MoveOn: "Kerry didn't get elected"

This email went out to millions. How can we set the folks at MoveOn straight? Does anyone have a connection at MoveOn, at least which by we could state our case?

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from MoveON:

Dear Leave No Voter Behind volunteer,

This past fall, we made history together. Now it's time to do it again.

Leave No Voter Behind didn't get John Kerry elected. But it did have a groundbreaking political impact in communities across the country. We brought many people into politics for the first time, and turned out half a million extra voters for Kerry in key areas – in three states, more than the margin Kerry won by. We've spent the last few months sifting through the data, talking to many of you, reading your comments, and sitting down with other grassroots groups to figure out how to take what we've learned and use it to turn the tide against the Republican leadership.

<blah blah blah.....>

least effective campaign in world history? The children as slaves one made no impact at all. They seemed afraid to actually confront chimp in any meaningful way.

in fact MoveOn ran a very effective campaign and it worked. the only problem was the election was stolen.

they should think about their wording,especially when they have so many people still trying to expose the election theft.People who are most likely members in their organization.

What happened in Ohio (for openers) Blackwell, especially tabulators, insufficient amounts of voting machines.

As some of you may recall, even Clinton told us to stop whinning?? --

Kerry didn't fight for himself and I believe there was damn good reasoning for making that decision.

Does Move-on and/or Kerry expect us to go thru another round of the swiftboat BS.??

Kerry actually said in an interview a few weeks back that he firmly believes it was the "last minute" Bin Laden tape that did him in?

There's just more to this 04 election then quite obviuosly the so-called msm refuse to investigate or report.

However, today it was reported that we can expect the price of a gallon of gas to rise .24 per gallon.

Somthing very bad is going down and Bush has really made the rest of the world pretty much despise Americans.

Kerry didn't get elected.

The Electoral College vote was certified by Congress, and it went to Bush.

Whether you believe it was by fair means or foul, the fact remains that Bush stood up on the steps of the Capitol and took the oath, not Kerry.

MoveOn merely spoke the truth.




The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

I'm not talking about who was put into office. I'm talking about who got more votes. I'm talking about who won the election in REALITY.

MoveOn's statement:

"Leave No Voter Behind didn't get John Kerry elected. "

is false. Their program accomplished its goal. Kerry got more votes, not Bush.

Making statements like this, and sending them to millions of readers helps perpetuate a lie. And it thwarts the effort to fix our democracy. We need organizations like this to join the fight and help fix our democracy. Part of it is public education and awareness. Making statemtents like this does not help. It only hurts.

but it is not what *MoveOn* is talking about.

MoveOn said, "Leave No Voter Behind didn't get John Kerry elected."

They spoke accurately, and truthfully.

The measure of "whether Kerry was elected" was the result of the Electoral College vote certification in Congress in January. It was NOT "who got more votes."

In reality (at least, in this reality), Bush was re-elected. Kerry was not elected.

You can still argue election fraud, even a level of fraud that might have changed the outcome, but still recognize the fact that Kerry was not elected to the Presidency.


The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

it's obvious that the electoral college put Bush in office. Does anyone deny that? why do you keep repeating that? I think we all know that.

my point is that their email that went out to millions of people served to perpetuate a lie.

the lie is that bush got more votes, and that their efforts to register voters and "get out the vote" failed.

the truth is that their efforts were very effective. next time around, they don't need to do a better job. they just need to fix the election system.

their email pointed out that their system failed. it didn't. our election system failed.

if they spend the next 4 years trying to do a better job next time, they will only fail again because it will be stolen again.

they need to use their million person email list to educate people about election problems so they can be fixed, not complain that their plan was ineffective. People did everything they could. If they are lulled into thinking it just wasn't good enough and the election was won fairly, believe me, they won't do it again next time. They'll just be disillusioned.

the people need to be educated about election theft and Moveon needs to help. that email did not help.

