KERRY WTF is Your Problem??!!!

We deserve better. You know the possibility of fraud is real.
I am starting to regret supporting you at all, other than to say screw Bush.
That's what you call leadership??!!

He broke his promise

Whatever that means.
I'm simply creating a discussion.
It is not over. I repeat. It is not over.

I am very disappointed in him. He promised to fight and he didn't. Shame on him.

it is early. maybe we will be justified?

i was a deaniac. i dont regret working for kerry though. i will be very dissapointed if after all the got your back, and count every vote, that they didnt even put up a sqeak.

for me its scorched earth. rove and bush are criminals, there supporters support a lie.
we are the majority. the declaration of independence specifically tells us to deny this.

Whether it was the "right" thing to do or not, Kerry's quick concession before all the votes were counted and his utter silence on the documented cases of voter fraud and suppression speak volumes.

I don't think anyone in the Republican party could have done more to demoralize rank-and-file Democrats -- I'm thinking especially of those Democrats who were energized for the first time to go out and vote, those who stood in line for hours, those who drove cross-country to ensure their vote would be counted because they were told over and over by Kerry that this election was up to us -- Kerry's actions, no matter how rationalized, really leave me feeling let down and bewildered.

When Howard Dean's campaign ended, I was devastated, but I didn't feel betrayed. With Kerry's concession, I feel devastated and betrayed.

"betraed" by america and by kerry.

I don't know much, but I was a online campaign volunteer, and I've heard from my sources that Ohio is definitely being looked into - quietly. My impression is that they don't want a repeat of the circus of 2000, where Rove and company were able to intimidate everyone. What this "looking into" involves is beyond me, but I know that the news of the last few days has not gone unnoticed.

They know that the concession is not legally binding. I think he wanted to avoid the "sore loserman" (remembering that makes me so angry) label and make sure that there is a chance that something can be proved wrong before he put his name into the fight. Meanwhile other people are investigating for him. It's not fair really to expect him to be a one man campaign against election fraud. Before Bush there was never all this suspicion about election cheating! When a case is created, I am sure he will make public his decision to fight.

is outfoxed the fox. It may turn out to be the most brilliant move in his career.

The longer he avoids the media, the more time everyone has to build an overwhelming case for fraud.

If Kerry hadn't conceded, the counting would have stopped and he would have been Gored.

watching, waiting...then when fraud is proven, they will pounce.

campaign for a run in 2008. At least according to the Daytona Beach News Journal. Page 13, Section A. Sorry no link, it's in the paper.

<snip>
He's positioned himself for a full-out presidential run in 2008, a campaign that in a way he's already begun.

<snip>

saying or doing anything about the rigged 2004 voting is not making me
think of him as a candidate for 2008.

Do they realize that they have left us in the lurch - and we are now leaving them? permanently?????????

Stealing the election AND destroying the Democratic Party?

I'm still holding out a hope that those who say Kerry is pursuing a clever strategy are right, but if they're wrong and the demo party dumped us like this.... I'll never support them again.

assuming there even is an election by that time, which is debatable, we'll all be told to shut up and get with the program, in the interest of unity, because he's the only choice. Same old, same old.

I was really excited about Edwards, more so than Kerry to be truthful, but someone please tell me, What is it that makes the Dems just roll over again and again?

And BTW, Pallas, what makes you think we're leaving them? We have nowhere to go and they know it.

Note: Where's that smilie for "sick and tired of being sick and tired."?

Or we're they reporting their worthless speculation?

It's a news story, but it does seem trashy and speculative. The headline is "Edwards poised for run in '08" and the reporter is Liz Sidote out of Washington. That's why I'm not giving it a lot of play, but the story is out there.

If he is doing anything it is being suportive to his wife and family.

It is another KKKRove trick to make us believe that we have been abandoned.

Kerry and Edwards don't need all this bashing right now.
They need support from us.

They are not the enemy, the enemy is the Chimp who thinks he has a mandate.

Let's get the message out about FRAUD not Edwards.

:toast:

I remember during the campaign that AP would report all these false reports.

Not to be trusted, sherilocks!

about 2008.

supervisors are refusing to let anyone check the totals and machines...so how has his backing out and down helped anyone prove anything.....we're out here working on our own...

Jesus Christ...Howard Dean shoud have been the one. His wonderful big mouth would not have let this go by.

Some of us are too patrician to raise a stink, methinks.

So, Dean's mouth has been controlled now by....What, exactly? Haven't you wondered why ALL the leading Democrats are silent? Think it is even possible that they know more than we do? I, for one, am not about to claim that I know what's best. I don't have all the facts. I do have an inkling of what they're up against, however, and caution is key here.

Direct confrontation without proof would be disaster. We need to give them time to gather the data. Nader is challenging NH. Badnarik and Cobb are going after Ohio. Establishing a trend in NH with the optical scanners would lead to investigations in other states. There's no rush. It needs to be done right, not quickly.

When you're right, you're right! :yourock:

Think you could tell my kids that I was right once? They never do believe that's possible.

