How is everyone doing in here?

Mastters have carried me to other issues in addition to this, but a lot of my heart is still here and I am still shaking the tree as best I can. I wanted to thank you all again for your work, your investigation, and your tireless spirit.

Hang in there. We are going to fix our elections. Failure is simply not an option.

:thumbsup:

tree! Lots of ripe fruit? Be careful of the bees ;-)

Is being made against diebold entrenchment.

Yes, there's hope.

-Hoot

...gaining visibility for the issues.

And, thank you, once again for opening so much of your intellect and spirit to the "Iraq catastrophe" -- urging folk to go beyond "get out; we can't just leave" argument cycle that yields only more death and destruction.

Peace.

The story of election fraud in Ohio and elsewhere was blackedout by MSM and concerned citizens were demonized on editorial pages. The general public remained in a daze of compliant complicity. As did Congress. But for two women. Heroes.

Will the story of election fraud be mainstreamed?

If there were verifiable instances in one or more states of election fraud, why did every (?) group investigating (and St. Boxer herself) put forward the disclaimer "not that we expect it to change the outcome"?

Given the pre-existing epidemic level of voter apathy (especially amongst the well informed and the young) and the evidence that this was our second stolen presidential election in recent memory, how do we convince people to believe there will be a "next time"?

:smoke:

Given the dangers and damage perpetrated by the current administration, why is election fraud in 2004 such a non-starter for discussion among progressive activists? Why no urgency?

...among progressive activists? Why no urgency?" -- omega minimo

Well, I think that election fraud IS a topic of discussion among SOME progressive activists--but I know what you mean: There is a perception that it isn't. But possibly we're all too influenced by what the media creates as reality--even leftist media. I think election fraud is probably much more of a topic of discussion than anyone realizes. Certainly the PRESUMPTION of election fraud is--whether it's being talked about or not--in some cases, a silent, sullen, angry, depressed realization.

As for the news monopoly picture of what progressive activists are talking about--how to bend over and get whipped by BushCon fascists, how to become more rightwing, how to "respond" to Bush's "mandate": although it is wholly manipulated, we can't dismiss it as an influence on what progressives think of THEMSELVES. They tell us that no one is talking about election fraud--or rather, they create that as the reality by the big black hole that election fraud has become (non-starter, to the news monopolies). And we believe them, or some part of us believes them. (Many of us are plugged into their delusion, despite ourselves.)

And in LEFTIST media there is a split--between the Al Franken types who take their cue from the DNC (AND the internationalist leftists, like Amy Goodman, for whom fascist rule in the US is a given, and election fraud is just a symptom, so they don't much talk about it), on the one hand--and Randi Rhodes types on the other, who still believe in the Constitution, and expect things to be fair and just, and when they aren't, get really mad.

In my experience, the Randi Rhodes types tend to be far more intellectually rigorous than the Al Franken types. In fact, my internal phrase for Al Franken, whenever I think of him, is "the flabby brained one."

But, actually, I think the problem with the Al Franken types is far more serious than an inability to absorb facts and to think them through. The problem is who they're getting their information and opinions from and who they are allied with: the Democratic Party leaders who, a) support war in the Mideast, and b) permitted an egregiously fraudulent election SYSTEM--with BushCon electronic voting machine companies counting all our votes in SECRET (or not counting them)--with not a whisper of objection.

There is a parallel between what happened with the Democratic leadership on the Iraq war and on 2004 election fraud.

In the lead-up to the Iraq war--after Paul Wellstone was killed, and in the general time period of the anthrax attacks on Democratic Congressmen--the true facts about Iraq WMDs and Iraq and 9/11 were actually quite well known. The UN weapons inspectors knew them. The US and British intelligence communities knew them. France knew them. Germany knew them. Russia knew them. China knew them. Indeed, the entire world--except for the US news monopolies and the general American public--knew that Saddam had no WMDs and had nothing to do with 9/11.

And all of these entities--within and outside of the US--also knew that Saddam was a US client (personally visited by Rumsfeld who gave the nod to chemical weapons, supplied by US companies, being used against the Iranians in the Iraq-Iran war, in the '80s), that Iraq was decimated by the first Persian Gulf war, and that UN weapons inspectors had completed the task, and had utterly crippled any ability of Iraq to cause trouble anywhere. Furthermore, Saddam was not about to let Iraq become a hotbed of Islamic terrorism--he was a secularist and a dictator. Iraq was the least likely place in the Islamic world to have any Al Q activity.

So when this matter--the Iraq war resolution--came before Congress, the Democratic Senators and House members who claimed not to know these facts were just lying. (I won't even bother to discuss the Republicans--I'm not sure they know what lying is.)

Of those who voted for it, some were afraid--not of Iraq, but of the Bush Cartel (Wellstone; anthrax). Others were playing politics with it, hedging their bets. If the country went into war fever, they didn't want to be left out. They feared the Bush Cartel using it against them. They CLAIMED to be concerned about Iraq (i.e, WMDs)--but weren't really (they knew it was all shuckin jive). They made speeches saying that Bush should exhaust diplomacy and do the war through the UN, but failed to include sufficient language in the resolution to force him to do that, and voted to give Bush the power to invade with no controls. They thus violated the Constitution, as Senator Byrd has repeatedly pointed out, to no avail--Congress alone has the power to declare war.

After violating the Constitution, they then started funding billions and billions and billions of essentially unmonitored taxpayers' money into the pockets of Halliburton and all the other military-industrial pigs.

124 Democrats and 1 Independent opposed the Iraq war resolution. Everybody else-Dems and Repubs--voted for it.

This highly corrupt, highly compromised, FALSE position (the position that there was justification to invade Iraq, and reason to be very fearful of Iraq) fanned out from these highly corrupt, highly compromised, FALSE-FACED Democratic leaders to the progressive community at large. And it took about a year--given US news monopoly collusion--to completely expose it. (And Fox News and Clear Channel were not really the worst of it--the worst of it was the New York Times, the nation's newspaper of record. The NYT's later apology to its readers for the lies it told about Iraq is particularly galling, given what they had done. But it is indicative of just how false their coverage was--it compromised their news organization so badly, in the eyes of progressive New Yorkers and other readers, that they HAD to apologize or permanently lose all credibility.)

By that time, Iraq had been invaded, 100,000-plus innocent people had been slaughtered by US bombs (according to the British doctors' report), and that was only just the beginning of the carnage. Mission accomplished. The US was now committed to a full scale military presence in the Middle East.

