Who actually believes this election was stolen ?

The story is gaining momentum on DU ? Do you agree with those that think this election was stolen or do you believe it is mostly conspiracy thinking with the possibility of a few anecdotal instances? And do you believe this is a detriment to mounting a strong defense against the Repubs in the next election.

Personally, I believe it is altogether possible for the Repubs to do anything. I believe they are capable of stealing an election. However, I have not yet come to the conclusion that they actually stole this election. Where is everyone else on this issue? Do you think this election was stolen?

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

PISSED and they are trying to find ways to take action. I had never seen it go down before this. *shaking head in awe*

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

Tshirt available (Click image - More on the way):

i'm still undecided. let's see what hubby thinks once he's checked his mail.

And talked about voter fraud with BBV

Since Eisenhower left office and JFK was assassinated. Let's review, shall we -

from another assassination - Bobbie Kennedy, who would have been the 1968 Dem nominee (and Martin Luther King Jr., also assassinated 1968) (1968 - out Humphrey, in Nixon)

with help from an insidious October surprise - Kissinger interfering with the North/South Vietnamese peace process, thereby launching the bombing of Cambodia and the genocidal Pol Pot regime (1968 - out Humphrey, in Nixon) (see The Trials of Henry Kissinger)

to outright theft/burglary - Watergate (1972 - out McGovern, in Nixon)

and the other October Surprise - arms/$ to delay release of Iranian hostages - remember 20+ mins after inaugural address? (1980 out Carter, in Reagan)

to maliciously slandering propaganda - Willie Horton (black man) revolving door ads (1988 - out Dukakis, in Bush1)

to mass voter disenfranchisement in particular of African Americans in Jeb Bush/Katherine Harris's Florida (2000 - out Gore, in bush2)

to the slimiest of all - large doses of new voter suppression, voter slowdown combined with e-voting with no audit capability and so much more - (2004 - out Kerry, in bush2)

you don't need no October Surprise, when you know the future is guaranteed! Now I understand why Clinton said the Repubs were surprised when he won as they NEVER thought the Dems would/could win another.

STOLEN STOLEN STOLEN

Voting machines, vote suppression, kicking people off the rolls, other standard vote fraud techniques as well. No brainer. The Repugs were FAR too involved in ALL their classic techniques -- which we had glimpses of even before the fact -- for it to have been anything but.

Down deep, I always knew it would be stolen, but my magical thinking led me to believe they wouldn't try it again.

WRONG!

They did ... and they will again and again ... because they can't win in a heads up race.

I would gamble my house on it .

not that I can prove it

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

SUNDAY Nov. 7 2004: We’re awaiting independent analysis on some pretty crooked-looking elections. In the mean time, here’s something to chew on.

Your local elections officials trusted a group called NASED -- the National Association of State Election Directors -- to certify that your voting system is safe.

This trust was breached.

NASED certified the systems based on the recommendation of an “Independent Testing Authority” (ITA).

What no one told local officials was that the ITA did not test for security (and NASED didn’t seem to mind).

Who ever heard of voting into a machine that won't give you a printed verification of your vote???

Who ever heard of politicians spending 2 years fighting the people who asked them to change the machines so that the voter gets a printout ???

Who ever heard of spending more money on legal fees fighting the people who asked for a paper printout, than it would cost to alter the machines so that a voter got a paper printout ???

Why was it so important to these people to prevent a paper printout ???

I tell you, these guys who thought we would just lay down (or bend down) and take this really overplayed their hand on this one.

I've gone through shock, grief, denial, and I'm staying here in the anger stage until we get to see these perps go down. :evilgrin:

I have been wondering the same thing all along. So obvious in hindsight about the fight to prevent a paper trail.

STOLEN

sort of like a tea kettle just before the steam makes the spout whistle and I will stay angry until we get our country back.

I didn't know there was a $100,000 reward!! http://www.jtmp.org/

Just curious: how come blackboxvoting.org isn't linked to your website?? Last I heard (on Randi Rhodes' Show from Bev Harris 0n 11/11) is that they're going to do a recount of Florida.

That's big news!!

Here's one simple way to approach all the arguments for systematic fraud in this election. The systematic difference between the exit polls and the machine counts was far to large and widespread to be due to chance. So there are two possibilities: the election was rigged, or the exit polls were rigged.

We have plenty of technical evidence showing how easily the election could have been rigged with the equipment that was used. There's plenty of evidence that Republican neo-con strategists and voting machine makers allied with them such as Diebold have been working on a massive electronic vote fraud scheme for years. Diebold promised he would deliver Ohio's electoral votes to the Republicans, and he did.

Either they stole it because it was that close or people are really that stupid to vote for Bush after the past 4 years, either way its not a good thing.

and either way i feel sick.

:shrug:

That the voting process itself was corrupted is inarguable, imho. There are far too many credible reports of voter suppression (vote on November 3rd, you may be arrested, provisional ballots, etc.), voting machine 'glitches' strangely biased in Bush*s favor, and voter registration fraud (Democratic registrations discarded or subjected to unjust scrutiny) to be ignored. Whether or not it was sufficient to capsize the result, while very important, is not as important as the fact that it happened at all significantly.

We as a people aren't that stupid, no doubt it was stolen. The big question is what are we going to do about it?

On the other hand, a guilty conscience or two would be helpful.

on the phone to Republican contacts in Ohio, and they told them that Kerry was going to win....Both these men were resigned to a Bush loss....What happened after that?....Something is fishy!!!!

party, they will be having mea culpas all over the place.

I think if they try to bring back prohibition it will be all over.

where we can go to get any messages from the Kerry Edwards legal team?
maybe we can help from here

Like you said they are capable of anything..........cheats ans liars always are

and stolen now!

