in Ohio -- so in the event of a recount, it would be a Green and a Libertarian instead of Nader to ask for a recount? Come on. Use your noggin.

...to absolve Diebold if this aren't dirty in NH. Remember, the Republicans knew NH required a paper trail. Also remember there two sets of early exit polls, one had Kerry +18 and one had him +3 (and both had the same margins in the other states).

+3 seems a lot more believable in NH, a state that hadn't been blue in a hundred years. The +18 was outside the pre-election tracking polls' margin of error and could have been a red herring. Rove mentioned the +18 on Faux News.