And this is their way of legitimizing the results.

sent to "feedback@moveon.org"

I have no idea if that's a valid email address or if anyone will read this:

Dear MoveOn,

Bush didn't win. Your efforts achieved their goals. Your last email perpetuates a lie. Please do not continue to perpetuate the lie of Bush's victory. Bush lost, Kerry won. The election was stolen. I can give you as much data and evidence as you want to convince you of this.

The bottom line is, you can fine tune all your programs, get more involvement, and do everything you can for next time but the election will just be stolen again, unless you make it your #1 priority to fix election fraud.

The bills in congress are not enough. They are all band-aids on a huge problem and they leave open HUGE holes for fraud.

Please join the growing community of concerned citizens who are starting the fight for election reform and election justice. It is the only way that the people can take back their government.

Please, I urge you, to stop sending out emails that admit defeat. This only serves to subvert our cause and calm the people. We need widespread awareness and involvement. I'm hoping that MoveOn will be a key player in this effort.

Thank you
Gary Beckwith

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the ELECTION JUSTICE CENTER
your home for updated information on the fight for democracy in America
http://election.solarbus.org
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If anyone has a functioning address for them, please let us know.

MoveOn is getting to be like electronic voting machines -- expensive, but with no meaningful output.

The feedback@moveon.org address gets bounced back.

Typical.

http://www.moveonpac.org/feedback/fb/

Contact MoveOn.org
Choose from one of the following:
Make a general comment or suggestion
Report a problem related to making a financial contribution
Report a problem with the website
Change your personal information or unsubscribe
Other question or problem

I haven't tried it, but hopefully it works. It was linked to this petition last week:
http://www.moveonpac.org/repairthevote/

"We've spent the last few months sifting through the data..." --MoveonOn

What data?

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Did they "sift through" the data analyzed by the following Ph.D.'s in statistics and mathematics who have cried foul on the 2004 election and called for investigations?

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Exit poll analysis: astronomical odds against Bush win

Dr. Steven Freeman: Professor, Center for Organizational Dynamics, Univ. of Penn.; Karel Steuer Chair for entrepreneurship, Univ. de San Andreas, Buenos Aires; Professor of Management, Central Amer. Inst. of Business Administration (INCAE),
http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/epdiscrep.htm
"The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepancy," and "Hypotheses for Explaining the Exit Poll-Official Count Discrepancy in the 2004 US Presidential Election"
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/1970

Dr. Ron Baiman: Economist/Statistician - senior research specialist, Institute of Government and Public Affairs at the University of Illinois at Chicago; teaches at the University of Chicago.
http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/997

Baiman: "I conclude that, based on the best exit sample data currently available, neither the national popular vote, or many of the certified state election results, are credible and should not be regarded as a true reflection of the intent of national electorate, or of many state voters, until a complete and thorough investigation…."

Dr. Webb Mealy: http://www.selftest.net/redshift.htm (Bush vote skewed to the Electoral Votes that were needed to win.)

Nine Ph.D's from leading universities say, 1) Kerry won the Exit Polls (by 3%); 2) the Exit polls were skewed to Bush, so Kerry's margin was likely even higher; 3) there is evidence of electronic fraud at the precinct level, and 4) call for investigation of the 2004 Election:

http://uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/USCountVotes_Re_Mitofsky-Edison.pdf

Josh Mitteldorf, Ph.D. - Temple University Statistics Department
Steven F. Freeman, PhD - Center for Organizational Dynamics, University of Pennsylvania
Brian Joiner, PhD - Prof. of Statistics and Director of Statistical Consulting (ret), University of Wisconsin
Frank Stenger, PhD in mathematics - School of Computing, University of Utah
Richard G. Sheehan, PhD - Department of Finance, University of Notre Dame
Elizabeth Liddle, MA - (UK) PhD candidate at the University of Nottingham
Paul F. Velleman, Ph.D. - Department of Statistical Sciences, Cornell University
Victoria Lovegren, Ph.D. - Department of Mathematics, Case Western Reserve University
Campbell B. Read, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus, Department of Statistical Science, Southern Methodist University
Kathy Dopp, MS in mathematics - USCountVotes, President
Also Peer Reviewed by USCountVotes’ core group of statisticians and independent reviewers.