In the lead-up to the 2004 presidential election, during the theft of the election itself, and during the aftermath, the very same dynamic occurred. Misinformation, disinformation, no information (information black holed) and outright lying from the Democratic leadership, fanning out to the progressive community, and propagated by the news monopolies.

(Definition of "progressive community": I actually believe that this is a very progressive country. I think Americans on the whole are justice-loving and generous, and very tolerant. It is a complete news monopoly myth that Americans are tending to the right--toward some weird combination of gentle Jesus and injustice, greed, intolerance and murderousness. That is not my experience of Americans--and opinion polls strongly support me on this. There is overwhelming evidence that most Americans dislike and disagree with Bush comprehensively--on both domestic and foreign policy. So, by "progressive community" I mean "activist progressive community"--those who speak and organize and pressure politicians and educate the public. The "activist progressive community" in turn provides information to--and influences the opinion of--the general population of our progressive country.)

As the progressive community got wise to the Iraq war scam (and horror)--and lacking Paul Wellstone as a candidate (Wellstone would have been the obvious choice)--it began to organize an antiwar campaign for the presidential election in 2004, and soon Howard Dean emerged as the strongest advocate of that position. When the news monopolies (probably with the collusion of the DNC) killed his candidacy (via the doctored "scream" video clip), and the DNC forced a pro-war candidate upon the party (Kerry), the progressive community then made a choice: Should it put aside this difference about the war to oust the Bush Cartel, or not? And it decided that ousting the Bush Cartel had to be the priority.

Thus, an amazing coalition occurred--unprecedented, really, in the last 50 years--of all the progressive grass roots groups in the country and the despised, compromised, corrupt DNC. (The "Anybody but Bush" coalition).

However, what that progressive community DIDN'T know--or didn't fully realize--is that the Democratic leadership had ALREADY failed them, catastrophically, on the HAVA bill--the legislation to "fix" the election problems of 2000 (which had installed Bush in the White House illegitimately)--which required computerization of the voting system, but failed to require essential items like a paper trail, and FURTHERMORE, permitted companies whose CEOs were major Bush supporters to gain control of that system and to use SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code in their electronic voting machines and central electronic vote tabulators.

A small tussle occurred in Congress over the provisions of HAVA. Good Democrats tried to get a paper trail, for instance. They were strong-armed by Tom Delay. End of story.

When this inherently, egregiously fraudulent election SYSTEM was put into place, for 2004, the Democratic leadership should have screamed bloody murder. At the very least, it should have been a campaign issue.

Total silence. Not a word of objection.

Once again, as with the Iraq war, the Democratic leadership has FEIGNED ignorance. Their reaction to the mountain of evidence that this fraudulent election SYSTEM produced a fraudulent RESULT is a blank stare. Silence. Change the subject. And even, "Bush won."

As if they didn't know. (I don't buy it. It's their JOB to know how votes are counted.)

And, once again, this attitude fanned out into the progressive community, and from the progressive community into the country and its mostly progressive population. And it has created a kind of schizophrenia: most people in their gut know that the country didn't vote for Bush, and strongly suspect fraud, but since the Dem leaders won't tell them the truth--that they FAILED to achieve an honest election system--and that Kerry actually won--people bury this doubt. What can they do about it, if the Democrats won't fight?

Do the Dem leaders know Kerry won? I'm pretty convinced that they do, and that they knew this on election night, and possibly lied to Kerry. The numbers are just stunning--for instance, a Dem blowout success in new voter registration, Dems 57% to Repubs 41%. And that's just ONE of the numbers and other indicators--all of which point to a Kerry win, and some of which point to a Kerry landslide. And today we have about 60% of Americans in stark disagreement with Bush on virtually every one of his policies--domestic and foreign--in opinion polls; and continued miserable Bush approval ratings.

Now...now...think about election night. They knew Kerry was winning. They knew he had won. Everything point to this. All day long the exit polls said Kerry had won--until they were switched off late in the day, and CHANGED to reflect the OFFICIAL TALLY coming from BushCon-controlled electronic vote tabulators.

So Kerry won. But there is no "proof." Why is there no "proof"? Because DEMOCRATIC PARTY LEADERS permitted a fraudulent election SYSTEM to be put into place without objection! An election system with NO PAPER TRAIL. An election system WITH SECRET SOURCE CODE. An election system CONTROLLED BY Bush partisans. And THAT was their argument, re Ohio--that Kerry had lost the popular vote, and if he hadn't, there was NO PROOF. Proof aplenty there was, at that moment, of Ohio election fraud--innumerable violations of the Voting Rights Act--but they just walked right over that, in their rush to be defeated.

I repeat: What is the "proof" that Kerry lost the popular vote--as opposed to the overwhelming circumstantial evidence (new Dem voter registration, the exit polls, etc.) that he won it? The "proof" is to be found in several central electronic vote tabulators run on secret, proprietary programming code, owned and controlled by Bush partisans. That is the proof that Bush won and Kerry lost. There is no other.

These tabulation results have not been verified by ANYONE. (And much of it CANNOT be verified.) As for the Electoral Vote--that is a matter of Sec's of State "certifying" the "results" and thus awarding the power to vote Bush in to the state's Republican Electors. These so-called "certified results" come right from the BushCon-controlled central vote tabulators. There is almost zero verification of these results at the precinct level. And given such a fraud-prone system, the ONLY verification tool we have is the exit polls, and they say Kerry won!

(We could go back now, to the precinct level, and recount--which is what UScountvotes.org intends to do--but it is extremely laborious and time-consuming. And in about a third of the country, "recount" is meaningless, because they have no paper ballots to recount and compare to the electronic tally, although a comparison of vote totals and signed-in voters and other such indirect evidence might help.)

As with Iraq, it's going to take some time for the falsehood of this election to be fully exposed, and for the progressive community to pick itself up, repair its broken bones, and implement a solution. (--a state by state, county by county, grass roots, knock-down, drag-out struggle over election reform, an incremental battle--since Congress isn't going to do a goddamned thing about it, surprise, surprise).

Dean might help. On the other hand, it may be that he is just being watched (as DNC chair). We'll see.

But I think we have to ask ourselves...