If we play our hand before it comes to fruition and FAIL, then no one would ever touch the story again with a ten foot pole. They have one shot at this and they better get it right the first time, because there won't be a second.

Doesn't anyone else think that the entire Dem leadership going silent is indicative of something? If they STAY silent, then we can label them as cowards, losers or whatever. But until then, save it for later. There's work to do!

I'm trying very hard to see the logic in his drastically early concession but it eludes me still. I have been very burned by weak kneed Dems and vicious take no prisoners Pukes. It feels like Kerry didn't want to go through the hell bush put Gore through and just quit. Desperately hoping I'm wrong though.

of the replies, but in 2000, as soon as the lawsuits started flying, all counting was put on hold until after court decisions were made. Those decisions, conveniently enough, were made just a wee bit too slowly for any effective count to be made after that. Deadlines just started ticking by.

I have not given up on the fight or on Kerry/Edwards.

from Fucking 2000!

"I have not given up on the fight or on Kerry/Edwards"

Nor have I!!
:bounce:

that this loud silence from Kerry means he is working very hard behind the scenes checking into Fraud. If so, it was a wise move, as some others in the DU think. Wouldn't it be AMAZING to wake up to the headline:
"Voting Irregularities Turn Election to a Kerry Victory!"
O8)
May the Saints and Angels be with us if there is hanky-panky.

I think they have run out of money and lack the intestinal fortitude.

.

How many "Kerry abandoned us" threads have been posted so far? How many rebuttals to that theme have been posted?

Jeebers. Let me go bang my head against the wall instead of explaining it all over again.

Kerry is staying above the fray.

Okay, but you know, if there were ever a time to "be in the fray," this would be it.

and the fact that it, for the most, is not on our side. kerry is playing it smart right now, and keeping the coulters, hannitys, o'reillys, limbaughs, and others quiet. let them babble on about evangeicals, morals, and mandates for now...
while the evidence is being gathered.
keep the faith folks...it's not over yet.

If Kerry and the DNC come out swinging on this thing I'll be right there with them. Until then I'm betterly disappointed and feeling betrayed by people who told us they would fight.

Now retreat no surrender my ass.

there are several threads right here with the results of prelimary analyses of the numbers from this election, among other things.
the election was definitely stolen. if our side is going to prove it, it's going to take some effort on our part.

Seriously, you can't keep banging your head. Soon, stuff will fall out, and you won't be able to find all the little bits.

If you want to see some REAL headbangers, check this out, and then wonder why these votes count the same as ours:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3981669.stm

Amazing what good propaganda can do to a totalitarian psyche.

Kerry was atty general/Mass . He's smart enough to know you don't bring a case to trial unless you can prove it.

The "Kerry abandoned us" threads are just an excuse for the usual Kerry haters to vent.

But here's the thing. I'm here every day. Reading, mostly.

If I had a dollar for every time someone has posted, "THIS IS HUGE!", or the equivalent thereof, I'd be sitting at some resort right now drinking mai tais.

I've been disappointed too many times. I'll believe it when I see it.

Shouting "this is huge" does no good unless you can back it up. Knowing something is true and proving it are two different things, especially when the organs for disseminating that information are controlled by the other side.

Don't forget - Kerry still has four years of his term in the Senate left. If he starts crying foul without some real, concrete proof - proof that would show beyond a shadow of a doubt that this election was stolen - he would make of himself a laughingstock - and would become ineffective in his ability to fight Bush through the legislative process.

The world didn't end on Nov. 2nd.

we are so passionated that I keep forgetting is being only 5 days!!! since the election...

but think of the enormous pressure that Gore encountered in 2000. If Kerry (or others on his behalf) come out weeks later, after everyone is "adjusting" to that asshole getting "4 more years," I imagine the media of 2000 will look like pussycats compared to the way they would behave with Kerry. How could this play out, I can't imagine it...

we had never seen this scenario before. Fox news wasn't really a factor before 2000 and it seemed obvious that we should start fighting immediately.

There weren't organized protest groups like we have now, like Code Pink, ANSWER, etc. But the repugs brought in there boys and FLorida didn't know what hit them. They had a counter strike ready for every move the dems made.

Today is different. Their is a huge base to call to action. Google Nov. 3rd pledge. All these people know how to organize. They take pepper spray in the eyes, rubber bullets you name it. And if someone says the word "Go" My understanding is that we go. That's the difference between today and 2000.

I'm becoming convinced that they stole it again. I was ready to believe that there WERE that many knuckledraggers





Peace?


Trinity :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

Educated Gut Feeling and all!

I know Kerry won..I just want them to be able to prove it..and Kerry to be working on this, too.

I agree with the DUers who think Kerry is behind the scenes doing this quietly away from the fascist media attention.

It's like he had to "concede" to lull them into a false sense of victory so we could get the bottom of this and come out with proof.