Florida: 130,000 to 230,000 phantom votes for Bush--paper vs. electronic voting—calls for investigation:
http://ucdata.berkeley.edu
Report issued by Dr. Michael Haut, & UC Berkeley Quantitative Methods Research Team; Haut is a nationally-known expert on statistical methods and member of the National Academy of Sciences and the UC Berkeley Survey Research Center
Press release: http://www.commondreams.org/news2004/1118-14.htm

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Did they "sift through" the data at Democratic Underground?

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Democratic Underground (ignatzmouse):
(North Carolina: absentee ballot vs. electronic, inexplicable 9% edge to Bush in electronic:)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x45003
(also at:) http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/12/233831/06

Democratic Underground (TruthIsAll): "To believe Bush won, you have to believe…"

Part 1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1316010

Part 2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1358806

Part 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x197878

Democratic Underground (TruthIsAll): The Time Zone Discrepancy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x318693

In progress compilations of various articles and materials on 2004 Election Fraud:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x311105

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=304579

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Did they "sift through" this data?

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TV networks alteration of the Exit Polls to fit the "official tally" (& Zogby prediction of Kerry win):
http://www.exitpollz.org/

http://www.solarbus.org/election/archives.shtml

Jonathan Simon:http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00142.htm

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Did they "sift through" this information on the unreliability and insecurity of electronic voting and Bush partisans control of the vote count with secret source code?

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Johns Hopkins report on insecurity of electronic voting:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00196.htm#5

Easy demo of how insecure voting machines are:
http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm

"Myth Breakers: Facts About Electronic Elections" (2nd edition): www.votersunite.org

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Did they "sift through" the data on the egregious Voting Rights Act violations in Ohio and other states?

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Ohio vote suppression: http://www.bpac.info

Documentation of widespread machine fraud and dirty tricks in over 20 states: http://www.flcv.com/ussumall.html

57,000 machine malfunction/vote suppression complaints to Congress:
http://www.votersunite.org/article.asp?id=3961

"Kerry won – just count the votes at the back of the bus!" – by Greg Palast
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won.php

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I'm sorry, but I have no respect for this MoveOn statement or its appeal. They have become part of the problem.

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Edit: I just edited the above statement for emailing to MoveOn, and sent it to them. I added the following note--

I'm sorry, but I have no respect for this MoveOn statement or its appeal. You have become part of the problem.

And I want to repeat that I’m sorry to have to say this. I believe you have done great work in the past. I am convinced, on the basis of what I consider to be overwhelming evidence, that Kerry was in fact elected, and, if you are not willing to review that evidence, then I believe you to be unqualified to make judgments about Democratic and progressive priorities. The top priority must be to restore our right to vote. Without it, we are not a democracy, and efforts on other issues will be to no avail.

Signed

XXXX

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Further note: I've heard a lot of complaints about MoveOn--their completely ignoring the grass roots on the priority of election fraud/election reform, their failure to respond to communications, and their collecting money as a grass roots organization but not being one themselves. They are very similar to the Democratic Party in that respect. I find their method of operation extremely put-offish, and they are so wrong on the election fraud/reform issue that really are, indeed, now part of the problem.

I hope that will change--as I hope the Democratic Party itself will wake up, and be able to cleanse itself of corporate collusion and corruption, and policies contrary to the majority will of the people, such as the Iraq war. On the election system, they have failed us catastrophically, and we need to understand why, and we need to fix this, within the party and within the country.

created by election theft.

Won't do it. Makes no sense.

Good compendium of resources there; thanks for putting it on one page.

:thumbsup:

Despite the fact that Moveon's house parties asking what was the most critical thing to next address, despite the majority of suggestions on the input site talk about the crisis in our electoral process, they've done nothing.

I'm afraid their leadership is with a whole list of former democrat leaders who still don't get it: Molly Ivins, Jon Stewart, Michael Moore, John Kerry, Al Franken.

I keep wondering why?