It takes a grand leap of faith to believe people who have already stooped to lying invading and slaughtering both Iraqi and American lives would hesitate to rape the process at EVERY FUCKING OPPORTUNITY.

voting machines, I new we would have to win big. But the exit polls do not match machine states THEY DO MATCH PAPER BALLOT STATES.

and I hesitated to hit the "post" button because I know that's not a popular sentiment here. But, honestly, I'm not. Yet.

I'm open to the evidence, whichever way it goes.


MDN

Why is the exit poll always right when bush wins and was predicted to win but almost always wrong when Kerry was projected to win? Why when the machines are cought malfunctioning it is always in Republican favor? More votes for bush than people who voted etc...

Go to a casino and see how they rig the slots, same sh differnt day.

Whether or not it was enough to successfully sway the results, is the question...

the more I believe. I put nothing past these people.

the numbers of voters and votes counted are way off in Florida and Ohio and a few other states.

also exit polls were pretty accurate from 1968 to 2000,in 2000 they started diffreing a lot in some places.like Florida

this year exit polls were way off in places that used e voting that did not audit or have a trail.like Florida and Ohio like 5-10%
something stinks.but in Nevada that did audit and have trail it was only off 1% which is what it used to be on avg from 1968-2000.

its funny how after 32 years you cant trust something anymore.

There are enough voting machine irregularites to point at fraud and the stupidity of the voters. Bush/Rove showed political genius in building and milking the radical religious fanatics. We didn't see that coming. With that milking comes his payback to pick far right wing SC judges. American theocracy in bloom.

TruthIsAll Donating member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Fri Nov-05-04 04:56 PM
Original message
FOR MIKE MALLOY & DU: THE ELECTION FRAUD SPREADSHEET- BEYOND THE MOE
Edited on Fri Nov-05-04 05:37 PM by TruthIsAll


THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS:
IN THE STATES WHERE THERE IS A PAPER BALLOT TRAIL, THE EXIT
POLLS ALMOST EXACTLY MATCHED THE VOTING RESULTS.

IN THE STATES WHERE THERE WAS NO PAPER TRAIL, THE EXIT POLLS
WERE FAR FROM THE ACTUAL VOTING RESULTS.
BUSH GOT 6.25% MORE VOTES THAN THE EXIT POLLING INDICATED.

ALL THESE NON-PAPER TRAIL STATES SKEWED FOR BUSH. NONE FOR
KERRY. EVERY DAMN ONE OF THEM FOR BUSH.
WHAT ARE THE ODDS OF THAT?

See Results http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2610467

Where there are paper trails, the exit posts are close. But Bush streams ahead when there are no paper trails Surprise, surprise.

I just didn't think the electronic voting fraud would ever grow legs.

Thank you, DU.

It has legs.

They got get that pipeline in AFGAN flowing after all the trouble stealing it and all:freak:

...and in another thread, I pointed out how I think it could have been done with the help of just a few "white evangelicals". Rigging an election to achieve "god's will" would be far less morally ambiguous to these people than say shooting a doctor or blowing up a clinic.

of S&L, Silverado, Iran/Contra, BCCI, Election 2000, Election 2002 perpetrate another fraud to keep their massive, ill-gotten gains?

Or, has the USA, which has been consistenly trending progressive, suddenly shifted hard right?

And if vote theft wasn't necessary, why would it be necessary for right wing idealogues to own the vote machine corporations and why on earth would they fight tooth and nail against a paper trail?

I grant you there are plenty of ignorant and fearful people in the USA. But I will not believe they make up the majority of the voting populace.

I will believe that known fraudsters have committed yet another fraud before I believe that the citizens of this nation are trending nazi.

Stolen for all of these reasons - insightful words, vidali, about the American people- and clear logic about the liars.
I know why the polls were overflowing with new voters, ready to wait their turn.

makes me sick. So, I don't think we should. Thanks for your words, Mira.

Edited to add: Welcome to DU!

I really can't believe that the Red States are that stupid.

Iowa, Florida, Arkansas - I just don't believe it.

I will never believe it.
Are there WingNuts ,lots of them, in the Red States, absolutely.
But, I will never believe it!

And they sure were quiet with the so called energy. Where were they at all the rallies for Bush?

I saw huge crowds for Kerry in many of those places. It was not as if Kerry ignored them! He was inclusive.

Fraud, fraud,fraud

after following Bev Harris and Greg Palast for the past several years I believe they stole FL in 2000 and if they'd do it then they'd do it now.

I believe it with every fiber of my body and I believed it as it was happening. I live in FL and I know that there is NO FUCKING WAY that Bush won by 5% without help from his baby brother and friends.

The exit polls in OH had 54% women voting for Kerry and 51% men voting for Kerry - and Bush wins the state.

My entire life until 2000 I have watched exit polls and they have always been correct - they are correct in other countries - hell they were correct in some of the states in this election and now suddenly in 2000 in FL they're wrong - 2002 in GA they're wrong - 2004 in selected states they're wrong

The CEO of Diebold promised to deliver the state of OH to Bush

and finally and probably most damning in my mind Hastert and DeLay blocked the Dems who wanted a paper trail in the Help America Vote Act and my only question is why in GOD'S GREEN EARTH WOULD YOU OBJECT TO A PAPER TRAIL IF YOU WERE NOT PLANNING ON CHEATING.

So for these reason not only do I think it happened I KNOW it happened

The media won't touch this unless we make a lot of noise. This is too damn important to just roll over and take it.

Thank you.
You said exactly what I have been feeling.

We will never have an honest election again, until we return "integrity", to our voting system.

(Republican values...what a joke)

they did it in 2000 and have been planning a successful theft of 2004 ever since.

And if this isn't rectified, we can kiss all future "elections" goodbye

I believe this is how dictators get started.....

No proof of a Bush victory. No proof of a Kerry defeat.