1. What are we going to DO with our vote, if we ever get it restored?

Are we going to continue to put up with this bullshit from corrupt Democratic Party leaders? People who are living in a bubble of money and power, apart from the rest of us? People who falsely represent themselves as being the champions of the grass roots and the oppressed and the exploited and the war-weary? People who are addicted to controlling, and doling out, billions of dollars that are not theirs, and to pocketing some of it, one way or another--whether it's the HAVA billions, or the Halliburton billions, or the consultancies, board memberships or outright jobs that are doled out in association with this power? People who support war in the Middle East, and in particular, a huge US military presence surrounding Israel, but lie to us about their reasons? People who have bought into a US economy based on endless warfare and arms dealing and skullduggery of the most heinous kind?

These are the REASONS they didn't warn us about the fraudulent election SYSTEM, and won't admit its fraudulent result; and why they gave us a line of bull about Iraq, and wouldn't permit an antiwar candidate to be nominated. Corruption. Bubble living. Addiction to power. And fear (some of them).

If we can restore our right to vote, despite them--and even in the face of their opposition (see Question #2 below)--will we be given the same limited choices? Hillary Clinton, who voted for the Iraq war? Diane Feinstein, who voted for the Iraq war and might as well be a Republican? Barack Obama, who has played everything right down the middle (for instance, voted for Condi Rice but against Alberto Gonzales)? Kerry or Edwards, both of whom voted for the war (and are associated with the concession--though I think they shouldn't bear the whole blame for it, and maybe even none of the blame)?

Obviously, we are going to have to vote for people who refused to defend us on Jan. 6--because that's most of the Democrats in federal office. How far are we going to be forced to compromise this time? When will we ever have a candidate who represents the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS?

And, given how far the BushCons have taken their extremist policies, are we going to be able to elect a President who will undo it all, and move forward with progressive initiatives, or will we have to settle for a candidate dictated by corporate donors--who just pulls us back a little bit from fascist rule?

2. What are we going to do about Democratic Party leaders' complicity in the fraudulent voting system?

The current California situation has been a real eye opener for me--with DEMOCRATS being the enemy, DEMOCRATS advocating for paperless Diebold voting machines, DEMOCRATS witch-hunting the best Secretary of State in the nation, who fought Diebold and stood up for the voters--and driving him from office. DEMOCRATS.

What the hell is going on here? And what does it tell us about what's happened nationally--looking back a few steps, to the Iraq war resolution, to Democrats giving Bush (of all people!) carte blanche in Iraq; and to HAVA, and the Dem leadership silence about it?

"Houston, we have a problem!"

------

Note: These problems are not insoluble--as we demonstrated with Apollo 13. Americans have a wonderful "can do" attitude, and when we work together as a team--something that is far more characteristic of Americans and of humanity in general than anyone recognizes--we can do the impossible. BUT--as those Apollo engineers knew--you MUST be working from a basis of reality and fact. And the fact is that some of the Democratic Party leadership is a real big obstacle to election reform, as well as to a just and peaceful society. And we're not going to be able to solve the fundamental problem of fraudulent elections without a real, hard, cold-eyed look at the entire corrupt, complicitous system that permitted the Bush Cartel to take over our government.

But even so, it's a PRACTICAL problem--election reform. A solveable problem. Almost a mechanichal problem. It is not a difficult problem, really. Most people would agree that we should have honest elections. Transparency is the key. And to get it done, we need to think in a very practical, strategic way; take our allies where we can get them; plug away at it state by state; build upon incremental victories; get as much transparency as possible in any given situation; stay focused. Do it!

pressures of the party, but will stay loyal to his base who truly want fair honest elections and transparency in public office.

It is truly an uphill battle, especially if you believe that we ar fighting a bi partisan battle. I wondered how many of the dems who voted with the repugs on the bankruptsy bill were actually voting for their own careers and not what is best for the country. We simply need to get all corporate money out of influence. Wish I had an answer.

"We simply need to get all corporate money out of influence." --mod mom

Before the election, I was thinking of a Constitutional amendment banning all private money in political campaigns. Period. Fini. Enough is enough!

Now come to find out we have CORPORATIONS not just running our elections, but running them on secret source code with no paper trail.

Jeez.

But I think restoring our right to vote is simpler and more doable than cleansing this utterly filthy political system of money influence. In any case, we can't do much about the latter until we accomplish the former.

I just had an interesting conversation with someone who hadn't followed any post-election developments (and I hadn't seen him in a long time). He wondered (to me) whether or not there had been election fraud. He had this uneasy feeling that Bush couldn't have been elected, and things were not right--but since there was nothing in the news about it, he wasn't sure what to think. All I had to tell him was who counted the votes, and how--and about the true exit poll results (not the one on CNN) and he immediately understood that election fraud had occurred. Ah, he said, that explains it! But he was still bothered by the lack of news monopoly news. (He's one of the addicted, I guess.) He kept asking for assurances that this was going to break into the news soon.

This is what I mean about the parallel to the Iraq war lies. It's going to take TIME--for people like this to start questioning, and then looking for info. I think there are millions of people like this, who feel very uneasy--but don't have easy access to the internet, or don't use it the way we do (go searching for alternative news).

I find it mind-boggling that anyone with any brains could have accepted the last election. (This was not a stupid person.) We have to realize that it's not so much acceptance as it is a sort of passivity and remoteness. Even if their gut and all other info tells them that Bush is not the legitimate president, and that something is very wrong, if they can't get those feelings VERIFIED in any way by their news sources, then they don't trust them, that is, they don't trust themselves. We know the reason--the news monopolies and the Dem leaders' silence. What we have going for us is the truth. Plain and simple. The truth. And when hear it, they know it.

TURNER (to Higgins): Do we have plans to invade the Middle East?
HIGGINS: Are you crazy?
TURNER: Am I?
HIGGINS: Look, Turner...
TURNER: DO WE HAVE PLANS?
HIGGINS: No. Absolutely not. (pauses) We have games. That's all. We play games. 'What if?' 'How many men?' 'What would it take?' 'Is there a cheaper way of destablizing the regime (quieter) That's what we are paid to do. ....
TURNER: Jesus - What is it with you people? You think not getting caught in a lie is the same as telling the truth.
HIGGINS: It's simple economics, Turner. There's no argument. Oil now, 10 or 15 years it'll be food, or plutonium. Maybe sooner than that. What do you think the people will want us to do then?
TURNER: Ask them!
HIGGINS: Now?
HIGGINS: Uh-Uh. Ask them when they're running out. When it's cold at home and the engines stop and people that have never done without go hungry! They won't want us to ask...
(quiet savagery) They'll want us to GET it for them."