The number one reason they types usually offer is the supposedly huge margin by which Bush allegedly won. They think it would take a conspiracy of too many people to pull this off. They fail to realize, as Avi Rubin said, theft has gone from retail to wholesale. One no longer has to go to each site--right now a single software programmer could write an algorithm that could steal 100 votes as easily as a million.

They're is gap in public's comprehension of what "advantages" e-voting really offers.

got giped of votes by the "swift boat veterans for truth" & dirty tricks. Sure there likely was some voter intimidation. Kerry didn't get the majority. It will not change. Get with the 4 years that Bush will be in power. You have a long, hard slog in front of you. You have much hard work to do if you want to make sure they do not steal the next election with their propaganda.

They are creeps. They are scary. It makes you feel better to have hope that their is a way to make them all disappear if you could only find the proof in a voting machine souped up. That is a sexy & easy way of not dealing with the truth. The truth is that monsters are in power and they manipulate and are opportunists and will break any rule to get & keep power. They are destroying your country and you don't want to deal with the fact you will have to put up with them for 4 years.

The reality is that you have to put up with the monsters for 4 more years. Kerry lost. And unless you deal with the loss and grieve it and accept your anger and the fact that your country could be so stupid and smart people around you could be so easily led ... you will not be any help to the people trying to fight Bush and the ways in which he wants to (or will let) your country be destroyed.

Kerry lost!

On other sites the only people with the conspiracy theories are considered as bad as freepers and are kicked off. Do you want that to happen here? Cause that is what other Democratic sites have done to keep the sad ones who cannot get out of denial from infected each other again and again.

Your president is a mental deviant, a sociopath (or his friends are, or are acting like it). It is terrible. They also won the election. That is a terrible thing.

the election wasn't rigged. Yes we know we have to put up with these monsters but it is vital that we shut the door to this sort of election engineering for the next round of elections. If the Democratic Party wants us to shut up and go away because we're embarassing them, well they can shit in one hand and want in the other. Let's see which one fills up faster. I personally don't give a rats ass whose elected or who isn't. What I care about is a legal representation of the will of the people. That was not what happened on November 2nd. Who cares that he won, that's not the point. The point is he cheated to win and we have to find out how. If we have to vet every insane conspiracy theory to find the truth, so be it. The party can go get bent. We are Americans first and foremost. Simply because we believe in the Democratic principles is irrelevant to our inquiry.

We take the fight to what we know to be true.

You don't have to believe it but you'll never convince me otherwise. I have looked at the evidence and it is clear and convincing. You can say he won fair and square and you can claim that this is sour grapes all you like but I don't care. The election was rigged. The evidence is clear and credible if you take the time to "read" it. Why on earth would Barbara Boxer stand up and cry foul on the floor of the senate if there was no credible proof? No credible evidence, my ass. Read John Conyers report on "What went wrong in Ohio". I guess that's not credible either. Go sell complacency somewhere else, I'm not buying it.

veterans for the truth'. Yes they did steal the election. They are monsters. They are sociopaths & liars. They are dangerous. They are also too sophisticated to do it in a way that would leave a paper trail. Manipulating the emotions of people is just as effective as messing with voting machines...and it leaves no fingerprints.

So move on. We have to be ready to fight for electoral reform & transparency & to make sure they do not get control over the emotions of 51% the next election. That is going to be long, hard & slow work.

So now Karl Rove is so diabolical he has the ability to brainwash our country? That's rich.

They manipulated numbers and we aren't allowed access to the machines to find out how. We aren't allowed to hold hearings or question officials. We aren't allowed to reform our election procedures or install machines that have a paper trail.

Yes, 48% of the people voted for Bush. For this, Karl Rove is owed a lot of credit. What concerns me is the 4% that just popped up out of thin air. Under your scenario, we don't actually need election reform since he won it fair and square. Manipulating emotions isn't illegal, honey, flipping votes from one person to the other is.

So we have to be fight now for accountability and transparancy to make sure the next time some A-hole tries this we can spot it and stop it.

credit for running the campaign & winning - means? He invented the perpetual campaign (also a sociopathic tool along with "one set of rules for the WH & their ilk to follow & one set of rules for their opposition to follow"). What do you think it means when Bush WH is compared to Hitler's?