Only evidence so far is that E-Voting results without paper trail cannot be proved as being accurate against exit-polling or number of registered votes. When a vote believes he voted for Kerry and results in "spoilage" or "Bush vote". The lack of paper trail invalidates the voting machine's usability and invalidates the results.

The investigations by BBV and others are necessary to prove the results are valid regardless of outcome. Republicans should welcome the research because accountability is one of their common mantras. The lack of accountability should be the best argument.


Free America

...or at least you ask an interesting question.

Who won, if only "traceable" ballots are considered, and how closely do they track the exit polls?

IOW, did Bush win the e-vote and lose the paper vote?

I don't know. I wouldn't even know where to look. Just asking.

I believe that the information I've seen brings the results of the election into serious doubt. There are just too many irregularities in key states. Do I know for sure? No. Would I demand a recount? Yes.

but we'll likely never see this hit the mainstream media

<http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041105/ap_on_el_pr/voting_problems>

Machine Error Gives Bush Extra Ohio Votes
Fri Nov 5, 6:04 PM ET
By JOHN McCARTHY, Associated Press Writer

COLUMBUS, Ohio - An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush (news - web sites) 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said. Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites)'s 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct. Bush's total should have been recorded as 365.

Bush won the state by more than 136,000 votes, according to unofficial results, and Kerry conceded the election on Wednesday after saying that 155,000 provisional ballots yet to be counted in Ohio would not change the result.

Deducting the erroneous Bush votes from his total could not change the election's outcome, and there were no signs of other errors in Ohio's electronic machines, said Carlo LoParo, spokesman for Ohio Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell.

Franklin is the only Ohio county to use Danaher Controls Inc.'s ELECTronic 1242, an older-style touchscreen voting system. Danaher did not immediately return a message for comment.
===================================================

More at the link.

This is mainstream media, I would say!!

ailsa

The (false)implication is that Bush now has more votes than before the "error."

The word "error" is more spin. The AP guy doesn't know for a fact that it was an error.

In fact, there was incompetence in Franklin County elections office. They failed to validate the election data they were receiving.

I have an interactive web page and I programmed in validation of user inputs. Why don't the clowns in Ohio do that? Why didn't the clowns in Florida 2000 do that, too?

Was it because that way they could slip in -16,000 votes for Gore?
Why did it take a DUer to find the Gahanna "error."

Note: all "errors" benefit Bush, never a Dem.

See my thread on a new "error" in Ohio:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x26390

Subject: Miami County, Ohio. Fraud or incredible coincidences?

We are on a mission!

They clearly stole it. They orchestrated 9/11 after all, there's no limits anymore on what they can do.

this coming from a former flight attendant. There is no fucking way a plane can fly in the OPPOSITE direction for over an hour and not have ground control tracking it.
Pilots are required to check in with air traffic control every so many minutes. If there is something even slightly abnormal flags are raised immediately.
Also has anyone ever heard from the air traffic controlers working that day?

It's so obvious.

Yes it was stolen but now how do we prove it.

But I sure as hell think it is better to know if there has been tampering so as to better understand exactly what we're up against.

There is absolutely no way that after what I saw out there as a poll monitor, from the long lines of people waiting in the rain for hours, knowing and having seen first hand the exit poll data and now learning about irregularities and glaring differences between exit polls and the results on electronic voting machines.

Also, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize and have a hard time reconciling how on GAWD's earth a man who has been an utter failure as a President of this country and has a record of failure could have won the popular vote when 4 years ago before he screwed this country up, he lost it.

They can throw out this red herring of "Moral Values" having somehow driven out the people from the church to the voting booth, but I ain't biting....those people standing in line in the rain in Ohio weren't there to vote for Bush....

They had too much at stake to NOT steal it, it could be argued. They did not want to surrender the best oil in the world, that in Iraq. It flows like gold honey. And they have not given up on the pipeline in Afghanistan, you can bet on that. Also, we should not forget that they want to make their taxcuts permanent and maybe give a few more to their friends since they smell the blood in the water. So there are several motives that would entice them to grand thievery.

When I saw how many new voters Bush got over the last time, I just cannot believe that that many extra voters exist. I also cannot believe that Democrats would not pick up new seats.

In California, the Republicans have targeted Kevin Shelley, our secretary of state who has decreed that diebold machines wouldn't be used in California - we *know* they are trying to get him out for partisan reasons.

Especially after seeing the graphs on percentage increase differences in paper trail and non paper trail in Florida. It would be interesting to see the results WITHOUT the non paper trail votes.

Because after the 2000 debacle in Florida, steps should have been taken to prevent disenfranchisment of voters in 2002 and 2004-- instead, the problem appears to have increased in scope.

The issue of voting integrity is fundamental to representative government.

And the fact that it's a question which goes to the heart of whether we remain a representative democracy, makes it an entirely meritorious issue to demand an answer to; on a Constitutional, as well as moral basis.

Gyre

We have no effective representation. HALF OF THE DAMN COUNTRY HAS NO REPRESENTATION AT ALL in Washington. Sure, we have senators and congresspeople - all nearly totally irrelevant. The only thing we have left is a small amount of power to block stuff in the senate.

Bev Harris' 30 minute online movie can be view free here:
http://www.votergate.tv/

Really enthralling and after you get done watching it, I'll bet you won't have any more doubts.

descended over this country. We have fanatics in power who will do anything to remain in power. Anything. And this will become more evident to us all when the movement moves out of the virtual world into the real world. At that point our friends and fellow patriots may be in peril

...2000, 2002, 2004... are we going to let it happen again in 2006? Like Mike Malloy says, it's probably the last chance we'll get to set things straight.. they only need 5 more senate seats and the can steamroll their agenda thru both the House and Senate...

we need to take it back... one city, one town at a time...

