I think Kerry is working behind the scenes........

The more I think about it, the more I am beginnng to believe that there is something up. The post about his own exit polling telling him he was winning decisively. He knew he won the election, he had to. So, okay, what to do. Edwards goes out and gives a kind of cryptic message, insinuating they would fight. I believe that Kerry conceded because he had to. If he didn't, there would be the relentless attacks and they would turn it against him, just as they did to Al Gore. But I don't think that means he has moved on. It just makes no sense that he would give up that easily.

save us all one day.

Or take someones hope away. :grr:

I firmly believe he did what is best for the party's future. He's an intelligent guy, he'll pull through the least harmed. If he declares there's fraud no one will take him like a 'sore loser'.

Look at your own life.....the good always look bad...I don't think that a man that stuck his head out after the other unjust war, would act in their interests now. I won't judge him until I have learned more about it. I have my doubts about him too, and have all along...like...is he and Ted Kennedy in bed with them. I still wonder, but we have to keep an open mind and do a lot of research.

Thousands of people worked to win this election for more than a year. They didn't give up or disappear. And unless they were working hard on something, we'd be hearing their roar right now.

Somethings coming. I can feel it.


Oh, it's the cat tugging on my sock. But really...

I wrote this in one thread and this is the second time I've repeated it tonight. :)

Here is what I think. Kerry/Edwards are very much involved with what is going on right now -- BEHIND the scenes. We need to get the media to pay attention to VOTER FRAUD.

As I asked in a previous post, 'what do the repukes always do when someone points a finger at them?' They find a distraction. If Kerry were to come out now, they'd be pointing fingers at HIM, yelling about how 'Kerry is trying to steal the election.' And the White House controlled media would pay attention to ?? - 'Kerry stealing the election.' They wouldn't do a single thing about reporting on voter fraud. Kerry HAS to stay out of the light right now. The story has to be about voter fraud, not Kerry. And the more stories we have the better. The repukes can't pull off THAT many distractions.

Secondly, something I thought about after hearing KKKarl on the political shows on Sunday. What could be better than giving Rove/*/gang the chance to brag about what they plan on doing in the future? What could be better than * speaking last week and hearing him be so blatantly arrogant? What could be better than hearing that Iran is next? The 'draft' word is being used more and more. What could be better than hearing that MOST of the world is AGAINST *? I think this can help Kerry as well.

Maybe, just maybe, this is going to make people who voted for * think about what they have done. They voted their 'values/morals' :puke: and look what it got them. Another war. A draft. An arrogant idiot who thinks he's on a throne. And hundreds and probably thousands of more bloody, dead bodies in Iraq. And if it does make them think, so much the better for us when the voter fraud story finally hits home.
Maybe a lot of those Americans who voted for * would now be happy to see Kerry take his rightful place. It would sure help us in turning this thing around if we have * voters going against him after a few short weeks. I really think Kerry/Edwards have thought this through and I think they are giving * just enough rope to hang himself in the court of public opinion.

I think John Kerry knows exactly what he is doing. He didn't give a concession speech to give up. He did it to SHUT UP the repukes. If they were yelling, we'd NEVER hear about Black Box Voter fraud.

All's quiet folks. It's OUR turn to yell. :bounce:

edited to add the smilies that didn't 'cut and paste.' :)

we need the support of republicans who believe there was fraud. AND I KNOW some republicans who are wondering too, about the fraud. So let's not make this just a democratic issue because in the end it's not.

here's some stuff to use (this is obviously HIGHLY partisan, and thus not suitable for every media outlet, but still there's some compelling stuff buried in here -- and don't forget that we need to publicize this to our friends, family, bloggers, Congress, evernyone/anyone we can think of):

VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

And after providing that link, something that I've been wanting for days, you can think I'm wrong all you want! :)

Thank you SO much for the link.

Believe me, it's going to be used. :bounce:

or two. They might be sending the American people a little message as they dump dollars and stop buying our debt. That'll force interest rates up. Could be a rather unpleasent shock to Americans and remind them that there are consequences in our choices for President.

hope it to be the case.

If Kerry challenged the results, dragging this out, the Re-pubes would scream about how Kerry (and all Dems) were sore losers. Not the best thing for the minority party to do atm. I think we should focus on the positive aspects.