...I was thinking same this afternoon. It sounds logical that they would be "quietly" looking into this. (cross your fingers)

...gotcha!:D

If he did THAT and had nothing "directly" to gain, SURELY he's working on THIS behind the scenes. THIS directly impacts his life and every U.S. citizen's life. I can hope.

why Kerry has not gotten as much credit as he deserved for the work he did on that.

I think everyone owes this team the benefit of the doubt at least for now. When we are sure they have abandoned us, then we can cry foul. But for God's sakes, right now they have to out Rove Karl Rove

I keep dreaming of a press conference..."My fellow Americans, it seems we have a new fight on our hands. After a week's worth of investigations by the nation's finest attorneys, we conclude and will prove that a massive fraud has been perpetuated on the American voters...."

this is why he has been keeping very quiet

edited for grammar

While I would like to believe that, I also would like to believe that I will win the lottery.

and not given up on this completely

It is obvious that a lot went on below the election surface.

Power conceding nothing without demand, as usual
by Jenny
http://michiganimc.org/feature/display/7637/index.php

The easy smile on Kerry's face as he conceeded to Bush should have made a
few things clear. There are reasons why Kerry conceeded so quickly, there
are reasons why he never mentioned a single instance of voter fraud or
intimidation throughout the day on November 2nd as widespread evidence of
disenfranchisement was surfacing (at least through independent media
outlets) and there are reasons why he didn't use his concession speech as
an opportunity to articulate even mild opposition to Bush policies.

The reasons are rooted in the fact that Kerry has much more allegience to
elite power in the U.S. than he has or ever will have to the millions of
disenfranchised and unrepresented voters in this country. Speaking out
against voter fraud would carry an implicit challenge to the myth of
American democracy. Why should Kerry take the risk of challenging the
legitimacy of the system? He is a pro-war, neo-liberal imperialist of the
millionaire class. He has nothing to lose and much to gain from another 4
years of the Bush administration.

Given this realization, it's critical that everyone, from the Democrats
who actually saw kerry as an alternative to the liberals who merely wanted
"anyone but Bush" conduct a serious interrogation of how the notion of
"electability" dominated political discourse leading up the Democratic
primaries. Many people opposed to the Bush administration's policies
supported Kerry because of his so-called "electability." At the altar of
"electability" many progressive people sacrificed their politics and their
self-respect. November 3rd has arrived and we are left with the
devastating failure of this logic - not only is Bush still President but
national political discourse is even more entrenched around a pro-war,
neo-liberal imperialism.




I was really hoping that maybe….just maybe things would go our way. Ok, so it hasn’t and a lot of it doesn’t make any sense. But maybe it will now.

As I said, I wanted Kerry to win...I thought that he had our back so to speak. Let me suggest this, which millions of people already know, and millions more are unaware of . Our European friends know more about the destruction of American than we do.

I suggest that Kerry was a set-up. It was never intended for him to win (and I donated, what a fool)... I liked the guy.......I bought into it too.......Did you ever wonder why Kerry never went after Bush, why he didn't fight sometimes, why he isn't fighting the fraud. Why he just didn't come out and say that 9/11 happened on Bush's watch? Bush and Kerry are skull and bones….what is the likelihood of two skull and bones members running for president? None…it was planned. Bush needed a real race…he could have had one with Howard Dean…but “they” saw to it that his campaign ended quickly. Howard Dean was a surprise, and he was a threat to their plan.
Do you not think how strange it was that they played the Dean scream for 1-2 weeks? Media is in on the plan. You know this. We have all tried to get our stories out to the media, and have failed. Every once in a while they toss us a bone, and we like fools become elated. Time to wake up and smell the nightmare.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

"The easy smile on Kerry's face as he conceeded to Bush should have made a
few things clear. There are reasons why Kerry conceeded so quickly, there
are reasons why he never mentioned a single instance of voter fraud or
intimidation throughout the day on November 2nd as widespread evidence of
disenfranchisement was surfacing (at least through independent media
outlets) and there are reasons why he didn't use his concession speech as
an opportunity to articulate even mild opposition to Bush policies."(snip)


....could also explain them keeping low until the evidence is insurmountable of voter fraud.....

but what do I know...


Peace?


Trinity :hippie: :smoke: :freak:

his voice cracked at several points. I think he was devastated.

no "easy smile"..that's all bullshit.

NOtice how the fascist media were so quick to point out how "we" went wrong..and no one listens to Bruce Springsteen?

wearer ever, and I heard all that from the beginning. Had my suspicions after the Dean scream and Kerry rose from nowhere.

But if you think they tore apart Kerry, can you imagine what they would have done to Dean in a full campaign?

I took off my hat to work for Kerry and I'm not giving up. There definitely are powers that be in the world controlling things. But there is also a fight for control among them. Some amazingly powerful people came out against Bush over the last year.

If your post is right, then I am headed to plan B and that is not pretty, but I hope it is wrong.

be silent but put his attorneys and others to work on checking out the facts on the irregularities everyone is reporting. Counties with obvious anomolies in the counts that used the Optiscan counting software could be recounted using the physical ballots.