    "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes for the president"
      Walden O'Dell, CEO

how can you believe anything else? These thugs cheated to get the chimp installed four years ago. Anyone think they were going to be on the up and up this time around? This is Rove we're talking about. There's no way he didn't cheat.

finished.

There are many more to steal -
more Congressional seats, governorships
and state legislatures.

It will be done through computerized
voting with or without a paper trail
and using optical scanners on paper ballots.

The rest of the world: Take heed or you
will be next.

I saw a report on the Diebold machines that do not have a paper trail and it was said that some states outlaw the use of voting devices that do not provide the means for recounts. I just cannot remember which states do. Still, they were used!

Anyway, being Mexican I have seen it once, I have seen it a thousand times. The minute the results started appearing on the TV screen, I knew the fraud was in full swing.

The PRI ruled here for 70 years, always through electoral fraud. In 2000 the PAN party had a very popular candidate (Vicente Fox), when the elections took place, by about 10 o'clock at night only about three hours after the polls had closed (one hour in the Pacific time zone areas) the exiting president (Zedillo from the PRI party) gave a "concession speech" for the PAN candidate (he wasn't the one to concede but he did it anyway). Elections in this country are done using paper ballots. He knew who had won based on the exit polls! That is how reliable those are. I just thought it be prudent to mention this.

You Americans have to defend your vote with your lives. If your vote is stolen, so is your freedom.

made it illegal to recount? Didn't they say something to the effect that since the counties and precincts havee widely varying methods of voting, it would be impossible to perform a recount? (wouldn't that also make it impossible to do a count?)

And as I said before, further down the thread, it was STOLEN!

about voter purging and suppression, I would put nothing past those thugs. I have been suspicious of the Diebold machines ever since I heard of them and although I monitored the media all day Monday and Tuesday, did not hear a PEEP about possible irregularities because of the electronic voting machines. AND I do not accept that the Moral Majority countermanded the GOTV efforts of the left. People waited for HOURS to vote. Registration was up in so many states. I thought it all pointed to a strong Democratic presence at the polls.

So yes, I think it's entirely possible the election was stolen. I am grateful for the behind-the-scenes work that is going on right now before the electoral college votes in December. A lot could happen between now and then!

Peace,
AL

Before the election, Kerry asked that people send
in money to pay for the lawyers' fees for any
problems that needed to be contested.

How much was sent in?

Who has that money now?

If any of it was spent, where are the receipts?


After reading the other thread, I am thinking
it is both stolen and he was a stalking horse

It was all a vast conspiracy. See this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x25601

After the 2000 debacle in Florida-- yet bet I do.

That election proved that voter fraud was rampant-- these guys will stop at nothing...

ailsa

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/235059/250

Quote:
I've decided that perhaps what is needed is a 'manifesto,' a 'declaration of purpose,' 'mission statement,' whatever.
So, I've taken a first step in drafting a simple statement for the purpose of declaring the following:

====
No one has been elected and no one will be elected, until we the People of the United States of America, are provided universal access to the same ballot format, until each eligible adult has had the opportunity to register and vote, until each ballot has been recorded and every ballot stored by the Library of Congress.

This is our demand.
=======

I want to see a call to the citizens of America to come to either their State Capital or the Mall in DC on 12 Nov. I want to see not just the 55+million who voted for Kerry, but all those who voted for Bush and all those eligible to vote to face, on that day, the pivotal decision of their life and the future of this Nation. I want them to answer the question: Are we a Democracy?

If so, then I want them to demand fair, equivalent access to a ballot, to the unambiguous recording of each ballot and to the preservation of all ballots so that future generations, if ever tempted to mess with the franchise, have a repository of what those of us who honor the brave patriots of the past 228 years did on 12 Dec 2004 -- we stood together, all Americans, and we made certain we are all truly equal in the most crucial, most fundamental act that binds us, our respect for each other's choice of those who we elect.

I will post this as soon as I pass the current 24 h period because I already have two diaries.

Related Diaries:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/175321/453
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/12227/0995

We are approaching 150 Kossacks who have either expressed support, support plus willingness to put their shoulders to the wheel, and/or recommended the diaries.

I will keep striving for each of you to have Markos elevate this call to action to the forefront of dKos and help bring others to the cause.

Thank you.

by understandinglife on Fri Nov 5th, 2004 at 20:56:28 PST

<http://www.therandirhodesshow.com/todays_show.html>

Check out these exit polls-- compared to the machine tallies.

Some are OK-- some are definitely suspicious!!

ailsa

<http://www.buzzflash.com/analysis/04/11/ana04025.html>

Why Did CNN Change Their Exit Poll Data for Ohio After 1:00 AM?

A BUZZFLASH NEWS ANALYSIS
from a BuzzFlash Reader

The CNN Exit Poll data on the CNN web site was later changed. Why?

Please note the time stamp of 1:05 AM.

<http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=980>

my heart and soul is ohio...i grew up on the banks of the maumee river......i have voted and supported repubilcans all my life...i switched this time...and know I was robbed... i don't misjudge my state.... I am it.

Gut check. I've never felt that my reality was stolen right before my eyes. Thanks Ohio! WE know you tried. Some here are still trying.

Cut down the number of polling places in minority areas in Ohio and Fla -- white people can vote in minutes, black people get 4 hour lines.

Move precinct polling places in minority areas so the 'colored folks' can't find them.

Don't count provisional ballots. Don't allow provisional ballots outside of a person's "precinct" (if they knew where the f*ck you moved their precinct polling place, they would'a voted there).

Place the defective, older voting machines in the poorer areas -- more "spoilage" that way.

Don't count the absentee military ballots from Iraq (unless the Pentagon passes the special ones on to the states).

Democrats are just too goddamn trusting and too reactive instead of pro-active.

And they'll keep stealing elections until the dems grow a f*cking spine...


:nuke: bush

Even if the case is solid, I'm not sure how much it helps us.

