I don't know but...the word fraud will be absent on this new forum?

"Election Reform Advocay and Action"...Hos is this possible within the limits set by the fraudulent system?

Did you forget about the year 2.ooo?

This is an excerpt form the excellent pice written by Mark H. Levine "The Gore Exception", about the fraudulent 2.000 "selection." I have to note that "election reform advocacy and action" GOT NOWHERE THAT TIME, right?

"Q: So who is punished for this behavior?

A: Gore. And the 50 million plus Americans that voted for him, some 540,000 more than voted for Bush.

Q: You're telling me Florida election laws and precedents existing for a hundred years are now suddenly unconstitutional?

A: Yes. According to the Supreme Court, the Legislature drafted the law in such a messy way that the Florida votes can never be fairly counted. Since Secretary of State Katherine Harris never got around to setting more definitive standards for counting votes, Gore loses the election.

Q: Does this mean the election laws of any of the other 49 states are unconstitutional as well?

A: Yes, if one logically applies the Supreme Court opinion. The voters of all 50 states use different systems and standards to vote and count votes, and 33 states have the same "clear intent of the voter" standard that the US Supreme Court found illegal in Florida.

Q: Then why aren't the results of these 33 states thrown out?

A: Um. Because . . . um . . . the Supreme Court doesn't say . . .

Q: But if Florida's certification includes counts expressly declared by the US Supreme Court to be unconstitutional, we don't know who really won the election there, right?

A: Right.

Q: But then what makes Bush President?

A: Good question. A careful statistical analysis by the Miami Herald extrapolates from the 170,000 uncounted votes in Florida to show Gore clearly won the state and may have done so by as much as 23,000 votes (excluding the butterfly ballot errors). See http://www.herald.com/thispage.htm?content/archive/news/elect2000/decision/104268.htm

Q: So, answer my question: what makes Bush President?

A: Since there was no time left for a re-count based on the non-binding "deadline," the Supreme Court decided to choose itself who will be President and has picked Bush to win by a vote of 5 to 4, based on the flawed count it just determined to be unconstitutional."

http://www.mediasense.com/itsnotover/SupremeCourt-QA2.htm

......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=302606&mesg_id=302606

To discuss and advocate 'reform' in the absence of concerted efforts to uncover, prosecute the perpetrators and educate our fellow citizens on the vast 'inertia of fraud' is already a well documented 'no-go.' Any doubts, look how far electoral reform got in the 107th and 108th US Congresses -- NOWHERE. And, its going to be much harder now because the scale of the 'inertia of fraud' has expanded, significantly.

BE THE BUSH OPPOSITION;24/7

The same tactical mistake is repeated by playing in the ground that the criminals have determined for people in the opposition, unfortunately.

I share your concerns.

Regards

about? I just don't get why people think fraud needs to be in the name for us to talk about it when it wasn't before?

That's my opinion.

Clear, precise, on message.

part of election reform!
See these two threads for explanation:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x298329

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x298456

My take is that the word FRAUD must be an element of the presentation of this forum.

In any way, shape or form you like, but present in a VERY visible way.

Regards

I think that is the point of this forum. BTW, it isn't a new forum. It is the same forum with a new name, and a slightly more refined topic since for the most part the "Election" is over. Before the election this forum was called Campaign 2004. Things change. I don't think we're all going to suddenly stopping talking about fraud in here. Although I also wish the word Fraud was in the forum name...

You should ask in ATA.

I'm a bit surprised that wasn't possible to pick a better, more consensual and representative new name for the forum.

Regards

I mentioned a few times in the threads that I think the word 'Fraud' should be included. LOTS of other posters said the same thing. I have no decision-making power - if you don't like the decision, take it up with the admins. If they didn't read all the posts about it it isn't my fault.

I saw the name of the forum in a single post, that's all.

And if the mods have the power to choose without reading opinions (they do, in fact) I guess this conversation is just "philosophical."

Thanks

...posting a poll with at least the following name suggestions and urging the Admins to support the outcome of a majority vote:

Election Reform Advocacy and Action

Stop Election Fraud: Advocate Electoral Justice

Stop Election Fraud: Electoral Reform & Advocacy

(others)

--------------

Thank you.


BE THE BUSH OPPOSITION; 24/7 (aka TBO;24/7)

Maybe I did too much by starting that thread last week. :shrug:

I started a group proposal last week because there had been a lot of talk among many people here that we were losing focus. My original idea failed. Skinner vetoed it. That is fine. What is NOT fine is people acting like it's my responsibility that Admin picked a name they don't like (and frankly I don't like either - wouldn't have been my first choice).

Posting in ATA is not that hard. If more people had put their 2 cents in (in ATA) in the first place, maybe a more universally acceptable name would have been picked.

The name of this forum would probably have been changed pretty soon anyway, it used to be Campaign 2004, then Election R & D, it is a natural evolution. Things change as topics change. And mine was NOT the only thread in ATA about this.

Please know I am not trying to sound snarky to either of you - I just needed to get that off my chest in general.


Peace.