If he's not doing this, then he's not living up to the word he and Edwards gave us, that every vote would be counted.

Just Florida alone looks like such a mess on close examination and there are many ways that the count could be audited and rectified before the results are certified, and Kerry could WIN THE ELECTION.

If we don't do it for this election, then WHAT?

I think you are right.

Kerry was not afraid to butt heads with these same guys in Iran Contra and BCCI.

I am hoping he's playing a long con on them here.

We're already seeing an advantage of this approach: people who didn't necessariy so how great a threat Bush was to democracy are now waking up and mad.

Bush has shown his hand for what he will do in a second term, which should make sane people even madder.

He retreated AND surrendered. Tremendously disappointing.

The allegations of FRAUD were always there because Repbublicans made the vote counting machines and Republicans don't want the paper trail. Notice how Kerry lost all these states by a couple of percent or more- too big a margin to trigger a re-count, even though he was leading in exit polls.
Who are we kidding? We will never win another election if Republicans continue to count the votes, IMO.

and practiced it in GA in 2002 -- where it got a little out of hand, changing pre-election polls strongly favoring both Barnes and Cleland to a ridiculous post-election swing percentage. This time they seem to have gotten it just right.

OTOH, maybe not -- this thread contains a LOT of links compiled from DU over the past couple of days, along with an action plan for letting the world know:

VOTE FRAUD? Tell everyone you know
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=201x1800

Maybe Kerry did cut and run. If that's the case, I join you all in your disappointment.

But, in your wailings and condemnations of him, I hear the voices of the rightwingnuts who backed up Bush's attack on Iraq, prematurely, without enough information, and driven by the belief that it could somehow avenge 9/11. In short, you're making the same kind of racket they did, because something hasn't been done quickly enough.

Relax. Go read the Constitution, and read up on how a President is elected, which is different from how the election works.

Until the electoralcollege meets on December 13, and until the President of the Senate reads their voting results on January 6, 2005, no one has been elected President.

Got that?

Good.

Now, quit bashing Kerry. He did a great job. Remember how high everyone was on Monday night? We knew he had it won. And then it was stolen.

Keep remembering that.

It was stolen from him. From us.

he didn't,he hasn't and it looks like the only thing the repugnants
were right about was their assessment of Kerry's character.

I'm angrier and angrier.

I doubt that this is a ploy.

He quit and that's it.

A concession speech is simply a gesture.

I don't think he quit, and the reality is that I don't know what's going on. Neither do you. I'm an old lawyer, and I'd be a goddamned dumb bit of work if I were ever to let anyone know what I was planning in any given legal matter.

See?

race is over, he can't take the presidency.

There's something else suspicious. On Nov. 3 the campaign was supposed to have a conference call with all the campaign managers at 1 PM.

It was cancelled and no further word was given.

Until his concession speech. -

and you usually do let your clients know what your plans are, dont you?

Nope. I think he's gone and we're on our own...and doing a damn good job for amateurs of getting it together and getting the goods.

It would be nice if he was a part of it as is Nader and Cobb, and some others.

The usual Nadler, Wechsler, and Conyers are carrying the water.

Tell your old lawyer to go read the Constitution, and see that the election is not complete until the electors have voted. This takes place on the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December. Then, the vote count is forwarded to the President of the Senate, who opens it and announces it publicly on January 6.

Do you think the framers of the Constitution didn't foresee something like this? That's why the election's not over yet.

I'd get myself a new "old lawyer," if I were you. Concession speechs have no legal standing.'

You're acting like every indicted client I ever had. Nervous, self-involved, and convinced you need to know my every thought and every move.

No, that's not how it works. You sit there, and do whatever it is you do in your life, and I'll let you know when I'm ready. Then, and only then, do we proceed, and if you don't like what I'm doing, you're free to fire me. You will not, however, change my plan. That's how it works.

People! Can you imagine what it would take out of a person physically just to hit all these states, take all these hits and then see those numbers in the end? Yes, he's a politician but still.. Not to mention that Mrs. Edwards has just learned she has breast cancer.

It took more than 24 hours of straight sleep after the election before I could get over exhaustion and shock. It has only been 72 hours since Kerry conceded.

Didn't Gore just simply call up asswipe and say "hey I changed my mind...I don't concede."? No legal binding on concession.

And remember, Kerry is not * who immediately goes charging into everything head on and continually creates a clusterfuck. When is the last time the police caught a criminal by saying, "I think we've got the goods on you, we plan on coming by and picking you up around 8...is that convenient for you.?

able to finally get your sleep. I know I did last night and today.

his mind on this. Right now he isn't. We can speculate, and it's very likely that he or Edwards are managing something behind the scenes (certainly Edwards' "concession" speech had plenty in it to fuel such speculation).

And even if it turns out he really did just throw in the towel, hell, I hope I'll have the decency not to piss on the man. He busted his ass for two years for the betterment of all of us, and he still is working for us as a Senator.