Practically, proving vote fraud in court is going to be exceedingly difficult.

Getting a reasonable remedy is going to be even harder.

Convincing the bloviating republicans that they should accept said remedy will be impossible.

prove, in a court of law, that massive vote fraud occurred. Yakking about it on websites or even on national news channels does nothing.

And who will decide what the remedy will be? The same repubs who are in office now?

And how to convince repub majority government to accept voting reforms that will make sure they lose next time? It ain't gonna happen.

I truly don't know how this can be fixed, unless the country is bankrupted completely and the delusional believers are forced to see exactly what is happening to them via Bush and the PNAC. They are locked into denial.

Do you guys know of any scientists (software engineers, statisticians, etc,), who could look at this scientifically? People respected in their fields, who could publish/contact the media?

Talking about it only doesn't help. And the more time passes, the colder the trail goes.

I am disappointed that the Democratic party is still frozen in shock and doesn't seem to be doing anything to get this looked into.

All the progressive issues we work so hard to advance feel like moot
points now if we can not trust our voting system to count our votes
faithfully. Yes I feel the election was stolen, and its a dagger in
the back to our democracy. I can even live thru another four years
of the wacked out loons if we can't nail this bastard. But I can not
advance thoughts of working on any other issue then this one..this
one issue is so grave it superceedes all other causes for me.
In the immortal words of Mike Malloy, 'Dear Fucking God'

I'd love someone to point me to a web page or a blog site that is proving this and trying to do something about it.
Also those of us liberals who live in the South are kinda tired of being lumped in with the red state BS, millions of people who live in red states voted for Kerry. We don't deserve ridicule. If you think that living in a Georgia precinct that votes 90% Republican and you drive around with Kerry Bumper stickers,have yard signs and wear Kerry tee shirts is nothing short of putting life on the line for your beliefs;then you are the ones with the low IQs.
Lay off the red states. There are millions of "blue" people in them.
We all have to work together to make these states blue. I'm thinking of starting a web site for "purple" people Blue voters in red states.
Meanwhile I want facts on how and where this damn election was stolen and a site that is valid to research them. If you can help please write me at redtailwolf@cox.net......Thanks

it was my first thought watching the results come in. something just doesn't add up.

Now the conservative Repugs are feeding on the Moderate Repugs and we can all sit back and enjoy that carnage, especially since the news networks are ignoring Votergate, and even C-Span is choosing not to cover the large amount of voting irregularities.

...if Kerry is quietly working on a legal counter-offensive.

If not, then I think the election wasn't so much 'stolen' as given away.

and really believe that they are capable of anything. I have read story after news story which claims voter fraud. Last night, I watched the documentary "Unprecedented: The 2000 Presidential Election," and was appalled. I knew that it was bad, but it was worse than even I imagined. And I think that they got away with far more, this time, and in more states. I cannot imagine how, since we were supposedly prepared, but I do believe that it happened. I just don't know what to do about it, except wait and hope. I live in a blue state.;(

I believe that as long as the system doesn't change, discussing firther campaigns is futile. this was # 3 in a row - and they get better at it (compare Florida 2000 to Florida 2004)

this impossibility? Where are the fraud investigators? My point is that we can't be so delusional as to think that all we have to do is have Bev prove there has been fraud -- it has to be someone or some organization that can stick it to the Repubs in federal or state court. Otherwise, it's just noise.

There are certainly some strange numbers in the swing states. I think it bears further investigation, but I think that it's premature to come any conclusion.

Won't even let them discuss the possibility that this was voter fraud. He says everybody is satisfied and there was very little actual voter fraud. Bullshit.

In two ways:
BBV fraud

In Broward County, where Jeb appointed the Supervisor of Elections, and the voter turnout is far below normal for the county.
In other counties in swing states like Ohio and Florida, that I am less familiar with, where they used fraudulent programming to alter the outcome of the vote.

Voter suppression:

By making it difficult for people to vote in heavily Democratic precincts with few machines, challenges, etc.

However, I think that some of the threads here need more thought before we go beserk. They are just plain wrong. We need to get our facts straight and not lose credibility.

Both parties in Ohio expected a Kerry win. Everyone I know expected a Kerry win here. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that Bush won this state honestly.

They KNOW that if they were totally honest about their plans they'd lose.

They KNOW that if everyone voted and if all votes were counted they'd lose big time.

They have an ideology based on the principle that the ends justifies the means. They don't see stealing and cheating as wrong, but as a moral imperative.

Bush remains illegitimate. He has no mandate.

He's not my president. Again.

In some places and states. Florida and Ohio, for instance. Any state that allowed a majority of electronic voting was manipulated. Quite some time ago, the president of Diebold said he would deliver his state to Bush. And that's exactly what happened. It's not a fluke. And how can anyone expect the vote in Florida to be right? Jeb is still governor, and most of the state election officials are Repugs.

Voter fraud is real and deadly to our democracy (little d as long as a county with 600 registered voters can give 3000+ votes to one candidate).

In order to win against such a system, Dems will have to overwhelm the polls. Even then, if the software program switches votes, it may be hopeless.

Count the voters, then count the votes. It'll be obvious.

The more I've read, the more I'm sure that Diebold (as well as the other three) did exactly what they said they would do.

not confident that the election was not stolen. The fact that the Republicans did not get 100 percent behind efforts to fix this problem months ago makes me suspicious.

I know that still believes in Liberty. I am not rolling over and letting them steal this country. I just joined the ACLU with a contribution and sent BBV 50 bucks. I am prepared to defend my country and will stay in this fight. Fuck the "healing".

No matter what we believe in our hearts, or gut, we aren't going to convince anyone that the election was stolen without a lot of evidence. People are going to think this is just sour grapes or sore losers complaining unless you can show them indisputable factual, evidence.