Taped it right off my Tee Vee back when they used to show real movies on there. And how about that NY Times scene at the end? They got that wrong, didn't they?

and Decent Candidates who are not owned by the war machine.

but will come back later. Love "the flabby brained one."

If we don't uphold our OWNERSHIP of the airwaves(FCC)!!! then the masses are so easily Victimized, it is all our own fault for being LAZY on these matters. We can control info if we actually wanted to. IT was done before with a lantern and a horse!

I think so many people can't really or don't really want to talk about it because it means that our democracy is corrupted to the core, and that is a frightening thing for all of us. There are some who can stare at the flame like we can and hope to put it out, but there are many who are frightened that the house is on fire.

Perhaps the essence is not to make them know what happened- they are too afraid to look and see. Perhaps the key is to move strongly to correction and push for corrective action. Sometimes with folks who cannot look at the fire, they can still appreciate the actions that prevent the fire.

flames. Two presidential elections and countless other elections have been stolen by corrupt unethical thugs. I really thought the dems, moveon, true majority and others, who lead us during the campaign had a plan, a "what if "plan, should there be shennagins. Post election, I was ready to be lead but Kerry, Edwards, Move On, and the others were silent . New leaders emerged. John Conyers and Jesse Jackson were there for us. Stephanie Tubbs Jones and Barbara Boxer were there for us. And many of us took the lead. We can not sit back and let democracy die. Knowing there is a huge fire, we must all grab a bucket of water and enter the burning building. We are the leaders and if you are aware of what transpired, what is occurring, and you love your country, come join us!

when they invited people to their forums to suggest what the most important battle was.

should be working on a plan to respond in case of the election being stolen. It was not that big of a surprise, especially after 2000. TM put on those "Computer Ate My Vote" Rallies during the summer. They knew about the machine/software issues. On Nov 3rd, I contacted my TM contact, I contacted everyone I could think of when I heard Kerry was conceding. I am in Franklin County Ohio. My Kerry staging site included low income Af Am neighborhoods. We were aware right away about long lines, challengers, and other bs that Blackwell had set up to disenfranchise dems. We were told a head of time, the thugs had previously rented all the available vans in surrounding areas, because they didn't want the less fortunate getting to the polls to express their right as an American to cast their vote. I am going off on a tangent.

My point was I had thought that our "leaders" had a "what if" plan ready to implement RIGHT AFTER the election. They didn't. New leaders emerged.

I posted at that TM forum and as I recall alot of people agreed with me that the fraud was the only issue that mattered. I still tell people, that until we address the fraud, all the grassroots, language framing, etc will be for naught. They stole the election and will continue to do the same in the future. WE MUST ADDRESS THE ISSUE OF FRAUD, and I am committed to keep pushing it until it is corrected.

I knew the election was stolen on Nov. 3rd. These organizations should have known and acted accordingly on Nov. 3rd as well.

all they did was set up a page of links to educate their members, and send out an email letting them know it was there, it would help immensely.

They need to read Conyers/House Dem Judiciary Report as well as link to the information here, and read Teresa Heinz Kerry's comments of last week. They connect to millions and have the ability to educate a large portion of the suspecting public.

I held fundraisers and raised thousands for these groups during the campaign. Since the election, their silence will not get a dime from me. Our democracy is at stake and their silence on the matter is inexcusable. I had hope that these were progressive leaders of the future of our country. Leaders need to take risks, in order to do what is right.

TWO FRAUDULENT FEDERAL PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS AND COUNTLESS OTHERS. OUR DEMOCRACY IS FASTLY FADING WITH EACH PASSING BILL!

take this on seriously. I also want them to get some kind of REAL feedback method; they are far too top down, and have a lot of frustrated members who feel their voice is not heard.

I whole-heartedly agree that we must grab the buckets ourselves. I wish I knew how to write a voter initiative or could find someone who does because I really believe that that is the most likely way to get some real action on this. We keep waiting for our elected officials to grab the bucket and lead the brigade. As time passes though, I recognize that we can't just watch the fire. We really need to at least try to do something ourselves.

Appreciate you coming to add a little stock and give a little stir. Pretty soon, we're going to have to turn the heat up if we want it to be done by 2006. But, it looks like some folks are adding a little bit of spice to get it on it's way.

We just need to keep reminding them not to forget the pot is on the stove!

Damn, that made me hungry. BRB!

What happened? Or didn't?

Why are folks so willing to "move on" without a Big Reality Check about what happened 4 months ago?



"Pretty soon, we're going to have to turn the heat up if we want it to be done by 2006."

...after 2000 (Stolen Election I).

The heat continued to rise. It started at around 15% saying "not fair and square" shortly after the High Court Treason. And we stoked it as best we could. The CBC stoked in on Jan 6th, 2001 and were ignored; by both the DC Dems and the Euphemedia.

Tens of thousands stoked it on Jan 20th, 2001 and were nearly ignored, by same.

Vince Bugliosi stoked it with a bestseller and it was nearly ignored by the Euphemedia. As were other books that were widely read, but curiously undiscussed.

But still the "not fair and square" number continued to rise. It continued to rise until it hovered around 50%. An indication that the public was ready for a reality check.

Democrats.com led the coalition to get the ball rolling with a DC press conference to launch an effort to impeach the Felonious Five.

Sadly, the event was scheduled for 9/11/01. (cue ominous music)

Will history repeat? Who knows? Will Stolen Election II continue to eat through the body politic like an acid, the way SE-I did? Almost certainly.

Are some things panning out better than 4 years ago? I think so. The CBC was not ignored this time. We got a Senator to put their objection on the record. Teresa Heinz-Kerry feels safe to speak out. Hitchens feels safe to confirm the non-election in Ohio. Even the DC Dems have deployed a commission.

The reality check needn't be "Big" to be real. We just need to continue the drum beat, the drip-drip of truth. If we do the conventional wisdom will soon be that "everybody knows he stole both elections."

We may have reached critical mass already. You just never know.

---------

Thank you for the insight and for "Euphemedia."

The heat continued to rise as the frogs sat in the comfy water and the bubbles percolated upwards.......