KEEP HOPE ALIVE

edit for spelling

lots of people wanted the word fraud in the name, and I for one am glad you followed up on nashua advocate's thought that we needed to refocus! For those of us really trying to work on fraud /reform, it is hard to sort through the many unrelated threads that get posted in here and too much useful stuff gets buried in a day because of the sheer volume of threads. We need to be as efficient as we can because there is a huge amount of work to do on fraud/reform.

It's only been since Jan. 6 that people have been posting all kinds of stuff that reallly fits in other forums. I am seeing a lot of complaints about how the other forums aren't as interesting ast this one but maybe if people would post in the forum related to their topic those forums would get more interesting. Of course they aren't going to be interesting if eveyone comes here to post rather than going to the forum for that topic.

I am afraid I am the scapegoat today for many, since my name was on that thread (which, btw, was for a proposal that got shot down). I am hoping that once everyone gets over the shock of the name change it will be okay.

It's kind of funny, when the name changed from Campaign 2004 to Election R & D, no one freaked out. There was some talk on the forum that a new name was needed because the old one was obselete. That's what pretty much happened this time too.

Anyway, I appreciate your post.

:toast:

...because all you were doing was raising an important and necessary issue.

The administrators here are outstanding and perhaps the results of the poll will either confirm the name they chose or suggest a more cohesive name. I think if 'fraud' is absent from the name, the 'cart' will be miles in front of the 'horse' and events in Congress since 2000 suggest we better focus on the 'horse' if we're ever going to move the 'cart.'

Peace.

BE THE BUSH OPPOSITION; 24/7 (aka TBO;24/7)

I wouldn't say unpleasant...I just don't want to f*ck anything up or piss anyone off. But no regrets - all I did was propose a Group ;)

people hadn't started posting all kinds of unrelated stuff. It was still all election related. It is amazing how fast this forum has changed into a forum where people are posting all kinds of stuff not election related since Jan. 6.

I understand why you were suggesting starting a new group because people do seem to be attached to being able to talk about whatever they want in here, but it is so big that that it impedes its effectiveness as an action forum. Part of the problem is many are here for action, to work for change, and others are here for other reasons...entertainment? Community? and the two groups can be at cross purposes with each other when the forum gets so big that it lessons its usefullness due to how quickly important threads get buried. The line has to be drawn somewhere...or why bother to have different forums with different topics?

I still say that those who say the other forums are boring, so they post non-relevant topics in here would find those other forums would get a lot more interesting a lot faster if they went to the relevant forum and posted there. Of course it will be boring if no one goes there to post and they all come here regardless of the topic.

Whether it's LBN, GD & GD:Politics (which I'm kinda scared of ;) ) or the Lounge, there is always some kind of something going on! I generally only post in here and the Lounge. If entertainment is what you want, I recommend hanging out in there :evilgrin:

:hi: (check your PM)
On edit: LMFAO - I didn't mean for the 'P' in politics to turn into a smilie, but I like it! That's what a colon and a capital P makes!

It's that this forum seems to draw people who are looking to work. I've noticed quite a few "type A" personalities here! LOL :)

Activism will save our party. We can't let the other stuff drop which is why we all need to help the other things that are going on as well. That's why I've been trying to support the Activism & Events forum so the other worthy action items won't get left in the dust.

As far as having "fraud" in the name of the forum - it matters not to me.

If not for fraud, then no reform, right? Oh, I consider disenfranchisement to be fraud too, not just rigging of the machines.

So, it's hand-in-hand to me. I don't have to see the word "fraud" to know that there was fraud. I just have to look at *'s face and I know it.

no matter what form it takes. And I agree, wouldn't need reform if we didn't have fraud.

"Elections--Justice and Reform"
------------------------------

I am a proponent of the HIGHEST level of concern about election fraud. (Thanks RaulVB for this post maintaining that what happened in 2000 is not forgiveable or forgettable). Continuing to hammer the evidence for fraud is crucial in any push for reform. We must root out the ways election fraud is perpetrated and find solutions.

But we here who see truth so clearly need to realize that others haven't quite come to accept the idea that something so egregious as widespread election fraud/suppression could occur in their democracy. There is a lot of denial in general about the pervasive tendency to cheating and fraud in our culture which allows for the
"looking the other way." (Read-- The Cheating Culture by David Callahan or Masters of Deception by Louis Mizell). When you WANT to TRUST your government, you can convince yourself that the election of 2000 had to be decided by the referees and it's all OK.

This is why I think for the name of the forum it's best to avoid the word "fraud" which is such a touchy "lightning rod" word --it can be used to marginalize us. We have even been erroneously called "fraudsters" (meaning those who perpetrate fraud) already.

I think using the word "Justice" implies the many grave wrongs that have been perpetrated and the commitment to uncovering them. Includes everything--fraud, suppression, tampering, malfeasance of any kind, includes the larger issue of the SCOTUS ruling in 2000 and federal government responsibility for election protection.