Hunches, polls etc... are not good enough. I believe it could have been stolen and I am certainly for election reform, the must be a way to conduct accurate recounts in a democracy. But consider this, many people think OJ did it, and he won in court. Many people think Peterson did it, but there is only circumstantial evidence. How can we back up our belief in a way that other people will be convinced because the evidence will show them the light?

now I do. I also think they may have stolen some Senate and Congressional seats as well.

If these people could START A WAR based on lies and complete fabrications in front of the entire world, if these people could possibly LIHOP or even MIHOP 9/11 as some suggest, then stealing an election would be mere child's play to them.

And maybe I haven't seen a clear smoking gun just yet, but the circumstantial and anectodal evidence that this was stolen is mounting. If these were isolated instances then maybe they could be explained away, but how do you explain away all of them?

and now they are working on the coverup

shouldn't be too hard for them....

they did quite a coverup on 9/12/2001 and on 2000 elections...so they have had practice

but the smell from the "mandate" is getting ranker and ranker....

In Indiana....

"At about 7 p.m. Tuesday, it was noticed that the first two or three printouts from individual precinct reports all listed an identical number of voters. Each precinct was listed as having 300 registered voters.
That means the total number of voters for the county would be 22,200, although there are actually more than 79,000 registered voters.
Spevak said workers at the clerk's office thought a computer correction could be done once they received a software patch from Election Systems and Software, the Chicago company that provided the tabulation software. However, the patch did not work."

http://www.michigancityin.com/articles/2004/11/04/news/news02.txt

In Ohio...
"An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said.
Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry's 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct. "

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041105/D865R1DO0.html

In Florida...

"According to the official election results posted on the Palm Beach County election website, 542,835 ballots were cast for a presidential candidate while only 454,427 voters turned out for the election (including absentee). This leaves a discrepancy of 88,408 votes cast for the presidential candidates.
Palm Beach County's supervisor of elections is Theresa LePore who is known for the 2000 Presidential Election and the notorious "butterfly ballot" that caused confusion among seniors and other Floridians.
Other election oddities occurred throughout Florida with some counties registering a 400% increase in expected voter turnout among Republicans while Democrats supposedly experienced a -60% decline in expected support within certain counties. The 50+ counties experiencing the high percentage fluctuations in expected turnout used optical scan voting machines on November 2nd. "

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000715.html

In Ohio again...
""LEBANON - Citing concerns about potential terrorism, Warren County officials locked down the county administration building on election night and blocked anyone from observing the vote count as the nation awaited Ohio's returns.
County officials say they took the action Tuesday night for homeland security, although state elections officials said they didn't know of any other Ohio county that closed off its elections board. Media organizations protested, saying it violated the law and the public's rights. The Warren results, delayed for hours because of long lines that extended voting past the scheduled close of polls, were part of the last tallies that helped clinch President Bush's re-election.
"The media should have been permitted into the area where there was counting," Enquirer attorney Jack Greiner said. "This is a process that should be done in complete transparency and it wasn't." "

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/11/05/loc_warrenvote05.html

Quick, everybody who thinks the Warren County, Ohio Board of Elections is number one on al Qaeda's list of US targets, raise your hand...if you can get it out of the straight jacket sleeve.

In Florida again...
"Early Thursday, as Broward County elections officials wrapped up after a long day of canvassing votes, something unusual caught their eye. Tallies should go up as more votes are counted. That's simple math. But in some races, the numbers had gone . . . down.
Officials found the software used in Broward can handle only 32,000 votes per precinct. After that, the system starts counting backward.
Why a voting system would be designed to count backward was a mystery to Broward County Mayor Ilene Lieberman. She was on the phone late Wednesday with Omaha-based Elections Systems and Software."

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/politics/content/news/epaper/2004/11/05/a29a_BROWVOTE_1105.html

In North Carolina...
"BEAUFORT - Bill Henderson spent weeks encouraging people in Carteret County to get out and vote. Now, the chairman of the county's Democratic Party isn't even sure his own vote was counted.
Henderson was one of 7,537 Carteret County residents who voted during the no-excuses, one-stop voting period in October. Wednesday, he and thousands of early voters wondered whether their ballots were recorded along with those cast on Election Day.
Less than 24 hours after the mistake was found, no one could say for sure. All Carteret County election officials could say is that more than 4,000 early votes cast electronically were lost. There were 3,005 early votes that were valid, but Henderson said everyone who goes to the polls should know their ballot was tallied."

http://www.kinston.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=23648&Section=Local

In North Carolina again...
"A systems software glitch in Craven County's electronic voting equipment is being blamed for a vote miscount that, when corrected, changed the outcome of at least one race in Tuesday's election.
Then, in the rush to make right the miscalculation that swelled the number of votes for president here by 11,283 more votes than the total number cast, a human mistake further delayed accurate totals for the 40,534 who voted.
The glitch occurred Tuesday night as absentee ballot totals for one-stop early voting at three Craven County locations and ballots mailed-in were being entered, said Tiffiney Miller, Craven County Board of Elections director."

http://www.newbernsj.com/SiteProcessor.cfm?Template=/GlobalTemplates/Details.cfm&StoryID=18297&Section=Local

In Pennsylvania:
"Lark charged that a number of voters may have been disenfranchised by the problems that shut down voting machines for all or most of the day. Some precincts didn't have enough paper ballots for people to fill out, and Lark said he suspects some people didn't bother coming back when a new supply of paper ballots arrived.
It would appear that about 4,000 votes could be unaccounted for.
Lark said that number wouldn't include people who simply gave up trying to vote because machines were down and paper ballots unavailable.
The unofficial vote count released by the county showed that Bush narrowly carried the county. "

http://www.vindy.com/basic/news/288078640794824.php

I am going to donate money to Bev Harris and Black Box Voting so that they might be able to continue their work, in voter reform and possibly proving that there were major problems that could have effected the outcome of this election.