I might think less of him, but I'll always appreciate the fight he led this year.

And if he is, and he is in fact working behind the scenes, reading messages bashing him aren't likely to encourage him. I agree, I'm going to reserve judgement until I hear for definite.

Just one word from you and this would be at top of the news.

Just a few strokes of the pen, and we have a recount of suspicious votes.

But you're nowhere to be found.

I do hope we find the votes before Bush usurps the office. Not for you, because I despise you. It's democracy that I'm defending now, and certainly not the small irrelevant man that you are.

something to let the people who busted their arses for me know that
I was still trying.

The reports are that he stopped the trying.

I'm sorry for Chris and Elizabeth. I like them tremendously. But they didn't make promises to me that they didn;t keep.

Even if he still lost, if there were ever to be a democratic election
in this country again, it would be Kerry's responsibility to challenge
all these irregularities being reported in the voting machines.

I was there. I know from my exit polls who won. To allow Bush to pretend he won honestly without the fix of the machines is disgraceful.

This is not one state. This is a bunch of problems in all states. Everything was being recorded. They have to sift through and see where it all leads and what kind of action can be taken, if any.

Carol Mosely Braun was just on with Laura Flanders....talking about the need to have a mastery of all the intricacies of the electoral process. For all we know, the Kerry people have that mastery...Perhaps they are building a case for a huge FOIA or Voting Rights Act violation action.

Bill Shaheen, Kerry's man on the ground in NH, just said they are SUING Republicans there...And he is fired up and saying we have to take them on! He just asked if Christ would want Republicans to cheat people out of voting!!

Something must be going on, we just don't know everything....I hope.

UPDATE: Carol just took the party to task for not being as up to speed on the Repug techniques for cheating, etc. She also said that in Ohio, it was unlikely that things would work out for Kerry. However--she believes we have to really press on the election problems/cheating...

I was in Manchester, New Hampshire last Sunday listening to Kerry, General Tony McPeak,Theo Epstein.. and Bill Shaheen and Jean were there, too.

I won't believe they dropped this like a hot potato!

Give him enough rope and he'll hang himself?

Let the moran blather on and on about his political capitol and his agenda. You know how many more people Bush alienated with that ramrod announcement? And this will be a nightmare weekend in the Middle East. I can just hear the idiot saying "we've got a real battle on our hands in Fallujah and Senator Kerry wants to whine about a few hanging chads. He He He"

Do you not understand that not only must Kerry fight off the Repub wolves once he makes a statement, but the media will not champion him either. They are in the fix.

So if he lays his card out immediately, they will start their machine up just as they have all year. It is better to gather the evidence. Lay in wait and pounce.

If Kerry's success was truly in a grassroot's efforts, then he realizes that, and that is how the battle to expose the fraud must be fought.

It ain't gonna happen.

I and thousands of other DUers have been "waiting" since the 2000 Election for our Dem leaders to come forward and do the right thing -- and it just never seems to happen, aside from a small handful of Congressmen who do good work, but it's all on paper (requests for investigations, etc. -- Conyers, Waxman, etc.).

We're on our own. Get that through your heads and THEN we will (finally) be in a stronger position to do what needs to be done:

It's up to us, or no one. Let them come JOIN us if the mood strikes, but in the meantime we can't afford the luxury of expecting our Dem "leaders" to lead. They ain't gonna do it. Period.

Here's an immediate start on what needs to be done:
URGENT: VOTE FRAUD? Tell everyone you know -- details
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1337662

When you say we are deluding ourselves I guess you think we are waiting ONLY for Kerry to come out and call us to action.

I'm extremely aware of what is at stake here. Username. I understand if we accept the results of this election there is no point to another election ever.

I had put aside funds and had somebody to run my business right after Nov. 3rd, and was wondering where I'd be going.

But I ended up working the neigboring swing state with the hope that we wouldn't have to be anywhere Nov. 3rd.

The info is going out as you suggested. Meanwhile, the Nov. 3rd pledge which involves millions of people is where I'll take my marching orders. It is the civil rights era all over again.

Remember how Bush went after Gore and made it a media circus. Bush can't stop the voting. People are doing things. You're just not watchng it on TV. Kerry is a very smart man and so is John Edwards, give them the benefit of the doubt. BB

for best possible outcome, expect the worst and accept whatever happens. Who knows we could be opening a new chapter in the evolving history of this democracy. I for one would love to see the meltdown of *, cheney, rove and crew when they learn all has been overturned. Wishful thinking maybe...

Well, imagine how tired John Kerry is right now. He's sixty-one years old, started his campaign just after prostate cancer treatment, and he went out and busted his balls for TWO YEARS.

Not one person here has any right to be angry with Kerry. Not one of you. He owes you nothing, and you have no right to demand anything from him. Not now.

Maybe, if nothing changes, if nothing else happens, by December 14, then, yes, you can let it rip. But, for now, you're sounding like the self-indulgent, revenge-seeking rightwingnuts who want somebody strung up as soon as there's a hint of a crime committed. Not a crime, mind you - a hint.

Let's be reasonable here, folks. Anger at Goat Boy, anger at Diebold, anger at the slender white boy "Challengers" in the black neighborhoods of Ohio cities (those boys are gonna make great bitches when they go to prison), anger at a system that lets this shit happen - all that is reasonable.

But, please, not anger at John Kerry.

I was upset when I saw that speech, but maybe we can convice him to over turn this. Bashing him will give Bush his mandate.

christ...America is screwed and so is the rest of the world....

have been punched in the gut.

But, do you have access to anything but mainstream TV corporate news? There are rumblings on alternative programs like Free Speech TV etc. But, you are not going to find this play out immediately on the corporate whore media. Not at this stage.

Oh yes, when the fight does begin, they will cover it to exhaustion, because it's good for numbers. I honestly think that's what they expected to happen in the first place. Even they are in shock.

to - I cant abide the chimp's face or voice and I dont want to hear
the gloating of the talking heads.

So, I'm not getting any disinfo except whatever I read here on DU and
what is my own opinion.

You know my own opinion.

I know what I would do if I were he.

Then again, if I had been Gore, I would have gotten on television and
told the American people to get out in the streets, that a coup d'etat was taking place by stolen votes, and I was angry at Gore for not doing so.

These people are too ingrained to cooperate with a system; a system which is broken and rotten to the core.

I hate that cocky little fucker.


Most of the people I know hate him. My mom has been walking around depressed and she's begging me to come over and show her the BBV page cause all she's getting is mainstream media. I told her to cheer up, that it isn't over, yet.

he'd be fighting. What we have to realize is that were in the minority with this. If we can help prove it was stolen, I'm certain he'll be the first to stand up.

Get real people. WE are the "lefitst loonies" right now. It doesn't mean we can't bring the issue into the mainstream but it may take time.

No.

You don't know what "fight" means, in a situation like this.

It's all in the details, and you have no idea how complicated preparing this kind of case is. But, it must be done in darkness, so to speak.

I'm a lawyer. Posit this as a hypothetical: I'm defending you on a murder rap. How good a lawyer would I be if I were to announce, as soon as you were indicted, exactly how I was going to conduct your defense?

Got it?

Now, go spread joy ...................... :)

100 percent. :toast: My thinking, exactly. I just wish people would stop assuming abandonment and also stop using Florida 2000 as a template for what should be done. Florida 2000 did not work! It was a media circus. I have to believe that that is one of the main reasons why this time everything is under the radar.

Let's face it, Rove would unleash PR h*ll if we gave him John Kerry as a direct challenger of the election results. He can't do that to Nader, Cobb, Badnarik, Congressmen, etc. But Kerry and co. can work behind the scenes to get the info. and analyze it. We have NOTHING until an analysis is done. What's the point in pointing fingers publically until then? They'd just laugh like they did with B*sh's 'badly tailored shirt' stories. We can't give them that advantage. Not at this point.

Silence, in this case, is a very good thing. We need to hammer the print media and all foreign press with our suspicions and links to the suspicious data.

I think more people are starting to figure out that Kerry's silence just might be significant.

At least we've got to give the man the benefit of the doubt. Anyone who'd follow the 2000 example would be braindead, in my example. Why on earth would I want any of those thugs and thieves to know what I'm up to? Believe me, they're nervous enough as it is. Surely, they're thinking what we're thinking, and doing everything they can to prepare.

If I'm right about Kerry, and he's going to come out with a full-blown case on his side, then the ensuing fight is going to make the campaign look like a couple of toddlers playing pattycake.

I'm sending money to good leftie organizations. That's all I can do right now.

Keep the faith, folks.....................

the election was stolen.

Time to put your actions where your words are. Oh -- and you don't usually get "proof" until after there have been investigations.

See this thread, please:

URGENT: VOTE FRAUD? Tell everyone you know -- details
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1337662

and get busy -- let's all get busy.

And btw, there are more threads all the time. Some of the links in the above thread have some VERY compelling information and analsys in them.

behind the scenes, mzmolly?

Just because it isn't being played out in our fascist media means zilch.

With all due respect..I think we should reserve our judgement of KErry until all is revealed. Which hasn't happened by a long shot.

He may be looking into things that were not aware of. :hi:

Just because we don't see him he is still fighting.

Why would he not fight for justice?

He is NOT the enemy, Bush is!

I have two theories and I believe that they are both true to a degree.

He will be in a stronger position if he weighs in after the votergate issue gains momentum. If he jumps into the fray too soon he will drag himself and his party through the mud. We can carry this fight better without him for now. He better be there when the moment is ripe!

During the Revolutionary war winter forage campaigns the militia was extremely effective. Washington recognized this and reinforced the militia with regular army troops. The party could be more helpful here.


