WE MUST REGAIN OUR FOCUS. CHECK IN HERE IF YOU AGREE.

Hi folks,

This is the News Editor of The Nashua Advocate. We've been covering the election reform movement for 53 days now. Democratic Underground is more active on this front than any other group we have thus far located. What that means is, you are -- we are, here at Democratic Underground -- more focused on promoting and generating real change on this issue than any group of persons in the United States.

Read that sentence again.

Because it's the literal and absolute truth.

And if you think about it, this particular board at DU, "2004 Election Results and Discussion," is the perfect venue for discussing election reform (as the need for it was so patently on display during the 2004 presidential election, particularly in Ohio).

The danger, now that Bush's inauguration has passed, is that we who support election reform so irrevocably -- with our hearts, our heads, our pens, our skills, our voices -- will lose our focus.

I am now starting to see lots of threads here about, say, the nomination of Condoleezza Rice for Secretary of State. It's certainly okay to oppose that nomination -- it so happens The Advocate does -- but that is *not* an issue connected to either the 2004 election or the urgent need for election reform which that election (along with the 2000 election) made so obvious to us all. Likewise, threads about general "progressive" issues, like whether a radio-show host respects liberals, or whether Bush is a liar (which, I think, should be self-evident, anyway), or what people thought about the inauguration/coronation simply don't move the ball on election reform.

THIS IS OUR MOMENT. WE SEIZE IT OR LOSE IT FOREVER.

Things are happening right *now* which we should be focusing on and talking about, rather than giving 100 to 200 comments on posts which may have everything to do with progressive issues but *nothing* to do with the 2004 election and/or election reform.

By mingling general "progressive" talk with talk about the 2004 general election, we're merely reinforcing the image -- to anyone who visits here and is wondering what we're about and deciding, also, whether to join in -- that our beef is not so much with the inaccuracy of the 2004 presidential election, it's with the decline of progressivism, generally. Or that it's not the specific issue of election reform which draws our blood to a boil and ushers us to a board entitled "2004 Election Results and Discussion," but rather a general angst toward conservatives.

Do most of us feel that angst? Yes.

Do we need to post messages to that effect on a board explicitly targeted at discussion of the "2004 Election Results"? I don't think so.

REPUBLICANS CANNOT STAND AGAINST A UNITED, PRO-ELECTION REFORM FRONT.

We must be that front.

(That's why -- post-criticism -- The Advocate has now warmly embraced Kerry as an ally in this fight).

Obviously, anyone can post here whatever they want. But things are *happening* right now on the election reform front which we *need* to be focusing our attention on, perhaps even to the exclusion of all else. For instance:

* prospective hearings on election reform before the House Judiciary Committee (we need letters, calls, and faxes to Sensenbrenner's office to make this happen -- especially from Wisconsin residents);

* as many as ten election reform bills in the House and Senate which members of Congress have promised to sponsor (publicly-announced sponsors include: Senators Boxer, Dodd, Kerry, Clinton, Feinstein, Chafee, Harkin; the House Members involved with these bills are too numerous to name, but are headed, obviously, by John Conyers);

* a just-released Mitofksy study which is riddled with lies and/or inaccuracies and/or false conclusions, which the media will let slide by if we don't complain to them and to local newspapers about it (witness CNN's coverage, which effectively said that the exit polls skewed to Kerry because more Kerry voters participated in the polls, an imbecilic tautology which CNN has so thoroughly and blindly embraced it will no longer report the story);

* an ongoing need to analyze old and/or produce new data from Ohio and Florida from the last election, including (if possible) conducting new county-by-county exit polls, analyzing existing pre-election and exit polls, making FOIA requests, and so on;

* making the criminal investigation of Blackwell, if or as appropriate, a top priority -- an issue which is now in the hands of the D.O.J., which means we should be militating for a Special Prosecutor *now* before it's too late.

And that's just the beginning. This board must be THE war-room for the election reform effort.

Look around you: does this look to you, right now, like the primary -- indeed, perhaps the *only* -- PRO-ELECTION REFORM WAR ROOM IN AMERICA?

And yet that's what it is.

So, let's make it look that way. Let's commit and rededicate ourselves today to the notion that THIS BOARD IS GROUND ZERO for election reform efforts.

Can I get an amen?

has a nice sound to it and you need 10 starred members to start a group. Count me in.

I guess I don't know the "star" deal.

Could you explain?

Thanks!

You get a star next to your name if you donate (or someone donates on your behalf) to DU. And that's important because...http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=206x11

if you do, you get a gold star next to your name. This entitles you to extra features on the board, one being able to vote for groups.

Sigh.

There already is a forum for Activism. If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

I don't think, personally, more forums will do the trick.

Is ON US.

...then a forum entitled "Election Reform War Room" (or somesuch) might be necessary.

-- TNE

I think that is a better idea than to break off into another forum or a group.

There already is a forum for Activism. If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

If you see a thread in this forum that does not pertain to election reform/fraud, then simply alert and have it moved to the Activism thread.

Should a new thread be started or can we submit this one?

We have all we need here and now.

We are doing it.

And these aother issues also matter. They give us a voice and confidence.

I don't find that our action on other issues detracts at all, but rather adds to our power in the fight.

Keeping the forum interesting brings in "accidental" activists, people who might not go to a war room. BTW, I'm guilty sometimes of being an "accidental" activist. I just have to be nudged on some matters. There are many like me who are limited physically as to how much they can do. This forum is interesting and gives me incentive to do more. I do not know if the war room would bring in that many people.

So, IMHO, this forum is great and its diversity attractive. We need "accidental" activists. I also believe it encourages investigation more. You know, more ears to the ground.

I think that is a better idea than to break off into another forum or a group.

There already is a forum for Activism. If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

If you see a thread in this forum that does not pertain to election reform/fraud, then simply alert and have it moved to the Activism thread.

There already is a forum for Activism. If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

I'm "guilty" of, sometimes, trying to do/think too much all at once.

Let's use the other forums available to blast the regime officials.

The fraud is HUGE and to forget that only serves the regime.

Thanks!

*BIG WET SLOPPY KISS*!!!!!

Let's get this movement started!!

I agree about keeping this particular forum focused on election issues. That is the title of the forum, after all.

in every possible way!

thanks Nashuaadvocate for redirecting, I know for me it is hard to stay focused when there are all of these threads aobut tdifferent things going on. We definately need to get this ball rolling, we need some organization to this as well.

There already is a forum for Activism. If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

:bounce:

:evilgrin:

:thumbsdown:

I've been around one too many people in my life who constantly said "focus people".

I think this needs an aerosol approach.

Besides, it can't be put back in the tube to be squeezed-out in the right direction by a focus group. This really is a deservedly grass-roots effort.

typo fixed

Is it ok for Wally ODell,CEO of Diebold to hand deliver a check for$120,000 to AWOL at Crawford.Then say I will do what ever it takes to deliver Ohios Electoral votes to Schrub.

...about which we can all be proud, and where we realize we're on notice that it's up to us to change the country.

Can you say which kinds of topics did you think reduce the focus?

Were you speaking about all the 'Dem politician bash' threads? Or the 'exit poll debunk' threads? Or the 'prove it again to me' threads? Or the 'so-and-so is a dick' threads?

I believe most of the Rice hearing-related threads here had to do with how Boxer and Kerry conducted their questioning. They are the two Senators most closely associated with Election Reform (Boxer objected, Kerry was defrauded). So I don't see the problem.

These are two politicians whose actions we should hilight and discuss, if only in order to further this board's purposes, to grow awareness and support for their election-relation efforts.

I agree completely with the premise that this board is the very nexus of the online effort. I agree that those who are participating here are making a fundamental contribution.

I guess I don't understand what Progressive ideas you think are defocusing that effort. Right-wing-style trying to narrow the forum into 'groupthink' should be frowned upon. I know that's not what you're proposing. Can you help me understand?

...and I can tell you, my aim was not to criticze specific persons *because*, frankly, even those threads which seem to me to be "off-topic" are *nevertheless* important discussions...just not, perhaps, for this particular board. (Again, doesn't mean people can't post whatever they want; this is just my opinion).

I hate to single out -- any more than I have -- specific threads, because it's really not my aim to suggest that anyone here is doing something "wrong," or is somehow hurting the election reform effort, or whatever. Frankly, anyone who's here has their heart in the right place, as far as I'm concerned. Even when The Advocate slammed Kerry and people were upset we'd taken that approach, I think folks appreciated that we were still "on-topic." Which goes to show you, it's not about everyone *agreeing* on things, it's about us all being involved -- as it were -- in the same general *discussion*.

That is, a discussion about election reform.

So, if we want to talk about the media, the presumption is that we want to talk about how the media is or is not covering the election reform issue (with its attendant issues, like election fraud, election irregularities, general "election-related" talk regarding the 2004 election, and so on).

If we want to talk about Bush, the presumption is that we want to talk about something Bush or his agents have or have not done which somehow sheds like on what happened in Election 2004, or what's going to happen with regard to election reform going forward.

If we want to talk about other figures, such as Kerry or Blackwell, the presumption is that -- whatever we think or say about them -- the general "discussion" we're having is on how these people are engaging in (or not engaging in) actions which directly relate to the election reform movement, or damage their credibility with regard to that movement, and so on.

I think if you look back at some of the recent threads -- particularly post-January 6th -- you can see a perceptible slackening of focus where election reform discussion is concerned. I had and have assumed that some of that is people's assumption that the issue has cooled off -- but it *hasn't*. The iron's still hot, and while people could well be forgiven for thinking the flurry of activity nationally on election reform has past, one point of my post is to note that, again, it *hasn't*.

And amen to that!

-- TNE

I think is clear, but, is there any area thay you think could be/should be dealt with elsewhere?

Suggestions are always good!

pointing this out so eloquently. I guess we just needed to grieve; this inauguration is something we never expected to see and it has sickened so many of us. You're right, though, we need to shake off the depression and get back to work.

(I.E.Blackwell's letter soliciting corporate donations for his gov campaign, which adds fuel to the case against his corrupt dealings around the entire pre-, during, and post-Ohio election),it would be relevant.

You are 100% right. People who are on this board complaining about how bad things are but not doing anything about it need to get active. There are many things that can be done at the local level to help this cause. For instance, in my state, CT, there is an RFP to purchase electronic DRE voting systems. I have joined a state group that is doing everything possible to stop this, from educating the public and politicians to promoting bills that would require optical scan machines and ban DREs. We do need to regain our focus and do everything we can to enact election reform or things will just get worse.

info I saw here and it's hard to find all the relevant info with so many threads. There is so much good info that kind of gets buried.
Some of it is entertaining but more kind of ....gossipy? and I can get distracted by that.

part of the "problem" is that 2004 Election Results and Discussion seems to be a coherent subcommunity of DU. That is, we recognize the names and personalities around here, and would like to discuss other things sometimes, but within THIS subcommunity of DU.

At least that's how it seems to this newbie, but long time lurker. For example, I didn't know where else to turn for commentary about the Rice hearings and the innauguration. Besides, of course truthout.org/fyi. I love wrp's commentary, but one person can only do so much!

So, is it possible to have subforums? How should we talk to one another about marginally relevant topics without diluting the forum?

other issues than election related: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/
general discussion
and
general discussion politics

I was just htinking about this last night. I think we DO need a new forum, mainly because there is a lot of talk in this forum about whether or not fraud even occurred, or potentially good threads that degenerate into a debate about whether or not Kerry is a chump in relation to the Election Fraud issue.

These are perfectly valid conversations in this forum, but they distract us from focusing on facts, research, and activism.