:bounce:

Reality check: IMHO we need to acknowledge what happened and Where We Are for the purpose of moving forward. Local grassroots groups meeting up after the election are skipping that part. By the time I got to DU, maybe that discussion was over-- I didn't find much evidence of it. Although the distress of living NOW under an illegitimate and dangerous regime pops up on various threads.

"Conventional wisdom" -- I am concerned about the inability of the general public to react, like those waterlogged frogs. Water that's been drip drip dripping and heating up since Reagan's "landslide." What if "everybody knows he stole both elections" and nobody (in the general public) cares? and if it doesn't remove the WH gang?

What if they gave a "selection" and no one came? What if election reforms are successful and the apathy and disempowerment of American voters is unaddressed, is worsened by the awareness of 2000 and 2004 being hijacked?

For all the good work that is going on to "fix" elections and "restore" democracy in the U.S., the fact that 2004 WAS Next Time and democracy was gutted with nary a whimper is damn spooky. It was a blip on the screen, amongst the conventional and unconventional alike.

Thanks very much for your post and indulgence in this continuing pondering of the relevance of reform in the face of fascism. I would buy it if someone told me that times had to get this dark for progressivism to renew. Only one person said this to me back in January-- a Buddhist who also understood that the changes needed will be simultaneously personal as much as political.


:hi: :kick:

attention. Unfortunately, none of them have "immediate" payoffs. However, if we keep stirring the pot and keep it simmering, it will payoff eventually. But, only if we pay attention.

Patience, grasshopper! :hi:

One decade? Two? Three or four?

It the 2004 election didn't do it, what will?










Eventually? How much destruction will occur in the meantime?

"We're all doin' what we can..."

Dylan is profounding from the speakers as I DU.

I stand with these artists who see the writing on the wall. Perhaps I should quit wondering why, to some, it's in invisible ink.

Only trouble is, IT'S BEEN SAYING FOR THE PAST 25 YEARS THAT WE WOULD END UP WHERE WE ARE NOW, IF FOLKS WENT ALONG TO GET ALONG. And here we are.

".......I was so much older then
I'm younger than that now......"

:evilgrin:


edit:
went to www.thedeanpeople.org and there was this quote:

"You must make the injustice visible." --Ghandi

Good one. Great site. Thanks, Senator, for providing some answers.

start to notice. We need to start telling folks what we want to keep our votes safe. It is enough that 30% of the electorate is not sure their vote is counted to know that we need to make changes Now! Nothing else needs to happen for us to start demanding changes. We just need to be clear about what we are asking for and then get really LOUD about it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x343146

Edit for link

This thread got real interesting over the weekend. I am plugging in here to thank Melissa G and mod mom for active answers and info. And to reflect comments from posts below.

There is an undercurrent, but it shows up, of those of us who just DON'T GET the complacency which has met the defrauding of the American electorate. As mod mom points out:

"In the meantime our environment is being ruined, and countless lives being destroyed. How long do we wait? I think everyone here believes the evil of the curent regime will be part of historical record, but should we let the pot shimmer, patiently, when so much destruction abounds? TWO FRAUDULENT ELECTIONS PEOPLE-where is the leadership denouncing it?"

Underline "when so much destruction abounds?"! Why do activist progressives think we have 2 or 4 years to fix paper trails or 30 to 40 years to build think tanks and "framing"?

And from davidgmills:
"I am so glad to have Air America here in Memphis but I am so angry that the number one issue of election fraud costing Kerry the Presidency is never mentioned. It ought to be topic No. 1 and heard daily."

Isn't it creepy that (many) progressives dropped the subject so soon, as if the election was barely a blip on the screen?

mod mom again:
"Believe it or not there are progressives still not sure of the fraud, or else they simply believe it is an ACCEPTABLE part of the political landscape."

So, some of us are unwilling to accept the results, the implications and the damaging ramifications of the second fraudulent election. Another poster here described the "outrage" of January 6th. I would submit "heartbreak." If we are paying attention, we know that most of the American myths and most of the American institutions we grew up believing in have abandoned us, not the other way around.

I repeat my question: why did all (?) the groups investigating 2004 election fraud, including BlackBox, Conyers' committee, Barbara Boxer and John Kerry (MoveOn.org went silent, what's up with that?) promote the disclaimer, "Not that we expect it to change the OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION." If the outcome ought to be changed because it was fraudulent then WHY THE HELL NOT?

Also mentioned here are perceptions of the American people-- whether they are too busy or MSM-addicted or in-denial, etc. -- regarding election fraud. After the election in my community, progressives and first time activists that came out to town hall meetings and a resurgent grass roots movement. Yet people were ready to forget about the election and talk about "next time." 2004 WAS NEXT TIME. Someone at a MoveOn.org "framing" meeting actually said, "That's sour grapes" when the election was mentioned-- which is, of course, Wrong Wing "framing."

Melissa G:
"It is enough that 30% of the electorate is not sure their vote is counted to know that we need to make changes Now! Nothing else needs to happen for us to start demanding changes. We just need to be clear about what we are asking for and then get really LOUD about it."

"We need to make changes Now!" Some of us call for thorough investigation of 2004 election fraud and if necessary CORRECTION, including removal from office.

Barring that, there is no guarantee of "next time." Paper trail of no paper trail, electoral reforms will not succeed if more and more Americans are so jaded no one bothers to vote. So much damage is being done every minute of every day by this dangerous cabal that simmering pots and dripping water will not satisfy the American thirst for democracy NOW.




:kick:

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It has been suggested that this be brought to the attention of the MSM.

If you think this story has any traction, or you know any Republicans for Kerry who might be interested, or you just think it's under-reported, please help!

Thanks!

I am so glad to have Air America here in Memphis but I am so angry that the number one issue of election fraud costing Kerry the Presidency is never mentioned. It ought to be topic No. 1 and heard daily.

If Air America will not get this issue going, I don't have much faith that it will ever get off the ground. There are just not enough people yet who get their news from the internet.

My liberal PhD (biochemistry) brother (52 years old) is a case in point. I can not convince him to quit getting news from the tv.

He won't read my emails when I send him articles. I have to call him and spoon feed him but of course my summaries don't do justice to the real articles especially the ones on statistics. I had to explain Diebold, ESS and the whole enchalada to him last week. He's kind getting on board but I just don't see the willingness to get on the computer and learn.

There is a PhD (rehabilitation) expert (probably mid forties) I use in my cases and he is also liberal though probably not as liberal as I. I emailed him the UScountvotes article and he read it and thought it was "interesting." Just not getting enough traction. He still thinks he's getting the straight scoop from the Wall Street Journal of all places.