I hope that every person here at DU who is following these election fraud threads will do the same.

next question.

myself included, thought we had a chance. The fraud, intimidation, and sleezy tactics weren't even hidden this time. I was all done right before our eyes.

And then there's Kerry, they guy we thought would be our champion. I was a Clarkie at first, I knew he'd fight. But then when I listened to Kerry and heard what he had to say, saw him stand up during the debates and campaign against the corrupt bush*/KKKarl cabal, I started to believe in him. Well, apparently I'm still way tooooooo trusting.

When the fight gets tough, the Dem candidate rolls over. That's apparently the new party motto.

again?

Since theft was POSSIBLE, all attempts must be made to prove it wasn't.

No one is making those attempts. Yet.

Until it's shown otherwise, I'm gonna believe it was stolen.

Bottom line, it shouldn't be a possibility.

We knew going in to this that we had no confidence in the election process. They stole the last election and sullied forever that last bastion of "justice," the Supreme Court.

The admin did nothing to assuage our concerns about fair voting over the last four years. We begged, pleaded and petitioned for a voting system that we could trust and they ignored us.

We were hoping for overwhelming margins that could not be ignored but that didn't happen. Still, we won and we should not cave in now.

We now know what this admin is capable of and where they are headed. They could bury us in 4 years!

Statewide in Colorado, Dems won all across the board. Salazar beat Coors, John Salazar won for the House, and Dems are now a majority in our State Legislature for the first time since the 60's. Every Dem running won, or close to every Dem at least.

Then oour state votes for Bush. Does that make any sense? Everyone decdes that Dems are better in the Legislature, but apparently, Republicans are better as the "overlords" of our country.

Odd.

In OH, which Kerry lost, Kerry did way better than other democratic candidates running for other races.

just kiss any chance of election of a Democratic Candidate good buy.
I mean, even paper ballots in the end are added up on a tabulator (computer). Without a manual re-count, you can cheat with paper ballots just as easily as you can cheat with electronic voting machines.

To quote our (un)fair leader.

IT WAS STOLEN!!!! They did it in 2000 - we know Gore could have won Fla if the recount was completed. This time they just did it a little different.
In little bits and pieces it is all adding up.
As for the OPs question: "do you believe this is a detriment to mounting a strong defense against the Repubs in the next election."
NOPE - We gotta figure this out now. If we're right, the Repugs will look like the treasonous bastards they are. If we can't prove it, we still have plenty of time to analyze and plan for 2008. But we have to keep it going right now while it's fresh and before too much evidence 'disappears'.

Through a massive nation-wide campaign of disenfrachizement and fraud. The patterns of illegal activity were observed in various places and brought together by some on the internet before the election even happened...then, of course, on Nov.2 the predictable nightmare came true.

This is our last chance to try to bring some election-riggers to Justice for crimes they have been committing in the last three elections!

Washington establishment Democrats have been in denial about treacherous neo-con activities from vote stealing to 9/11...JUST LIKE ESTABLISHMENT GERMAN SOCIAL DEMOCRATS WHEN THE NAZI'S STAGED THE REICHSTAG FIRE PROPAGANDA SPECTACLE AND PUSHED THROUGH "EMERGENCY" LEGISLATION TO TERMINATE DEMOCRACY IN GERMANY!!!

Now those old Washington Democrats in denial have been completely wiped out of power...it's time to face the truth:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/

You've got to admit the bastards were clever, we all knew it had to be close in order to be stolen and they did it right under our noses. We were so enthused by the high number of newly registered voters that we really didn't notice how well they were doing getting out the vote. Be assured, my precinct was mobbed by 7 am and it went bu$h 85-15! In most places these numbers would be suspect in themselves but I'm afraid not where I live. This is not to say that I believe this morality vote crap but it provided sufficient cover for the theft.
I don't see how we can beat this thing without some big help from the so-called librul media. I suspect democracy is dead in this country.

and I think many here on DU saw it coming and the &*$%# STILL did it.

I don't think we can be silent about it...we can't make it any easier than it already is for them.

11/02/04..the day democracy died in the U.S.A.

See Greg Palast’s article. (Link opens in a new window.)

and no one will ever convince me otherwise. There are just too many weird things coming out about thousands of votes added here for Bush, and lost votes there for Kerry.

I believe, "The Truth Is Out There" and we will find it.

:think:

now I am 100% convinced they stole it.

But nothing will ever come of this unless a whistleblower from the inside comes out with hard proof. What are the odds of that?

eom

I thought it was obvious as soon as the election returns began coming in. There's just no way the exit polls could be off to the tune of a 6% swing!

no doubt

it wasn't.

I want to know if Kerry knows it was stolen.

I heard on one of the talk radio shows that John Edwards was given info from Greg Palast's investigations on BBV weeks before the election and was extremely concerned. He promised to pass it along to Kerry.

As sitting senators, I don't understand how they were unaware of these BBV problems. Are our reps that out of touch?

I believe the election was stolen. When I found out that Bush, SR. and his buddies pushed for the Diebold computers, I knew. The fix has been in since 2000--and the planning for it long before. I am not prone to conspiracy theories, but this is ugly and huge and devastating.

we are talking George Bush right, Carl Rove right?

the one who says "I have no intention of losing the election"

right?

the one who has the owner of Diebold up his ass and in his pocket...right


CMON...THEY STOLE THE FIRST ONE...DO YOU THINK FOR ONE MINUTE THEY'VE TURNED OVER A NEW LEAF OR SOMETHING.............?

OF COURSE IT WAS STOLEN!

coincidence. Every machine they could fix was fixed, every ballot they could toss, they tossed. They got away with it in Florida in 2000 and they learned the lesson well and on a larger scale.