Kerry still has his senate seat. He has gotten more press and respect (56 million or so voters thought HE should be president- he should play up that angle in senate votes, committees, etc)

It will still be hard for the senate to get the votes they need to confirm *'s appointments to the supreme court (they don't have enough votes to pull it off)- we won't have ultra conservatives, but merely somewhat conservatives on the bench.

Many Republican senators are put off by *'s extreme right slant in the political arena, making him have to pull a bit back from the extreme right to get anything done.

Sure, there is a republican majority in the house and the senate, but if you look at the leanings of those republicans in congress, there are just too many moderate leaning republicans in the legislative body for * to get a clear pass on all of his initiatives.

Plan of action: those of you who live in states represented by Red senators, keep on top of issues and write them letters when key votes come up. Those of you living in representational districts that have Red representatives, do the same. Let them know that there is a significant amount of voters who are going to determine if they are going to get to keep their job 2/4/6 years from now. Let them know that you oppose the far right policies espoused by Bush.

Stop focusing on what has already, might have, or didn't happen and focus on what you can do *now* and in the future to help act as a check on power.

Just because the Re-pubes control all three branches of the American government doesn't mean they will be working together to forward one specific agenda. There is already division showing in the Right's ranks. Do what you can to widen that. Do all you can to keep them from pushing their agenda forward.

In the meantime, identify and advocate candidates and policies on the local and state-wide level that will push through the progressive agenda. If you live in a state that allows voter initiatives, work to put some initiatives on the ballot that Dems feel strongly about. Turn it around in 2006.

The fathers set this Republic up so that there would be so much tension between the various branches of government that any one group would have a very hard time pushing forward their agenda.

SO: If you happen to have a republican senator or representative on capitol hill advocating for you: MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD so that they know that giving * a blank check on his policies would amount to career suicide for them.

Remember: More people may have voted for * than for any previous presidential candidate, BUT more people voted for Kerry than for any presidential candidate pre-2004 as well. It was NOT a decisive election and the people still have power.

Get out there, you Dems in Red states, stay on issues and votes, let your congressmen KNOW that they are being watched and that you won't let the voters forget when the next election comes along.

We still have power, we just have to use it.

After all, this is a representative government, they represent us, and they'd better f'ing remember that if they want to keep their jobs.

"Fuck You Liberal Godless Jack-Asses?"

I've got my fingers crossed.

know about it. What would he do, come tell the freepers not to listen, he has a secret message to pass on to all the real dems? A lot of people here are abandoning hope simply because Kerry hasn't come out and said he's going to get the skunks. I don't think he will until there is enough ground swell on this to make it feasible. Dem2theMax, your ideas on the reasons for this are completely reasonable.

And suppose Kerry IS just off hiding somewhere doning NOTHING (which really doesn't seem in character). What should we be doing then? Why, exactly the same thing most of us are doing now. People with statistics and research skills are crunching numbers as fast as they can. The rest of us are making sure the issue eventually breaks through to the media. Writing, emailing, faxing, calling, protesting, signing, anything we can think of so that the media will simply have to report what is happening as it becomes apparent to millions and millions of Americans that something is up.

NH is a great start in this process. The captive media will have to mention this, even if just as a curious aside. They may bury it, hidden by Fallujah, but it will still make a lot of people wonder what is going on. If we can keep this momentum going, we may yet save democracy.

And that is the ultimate point, whether Kerry is doing something stealthy of not (and why not continue in that hope, there isn't anything to contradict it). WE need to stop the theft for the future of our country and the world. WE have the power to make them pay attention. And who knows, even if Kerry is off licking his wounds (again, that theory just doesn't seem in character), if WE bring enough energy and attention to the election tampering issue, he may be forced to step up to bat. I suspect he's already winding up for one hell of a drive.

There have been a lot of people here at DU lately posting doom and gloom messages. "we are abandoned" "all is lost" etc. Think about this for a minute. We know that the repugs would like nothing better than for us to feel whipped. They not only don't want us to fight THIS election, they definitely don't want us to fight the machines. Their plans for the future fascist imperium are based on the machines.

One reason that a Kerry stealth plan would have to be very, very...stealthy, is that political campaigns are full of spies. Even people fairly high up may not be all they say they are. And that goes for here too. We know that at least 2 people who had posted here for a long time "unveiled" last week. Don't doubt that more didn't break cover. Sometimes in a war, the enemy will sacrifice a few spies to make a group think they are all gone.