I believe we DO need a dedicated forum where it is a GIVEN that fraud occurred. Where evidence can be compiled, analyzed and scrutinized. Where discussion of media coverage of Election Fraud can occur. Where plans of action can be developed for media blasting, contacting our politicians, rallies, and other forms of action and activism.

In fact, the above paragraph could be tweaked out to form the mission statement.

NAME: ELECTION FRAUD ACTION GROUP

What do you all think? Ideas?

:toast:

I really think we DO need a seperate group for a few reasons. I understand the desire to focus THIS forum, but the problem is that whenever we try, a lot people react by implying we are trying to squash dissent here. And while that is frustrating to those of us who WANT to focus on the action and not the debate, those people are ultimately right. This is a big, public board, and lots of things fall into the category of this forum. We shouldn't try to stifle discussions that other people find important jsut because we are prioritizing differently. This forum would continue to exist, and there will probably be an overlap.

THe benefit of starting a Group for this is that we can put in the mission staement that it is assumed that fraud occurred, and topics must pertain to the ongoing effort to expose & remedy fraud. If the mission statement is written properly, then debates about whether or not fraud occurred wouldn't happen. THey can still happen here, and threads about Condi and the inauguration and other election result related stuff would still happen here. But the new group would be FOCUSED.

DU is huge, that is why they started the groups - so people could focus.

I say let's do it.

...I would just note that, when it comes down to it, what the election reform movement needs is simply people who believe in and are willing to work for election reform. Whatever they may believe about the "why" or "how" or "what happened in Ohio," it seems to me that if people want to discuss election reform -- in any of its hundreds of permutations, with any of its hundreds of justifications -- that's a good thing. Right?

-- TNE

But I think DU is too big for this particular forum to focus enough. See the thread I started - please weigh in there.

:hi:

Thanks!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x298456

ongoing investigations, and people who want to debate about whether fraud occurred can do that here and not there, becasue the new forum whould be for those who are active and doing something rather than wanting to debate?

The debates don't get us anywhere and distract from the work that needs to be done.

The Rice confirmation needs to be addressed. It can be addressed in the Activism forum, however, and not in this forum.

We can't let other items slip while we are working on election reform/fraud.

We just need to get the election reform/fraud stuff focused in here and redirect other action threads to the Activism forum.

It will work perfectly as soon as this forum gets renamed. :)

too. How about election fraud and reform action group?

Thank you for posting your message, NA, and thanks for doing your part!

It is extremely important that we apply constant and supportive pressure to our Senators and Representatives to let them know how we feel.

It has been stated that Ms. Boxer felt the combined support of us DUers that helped her to not only contest the election but to grill Rice.

Ladies and gentlemen, I believe that leaders - our leaders - will fight even harder knowing that we are behind them.

I also feel that we must write our letters, etc on all issues, such as Social Security and most importantly - getting out of Iraq.

I'm in....

Splintering off will lose people, encourage burnout, and be a distraction. We have been effective acting here in the past, and we will continue to be so.

I also do not think our attention ot other issues detracts in the least from our stance on voting issues, which I agree are far and wide the most important.

In any case, I am staying right here. If anyone wants me to write any letters, please post it here. I do not like going off to hunt in other forums.

I think that is a better idea than to break off into another forum or a group.

There already is a forum for Activism. If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

If you see a thread in this forum that does not pertain to election reform/fraud, then simply alert and have it moved to the Activism thread.

This is the only forum which I am able to try and keep up with, primarily because DU is a very busy place, and there are not enough hours in the day to read everything, (and have a real life).

I would very much appreciate a more focused area of discussion, because I see no other issue before the American Public more important than election reform.

Otherwise, it is taxation without representation, and I can't live with that.

I'm in. Check your pm.

disinfo and naysayers, unconvinced and skeptical - these individuals HELP reinforce our truth, and our strength.

Isolating discussion among only those already convinced is what RIGHT WING people do. Not Progressives.

Although the goal, and those saying 'yes' are well-intentioned, it would have a decidedly negative effect, for the reasons I have posted above and others.

This is a unique resource on the Internet, and splitting the community by ideology (those who believe in Fraud, those who don't) is against the core Progressive identity.

Never mind the fact that it hurts the cause of Election Reform to stifle those who would naysay or come seeking proof... it is those individuals who prompt us to check our facts, and who may bring new pieces of the puzzle.

just for a start... I think we need to get our blasters and letters of the week as stickies in here...

:)

There already is a forum for Activism. If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

If you see a thread in this forum that does not pertain to election reform/fraud, then simply alert and have it moved to the Activism thread.

being taken seriously.

There already is a forum for Activism. If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

If you see a thread in this forum that does not pertain to election reform/fraud, then simply alert and have it moved to the Activism thread.

I think this particular forum has an energy of its own - and if you believe election reform is THE issue to pursue, we shouldn't mess with it. This IS THE ELECTION RESULTS AND DISCUSSION forum. What I'm seeing is that we ARE all starting to re-focus - and I love it! We are a powerful group who are starting to see results. Let's not splinter that by trying to move it.

Personally I've started reading the HAVA so that I know what's required to happen and how that plays a part in moving election reform forward.

Let's do it!

There is a vitality on this forum that I feel would disappear if splintered. I go here now more than GD because it is already focused. As stated above, dissent brings out facts and sometimes adds greatly to what we do. Even if I refrain from some of the threads, I know what is being discussed. Vitality, IMHO, is more important in keeping this issue alive. I don't want us to be divided. I won't repeat the well known phrase here. All of you, just say it to yourselves.

(Now, sing with me)

I SHALL NOT BE, I SHALL NOT BE MOVED
I SHALL NOT BE, I SHALL NOT BE MOVED
JUST LIKE A TREE, THAT'S PLANTED BY THE WATERS
I SHALL NOT BE MOVED

(If I got these words wrong, feel free to correct.)

good support from DU. Maybe a specific daily thread "today's reform action" or something to that effect to organize and communicate what
are the priority needs for the day?