The signs were there, the disinformation of Republican despondency on the morning of the election, just enough to lead us on, because it made it that much more of a great big ha-ha for the Bush Cult.

Don't look back, George W. Bush. Something's gaining.

Too many "coincidences" in *s favor

....Consider the election results in Jefferson Co. KY.....a dark horse Mongiardo leads until the closing moments and voila Bunning squeeks through.....I understand the W.Ky analysis regarding GOP strength however the adament refusal to even discuss EV on a local/national level suggests major suppression to me....not to mention the evidence now accumulating....Best Wishes from the Bluegrass

When exit polls completely contradict the final vote, there's something foul going on. Accumulating evidence certainly points to theft. I remember saying last week, that the only way chimp was going to win was by stealing it again.
Well, he did, and this time they were smart enough to steal enough popular votes all over the states to give him the majority in both EC and popular vote.
Now, I don't think they were positive it was going to work, hence their glum mood even last weekend. But by the end of Tuesday night, they received word that all was going according to plan.
Lo and behold, out came the repug talking heads, decrying the exit polls, and out came the monster, assuring us of his impending win.
It was an evil, but brilliant plan, and it worked. Will it be uncovered and will we be able to prove it? I hope so.

But my belief is not proof. We need hard solid evidence.

I know there was vote suppression in my area. WHy should things be arranged so that black students in New Orleans have to wait 8 hours to vote, as it was reported they did at Dillard and Xavier Universities, while people in heavy GOP areas like St. Tammany get to vote in under an hour? Little stuff like that makes me go "hmmm."

Without a paper trail in key states? And, can it be done in time, before 12-13???

Plus, and I SO hope I'm wrong, but can we count on Kerry to step up to the plate if all this info is handed to him on a silver platter? I am hoping he is just lying low to do what needs to be done behind the scenes so that he doesn't look like a sore loser (ala Gore in 2000). And, if all this info is exposed he'll come forward and accept the presidency.

Debbi

I know we had the numbers to win. They knew we had the numbers to win. The only ones who seemed certain of anything were the Bushies. They knew the fix was in. Something went terribly wrong in Florida AGAIN (Voter suppression and BBV) and I think there was tampering in other states too, in order to give them their little Man Date. We all KNOW it was close, but we were ahead.

Unless we give this our full attention we'll lose our democracy.

Fucking BASTARDS!:grr: They knew they had to win the popular vote as well as the EC this time around. No 'questions' then.
Fucking neo-con bastardscum!

I hate these people :cry:

Tucker Carlson/Crossfire

I absolutely believe. I wouldn't put it past those bastards to cheat a 9-year old with a lemonade stand out of a nickel. Let alone the American people - the prize is so much bigger.

and what pissed me off was watching bush and one of his daughters laughing in what looked like pure contempt and mockery when Kerry gave his concession speech. CBS showed the bush family responding at the beginning of Kerry's speech. Wonder if anyone else caught that?

:nuke:

DemEx

they were emboldened by their success in 2000, losing support among sensible republicans, and faced with a very pissed off opposition with a large turnout. of course they stole it. the question in my mind is: why would anyone think they DIDN'T steal the election?

The fix was in, no doubt. But it sure will be an uphill battle to prove it, and our efforts to prove it have little chance of gaining traction in the SCLM unless Kerry gets behind them publicly. That's not bloody likely I'm afraid.

Exit polls indicate as much. And of course BBV (all Repug.owned companies). I hope there's a serious recount effort going on.

I'm not saying Bush doesn't have supporters here, but anyone who likes him now voted for him in 2000. And lots of people who voted for him in 2000 were planning to not vote for him in 2004. I just can't see him picking up many new voters here. Even some very Republican areas were going for Kerry this time.

And the implications are terrifying
The question is whether we'll be able to prove it AND survive the HUGE propaganda campaign to discount that proof if it comes.

But I don't think they can cover this up completely.

If we don't stop them here and now, we won't have any more true elections, ever.

They blatantly stole the election in 2000.
Who among us is naive enough to think they would not do it twice?

On closer inspection, the exit polls seem to be "overstating Kerry votes" only where no-trace e-voting occurred. Some coincidence!

Ironic that the "solution" to the problem of hanging chads is the ultimately hackable and unauditable electronic voting machine.

It was a nice representative democracy while it lasted.

Can the Gov of NM Richardson perhaps win in 2008?

I hope we do not put H. Clinton up then.

I put nothing past the Repubs.

Efforts were made to steal it as always, but the election was really lost.

n/t

People don't turn out in unprecedented numbers and stand in line for hours in inclement weather in order to maintain the existing order.

But the more I read about this, the more I wonder. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

by a regime which will do anything to maintain control of this nation.

http://www.independentmediasource.com/evotingfraud.htm


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BREAKING -- SUNDAY Nov. 7 2004: Freedom of Information requests at http://www.blackboxvoting.org have unearthed two Ciber certification reports indicating that security and tamperability was NOT TESTED and that several state elections directors, a secretary of state, and computer consultant Dr. Britain Williams signed off on the report anyway, certifying it.

n/t

Malloy was right. The Georgia switchover to 100% Diebold machine voting with no paper trails was the first experiment in finessing a 'cleaner' steal. No question in my mind.

OK, this may be crazy and who knows if we could ever pull it off, but what if we vote again. Not republicans, because they'd never go for this. But what if some smart web designer created a site where under each state, under each county, you could list your name as validation that you voted for Kerry. Of course we'd have to get the word our really well to put your name up there. And we'd have to figure out some way to avoid hacking. But I'm sure without even having everyone's vote we'd find out it was more than what the fraud elections showed. This could be our proof. Maybe I'm dreaming, but I don't know how else we're going to prove their fraud. Any thoughts?

Check out this website-- you can query state/county

<https://voteprotect.org/index.php?display=EIRMapNation&tab=ALL>