KKKarl would like nothing better than for us to abandon hope, abandon our efforts to find and spread the truth. He wants us demoralized, depressed, and deactivated. I can't know whether the people spreading loss of hope are KKKarl operatives, sympathizers, or simply foolish. What I do know is that the message of demotivation fits his desires, no matter who spreads it. Don't be sucked in.

are not actors or businessmen; Kerry and Edwards are two skilled LAWYERS.

then it is indeed a wise move. I agree with your reasoning.

wishful thinking. I so badly need this to be true. I am holding my breath waiting for any kind of a sign that someone cares about this election. If they don't then I might have to call it quits too and move on to another place. I can't bear to be disappointed again. Someone has to be interested in saving democracy and it needs to be one of our leaders. Someone has to speak to us soon. But if they come out as did Clinton, I would have to tear up my Dem card. That would be very sad.

And I also think about how people are saying the economy is poised for troubles. And Iraq does not look good. I don't want the country to slip or for soldiers to die. But if things mess up, the Repubs will have to squat in a mess of their own making. Meantime, hanging in there makes sense. And doing what we can to expose the fraud committed in the election. Heck, I'm still holding hope that the Valerie Plamme issue explodes in their faces.

but I can't see it. I can't set myself up for a letdown again either. Sometimes false hope IS worse than no hope at all.

rcm

from taking action on their OWN.

And that's what I see happening. There's lots that needs to be done, but as long as people are sitting around thinking and wishing that Kerry/Edwards (or God knows who else other than they themselves) are working "behind the scenes," the forward progress we might otherwise make is thwarted.

I also hate to see people unnecessarily disappointed, esp. when they do it to themselves.

We've been "waiting" for the Dems to do something about this burdgeoning fascist state since the Selection, and while a few have done a few things, all it has really amounted to has been pretty speeches (Byrd) or pretty paperwork (Waxman, Conyers, etc.).

The time for waiting is over, IMO. It's now or never, US or no one. Mark my words.

Or don't.

Compendium:
VOTE FRAUD Links - a DU Compendium
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=201&topic_id=1984#

Taking Action (also see "Activism" posts in Compendium)
Good news and bad news
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2632513#2632589

...we're not sitting around moping and weeping and sobbing... we've found a way to channel that energy and are doing whatever we can do to expose fraud. Even if we can't prove it, this has certainly helped me a lot - it turned that impotent helpless furious feeling into something else - pride that we CAN do SOMETHING, satisfaction in knowing that, even in a small way, I wasn't powerless. And it gives me something to do while the feelings of withdrawal wear off.

If Kerry really has backed away and he's abandoned us, then by the time this becomes apparent beyond a doubt, even to the hardcores, I'll be ready for the next step, acceptance. I'm not there yet and I need this activity to get there. I don't see it as false hope, I see it as a catharsis.

And what if we succeed? What if there's provable fraud, and we change history? Well then... wow...

Just wait and see. He has Jupiter coming yet to energize the good fight--you ain't seen nothing yet. He was born for this time.

He has Pluto coming to help him oppose a strangling opponent...
He may prevail, he may not. But he is not done.

Whether he breaks our hearts or not is not the issue. He is only human, and look what he is up against. Who among us could have kept going in the face of that relentless, vicious character assassination?

Our question is, are we willing to keep standing and fighting for our democracy instead of insisting on a savior or hero? This may be one of the most crucial lessons we are learning about democracy now!

then I will become a believer in the stars.

I'm going to make a copy and put it in my file.

I'm grasping at straws -- while listening to some of the worst dumb ass callers to Mike Webb. It is amazing that people these dumb asses keep trying to educate Webb.

but I do know this . . . if he has actually abandoned us and does not fight the outright theft of this election, any hopes he has of future leadership are DOA . . . many of us will not support someone who would let this grand larceny pass without giving them the fight of their lives . . .

where you could donate to challenge the election results or recount votes or something like that. I sent that around and got my friends to donate!!! What happened to that money??? I hope John Edwards is working some major challenge up!!! I would send more money!!!

I have to admit, I'm a flip-flopper on this topic!