Now that some of the immediate focus on trying to prevent the coronation of Bush has passed, we need to both look forward to how to contain and/or impeach the imposter, and also take the time to place this usurpation in context.

I don't ask that others share my view that we in America have been exposed to proto-facism since the execution of JFK, or Iran-Contra, or even the 2000 election theft.

But at the very least, we need to understand the dynamic of Bush's first term, and how he was able to consolidate so much power so rapidly, and with so little native intelligence or experience.

The key to this power grab, and the the key to his remaining in power, is obvious: it is 9/11.

Along these lines, some of us have been so preoccupied with the 2004 election and the aftermath that we have missed the possibility that researchers have finally found the key to understanding how the 9/11 attacks were able to proceed at will.

If you download the chapter from Mike Ruppert's book "Crossing the Rubicon" (go to the link below, and select "Excerpt"), it becomes crystal clear: up to 5 "wargames" were in process on the morning of 9/11, which included "injects" into FAA screens that simulated hijacked airliners. This created paralysis from the FAA and NORAD in responding to the "real" hijackings, allowing the attacks to succeed, and ushering in the reign of George Walker Bushitler, which has continue to the present day, and has led to his second coronation.

It's all in front of us, if we only have the courage to see it. If the people on DU turn some of their attention to this area, and apply just a portion of the energy and collective investigative power to this issue, it could make a tremendous difference. This CAN bring Bush down in an INSTANT.

http://www.newsociety.com/bookid/3875

P.S. 1: In case this material sounds like (really) crazy conspiracy stuff, be refer to to the excerpt from the link below...I expect that Mr. Spitzer's office might just be responsive to DU'ers (esp. NY residents) with regard to the convening of a Grand Jury....

http://www.justicefor911.org/press.php#2

On behalf of New York State Attorney General Eliot Spitzer, Chief Investigator William Casey today accepted a Complaint and Petition from a group of New York City citizens including 9/11 family members, survivors and a Ground Zero triage physician. The Complaint demands that the AG open a criminal inquiry and/or grand jury investigation into the many still unsolved crimes of September 11, 2001 over which he has jurisdiction.

P.S. 2: It may be advisable to start a DU Discussion Forum entitled "Bring Bush Down", which can focus on how to contain and/or impeach Bush for any and all reasons, not necessarily confined to election fraud. If such a step is taken, it is hoped that many of those who have kept the heat on in this forum can lend their skills and energies to the new venue. On the other hand, some may think it preferable that those who are so motivated directly take part in existing groups, such as 9/11 Truth, etc.

You could fill several forums with the issues that justify sending * back to the ranch. Try the debts for the next generation, Iraq, security failures, the environment, women's rights, gay rights, corporate "responsibility" (an oxymoron if I ever saw one)...

I'd rather see this forum stick to election issues (access and transparency).

What you say about 9/11 is important. I think that could justify its own forum, unless there is another good board covering that already.

I took a look at what forums already exist and noticed that there's one for 'Homeland Security'. There's no specific one for 9/11, maybe there should be.

But I notice that some of the existing forums don't get nearly as many posts as this one (meaning the 2004 Election Results forum).

Thats what I think is need for activism. I strongly feel that there should
be one spot to come for activism on election reform. I think people here
on this forum and else where are hungry to put in effort. Every day I come
back to this forum and read up on what has happened since I've been
gone. I'm always keep on eye out for something I can do.

Starting another forum might be helpful but I have a few issues with
it being effective for on going activism. Threads can be organized daily
like they are right now to keep track of daily news. Thing is though
people don't read this forum daily and threads sink in the mass amount
of information here. Plus not all people looking to help read this
forum.

I'm not trying to suggest that my idea of a website would be meant to
eclipse the election reform forums. By no way do I suggest that. I'm
suggesting it as a one stop place for daily election reform activism
ToDo's.

As The Nashua Advocate suggested there are some issues that need
to be keep in the spot light! The website I'm imaging would have current
and past duties people can do. For instance he brought up

"* prospective hearings on election reform before the House Judiciary
Committee (we need letters, calls, and faxes to Sensenbrenner's office
to make this happen -- especially from Wisconsin residents);"

For example the website would have an entry for this issue along with
contact information for Sensenbrenners office along with a link to more
details on the hearing.

For this to happen I think we need someone to spear head this
project.

1. Someone needs to host/provide space for the ongoing ToDo list of activism
2. Someone needs to design a simple site around election activism
3. People to add current to-do items to the list

I think this we will generate more steam to push election reform.
Any topic that people should speak out about will be listed on this
website. Bad press articles and contact info to write the writers with
complaints. Support for house reps, senator's in up coming issues.
Petitions people can sign. Etc.

Anyone want to take on this?
I'm willing contribute a small donation to help with costs.

COUNTED!!!! and guess who I voted for..my husband's didn't get counted either...we both voted for Kerry. I haven't seen the list yet...the Board of Elections know whose votes were lost, but my husband nor myself have yet to be contacted in any official capacity. I would be interested to see whose votes were lost...which Dems...and which repukes(some told me they were voting for Kerry). In Carteret County, unfortunately, we lean repuke on the national level..Dem on the state and sometimes local level but not this time locally. We have an infamous repuke county commissioner's board. :puke:

Anyway, I want my vote to be counted regardless of the freaking outcome...period...I am with you!

My view of the stolen election of 2004 is simple but sometimes the simplest things are the hardest for some people to comprehend so when you have to really explain it you need props...evidence...which we just can't seem to locate the "concrete in your face evidence of fraud" it takes to convince some people...

Nevertheless, my opinion is yes, the election was stolen in Florida in 2000, but it was stolen all over the country this time....instead of thousands and thousands and thousands of voters in one state...a very large media event at the time I might add...this time it is only a few thousand..not worth covering events....a couple thousand here...a few thousand there.....GOD knows how many lost votes there really are out there...we really didn't get much media coverage or attention here. Don't get me wrong, we got our 30 second clip on CNN a few times for a few days and that was it.