You must be one of them - eh? Come on - you can tell me...;-)

deleted

election by bending the rules of EVERYTHING. And that is what needs looking into ... not just election transparency. EVERYTHING IS BEING USED TO FURTHER THEIR POLITICAL ENDS and we better study and come up with a strategy to stop them because they follow no code of ethics or decency.

To say the election stealing had to happen specifically at the location of election machines when there is no specific evidence is being to microscopic. You need to step back.

Your feelings are just like mine. Just take a step back and look at the forest for the trees. This is where the fight is - in all the areas where we know ther rules have been bent or misused. Take a step back.

...in Comment #7 above. "Proof" of election fraud isn't the issue. The election system itself was a fraud going in. We have a non-transparent election system which produced highly suspicious results--so suspicious that a long list of Ph.D's gives odds of 1 in ten million against the Bush win, and have called for investigations.

There is absolutely no way to fight Bush and BushCons until we have an election system that we can trust. And KNOWING that the election SYSTEM is fraudulent, and that it produced a HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS RESULT, is vital to understanding HOW to gain power back for majority will of the country to be done.

You merely rail against Bush as "a mental deviant" and "a sociopath," and then you try to demean those of us here who DO read these reports, and are learning what needs to be done, as "conspiracy theorists"? So, applegrove, why should I care what you think? And why should I care what "other Democratic sites" think? If you and they will not review the facts, then I think it is you and they who are being emotional, and who are "infecting" others with a very dangerous and corrupting form of anti-intellectualism.

What you are saying is that power is the only reality. Bush won. Kerry lost. That is a function of power--not facts, not votes, not real numbers.

And what I'm saying, and what all of those Ph.D.'s in statistics and mathematics above are saying, and what the DUer's at this web site who have studied these reports, and who have developed our own information and analyses as well, are saying, is that IT DOES MATTER who REALLY WON this election--that is, it DOES MATTER what the will of the people IS--that we MUST UNDERSTAND how the will of the people was thwarted, and FIX THIS ELECTION SYSTEM so that we can disempower the "mental deviant/sociopath" and his cronies, and repair some of the damage they have done.

You are the one who is denying reality. You are the one who is spreading negativism and despair. You want us to bow down and suffer. That is all you have to say--resign yourselves to suffering from the powerful. What is your solution to us having this "sociopath" as president? You have none! Whereas we here are working on a practical, realistic solution, based on our study of the facts and our conclusions about what happened.

It is the Bush Cartel's method to frighten people, and to disempower people and make them feel isolated and panicked. You sound just like them--getting all your emotional digs in, and trying to inspire fear, panic and despair. We will not bow down to that. Nor will we any longer tolerate the DEMOCRATS who have colluded in that fear mongering, who support unjust war, and who sat back and PERMITTED this fraudulent election SYSTEM to be put into place.

It is no wonder that the propaganda of the Democratic leadership who colluded in this disaster has "infected" the more weak-minded Democratic blogs. The Democratic leaders, who led us down this garden path of secret source code and unauditable elections, have much to hide. I have no reason to credit their views.

have not looked into it but I wholeheartedly agree that voter intimidation took place, and many tricks. These people have no morals. I agree that a new election act is needed and fast. One that makes for standards and strict guidelines. One that does not let the 'rule breakers' walk right through the meaning of the law.
I agree in so many ways.

I just think it is unhealthy and very hurtful to people to be mired in hopes that this nightmare will be turned around by a little piece of evidence. The nightmare is here. Bush won the election. We have work to do if we do not want to see them win again.

Election Act is one thing.

Encouraging each other to believe 'it isn't over' is not helpfull.

Studying up on economics and world trade and 19th Century history is good.

Learning how to discern propaganda is good.

IMHO there are many things to do and think that will build a better future. Believing 'it isn't over' is not a building thing. It is taking the easy way out and hoping for fairy dust. And on many other sites they do ban the Conspiracy Theorists (and I do not know if diebold would qualify as a conspiracy theory) because they hurt the mental health of the vulnerable by keeping them in denial. Bush won. Bush is a freak.