....I think we need to focus on something you articulate quite well:

"But we here who see truth so clearly need to realize that others haven't quite come to accept the idea that something so egregious as widespread election fraud/suppression could occur in their democracy. There is a lot of denial in general about the pervasive tendency to cheating and fraud in our culture which allows for the
"looking the other way." "

You are correct that a number of our fellow citizens have been willing to focus on the considerable imperfections of our election system, while most, for a variety of reasons have not. As you note, a dangerous tendency is indeed "looking the other way" regarding "cheating and fraud."

What we must do is establish compelling and pervasive messages (an "election fraud and reform literacy program," if you will) that make it exceptionally difficult to "look the other way." Those messages must contain explicit references to election fraud -- all of its manifestations from suppression of voters to rigging the electronics.

Irrespective of what others attempt to label our effort, we would be just as guilty as everyone else if we do not speak and write, in the clearest of terms, about the pervasiveness of fraud in our election system.

If we aren't willing to take the heat; why should we expect anyone to listen to what we have to say?

Peace.

BE THE BUSH OPPOSITION;24/7 (aka TBO;24/7)

I am ready and willing to "take the heat." And I think as you say--compelling messages should contain specific references to election fraud in all its manifestions. Totally, totally agree. The fraud word should not be avoided--it should be out front.

However...
I was suggesting an improvement on calling this the "Reform A and A" group as the administrators have chosen. A middle way might be to get "Investigation" or "Justice" into the name. That's all. I agree that it weakens the concept by just saying "voting reform." Please understand that I am not in the camp of trying to hide fraud--I have written on the subject elsewhere and am vitally concerned that we call it what it is. The administrators' choice reflects this very resistance.

So I appreciate your effort to make your perspective clear, and I am absolutely on your wave.

I've been told by someone else that there's no use pursuing this forum name thing now anyway, so I'll give up.

edited by mg

But the decision had already been made.

and Skinner's response is actually what alerted me to the name change today!

:hi:
The irony about DU is that it isn't Democratic. But for the most part, I think the Admins make pretty good decisions. My guess is they didn't really read the threads (mine and nashuaadvocate's) very carefully. Or they had a good reason NOT to put the word Fraud in, although that would surprise me. My guess is they're just really busy and no one else (but you) posted their opinion in ATA for a name.

Maybe a poll would help, I don't know.

but i don't like the new name. i think it's weak and typical. why do so many refuse to use the word fraud? but whatever, i just won't pay attention to the name.

It's not about the name, it's about what we do!

:hi:

I don't think we are going to convince anyone else out there about fraud, but we CAN convince (like ya'll did me :) ) that because of the STINK out there (likely or possible fraud) we need to reform the election system.
In other words, I dont have to CONVINCE anyone out there that Fraud occurred for sure, but I always get them to admit that maybe it did, and that should be enough.
No one I talk with disagrees with vote reform, and yet very few of them are convinced of fraud.
But the idea that it may have occurred is enough.

democratic electoral system, and should just stop holding elections and find another way for the elites to chose who will govern.

Widespread systematic vote machine fraud, and dirty tricks and suppression of minority registration and voting in at least 20 states in 2004 Election: summary of some of the documentation

http://www.flcv.com/ussumall.html

Have posted it here as a reference:

http://www.velvetrevolution.us/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=485#485

Peace.

BE THE BUSH OPPOSITION;24/7

integral part of reform and those who read the threads leading up to the name change know that. See post number two for links to those threads.

FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD
FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD
FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD
FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD
FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD
FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD

on our country by **. The fact the people are shying away from using the word "fraud" scares me. Either they don't believe the election was stolen, or people are succumbing to peer pressure -- not the popular belief. This is exactly what THEY want us to do, forget about it, because the rest of the world is doing that.

But we know in our hearts that there was fraud. And, if there was no fraud, there would be no need for election reform. It's just symbolic that the word be used. But by eliminating the word fraud, you are saying, well we know you screwed us, we are just going to forget about that and try to change the system so you won't do it again. The thing about that approach is that THEY will come up with something more crooked. We have to nail the evil doers not just try to stay one step ahead of them.(or behind)

I like (I think it was Raul's idea) the idea of a Get Bush forum -- just for investigating and debating ALL the many ways he has broken the law.

That's what it should be named, and, just like LBN, if people start posts that aren't related, the threads should be moved to a proper forum.

Right now I don't give a frikkin' damn about ANYTHING else. Our Democracy has been totally trashed by election fraud, and NOTHING else is going to matter -- to me, or to at least HALF of the people on the globe -- if we don't attack the problem -- head on -- that allows MANIACS to be put in as the heads of the most powerful country on earth.

The Boxer Rebellion is part of our activism, as is Keith Olberman's show as it relates to researching fraud. They are using our activism to grow some spine, and we need to be able to focus on those things that are supporting our cause.

So far, this new forum is acting like an A.N.S.W.E.R. protest speech, and it's just too unfocused for the important work that needs to be done.

ELECTION FRAUD RESEARCH AND ACTIVISM FORUM

THAT should be the name of the forum.

:kick::kick::kick: