Re: MoveOn's Petition

MoveOn is circulating a petition on e-voting but does
specify the proper remedy. I know that most of you
have written to your reps already. Please take the
time to inform MoveON that e-voting machines are not
acceptable with or without paper receipts.
If e-voting with secret source code becomes the method of choice all other reforms to our dysfunctional electoral system will be meaningless.

they say

"Several great bills have just been introduced in Congress"

these are NOT great bills! only one of them (Holt) does anything at all to address computer fraud.

a paper receipt that does not match the vote that was cast is not an improvement!

how can we set them straight?!!!

It's up to each of us to show them the light. Explain it simply so they get it.

I've tried several times to find a mailing address, fax number, or even an email address. I can never find anything on their website for contact info.

Gary

a fax number would be better

Dear MoveOn member,

Several great bills have just been introduced in Congress to repair the embarrassing flaws in our election system -- from electronic voting machines to long lines to partisan election officials. Everyone's waiting to see if this new legislation will pick up speed or fall victim to partisan bickering. If we act right now, we can give these bills the early momentum they need.

Later we'll tell you more about how your contributions are exposing election errors in Ohio, but first we need your help to get this legislation moving. There's no time to lose: In the coming months, states are poised to buy a billion dollars worth of unreliable electronic voting machines without paper trails.

Can you speed election repairs by signing this new petition?

http://www.moveonpac.org/repairthevote/

We'll deliver your comments to your Senators and Representative. A massive grassroots push could move legislation through Congress in time for the 2006 election.

Last November, a paperless e-voting machine lost more than 4,000 votes in North Carolina, leaving a tight statewide race up in the air for months.1 Another mistakenly added nearly 4,000 votes to Bush's total in Ohio.2 The solution for these electronic glitches is straightforward: e-voting machines should be equipped to print an ATM-like receipt for every voter. Voters can see their choices are recorded accurately on paper, and if there's any question about the outcome, a recount can rely on these voter-verified paper ballots. Only then can we know an election was run fairly.

Last week, Senators Clinton (D-NY), Boxer (D-CA), Kerry (D-MA), and Lautenberg (D-NJ) introduced a far-reaching bill to require paper receipts, provide remedies for long lines, stop partisan election officials, and institute a national holiday for voting. Senators John Ensign (R-NV) and Harry Reid (D-NV) have introduced bipartisan legislation focused on voter-verified paper ballots. In the House, Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ) has introduced a bill to require paper ballots and audit electronic machines to make sure they're counting properly. All these bills would ensure handicap accessible voting and all would vastly improve our election system.

At our Future of MoveOn house parties after the election, MoveOn members chose election reform as one of our top priorities. Your donations are making it possible to get to the bottom of what happened in Ohio and problems with electronic voting machines there and elsewhere.

Two months ago, we heard a disturbing story from an Ohio voter. A senior citizen, on Election Day she voted for Kerry on the electronic voting machine at her precinct, but the machine indicated a vote for Bush. She changed her selection several times and the machine kept showing Bush. Finally, it showed a vote for Kerry and it appeared her vote was counted, but she was far from sure.

Badly shaken, she went to a lawyer for help but couldn't afford a legal fight. The lawyer approached MoveOn PAC for help, and we offered funds donated by members supporting electoral reform. The attorney used the Ohio Public Records Act to demand information on the voting machines. Local officials resisted and the lawyer prepared to sue.

In response, the local officials backed down and provided the computer records of what happened that day for all the electronic voting machines in the county, along with paper documents that can be compared to the computer records.

Using the funds from MoveOn members, one of the nation's top experts on electronic voting machines will now go through the data. The expert's conclusions will be turned over to authorities who are investigating voting irregularities.

The voter who raised this complaint (who has asked us not to reveal her name because the matter is ongoing) deeply appreciates MoveOn's support. She told us, "I can't change the outcome of the election, but we can find out what happened. If something went wrong, then someone should be held accountable. I just want to know -- did my vote count?" We will continue to support her fight to uncover flaws in Ohio's election system.

In the meantime, Congress can repair what we already know is broken -- from requiring paper receipts to providing remedies for long lines to prohibiting election officials from campaigning for a candidate.

Sign our petition right now:

http://www.moveonpac.org/repairthevote/

Thank you for all you do for democracy.

Sincerely,

--Noah T. Winer, Adam Ruben, Eli Pariser, and the whole MoveOn PAC team
Wednesday, February 23rd, 2005

P.S. Yesterday, the New York Times editorial urged Congress to pass these very bills. You can read it at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/22/opinion/22tues1.html

Sources:
1. "Democrat concedes Agriculture post," The Sun News, February 5, 2005
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=642

2. "Report Says Technical Foul Up Inflated Franklin County Bush Votes," Associated Press, February 12, 2005
http://www.nbc4i.com/news/4192153/detail.html

PAID FOR BY MOVEON PAC
Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

We keep seeing the fox guarding the hen house...

We keep seeing the Dems failing to be an opposition party...

We keep seeing a rigged system where power is shared between two groups engaged in simulated competition...

Why would anybody think change will come by going through Congress, the same body that:

• passed the Patriot Act without reading it (even reading it would be no excuse)


• whitewashed two investigations of 9/11, leaving fewer questions answered than unanswered, and fewer unanswered that even were asked


• surrendered its Constitutional right to declare war while failing to contest known lies given as the grounds for fighting


• ratified two bogus presidential elections and moved to institutionalize many of the means by which fraud will continue to occur

You know you could add to this list without any more help from me...

You know that this list represents the treason committed at the highest levels of the US government...

You know that a leopard doesn't change its spots and there is no reason to believe reform will come from within the federal government...

You know that, in any event, large scale change will only occur when We The People exercise powers that rightfully belong to us...

You know it is easier to talk to your neighbor and City Councilmember than it is make your Senator responsive or your Congressmember accountable...

You know we will take back our country only when entire communities stand in open revolt to tyranny, joining forces with other communities doing the same, collectively representing the unified voices of large swaths of We The People...

You know there is NO BASIS FOR CONFIDENCE IN THE LEGITIMACY OF US FEDERAL ELECTIONS...

You know the Consent of the Governed is being denied, ignored and otherwise deemed irrelevant...

And if you are still trying to play the MoveOn game, then you are in denial of the things above that YOU ALREADY KNOW...

What would be better?

The No Confidence Movement needs you to take this resolution to your friends and neighbors until there are enough of you that your City Councilmembers can't ignore you...

When one community after another refuses to remain in denial, instead acknowledging there is no basis for confidence, then we will at last be able to assert our true collective power and authority by declaring the Consent of the Governed to be withdrawn...

When somebody tells you to be the change you want to see, it is not empty rhetoric...it is quite literally the only path to empowering We The People

Where are all the people?

What did they have in the 60s that got people marching in the streets, that we don't have now?

They had a unecessary war. We do too.

We had civil rights issues. We do too.

They had free sex and drugs. We don't.

Is that the only thing we're missing?



Where is everyone?

Where are all the students protesting the war in their universities?

The sit-ins, the protests, the boycotts.

Where is everyone?

People in this country are simply too pampered and myopic to care about anything that doesn't impact them directly

that was missing.

i certainly don't want to hope for a draft but if there is one I hope and pray that people start to rise up like they did in the 60s.

an army of corporate mercenaries augmented by robot soldiers is a nightmare I hope never sees the light of day.

did the Vietnam war go on before we starting seeing a lot of large protests?

(in the words of my mom) on the idiot box.

Americans are largely spineless and begging to be fascist led.

that I recall, was a draft. And live television coverage of police manhandling students who were "sitting in" at Sproul Hall. And of course, the National Guard gunning down 4 students at Kent State.

Before that, we had optimism. And more than decent public education. So we pretty much knew how to think.

journalism back then, not the trash we have now.

This is why some Dems have suggested we have one now. As long as someone else is doing the fighting and the dirty work, the rest of us don't give a hoot. We want to drive our SUVs regardless of how we get the fuel. We have students laden with debt who just want to get jobs and pay off their loans. They don't care about neoCons. We have a useless mass media that doesn't report the facts. But I think the lack of a draft is the key. I'm not in favor of one, but if everyone had a more or less equal chance of being called up, it would get a lot of folks' thinking. It may be coming, but Bush will give it some kind of Orwellian name like the Freedom Service which will fool some of us for a while. If the rich are somehow exempted, this will also delay the inevitable opposition. And of course, if we don't have the vote, that won't help either. But if there aren't enough of us willing to sacrifice ourselves for the neoCon agenda, it could have an impact. That's what they had in the 60s. Enlightened self-interest.

Think of the difference air conditioning made on our culture. We once were a social nation. We left our homes or sat on our front porches and left our windows and doors open in the warm weather.
Now we don't hear what goes on in the street in front of our homes. We don't speak to our neighbors daily. We hide behind locked doors because our streets aren't as safe. We no longer have our neighbors looking out for us.
Don't get me wrong. I don't want to give up my climate control, I just mention that it has changed our culture.

Both literally, and figuratively, it explains much.

It was the Perfect Storm for Organizing and Radical, Dissident Political Action
We were raised on the Holocaust, JFK was Wacked, the Civil Rights Movement made us realize the U.S. wasn't the land of the Free and Equal, and We were the Canon Fodder for an absurd War.
BUT- We had our own self contained communities- The College Campuses-
This was a pot of unlimited potential
We told ourselves that the Young Generation is the Conscience of the Country.
We were a Caucasian Middle Class Commuter College in L.A., Valley State. In one year we turned it into one of the top 5 most radical campuses in the country- we had some great riots
This generation has no conscience, is self absorbed and self centered, raised on instant self gratification and was told the '60's was just a bunch of drugged out hippies.
We fucking changed America.
Wait for the draft and then this young generation will have to face the ugly reality that they have to die for the BushReich
We just have to position ourselves to be in the right place to organize them.
We don't have the Campuses yet as organizing communities and we don't have communities to organize older, after college age adults.
But the Religious Taliban has their churches and their Religious School Systems (Madrasas)to organize and brainwash the Borg and they
have been very successful because they have a plan and they can execute that plan.
AS far as MoveOn goes,
I sent them an Organizing Plan in December. I never got a reply, but 2 or 3 of my Ideas were on their discussion list for the Nationwide Phone hook up.
It seems that everything they come up with involves giving them money and them running the show.
They have something which nobody else has, the largest database of Progressive People who are willing to actually do something.
With their Zip Code Organizer, they could easily organize people
throughout the U.S. on a regional/county basis. And we could eliminate our fragmented groups and make them cohesive.
I am trying to organize ALL the Progressive People in my county, and we could really use MoveOn's database. I could really get some shit done with that. I'm making real good progress here in assembling
support to fight the E-Machines in my county. Next week I hope to be able to post what I'm doing and we can use that for a Model elsewhere.
Also, MoveOn is a Well established Progressive Brand name , giving its members a separate Identity from the mainstream Dem Party, and could be used on a local basis as a Progressive magnet.
It's a shame that they do not maximize it.
I just filled out their on line form for Regional organizing, but it wouldn't submit.

because they have developed the grassroots following and command the dollars that can get these issues into the public consciousness. The people who donate WANT reform, it's for us to make sure they are not mislead any further.

We do NOT have to deal with MoveOn and Common Cause. If we are agreeing they are ineffectual false alternatives, insisting we must deal with them is another example of deep denial. We are so used to being lied to that we routinely lie to ourselves - THIS is our BIGGEST problem.

Perhaps the draft will be the bottoming out point we thought should have arrived several times already. I doubt anybody here would argue that we HAVE to wait for it in order to act.

A few differences I see between now and the 60's:

a) greater concentration of media ownership, limiting the exposure of true investigative journalism and in turn the awareness level of the public

b) greater concentration of federal power, including the beltway/industry revolving door that necessarily subjugates the pursuit of the greater good

c) bigger anvil hanging over our collective heads (fear from 9/11)

d) infinitely more shameful use of a) and b) to exploit c)

As much as we might all like to romanticize the resistance of the 60's, let's also remember that protesters didn't exactly stop the war on a dime, and they didn't cause a revolution leading to true democracy or any other genuine shift in the relationship of power. I'm not saying the 60's resistance was bad, but I am saying we will have to do a lot better now because our sense of past success is greatly exaggerated, our current challenges are bigger, and the stakes are infinitely higher (global warming and peak oil).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x331781
Please help keep it kicked.

someone tell MOVEON TO FRIGGIN get a clue about election reform. Receipts imply you walk out of the room with a receipt of your vote which is not only dangerous to the voter but means you didn't put it in the ballot box to be counted...

gary is right, MOVEON IS LOST, the email should have said, CLICK HERE TO CONTRIBUTE To states doing open records request, instead they opt for a pansy petition that is worded so badly it is not useful for anything..



MOVEON FOLKS.... READ THE DU now and then, you might learn something about election reform. None of the bills in congress gives these 3 things, which is REQUIRED for Georgia to restore honest elections..

1. Paper ballot as verified by citizen
2. Paper ballot as ballot of record
3. paper ballot counted election night by citizens!!! (secured by citizens from polling location to counting location by citizens, caveat cause this is really important in rural areas where sherrif transports the ballot box and have no always been so honest).

great quote:

"I can't change the outcome of the election, but we can find out what happened. If something went wrong, then someone should be held accountable. I just want to know -- did my vote count?"

keyword "accountable"

and I sure would like to see the data, and know which experts are going through them.

I hope it is not companies that test the machines and software for certification.

does anyone have more details on this case?

that is readily available to us ALL.

And that is to post to their forum.
http://www.actionforum.com/forum/?forum_id=266

(Note: if this link doesn't work, just go to their homepage and click on the "Speak out" link. Burning rubber here.)

Now, I'm not at all sure what's up with the forum. MoveON has been acting weird (sorry for the clumsy langue) ever since the election.

But, you can post there. Address your comments to Joan, Wes & Eli. Get in their faces. Maybe they'll snap out of it.

I helped put together a book event for them, and have a number for one of their mentors. I'll call him this afternoon (PST) and he will get back to me but it may be a day or so.

Share your frustration, have since 11/2

Beth

Apparently they could use just the sort of info that will be given out there.

Is anyone taping?

if they were there in person, they'd feel the energy more and it might make an impression.

If the organizers want to send an invitation, it couldn't hurt.

I got an email from them with their opinion.

Didn't find anything on their site.

Whaddya think?

Let's write up a rebuttal to their letter and gather sigs. We can do that. I'm multitasking badly today, but want to tell you, these people say they have a tiny staff.

Let's dazzle them with our organization. Who wants to write up the rebuttal?

http://guvwurld.blogspot.com/2004/11/no-confidence-resolution.html

No Confidence Resolution
(v5.2, last updated 2/13/05 5am)

WHEREAS private ownership of voting machines has inherent conflicts of interest, and has specifically led to partisan support;

and

WHEREAS most voting machines made by private companies do not provide a voter-verifiable paper ballot or a permanent paper record of votes;

and

WHEREAS no machine is infallible, and there is extensive documentation of thousands of so-called voting machine "glitches," including lost data, negative vote totals, tallies equaling more votes than there are registered voters, and persistent automatic vote swapping from a voter's chosen candidate to an opponent, with some of said "glitches" being severe enough to change an election's outcome;

and

WHEREAS data from the 2004 U.S. presidential election indicate an enormous probability of fraud including, but not limited to, a non-random pattern involving optical scan machines in several states tallying significantly more votes for one candidate than could be expected based on exit polls, voter registrations or even voter turnout;

and

WHEREAS conditions do not currently allow US federal elections to be accepted without question;

THEREFORE be it resolved that until:

1) all voting processes are owned and operated in the public domain, and
2) clean money laws keep all corporate funds out of campaign financing, and
3) any future voting conform to a uniform national standard and produce a verifiable paper ballot for every vote, and
4) all votes are cast on the same day, designated as a national holiday, with the exception of absentee ballots which will be granted to applicants meeting a narrow list of federally determined criteria, and
5) all votes are counted publicly and locally in the presence of citizen witnesses and credentialed members of the media, and
6) equal time provisions are observed by the media along with a measurable increase in local, public control of the airwaves, and
7) presidential debates contain a minimum of three candidates, and are run by a non-partisan commission comprised of representatives of publicly owned media outlets, and
8) instant runoff voting (see H.R. 5293) and proportional representation replace the winner-take-all system for federal elections;

There shall be no basis for confidence in the legitimacy of the results reported from future US federal elections;

Be it also resolved that fraudulent elections constitute denial of the Consent of the Governed, defined in the Declaration of Independence as the self-evident truth from which government derives just Power. This Council reserves the right to exercise remedies described therein.

(Note that this is written for consideration at the City Council level but could be brought to any group for endorsement, and any elected body for passage; the version in the GuvWurld blog is filled with links to supporting evidence.)

Then, let's get it signed & then, I'll email it to my contact.

What do you think?

that way, we have the rebuttal with the signatures attached, all ready to be emailed.

the problem is getting people to agree on the bills. we've got orgs like verified Voting, who are supposedly the experts, saying that Holt's bill is as good as gold. I don't think people on DU agree in general about the bills.

I know I myself have changed my opinion as I learn more, so it's tough. A few days ago posted the lnik to the Verified Voting article. Now I disagree with it.

maybe you could put together some wording that is general enough, to express our concern without causing people to argue about it :)

here's what I sent:

This petition is a joke. Getting a paper receipt is nothing more than a false panacea. It won't guard against e-fraud.

So what if you have your little piece of paper when the thieves will never allow a close enough election to warrant a recount?

PAPER ONLY. PUBLIC OVERSIGHT. OPEN VOTE COUNTING.

that's the ONLY acceptable solution!

can't let them get away with this sh*t again.If we would have had people arrested and carted off to jail in the last election theft,that would be one thing,but we couldn't even get them to come in for questioning.Paper ballots, Hand counted will prevent them from stealing in the first place. Ban the machine!

the point is to support bills which require a voter-verified paper ballots.

I would prefer paper-ballots-hand-counted,

but that isn't going to happen anytime soon.

http://www.moveonpac.org/repairthevote/

hand counted, I prefer it, I see that in this thread quite a few other people prefer it,why don't we get our own petition going.I know our petition would not be hard to understand,easy to read and right to the point.A five word petition,no more second guessing.
(Paper Ballots Hand Counted Petition). We can even throw in, Try Counting Out Vote's In secret Again.

If more voters sue their states to prove their vote was counted as cast, it could be helpful. I hope this gets some traction.

I know they may have some of the details wrong, but ultimately there will be one or two bills that are passed or rejected somewhere in Congress. It may in fact be OK to support them all. Conyers has co-sponsored Holt's bill for example. I don't subscribe to the view expressed by the PDA that support for Ensign's bill which provides for the VVPB, will automatically lead to the rest of the Republican agenda. Ultimately, the details will be worked out in committees anyway.

It is a daunting task though to undo the damage that has already been done by these machines and that yet to be done. The tabulators are the next hurdle after the VVPBs and MMRAs. GEMS seems to have no way to directly check that precinct totals match the reported county total. Or at least it's not obvious. This is what Bev Harris calls two sets of books, which unfortunately is about as clear as mud.

I want to review the GENS user manual but still haven't had the time. Did you know that it's GEMS programming that determines the area and layout of the touch screen ballots -- not the DRE machines themselves? And that's just Diebold. There are still some other vendors to look at. Random audits at the precinct level are fine but how does one reconcile this with the county totals in GEMS?

Sorry for this somewhat rambling post. I've been away for a while and I'm just getting back to this stuff.

Feel free to copy and paste it though.

around all this confusion. Paper.Ballots.Hand.Counted. In 2012 or 2016 if the e-voting companies can prove to computer scientist around the world that they can operate an honest election, with all the checks and balances then we the people will decide when and where they can test them in a real election.

post about what happened when he tried to get a copy of the Sequoia operator's manual?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss//duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=318785

But is it the current version?
Who knows?

Look here:
<http://www.equalccw.com/dieboldtestnotes.html>

which is post 11 above, if I'm not mistaken.

you end up with this



Which leaves holes in the system.

I am not happy with a printer being added to a system that can still be manipulated.

Electronics, Digitized Data, and Networks don't belong in United States Elections.


550, 553, IRV, VVPT, VVPB, or Whatever.

You all are making it too fscking complex.

I WILL SIMPLIFY IT.

GET RID OF THE GOD DAMN ELECTRICITY.

THEN VOTE!

THAT MEANS PAPER ONLY.

4) all votes are cast on the same day, designated as a national holiday, with the exception of absentee ballots which will be granted to applicants meeting a narrow list of federally determined criteria,

I think it's very perilous territory when you start dictating federal rules like this, especially ones that reduce state power over elections (where ordinary people can have more clout). For instance, in the last election I urged people to request an absentee ballot, so that we would have a paper record of some large portion of the vote for comparison purposes--especially in e-voting/no paper trail areas--and guess what? --It was that very paper record that permitted the studies of No. Carolina and Florida that showed huge discrepances in electronic voting vs. other voting methods (mainly absentee votes).

The Feds screwed us over totally with HAVA, last time around. What makes you think the BushCon Congress is going to fix this? What they will likely do is something ineffective or harmful that fattens the pocketbooks of Wally O'Dell and H.F. Ahmanson, and strengthens their stranglehold on our election system, like, for instance, RESTRICTING Absentee Ballot voting while failing to require a VVPB and open source code.

I don't know what the frigging hell to do about these Fed bills--but I'm so suspicious of Congress (and of some Democrats) that I hesitate to even endorse the Holt bill, or to give anyone the illusion that, a) that is going to fix things; and b) Congress isn't going to make things worse, in the end.

I think this has to be a state by state, county by county fight. That's where our democracy is going to live or die. It's doable at the state level. I don't think it is, at the Fed level.

You make great points in your post.

The Fed HAS been doing things and will do more. Civil Rights may be easier to come by/protect via the Fed. So we need to be aware and working this angle.

The State level has been producing a lot of news, too. Some good. Some bad. Machine purchasing (or not), Voter ID, etc. So you're right to emphasize the need for us to work the States.

If election reform efforts are ever to result in the establishment of a meaningful democracy where none currently exists, then * and Congress and the Dems will all have to be removed from the equation. It is their collective effort that has created our current situation and their continued pursuit of self interest over the greater good ensures any supposed reforms they propose will be a false alternative.

The No Confidence Resolution is meant to be embraced city by city until we have established enough unity to have a genuine peaceful revolution. Standards that then emerge would be the result of such communities working together. Can we get past the assumption that we will always be 50 United/Divided States? Bioregionalism is growing more necessary, even before we can see it as practical or viable.

Regardless of the particulars of the standards, the No Confidence Resolution is offered as somewhat of a template. To me, the eight points collectively represent what it would take for me to feel like a BASIS for confidence has been established (where none currently exists). From town to town these fine points can and will vary. What needs to stay the same are the two main frames: basis for confidence and consent of the governed. The resolution as a whole is a strategy more than anything else and the aim is to catalyze a domino effect (city after city) that will necessarily build to a tipping point (consent of the governed clearly withdrawn).

So, in summary, I don't count on * or Congress or Dems to change anything and instead count on the power of We The People as the only force capable of leading to true change. Please modify the resolution as you see fit and join with your friends and neighbors to call for its passage at your local city council. I look forward to charting your progress on the GuvWurld blog.

people who live in states like OH can do if everything is left up to the state. And yet, Georgia is getting somewhere and things are pretty bad there. And as far as the fed bills, the more I read of people like Herrin, the more I think there is no friggin way to make e-voting secure, no matter how many laws we have. I keep going back to Land Shark's premise: ordinary citizens should not have to consult computer experts to know if their vote is being counted or not! Dammit. Which means no computers, open source, disclosed, or not. YOu still can't see what is going on inside those boxes.

Since the No Confidence Resolution was first written last April, I have not encountered a single person who wants to make the argument that there IS a basis for confidence.

If the No Confidence Resolution merely said we have no confidence, there would be brainwashed apologists in denial who would simply stand pat and say they do have confidence.

The frame that wins forces them to account for a basis for confidence. Like I said, nobody even wants to try.

So we do it instead. We say look, the No Confidence Movement is a positive, optimistic, comprehensive platform of election reforms which benefits every voter equally, and which declares what it will take to create a new basis for confidence.

A lot of work has gone into honing this frame. Check out this recent op-ed written for mass consumption in the local daily paper of Eureka, CA. We need DU'ers to start sending stuff like this to their local papers.