On this we will have to disagree.

and that's the kind of thinking that insisted that, because Kerry had "conceded" in Ohio on November 3, he had lost the election. In the same statement where the media said he "conceded", he also said, "be sure to count all the votes though" which greatly watered down any concession statement. In the end, though, whether Kerry conceded or not is irrelevant. What counts is how the votes actually fell.
As far as realism: if enough stats are found IN the computers by statisticians working with all this data, it would justify a computer audit of the entire state of Ohio by an organization like blackboxvoting.org.
No one has ever computer audited an entire state's election results before. Blackboxvoting.org audited a couple of counties in Florida in 2002. The legal ramifications are, therefore, unclear.
First, we have to produce the statistical data sufficient in all counties to suggest that such an audit is justifiable to undertake, in the sense that it is likely enough to produce a result that would turn around the statewide 2004 Presidential election results in Ohio.
When and if that is done, then we can look at whether Kerry won or lost the 2004 Presidential election. Because it will mean further legal action, of a nature never before undertaken.
This is a 21st century election. Computers were a factor, perhaps for the first time. We have to hear from the computers, before we can determine how the votes actually fell.

needs to built into the system just like there is with fiat money. We trust cash so it works.

That is an important reason for electoral reform and transparency laws. And if the Repukes try and block that - well they are purposely trying to run down, mentally knot-tie and destroy American confidence in their democracy. And you make them pay for not supporting a law. After all - who really can argue with more clarity and trust.

MoveOn DIDN'T get John Kerry elected. They were only a PART of it.

That was in a dimension where every vote was counted, and voters weren't suppressed, where all those tabulators didn't exist. Here in bushworld, we're dealing with a different reality, the one that was "created" for us.

MoveOn can keep moving on, AFAIC. I'll spend my time and money on organizations that have more spine and more guts.

it's like we were in the twilight zone :scared:

when the repug pundits were lumping them with the Swifties during the 527 debates, I had hoped MoveOn would come out swinging, but they didn't. RW strategy clearly won on points by making everybody feel that "ya shut one down, ya hafta shut them all down".

And it's eerily familiar with the Gannon thing...

It's a similar off-the-hook strategy to earlier rightwing refrains, "They all do it" and "Everybody does it" (attributed to Democrats but only ever uttered by REPUBLICANS!).

W/ regard to Gannon -- did you listen to Laura Ingraham's rationalisation of her appearance at a John Thune rally -- the one KO referenced when he was talking about "non-traditional media's" effect on politics?

KO had described the problem to the Washington Post's Dana Milbank thusly (my transcription):

"... a partisan website needs damaging articles about the opposition, so it links to somebody whose organization uses the word 'news' and says 'Look! Real news articles!' -- irrespective of which party or who's being attacked or what the context is -- is this NOT the journalistic equivalent of money laundering?" -(LISTEN at olbermannatch.com)

To which Ms Ingraham (who has in the past expressed admiration for KO's evenhandedness) responded by feigning confusion regarding how her appearance at the SD rally, Gannon pretending to be a "journalist" campaign websites could link to, and Armstrong Wms. getting paid by the administration to praise its policies, have all contributed to the erosion of journalistic integrity.

She took umbrage at the money laundering analogy by exclaiming, "I didn't get any money for that! (campaigning for Thune)." But of course, that's not a point anyone was making.

Same with Armstrong Wms' problem: she went on and on about how NOOOOOO Democrats complain when former Democratic operatives like Bill Moyers or Paul Begala express liberal opinions on talk shows (avoiding, of course, the fact that neither Moyers nor Begala is known to have accepted money from a Democratic administration to flack ITS policies!).

:nuke:

To me it seems they want to "Move-on" and get the bucks rolling in before all investigative information is tallied and clearly put into perspective for the world to finally see -- screw the big 3 media's -- I'm getting more collective reporting from the Blogeshere!

Attacking it used to be a GOP talking point. Guess it took hold, huh?

All of us together DID.