If I can't sell these guys, do I have any hope of convincing the ignorant masses?

So Will, if you can't convince people a problem exists, how are you going to convince them to fix it?

They are too busy working, taking care of kids, and doing whatever else. Unfortunately that usually means they are too busy to read the newspaper and don't watch TV either. They are clueless. I know people who have never even heard of Ann Coulter! It is indeed an uphill struggle.

but thanks for asking. ;)

Seriously, I am getting a bit frustrated with our DINO leaders and their refusal to grow spines and use their brains and power. They are getting a bit disgusting, some of them.

Carrying on the fight but I really think that we need to march on DC.

We must be like the water that patiently drips day after day. Little progress seems to be being made. Then suddenly, POW! a rock breaks loose, and a chain reaction is set in motion. Soon, many other rocks and other debris (trees, boulders, etc.) are knocked loose, and creates an unstoppable landslide. In what seems like and instant, the whole side of the mountain has fallen. But it all started with that steady drip, drip, drip of the water.

So we must continue to be both patient and insistent like the water; and, inevitably, the truth will bring down the mountain of election fraud/reform.

Two Gandhi quotes come to mind:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS."

destroyed. How long do we wait? I think everyone here believes the evil of the curent regime will be part of historical record, but should we let the pot shimmer, patiently, when so much destruction abounds?

TWO FRAUDULENT ELECTIONS PEOPLE-where is the leadership denouncing it?

Again, I post that on 3/19 we will have a great audience (most appalled by the hubris and evil of this administration) on hand lets work on informing these folk to the fraud and demand action. Believe it or not there are progressives still not sure of the fraud, or else they simply believe it is an ACCEPTABLE part of the political landscape.

Sadly, I've seen many become impatient/discouraged and give up. Many had expectations that the "2004 theft" should never been allowed to occur. Then when it did happen, others expected the vote would NOT be certified in Ohio in early December. And even more would not accept the Congressional certification on January 6th. And for others, the final outrage came on January 20th. Many of those who have continued with the fight no doubt had the same hopes; but when it didn't pan out, had the patience to continue anyway.

Your right. We lack "...leadership denouncing it". We, who are NOT in positions of power, must lead (as Gandhi did). But, we should never confuse patience with passivity. The impatient, in a situation like this, often get frustrated and quit. Ultimately, they usually accomplish little more than the passive.

We must act daily on this issue because, as you say, "...our environment is being ruined, and countless lives being destroyed" AND SO MUCH MORE. But we must act both patiently and relentlessly because we have no choice; and fortunately (for ALL of us) it works (see Gandhi quotes above).

Excellent suggestion ("...on 3/19 we will have a great audience ..."). I spoke before the NION rally at our state capitol on 1/20, and will make arrangements to do the same on 3/19.

Our relentless actions WILL have the necessary effect. Keep up the good work... and NEVER lose hope. Remember, "...through history the way of truth and love has always won... ...think of it, ALWAYS".

:D:thumbsup:

difficult, especially if surrounded by many non believers, to be constantly dismissed as a kook, conspiracy theorist, etc. Also remember many who are fighting the election fraud battle were also very active during the campaign. Speaking for myself, I worked ful time + on the campaign, promising my family that on Nov 3 they would have their mom back. Never happened. Rather than giving up, I think some people need a little break. I am truly hoping the 3/19 date will be a spawning ground for a massive movement.

I think I will post about the 3/19 date so that many groups will utilize the crowds to get people actively involved and educate those dems who still doubt a fraudulent election.

was valid. In fact, that's my approach now - to create a legitimate "reasonable doubt" in everyone I can, that there was "something wrong" with the last Presidential election. Wrong enough to cast doubt on the outcome. I find this MUCH easier than "proving" the election was stolen. Yet, it has the same desired result - more people aware of (and questioning) the results of the election. I have found using this approach, along with easily understandable strong evidence, to be very successful with almost ANY open-minded individual (even moderate Repubs). (It really helps to develop a truly bipartisan approach too.)

My absolute favorite evidence to present is the Curtis/Feeney story. It has intent, motive and credibility (sworn testimony in front of the House Judiciary Committee that Rep. Feeney hired Curtis to write a program to "flip" the votes.). I find it just blows 'em away! People are in shock when I tell them the story (as well they should be). <Of course, a simple explanation of "paper" (lack of) and centralized (computerized) vote counting must be made.)

If time permits, I also talk about the Conyers hearings, exit polls (Freeman, 9 Ph d's, etc.), etc. But I find the Curtis story is generally enough to accomplish my goal - to create "reasonable doubt" in the validity of the 2004 Presidential election, and in the trustworthiness of our election system in general (i.e. need for reform).

...theorist," for citing evidence that Kerry won, turn it around and asked them, what is the evidence that Bush won?

("It is difficult, especially if surrounded by many non believers, to be constantly dismissed as a kook, conspiracy theorist, etc."--mod mom)

What is the evidence that Bush won? Vote totals provided by a few central electronic vote tabulators, run on secret, proprietary software, in highly insecure, hackable computers, owned and controlled by major Bush partisans and donors, one of whom (Wally O'Dell, Diebold) was state chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign.

There is no other evidence. There was virtually no precinct checking, auditing or followup (and in a third of the country, no paper trail). The efforts of the Greens, etc. at a recount, were blockaded.

So that's it: The only evidence that Bush won are partisan-controlled totals, from computers that can be hacked with one line of code, strategically placed, and untraceable.

On the other hand, there is voluminous evidence that Kerry won: the exit polls, now confirmed by numerouos Ph.D.'s who give odds of ten million to one against the weird skew to Bush (USCountVotes.org), the big Dem success in new voter registration (57% to 41%), the Zogby prediction (http://www.exitpollz.org), the many, many recent opinion polls showing 60% to 70% of Americans disagree with every major Bush policy, foreign and domestic (some of them at http://207.44.245.159/article8191.htm), etc.

Another fact to bolster the lack of evidence for Bush winning:

--the TV networks changed the onscreen exit poll data, late on election day, adjusting the exit polls (Kerry won) to fit the official tally (Bush won) coming from Bush partisan-controlled central vote tabulators--thus depriving Americans of major evidence of fraud. (Exit polls used worldwide to verify elections--no excuse for changing the data.)