Now, it has turned conveniently into a state level issue and is simply going to disappear off the radar screen. How many other places did this happen....scattered conveniently all over the country is the smallest of no where towns where but where the political engine is strong, deep and apparently secret, damned if I know who they are but I think alot of people would be surprised by who the national level repukes supporters are when it comes to little ol' local level party boss hogs.

... will a "sure" do?

have nothing to do with election issues. People get close and want to hang out with the same group...but I only have energy for so much and want to make my primary focus election reform (and fraud investigation, etc. because certainly that is a part of reform-anything we can do to expose fraud and suppression, etc. will only serve to advance the cause for reform). So many great election related threads get buried because there are SO MANY threads in here. I would love to see this forum stay with election related issues.

Now that Jan. 20 has come and gone, a lot of things that were still related to this election such as the protests and all the inauguration activities will be a thing of the past, so that will eliminate some topics.

I suppose if you want to get picky, you could name it Election reform and fraud investigation or some such thing. But it works fine as it is if people refocus on elections. There are plenty of other forums for people to post topics on other progressive issues.

AMEN, nashuaadvocate! Thank you so much.

There already is a forum for Activism. If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

If you see a thread in this forum that does not pertain to election reform/fraud, then simply alert and have it moved to the Activism thread.

"...you could name it Election reform and fraud investigation or some such thing. But it works fine as it is if people refocus on elections. There are plenty of other forums for people to post topics on other progressive issues."

Now, can you explain this that you wrote:
"If you see a thread in this forum that does not pertain to election reform/fraud, then simply alert and have it moved to the Activism thread."

Do you mean alert and ask the mods do that? Won't they get tired of moving threads? I didn't know you could do this??

And there are many threads that would not fit in the activism forum but would be more relevant in general discussion; threads discussing Condi, for example, that don't call for any action.

The mods can move threads - they do it all of the time. The thing that will cut down on threads being put in the wrong spot will be:

1) renaming of this thread to reflect that it is focused on election reform and election fraude

2) promotion of the Activism & Events forum by all DUers and hopefully the admins

Any other threads should go in other forums, like General Discussion and GD: P.

We can get this working in no time at all!

requests but after a while, people will start posting in the right forums and the number of alerts will go down.

I agree that lately this board includes people who are vitally
interested in Election 2004 discussing other topics; and sometimes
I'm guilty. When I first arrived there were mostly nice juicy
posts of statistical analysis, and we've been through many phases
(and whatever happened to Katrina? That was one dark phase during
which a recount worker seemed to be getting run off the road in Ohio by
vehicles from Maryland, if we can believe it). But the 2 most
important goals for this forum are still to unearth exactly what
happened in Ohio and elsewhere in Election 2004, and to make it
very difficult for what we think happened to happen again!

(complements of Chili's Thankyoupatriot.com)

i dont know who or how to go about it, but there are a handful of people nationwide where we have evidence they broke law. blackwell, a christian group out of az and involved in nevada, and possibly new mexico. we can go after them now. that will start a whole other ball rolling. maybe get some info once people see they are actually going to have to pay a repercussion for their criminal acts.

and all the rest of your post i agree. we cannot let this just go away.

did my heart good to see it so displayed for people to see. i also like the idea of posting stickers "bush stole 2004" around town. start getting people to hear this, have it in their conscious anyway, especially as bush continues to f* up

Add the rest?

That we at DU dedicate ourselves to growing this war room far, far beyond so that we clone ourselves across the blogosphere.

I totally agree with you to a point. That being I agree we need to adjust our focus to what it needs to be after an extremely painful loss in November. However until certain issues such as how much Bush was helped in his victory by unlawful and unfair manipulation of vote count in electronic voting.
Surely everyone remembers the manufacturer of the most widely used e-voting machine who's name escapes me at the moment, publicly announced it was committed to providing Bush with a victory.Not that they were going to support Bush in general but to "provide" or "deliver" him a victory.
The point is if Bush or any other conservative group has had and may continue to have such control over election outcomes, I don't fully see where adjusting our focus or anything else in support of the democratic party is going to make much difference. I truly hope this matter can be addressed and gotten past but until it is I for one just don't see the point. All you have to do is ask yourself would Bush accept a victory given to him unfairly or unlawfully and I think everyone knows the answer to that question.

I don't accept the outcome, since is ilegitimate. "Election reform" sounds like apples and oranges and giving up the field, once again.

Thanks for the comments.

GOING TO ALL PAPER BALLOTS, STRICTLY HAND COUNTED, WITH TRANSPARENT OVERSIGHT, AND MANY OBSERVERS. PERIOD!!!!!

IT WON'T MATTER A DAMN IF WE HAVE OUR OWN EXIT POLLING WHEN WE GET THE SAME RESULT IN '06.

HOW F-ING LONG BEFORE EVERYONE REALIZES THIS? HOW MANY ELECTIONS DO WE HAVE TO LOSE????? WE'VE ALREADY LOST THREE IN A ROW - WILL FOUR BE ENOUGH TO GET OUR ENERGY FOCUSED ON THE FACT THAT E-VOTING JUST MAKES FRAUD THAT MUCH EASIER ON A LARGER SCALE??????

THE MORE TIME GOES BY IS JUST GIVING THEM MORE TIME TO PERSUADE THE MASSES THAT IT WASN'T STOLEN, AND PEOPLE REALLY ARE ALL BORN AGAIN FUNDIES - LOOK WHAT THEY TRIED THIS TIME WITH THEIR BOGUS MORALITY POLLING!!!!

THIS NEEDS TO BE PRIORITY ONE. AND YOU'LL KNOW YOU'VE HIT PAY-DIRT WHEN THE LOT OF THEM FIGHT YOU ON THIS EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.

WAKE THE F-K UP!!!!!!