After re-reading through the concession speeches I can spin it in both directions.
Until this evening I had never heard Edwards pre-Kerry concession speech & I can see why it gives people hope. Lots to be read into that!
On the other hand - sometimes what's best is to remain a 'voice' in a lesser position while still retaining the respect to do so (hence the concession speech of Kerry at face value)

In other words - we can spin it any way we want. None of us know what the stakes are better than Kerry. If we trusted him enough to vote for him, then I guess we just have to trust him enough to stand by whatever he's decided.

What do I believe? Honestly I don't know anymore - I spent the better part of the past week trying to find proof of fraud myself. I've gone through the various stages I guess. Last night I went to bed thinking about myself, "You are nuts, do you know how far-fetched some of your thoughts/ideas are?" But I woke up today more convinced than ever. Call it a gut feeling, say it's biased due to all I've learned/read about the * admin, I dunno - but it's there & even when I try to beg it away, it comes back. And that, I cannot ignore.

all the "little people" doing all the work at their great expense to try to find out what went wrong, when he had this incredible operation incredibly well-funded and ready to go....? There is something extremely unsavory about that thought, so I'm going to hold out some hope that there is a strategy and Kerry IS working on the sidelines.

Get used to it. Nobody will do this for us. We have to do it ourselves.

Corporate America controls the media and we get manufactured news.
Corporate America now controls the voting machines and we get manufactured elections.

http://www.blackboxvoting.org/

We are--like it or not--the only real hope we have. This is, after all, our country. Are we going to lie down or are we going to fight to take it back? Are we going to take the truth to everyone we can and make them understand? DO we "have the power"? What do we have to lose? Our freedom? Are we any less free if we try?

It is a nice and warm idea to hear such giving us some remote home to cling to but isn't the reality that Kerry has conceded and the election is now history? I would love to be wrong but I am sorry. It would appear the election as bitter and horrible as it is is now history. It's official isn't it. Working behind the scenes is one thing but what can he actually do if anything? Very little it would seem to me.

In Ohio, a recount can be requested by the candidate's electors or by the "voters" perhaps in the form of a request by the candidate's party. John Kerry would presumably have nothing to do with such a request, though I can imagine a scenario where he would be called upon by the Bushies to call off the Democratic attack dogs.

If the provisional ballots still being counted in Ohio bring Kerry's vote count up to a place where a recount could be requested, then a recount could be requested by the voters. In such an event, Kerry should sit on the sidelines and refuse to interfere with the will of the people. He could un-concede at such a time that the votes are recounted and he is declared the winner of Ohio's electoral votes.

Zen politics. Gotta love it.

If the democratic national organization and the candidates are sitting on the fraud as firmly as their current missives and attitudes infer, we have been moved beyond Nader Nader-land.

Frankly if I had seen this kind of theory as the sole means of instilling faith in the party I could not have forced my feet to move down a single street. I can do these other things though, this battle for the truth. If they next stage comes to the unthinkable, I don't know who can face what must be done or the impracticality of it.

A vote reform movement without the legislative backbone support of any party or significant other. Yeah, that'll be interesting.

What is with all these people urging others to have FAITH? If faith isn't based on actions on reality, that's the * type of faith that ignores how things really are.

No, if we are going to clean this mess up, we are on our own, from the ground up.

Together we can take back our great country!

Look how much we have uncovered in the past six days, considering the shock we all experienced a week ago tonight.

John Kerry would never desert us and we must never desert John Kerry.

If there's anyone with the ability and connections to work behind the scenes, it's John Kerry.

Let John Kerry do his thing, while we do ours!

Personally, I think a very brilliant co-ordinated strategy is unfolding and it involves all of us!

I just wonder why no one at BBV has heard from him, or at least they're not acting like it. Ida says she's spearheading this pretty much alone... it's just weird.

I put a hell of a lot of money, time, and effort into his campaign, and into the larger democratic cause as well. I wish that I could genuinely share your optimism.

My feelings are that the "blue sky folks" who barked and criticized any legitimate concerns which were expressed by the realists on this newsgroup, just cannot let the idea go that they were wrong.

The truth is, we lost by a landslide, and there is no plan.

Our leadership squandered the money we donated, and fucked up the campaign message so bad that the result was total incoherence.

There is no brilliance in what has happened. There are only creative wishes expressed by those who still deny reality.

Especially when I keep getting emails saying that people should contact Cameron Kerry (CKerry@Mintz.com) because JK will UNconcede if fraud is found. IF?