--having done that, the TV networks continue to promote the illusion that Bush won (just as they sold us the lies about Iraq)

-------

Prove to me that Bush won. That's the ticket. When they think about it, all they have is the TV news that TOLD THEM Bush won. And what is that "news" based on? (Wally O'Dell's WORD????!!!)

The same news monopolies who told them that Saddam Hussein had WMDs, and who changed the exit poll data on election day, would LIKE THEM TO BELIEVE that Bush won--an assertion for which there is no solid evidence.

And that's without even getting into the matter of Ohio...(nefarious intent)...

We need to be clear about our vision for the future. We need to know what it takes to get what we want (honest free elections)and start asking for it. If we don't use this time of the water dripping, it is a missed opportunity for when the dam breaks our way.

Damn it, if you can't tell if your vote counts or not, what other issues are there except family, economic survival, the dismantling and wholesale ripoff of Social Security, a bunch of different guys from different parts of the world with a bunch of nuclear weapons, and St. Patty's day.

Keep hitting power as hard as you can wherever you must. Believe it or not, the computer is mightier than the cruise missle and a lot more fun.

Just got in the door from a wonderful Internet Advocacy Workshop at the new Free Press Office in Columbus (THANK YOU to Phil Nash and Emi Ireland, and to all the Free Press folks!) LOTS of activity going on in Ohio including work on Ohio Teach-Ins for later in the Spring! Lawsuits are still pending and some ballot initiatives are in progress. The Ohio folks are an inspiration -- they are NOT giving up!

Pennsylvania has some very "interesting" reports still coming in from November 2. We are forming a group and have done some activities such as informational flyers at Allegheny County Democratic Endorsement vote (taken on DREs), and attending Voting Machine Information Forum in Scranton. Beginnings of a web page are up: www.votePA.us

Will post more info soon. If anyone from PA wants to help, please PM or e-mail me!

WP - the problem is the failure of the National Democratic Party and the state Democratic parties to fully endorse and encourage support for VVPB legislation.

Many states that have good VVPB bills introduced can tell you that their state democratic parties fail to get behind the legislation.

Georgia has one of the best bills ever written, and you don't see the GA democratic party supporting it. They have the Greens, the Constitution Party and some conservative groups supporting it.

It is like the Democrats are lemmings.

Can anyone explain why the Democratic Parties fail to support legislation to end paperless voting?

same issue. What's wrong with these people?

For all that you have&continue to do with this it we know is quite the up-hill battle, The elite will be eradicated.:nuke:

Just wondering... I am a "glass is half full" kind of guy, but I'm wondering how you think the system is going to be fixed.

Federal legislation is not promising. Not only will it be a bear fight just to get a vote on them (let alone passing) but they all still allow unverified electronic voting.

So where does that lead us? How are we going to fix this mess?

There are only a few options left. Am I missing something?

-State legislation
-investigations & prosecutions lead to unravelling of entire system
-boycotts and divestment campaigns
-massive protests

So Will, I like your optimism but I'm wondering exactly where it comes from. How do you see the system being fixed?

any new ideas? go for it!

nightly since the last stolen election much to my family's chagrin.
I just have not seen many D U organized idea threads for a national plan of attack. I do most all the action items as they come up. I like your idea of the effectiveness of hitting the state legislators. I think it would be helpful for folks to be able to check in one place and see what models of state legislation we like, what, if any, voting machine companies we think might be okay, how we can suggest the tabulator problem be remedied... I practically live in this forum and can't answer these questions so how can we expect the rest of the country to get this info and have our vision of honest, verifiable elections realized?

When I went to testify in Texas, I felt unprepared because I could not specifically articulate what we believe we need to fix our problem. I would like there to be a place for folks to look where there are fast answers for what we want to have happen.

and I wonder what might come of it if we/they (i.e., among others, Professor Richard Hayes Phillips's group) could complete a statistical analysis of ALL the counties in Ohio?
Professor Phillips last apparent online posting ended with "and I still have 73 counties to check." At that point, using both data in the computers, or findable in the computers, and data outside the computers--that is, affidavits, etc, from disenfranchised voters or alarmed voting officials as to irregularities--Phillips had determined the distinct possibility of either a much small Bush lead--about 10,000 votes or less--or a small Kerry lead--as much as 6,250 votes, depending on the details in a couple of counties he cites at the end of the online piece at his Site, ("http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm" -- click on "Estimated Vote Count in Ohio"). A recent posting at DU that I know of (bernview's Fri. March 11, 05 psoting "Summary of election fraud and manipulation in Ohio by county", adds ten more counties to this tally, bringing us down to 63 counties that I still don't have stats for.
In other words, aside from the Voting Rights Act violations issues raised by the disenfranchisement problems as verified by affidavit, there is a separate, new legal issue involving verifiable data still in the computers, that might reflect actual votes cast, and mis-tabulated or mis-categorized or mis-counted by the computer software or otherwise caused to be mis-handled by computer-related equipment; or, that is on a computer or state record of some type--e.g., those voters who have been able to show that they were legally verified to still vote and were not listed as being registered any more.
These kinds of things--records of votes cast and still in the computers--when found among the statistical analyses, could result in a claim of actual votes being there for Kerry.
Based on what I could put together as to numbers of this nature, Phillips' group still needed about another 23,000 such computer-registered ballots actually cast, to have enough in the way of stats numbers that are actually in the computers, to justify calling for a computer audit of the entire state of Ohio.
No one has ever audited an entire state's computers before. Blackboxvoting.org audited a couple of counties in Florida in 2002, with some dramatic results, but no one has ever done a whole state.
This is new stuff, and if there do prove to be enough computer-based statistical anomalies in Ohio in all those counties put together, a computer audit would be justified. All counties will have to be examined before the audit is called for, to be sure there aren't countervailing numbers in a county or two that would send it back to Bush. (Yeah right--but you get the idea.) Taking such a cautious approach, could lead to dramatic proof Bush didn't carry Ohio, and this would be with verifiable, actually cast, whole and readable (not "interpreted") ballots.
This is a whole new thing. This is like someone finding a bunch of legally-verifiable, valid ballots that the winning candidate in an election had just stuffed away somewhere, to keep them from being counted for their opponent. The only time this kind of thing has ever been found in the past--though it has been-- was decades after the election(s) in question.
This, on the other hand, is happening within a matter of MONTHS.
I thought, for just a short while, that Professor Phillips was going to finish the whole study in time to influence how the Electors voted. Had this been completed that quickly, it could, indeed, have. Now, with the lawsuits still pending, I wonder what further legal actions could result from the audit?
I'm fairly optimistic that the remaining counties would only add to the Kerry tallies, but we have to actually have the data before we could claim those other 23,000 votes that were left with 73 counties to go. The other ten have done nothing but indicate this 23,000 has been whittled away at, but I don't have exact numbers as to stat numbers that are in the category of things that are there in the computers.
But this is the kind of new thing we're looking at.
I for one am very anxious to see the rest of those 63 counties' statistical anomalies, to see how many represent things that would be findable in the computers. It seems fairly clear to me that it could be established that Kerry won the Electoral College in 2004 via carrying Ohio, with this method. There would be no back and forth on it, because the votes would be there, found by the audit.