In this article http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=567 Representative Conyers tell us that it is Chairman Sensenbrenner that attention should be focused on. Read this quote from the article:

"Conyers: I don't expect them to fully support it. All I have to do is persuade chairman Sensenbrenner that it is in all of our best interests and that he support it because he can unilaterally grant the hearings."

Ok, let's pause at this point and expand the picture to get a broader view of the landscape. This will help with the context in which Conyers makes the above statement.

For four years the neoCons have held a death grip, so to speak, on the MSM. Most can agree upon that. Some believe that this hold has been due to some short sightedness on the part of the MSM and nothing more.

It is said that fewer than 50 people control all of the MSM in the U.S. This is done through cross pollinated boards of directors. This small group of people dictate what does and does not reach the print, radio, and television. If the above is true then what portion of the administrations actions are they not aware of? If the above is true then not only are they aware of the actions but have consciously withheld information from the "consuming" public. If these things are fact, and I'm not saying they are, then how can information sent to the MSM educate them on what they already know?

Next lets delve into power; who has it now and do they know how to use it? Well, base upon the visible cracks in the now recognized MSM "blindness" veil, and how those cracks came about, the obvious answer would be the "people". How, in the briefest space possible, can this be proven? One could say Boxers statements were proof. One could also say the MSM talking heads statements at the inauguration - referencing the two separate crowds size and visible disapproval of the inaugurie. Also, there was the matter of the election contest. All of these "break throughs" came about through the direct action of the "people". So that's a strong indicator that the power now rests with the people.

If the power does indeed rest with the people, wouldn't that indicate a rapid shift and explain some of the remarks and actions from those that used to have it?

Looking once again at the media. Why would you want to educate someone that has proven to not work in your best interest? If you do have the power wouldn't you want to exercise it in a way that brings those things that you want, and like, back into some order that you can recognize?

Think of it like this - let's say you've got an unruly child. The child is constantly acting up. You've got a couple of options, you can a) let the child continue with the unruly behavior (b) punish the child thus forcing him/her to understand that your not pleased with the action and your correction, in the end, alters the behavior.

But how you may ask, can you punish the MSM yet still get your message out? Well change the focus of your approach to them. You could stop speaking to them (no editorials). Cancel subscriptions. Send them a final message that you no longer watch their channel until they do X. And this will force them to get their information from the true target that you're after. Which we'll get to in just a moment.

Now comes the issue of "how to wield power". There are a ton of good ideas going around right now. What to do. How to do "it". Who to contact. So forth and so on. What quite a few have neglected in the rush of new strength, is figure out timelines. In other words - what do you want done and how soon do you want it to happen?

Let's say you want 3 things (just examples): 1 - environment 2 - economy 3 - * out of office. 3 good things in the minds of most. Well first you should figure out which you want first, so we'll organize them from "need done right now" to "ASAP". So we'll say that #3 is "need done right now". Fine. How do you use the power you've got to do that? Do you send letters to the MSM? Do you drive to the local union hall and have a meeting? Or do you figure out who in the structure that he's (*) in that holds the keys to unseating him? I think it's that last one, you be the judge. So if this is the case that should be the target of focus, right?

After a long journey we finally get back to the Conyers interview. Conyers mentions Sensenbrenner by name twice and once as chairman of the committee in the article. Conyers states that he's sending the chairman a letter requesting full committee hearings on the Ohio matter. Well what's so important about Ohio? (Sure, I know this is a stupid question) In the Judiciary committee the Ohio matter is the first step toward impeachment, if you didn't know. The Ohio matter is being held up by very weak players (i.e. Ken Blackwell) that have direct connections to *. If the Judiciary committee breaks through in Ohio that is a very short path to the steps of the White House. And a few guys whose names I won't mention here getting new suites, color orange, evicted with new fashion accessories.

Sure, the filibuster of 2 * appointees is great! More noise = more MSM coverage. But remember how it's breaking through on them. It's not coming from you, it's coming from the "top" down on them and they have to "report" it. So change the game. Come from the top down all the time. Go around them, hit the people they "have" to cover and then they'll have to publish the facts.

Sorry about that - The issue is focus the attack on the "weakest link". If Conyers is writing a letter to Sensenbrenner requesting hearings on Ohio, why not you? Mind you this doesn't mean stop sending letters to (insert name of kick ass progressive) but learn to focus on that point that helps you achieve the end you need done "now"! If you send that "focal point" the same letter week in and week out, what's the big deal? As long as the message is received loud and clear is the issue.

Before concluding this post I'd like to point out something that a few might not know. You've heard politicians say quite a bit about polls? Well polls are the only way, for the past 2 decades, that politicians have had to gage public interest or reaction toward the actions they might take. One of the reasons this is the case is the death of the party "machines" in the late 70's early 80's. The city block, district, city, county, state, political machines that once ran politics in the USA all but disappeared in that time. The replacement was commercials and NPO's that did / do...what? Most don't know. What you're doing now is recapturing the power aspect that the machine once exercised and you're doing it directly, sans intermediary. Only thing you've got to learn is how to focus, and once you do you'll be amazed how fast the things you want to happen, happen.

or doing away with e-voting? Or are they only asking for paper trails for the machines? Paper trails are obviously not enough, we need much more reform than that. Does anyone know the specifics of the Bills they are going to consider?

BTW, staying focused is great advice,count me in !!

E.g., "2004 Election Results and Reform" or just "Election Results and Reform." Same URL, same (but refocused) posts, same archives, etc. Just tweak the title a little.

This is what I've been looking to say for a while, we have some real great ideas and issues but we're quickly turning into a "Hey, me first" group. Democracy first, the rest is secondary. If we don't have the right to our vote then we don't have any rights! Blackwell and Sensenbrenner are the Republican weak points, Conyers is our strong man! Let us support them!

I'm not sure how often - maybe once or twice a week, just to make sure no one has missed an action they could have added to?

It's definitely the #1 issue, because without election fraud reform, we will have no say about anything else.

We definitely need to stay focused, although I do think we also need to lend our support to things like Rice's confirmation, and can do both. I know if Boxer or Kerry asks me to help, I'm going to do it, and pass it on.

I think I'll just give this a kick for now, and see what people have to say.

:kick:

You've got it 100%, if we allow our energy to get divided up among the plethora of activity areas that we all represent we can't present a united front for saving our voting rights!

Lots of us have tried to create a structure for this work. Here's a simple one that might help with focus.

When we start threads here, let's try to do it in one of five categories:

A = Accuracy in Media

B = Blackwell's prosecution

C = Congressional bills

D = Data analysis

E = Exterminating E-voting.

And we can use the letter in the Subj line to make it easy for respondants.

To do this, we don't need a website or an org board or a bank account! Peace Patriot's Letter project posts would be As. TIA's work would be Ds. And it would be easy to keep track of what people are up to in this way. Whaddya think?

Check this thread out"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=28686#28710

The ONLY way ELECTION REFORM can STAY an issue is if we continue to help our party leaders attempts to block these nominations. They won't succeed in blocking them, but EVERY time they vote NO, they FORCE the Republicans to DEBATE! This is FREE publicity folks! Eventually, all this free publicity pays off. It will FORCE the Republicans to try and CYA by answering the call of "We the People."

It is a HUGE mistake to NOT take advantage of the frustrations of the Republican party!

and let a criminal run loose. Crimes have been committed by this administration and we should not rest until the guilty are brought to justice no matter how long it takes. If we move on and just forget it then, in my opinion, we might as well open up all the prisons and let everyone out. Why should they be held accountable if we have two sets up laws - one for the priviledged and another for the rest of us.

This way we get to keep the group together, but the focus of the forum is more defined.

I would not shoot down occasional off-topic threads either, because we still want to keep everyone's attention on this forum.

Like others have mentioned, I simply don't have the time to be involved in other forums, and this is where my heart is. I can't stop thinking about the fraud.

The Activism forum is underused, IMHO, and is a GREAT place for action items that are not election reform/fraud related, like the Rice confirmation.

If we can redirect the threads that call for action on things other than election reform, such as the Rice confirmation, then there is no need to start another forum.

We simply rename this one, which is what Skinner is considering doing, according to meganmonkey.

Meganmonkey has already asked for this board to be renamed to indicate that this is for election reform/fraud.

The activism forum can be used for other equally worthy endeavors.

If you see a thread in this forum that does not pertain to election reform/fraud, then simply alert and have it moved to the Activism thread.

do it. I didn't know you could.So that would include all the impeach Bush threads, etc?

Skinner replied to meganmonkey that he was thinking of getting rid of the voting issues forum and just dumping them all in here.

So, yes, the "impeach * now" or other threads that require activism on our parts but do not involve election reform/fraud should be alerted on so the mods can move them.

Remember, the reason people post stuff like that in this forum (2004 ER&D) is because this forum is full of people who want to work and do and move and shake.

So, splitting this forum up would be shooting ourselves in the foot.

We just need to redirect the threads. :)

I only found this board after the election, but I have been here every day since.

When fraud is proven and those responsible held accountable, it will be because of THIS BOARD!

We need to continue to build a following of all of the different groups and organizations that support this effort and bring them on board so that we will have as much power of the people as we can muster. WE WILL WIN IN NUMBERS!!!! We must get this message out to everyone!!!

for all that you are doing on this subject.

I just can't let it go. I fantasize about putting all the pieces together and blowing BushCo out of the water. I really want this guy.

As long as they are collectively setting goals and making a systematic collective effort to carry them out.

Here's my focus:

Widespread systematic vote machine fraud, and dirty tricks and suppression of minority registration and voting in 15 states in 2004 Election: summary of some of the documentation

http://www.flcv.com/ussumall.html

that the criminals who stole the election will have their asses served on a plate by Independence Day 2005. Right next to the watermelon!

Okay it's not quite as spiritual as MLK, but hey, it's been a rough couple of months.

It would be a great idea to keep this forum more focused on election issues - reform, fraud, suppression, warts and all - but I agree that I would really miss the other conversations that come about. I'm starting to get to know you all a bit better by name now and really feel a sense of comraderie here. Rename it whatever you like.

Perhaps, we can post our own special rules on this board where posters need to identify the intention of the post. For instance, ACTIVISM ALERT: SIGN BOXER'S PETITION TO HOLD CONDI ACCOUNTABLE, See Activism & Events. We would then know to go to the Activism and Events page. The thing I don't like about the A & E page is that it's hidden within the Politics and Issues folder and not as prominent as I think it should be. But the nice thing is that it would engage and bring in some different folks that may not come into the 2004 Election forum. If it's an activism alert having to do with the election issues keep it here.

Does anyone here wonder if folks in the General Discussion or General Discussion/Politics forum ever come to this one? I'm wondering if we could do a little more reaching out on the issues. I suppose if we ever get too off topic here we can do as Arhheim suggests and just ask the moderator to move it, though I do miss those Olberman ladies!

Point well taken. Amen.

We were falling down on our job, losing focus a bit.

Agreed, things need to be done NOW...not 4 years down the line.

While voter suppression is a problem, the real focus must remain the electronic voting machines, ESS, Diebold, etc.

I am afraid that Conyers investigation is focusing too heavily on the long lines and voter suppression. If we don't take care of the electronic voting and counting problem, we might as well not have an election in 08.

. . . but both are very important for us to work on.

I like to think Conyers knows what he is doing from his end.

Sorry for the long post--and for re-posting from another thread on this subject--but I really need to make these points here.

Check out the bottom paragraph of this letter, marked with ****:

ACTION! LETTER OF THE WEEK #2: To Senators & media on Condoleeza Rice

Dear Senator ____:

The war in Iraq is by far the worst and most disastrous mistake that the Bush regime has made, and Condoleeeza Rice, whom George Bush has nominated for Secretary of State, has been responsible for conveying the false justifications for this war to the American people and to the Congress.