-------
Or:
He truly believes that the cause is lost. He believes that any effort to fight this will only result more problems for the party. Let King George III hang himself and fight again in the midterm "elections."

and the problem with accepting the situation, whether it's for the
sake of the Democratic Party or the country or whatever, is that if
Bushco get away with this, they control everything. No doubt at
least some Democratic Senators will have also lost their seats due
to fraud, and we know that Bush will stack the Supreme Court as soon
as he can. So he will control it all, and nobody wil be able to
change black box voting, and if they mount a challenge, a Republican
Supreme Court isn't going to look favourably on their case.

Seems to me if Kerry and Edwards don't fight now, the Democrats may
never get another chance to fight anything.

:hi:

walking hand in hand for another four years.

It's going to be as bad for us as it will be for you.

media at work. I will say one more time to those here who need to pop a zanax and stop having the attention span of the "Fear Factor" crowd.
This is typical here in America, react first, plan later.

Our media did not let us see the real war, our media does not tell us a wall is being built in Israel. Our headlines do not look like the rest of the world's. We are kept ignorant. I lived throughout the world and have never seen such propaganda as I see here.

The media is as much to blame as the admin. for the stranglehold we are in. We didn't even see more than a couple of minutes of demonstrations at the RNC and there were a half million people there followed by days where there were 1500 various demonstrations each day that week. If you have access to Free Speech TV or networks outside the U.S. you did see this.

The fight is a given. There was a Nov. 3rd pledge signed by many people and now it is a pledge to fight this stolen election. This is with or without Kerry. That does not mean we take to the streets or the media without a serious plan. They muted them in Florida in 2000 and they muted them in Sept. in New York. Do not worry dear friend across the world, we will be fighting.

about possible fraud. In fact I'm heartily sick of hearing about
Georgie's mandate, and how at last he's really legitimate. Not even
a murmur from our left-wing journalists (who, of necessity, write
only for mainstream papers, since we don't have anything else). And
certainly no questions are being asked, although amongst people on
the street, the word is just beginning to get around that perhaps
all is not as it appears. I can only assume all their information
is coming from the Internet, as is mine.

someone points a finger at them? They find a distraction. If Kerry were to question the election himself, the republicans would make KERRY THE DISTRACTION. The voter fraud would get no air time at all. All we'd hear is that 'Kerry is trying to steal the election.' The White House controlled media would make sure of that. The only way this is going to get on the air and into print is if Kerry stays out of it. The repukes are going to be hit from many different directions and they can't create THAT many distractions. Besides, KERRY is the BIG NAME here. If we get a bunch of people from all over America doing their work to prove voter fraud, the repukes aren't going to have ONE big name to attack. They won't be able to control ALL of the media. People WILL start talking about this. They WILL start writing about this. It will hit mainstream. As long as the truth and facts are on our side, the repukes are NOT going to be able to make this one go away.

:toast:

to deal with the fascists and the fascist media!

THank you, Demt2theMax!

Never Retreat, Never Surrender ..were not empty words!

Thank you, Bruce!

OR NOT. :shrug:

It's called "hull-down defilade" and it's an ambush tactic tank and Infantry Fighting Vehicle crews do. You dig a hole big enough for the vehicle, drive the vehicle into it and bury it in leaves. When the enemy comes by, happy as hell that they're not facing any opposition, you just blow the shit out of them with your biggest gun.

Quick question for all the Kerry bashers: Has anyone seen him since the concession speech? Has anyone seen Edwards? No, and for good reason: he's in a self-propelled howitzer, in a hole, covered with leaves, with a nuclear round in the chamber, and waiting for Bush to swagger by.

For God's sake, people, Elizabeth Edwards is a posting DUer. Chris Heinz is a posting DUer. They know what we're thinking and they're undoubtedly passing it on to the campaign. They can't announce any actions here because we're covered up with freepers and Free Republic is in the Moon network.

They don't have much time, but I think we'll be okay and Bush will be fucked when the cloud dissipates.

:puke: they are posted by those that don't think these things thru logically.

that's a lot better than "oh my god! we're FUCKED!"

I'd be interested in what they have to say.

(1) denial, (2) bargaining, (3) anger, (4) despair, (5) acceptance.

perhaps i'm still in (1)

but somehow i think there could be something dramatic brewing. i've viewed the Plame investigation as a gentleman's invitation putting w on notice that he'd either have to vacate quietly, and peacefully, or face indictments. just go w. please, thank you.

that gentlemanly invite having been refused, what next? well, we're all grieving and distressed by events of all the last 4 years and last week. imagine what people feel who really have a serious stake in the outcome here -- i'm not talking about kerry so much as flag-rank admirals, corporate leaders etc. dunno.

presumed election fraud would be the cherry on top for these folk -- clearly outing the criminal nature of this neo-con group. the thought of some jacktalking boob spouting off about the "hearing the voice of the people" and "mandate" would put it over the top for those who like competence in government. bush must go. somehow he will. Remember, this is the year the BOSTON Red Sox beat the curse and came back from the dead!

hopeful, but hull-down defilade -- sounds more like rove tactics to me than the democrats . . . i.e. Nov. 2, 2004 :eyes:

I couldn't have put it better, myself. :toast: And I've tried, over and over again. **sigh** The end results will convince them. That's all that matters, really.

But I think this thread is important because it gets the points out why we had every reason to put our trust in KErry.

A lot of us haven't given up, Senator Kerry, and Senator Edwards!

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

... unless they had HARD evidence (affadavids, turncoats, witnesses to shredding, etc) there wasn't anything they could have done without being savaged in the press..

You saw Card the morning after claiming victory and turning up the heat. It was like, put up or shut up. Without hard evidence they'd have been seen as obstructionists.

I do believe this was rigged. I also think unless the Kerry camp is stupid, they should have predicted this exact situation and had a plan to deal. My hope is that there is actually something going on behind the scenes right now to get to an accurate count.

What happened to all the lawyers?

Lets give him a chance to prove whether he's a coward, or was just badly advised:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x28262

choices!

John Kerry did what he did to protect this country.

Do not underestimate him.

John Edwards said that every vote was being counted and they are.

The margin was too wide to leave this country hanging on a decision.

Investigations are happening in many areas.

Remember who John Kerry is:

He exposed Iran/Contra & BCCI!

people of this! :yourock:

Kerry has never backed down from exposing corruption in the past so there's no reason to think that's he's turned tail and is sulking in a corner now......ESPECIALLY with the future of a Democratic America at stake!

I'm beginnng to have hope again that this Election isn't a Done Deal just yet and the appropriate legal ducks/investigations/evidence are being lined up in the background!

I fight for myself -- the DNC is spineless, RNC has been taken over by the Fundies and any 3rd party is powerless.

Kerry reassured us, so many, many times that "every vote will be counted." When folks like Palast and the patriots at blackboxvoting.org dig into this story a little more he may regret having said that--much more than the unforgettable "global test" remark.

are on this..no doubt!

Fuck The Fascist Media!

The man who knows the power of standing still.

He's not about to let Andrew (Fuckface) Card dictate his actions. I like to think that Kerry's pro-active, and not re-active. He's got time.

I hope to God I'm right about this. I just have this feeling that I am.

Regardless, you have to agree that Kerry put up a great fight against filthy pricks.

And, in the end, a real victory was stolen from him.

Excuse me for sounding like a brat but I poured a lot of personal $$$ into the Kerry campaign and the least they could do for our time and money is a thorough investigation. I donated to the legal fund too! I truly hope it's just a matter of time. Is it correct that they have till Dec.12 ?

The electoral college members meet on December 13 to cast their votes, at which time the election is decided.

As a lawyer, I still find arguable grounds that the election might not be decided until January 6, when the President of the Senate makes public the results, but I think it's kind of a specious argument.

Still, if cornered, I'd give it a try.

I just happen not to believe in surrendering until my head's in the noose.

But the way he left was clear:
Kerry forces planned for a
battle that never was" (by Patrick Healy, Boston Globe, Thursday Nov.
4, The Nation section, p. A340.
It was Cahill who
shared the (not good) news..to the nominee who was working off of five
hours of sleep...And while a team of lawyers pressed to go to court on
Ohio at 8 am to challenge the state's vote-counting procedures, Cahill
said, KERRY DID NOT SEE THE POINT.

'He immediately just decided that in order to go forward in a time of
war, an election lawsuit was not something that he wanted to put the
country through' Cahill said."

(end of excerpts).


2. Mike Papantonio - lawyer on the campaign was on Ring on Fire (Air America) with Reno (black comedienne). She asked him why was he turned around from the tarmac - en route for Ohio - election night. After repeated questioning, he admitted that "certain elements in the party thought it would make us look like cry babies"

With the country surely being taken over by fraud and force, where are those who will fight to protect our liberties??? Where are those who will fight to protect freedom from tyranny???? Where is John Kerry, John Edwards, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter?????????

He probably needs to know we want to fight, he needs to know the people want it, not just him. He was running to lead us, not dictate. Get the word out, investigate, hopefully he'll come out of the woodwork.

We are rudderless - and we are fighting - don't make this somehow a kerry virtue ("he was running to lead us to dictate").
There's still time to jump on the bandwagon, John!

That's all. If months go by with nothing from him, I'll turn on him like a venomous snake. He will have betrayed us, but for now, I'm just hoping. Waiting and hoping.

"It was in the courtroom that I learned how, when you build a case, every detail matters and every bit counts. And I learned that you can never for a moment forget the big picture or the broad ambitions of justice....I came to genuinely understand how smart and decent all kinds of regular people are -- even at the worst moments in their lives. And I learned how our great system can often discount the hardships and genuine suffering of such people -- and how it can sometimes seem to forget their struggle almost completely."

Keep the ball rolling! Good job!
I think that though JK/JE are off the radar right now does not necessarily mean they have turned their back on this.

be counted" election night BS

I tried so hard to support Kerry, but in the end, it ended like I thought it would.

Kerry was the gracious conceder I predicted he would be back in March.

There is work to do. We can bitch later...