I don't know if this article has any real basis in fact (has everyone gotten it too? From Cynthia Butler)

I received several emails from people who had contributed quite a bit to the 'recount fund' and wondered what happened with that.

I have to hope 'something' is going on behind the scenes we don't know about.

in this case, it's better to assume that nothing is being done behind the scenes. it serves a much finer purpose if the people who uncover any incontrovertable evidence of fraud are private citizens and are not part of the political sphere.

i don't believe that the results of this election will change. on the other hand, i do believe that the circumstances people voted under and voted with can and will change.

it is better to start from the bottom and expose the entire network, and have it come down of it's own accord. remember who took down bcci? that didn't happen overnight, and was done at great political risk. i believe in the character of john kerry, and i believe that we would have a strong ally on this, but not until there's a definte frayed thread, from which to pull the fabric of the vote fraud apart.

j

After the results are certified,
THEN, it is time to challenge them. Not before.
I can remain hopeful til then.

I'm NEVER voting again and, I'll never give another cent to any democratic organization. (as the point of their existence will be moot)

If nothing is done, all of you can spend your time, energy, and $ in 2006, '08, etc., but all you'll be doing is keeping a myth (that you have representation) alive. The worst part is that this particular anaesthetic is that it's self-administered.

Gyre

amen. if the dems don't fight unverified voting, the dems would be offering no more than stalking horse candidates in 06 and 08. we'd have to admit that nader, tho maybe 4 years too early in 2000, was ultimately right about this party -- dead on arrival.

Trust me, the DNC does NOT think like the average DUer.

I would be pleasantly suprised if DEMS were being this sharp.

DNC on the other.

I have to believe this because it makes no sense for everyone in the party to stay this quiet and for Kerry to concede so fast when they had so much evidence of fraud.

Plus, and this is the most important reason, if the DNC thinks that they can sit down and do nothing in front of this flagrant violation of electoral laws, specially when their base worked harder than ever in history to put them in power, then they might as well close the party down because with or without vote tampering they won't ever again be able to get a single vote in their favor.

Oh! And I missed to point out one very importante thing: Doing nothing also makes them accomplices in the crimes, at least in the eyes of their base.

Doing nothing would equate to political suicide on a massive scale and they know it.

I keep waiting to hear SOMETHING from someone! Everyday I've been here on DU reading (just joined today - thanks skinner) and on BBV and googling "voter fraud" to come up with very little in the mainstream. I started to actually say the words outloud a few days ago, to my husband, to my family (mostly, other democrats). I've been e-mailing copies to the people I know of things like votergate.tv and blogs like Kieth Olberman.

I'm WAITING patiently, holding my breath, hoping something hits the press or K/E comes out to say something. Or MoveOn says something. Or Michael Moore gets louder. Or... someone... says something!

Am I going to turn blue waiting (or maybe I have already!)

A.

Having seen the exit polls - probably celebrated, were likely congratulated - these two have been so wired by the campaign that they couldn't sit still IF THEY WANTED TO! Think about it! They are both accomplished lawyers - prosecutor and plaintiff lawyers used to attacking! Kerry, we all know busted the hell out of the BCCI scandal - and Edwards was an extremely accomplished trial lawyer - great fighters both! Kerry is 60 - he like doesn't get another chance. Edwards gave up his Senate seat - he's now jobless. Yes, I know his wife is ill - but at this point (and hopefully not ever) acting as caretaker isn't exactly a full time job.

It's true that if he came out with the protest before he had the facts, he would have been Gored mercilessly. We ALL knew this was likely coming - are you telling me you thing THEY didn't know/anticipate this - their families have posted on DU. Chris Heinz said he wasn't going to convert his thread "into a BBV thread" - proving his familiarity with the e-voting controversy lingo. Kerry has anticipated absolutely everything else - there is no way this was overlooked. The fraud is widespread, obvious, and VERY sloppy. If we can find it so much, imagine how much more they can find! The timing of the assault on Fallujah - this really may be a decoy to get America away from thinking about the election - an election that many droves of people felt positive Kerry was going to win. With the huge voter turnout, the numbers simply don't add up - the final vote tally is short by AT LEAST 10 million votes!! This isn't going to be all that hard to prove - and Kerry/Edwards are simply NOT going to let these treasonous thieves get away with the frickin' crime of the century!!