We need a Secretary of State whose word we can trust, and who can be trusted by other countries. Condoleeza Rice does not meet that job description.

I oppose her appointment as Secretary of State, and I support the efforts of Senators Barbara Boxer and John Kerry to obtain answers from her on the matter of misleading America into war. I support their votes against her appointment, and I urge you to do the same in the full Senate.

Thousands of Americans have been killed and wounded, over 100,000 Iraqis have been killed and many have been imprisoned and tortured, in this war—a war based on falsehoods, and a war that also holds grave consequences for America's reputation as a just and conservative country for whom the use of a force is a last resort.

The administration is now stuck in a quagmire in Iraq, similar to the one in Vietnam in which over 50,000 US soldiers and over one million Vietnamese were killed—and now the regime is spoiling for war in additional countries.

Nearly 60% of the American people oppose the Bush Regime's war in Iraq. The American people cannot continue to pay for these reckless and bloody policies, and we can no longer tolerate war crimes being committed in our name.

Ms. Rice has also been less than candid about the failures of this administration to protect the U.S. from the 9/11 attack, and supports policies of completely unethical interference in the internal affairs of other countries, such as Haiti and Venezuela.

****A regime that holds power on the tenuous grounds of massive vote suppression against minority voters in violation of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, on the further tenuous grounds of a non-transparent election system that is controlled by partisans of the regime, and that currently has almost 60% of the American people opposing its war policy, would be well advised not to commit further arrogant acts against the consent of the governed, such as nominating for Secretary of State a person whose lies have resulted in countless unnecessary deaths.****

Sincerely,
--------------

ACTION tools at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=106&topic_id=14400#14426
-------------

You see my point! I think we have to keep tying ELECTION FRAUD to what's happening. These arrogant SOB's wouldn't be doing what they're doing if they didn't feel IMMUNE from "consent of the governed."

The LETTER OF THE WEEK will continue to do this--to tie issues such as Rice nomination (liar, warmonger) to Election Fraud and BushCon illegitimacy. It's not just about Condoleeza Rice, it's about NO MANDATE, not even a little one (NOT elected!).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=298456&mesg_id=298456

-----

Also see my post at: "#14 Election Fraud is an octopus with long arms...," on the reasons for bolstering the power of election investigation advocates such as Barbara Boxer in her other fights, such as the C. Rice fight, when she asks for our help.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x300342#300956

-----

And, here's a re-post of my ideas for this forum, from...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=298456&mesg_id=298456

So....

...although I understand why some want to split the forum--I AGREE that election investigation and reform is our NUMBER #1 PRIORITY, and should be for the whole country--we cannot ignore the fact that other things are happening (and people are dying!) BECAUSE this election was fraudulent, and that the elected officials who are our best bets for election fraud investigation and publicity are ALSO working on other fronts and need our help to keep them empowered, and not marginalized.

I do also see that some posters who are anti-election fraud are a pain in the ass, and we spend a lot of time answering them. But I'm not sure the time is wasted. Some of these posters are well meaning, and some are not. The ones who are well meaning represent A LOT OF PEOPLE-- who are, a) uninformed, or b) in denial, or c) see election fraud as unprovable and a hopeless cause (well-meaning Democratic centrists), etc., etc. The arguments they raise are on a lot of peoples' minds, and if we can give them pause, help them think things through, and give them info., this may help reaching a lot of other people who don't post here and don't even know about DU.

SOLUTION?

Is it possible to split a forum like this into SUB-FORUMS?

MAIN FORUM (the same): "2004 Election Results and Discussion"

MAIN SUBFORUM: "Fraud Squad" - down the middle of the page, as with DU forum page at
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

(This main subforum "Fraud Squad" would have the above-posted mission statement, and participants would be monitored.)

OTHER SUBFORUMS (down the side of the main 2004 Election page)

REPORTS, DISCUSSION & ACTION: Election Reform State by State

REPORTS, DISCUSSION & ACTION: Election Reform in Congress

RELATED ISSUES & ACTION: Bush has no mandate to...

DISCUSSION: Election Fraud Skeptics post here

(Note: We don't want to shut down genuine questioning, or skepticism on a particular fact or analysis. If an "election fraud skeptic" is banned from the main forum ("Fraud Squad"), he/she can cut and paste what they object to, and discuss it in the skeptic forum, where election fraud activists can answer, and help educate, if they wish to, and may even discover some flaws in their own arguments--and can also keep track of BushCon "talking points." This way, the "Fraud Squad" gets top billing, and will reflect a consistent message, and won't be bothered with ill meaning time-wasters.)

DU's "2004 Election Results and Discussion" is the hottest forum on the Left--and, if the truth were known (ahem...indeed, IF the truth were known), it reflects WHAT MOST PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY WOULD THINK *IF* THEY KNEW THE TRUTH! (i.e., the majority voted to repudiate Bush Inc.--they just don't know they won!).

So...to dismantle this forum might send the wrong message.

What's happening here at DU's "2004 Election Results and Discussion" is REVOLUTIONARY. It questions the fundamentals--Bush legitimacy, "consent of the governed," absolutely wrong direction of the country against the will of the majority, the reality of this fascist coup, and the extreme danger this country is in BECAUSE OF ELECTION FRAUD.

This forum deserves more prominence than it is getting, and should probably not be re-named or split into separate forums--if we can avoid it, and still be able to work on these matters efficiently and effectively.

All those dates slipped by - Dec. 12th, Jan. 6th, Jan. 20th. I admit I'm tired and feel like curling up into the fetal position in the corner and going to sleep. But you're so so right! We are the only citizen-based organized opposition to Bushitler and if we do nothing, ---well let's all imagine the worst of what rethug fascism is capable of. We're probably all too moral to even come close. Thanks for the rallying cry, Nashua Advocate!