Check out the volunteer page, and scroll down to Richard. He needs help to continue his investigations.

http://www.solarbus.org/election/volunteer.shtml

DU is good for action items, but if you want to organize a plan and coordinate groups, I'd suggest getting involved in a group. There are many groups forming, some have been around, and the good news is that there are some "umbrella" groups forming now, to bring all the groups together. I think the V.O.T.E. group is a good place to look if you want to get more involved in planning actions and coordinating with others. There are others too, like the National Ballot Integrity Project, Voters Unite, etc...

For many of these orgs, you can volunteer to help out with their projects. They need help. Check out this page:

http://www.solarbus.org/election/volunteer.shtml

Gary

Focus on THE VOTE. Do something for it every day. And when you get betrayed by progressives, backstabbed by Democrats, sneered at by know-it-all leftists, and stomped on by Republican jackboots, get back up on your feet, and do something for it the next day.

Read "The Myth of Sisyphus," by Albert Camus. That's the way it is.

(Those guys saw Hitler take over Europe. Getting depressed was not an option.)

All this, learn computers crap. It's all smoke and mirror.

SIMPLIFY IT.

YOU CAN'T SEE ELECTRICITY.

CUT THE POWER OFF.

Or the POWER WILL CUT US UP IN THE GIANT LEAFSHREADER THAT IS OUR CURRENT GOVERNMENT.

posts here. We are not giving up, that's for sure! We have a very active group here in Oregon. Meeting with our SOS's legislative aide tomorrow to talk about tabulators!

recertify the Diebold voting machines decertified by our Democratic ex-secretary of state.

We're having a meeting of activists Tuesday. I'm proposing holding a "Voters Won't Be Fooled" rally on April Fool's Day in front of the GOP lapdog's office--and inviting all those media contacts we cultivated during our Donna Frye rallies. We'd hire a fife player and drummer in patriotic garb to show which side is standing up for Democracy--and which side deserves to have citizens revolt against it.

What do you think?

And we need to get Paul Revere and a horse into these demos.

("The electrons are coming! The electrons are coming!")

(har-har)

the electrons! ehehhe

wound that never heals.

That's my take on what a lot of us here feel.

We always deeply appreciate your company, your contributions, and all of your work, wherever it takes you.

Thanks for asking.

:hi:

hole in the head of the American people. If the past two elections can be bald-facedly stolen, and the American people have no representation, and the American people have no recourse, why the hell are people talking about REFORM? Can we at least agree to acknowledge that this is completely INSANE and CONTRARY to everything that this system supposedly stands for?


PeacePatriot suggested:
"As with Iraq, it's going to take some time for the falsehood of this election to be fully exposed, and for the progressive community to pick itself up, repair its broken bones, and implement a solution. " "It is not a difficult problem, really. Most people would agree that we should have honest elections."


The demolition of democracy has already been perpetrated on us. The inability of the American people to even raise an eyebrow WHETHER OR NOT they are spoon-fed bullshit news, is THE PROBLEM HERE. It is appalling that people don't understand the implications of fraudulent elections, whether they are red, blue or whatever.

If this deadly joke stands and well-meaning activists talk about "next time" and the charade pushes ever more young people (maybe even me) over the brink of cynicism and voter apathy, the American experiment is over.

:kick:

I have read through this post again tonight, including PP's detailed explanation. I invite anyone to answer the questions I still have from above:

How do we UNfix the "election" of 2004?
The story of election fraud in Ohio and elsewhere was blackedout by MSM and concerned citizens were demonized on editorial pages. The general public remained in a daze of compliant complicity. As did Congress. But for two women. Heroes. Will the story of election fraud be mainstreamed?

If there were verifiable instances in one or more states of election fraud, why did every (?) group investigating (and St. Boxer herself) put forward the disclaimer "not that we expect it to change the outcome"?

Given the pre-existing epidemic level of voter apathy (especially amongst the well informed and the young) and the evidence that this was our second stolen presidential election in recent memory, how do we convince people to believe there will be a "next time"?

every opportunity you get. Use the overwhelming evidence (but don't overwhelm them). Speak in measured (not strident), yet confident tones, and you will even find success in convincing many open-minded moderate republicans.

Our goal should be not to "prove" election fraud; but to create legitimate doubt in the 2004 Presidential election outcome; and, that the current election system can NOT be trusted.

If we succeed in this, we can create the critical mass that is willing to DEMAND both election reform AND large-scale fraud investigation (on the scale of the 9/11 commission).

But we must be both persistent (relentless) AND patient. We will not "UNfix the "election" "overnight" The problem is just too big to be dealt with constructively in any other way. This is most likely the BIGGEST CHALLENGE/THREAT our country has EVER faced!

Here's a good link of all the evidence you will ever need to "make the case".

Quick Summary of 2004 Election Fraud!
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/02/311231.shtml

Edit:
See this post for more ideas:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=342810#343603

Hang in there. We need all the help we can get.

It's really too bad that the 2000 election was not the catalyst needed to guarantee legitimate 2004 elections. It's even worse if the fraud was enabled by complicit Democrats in Congress, willinglly, as suggested in this thread.

I understand that the times are dark enough to finally mobilize activists. I thank pre-emptively the folks who will craft election reform. Perhaps those efforts will help snap Americans out of their stupor.

Having waited since Nov. 2, 1980 for the American people to wake up, I am now skeptical that it will ever occur. It must occur for election reform to take hold.

The other questions I have posed remain open. There is different work to be done to address the mass psychosis evident in the American public.


:evilgrin: :kick:

skip ahead and ask them what they think we should do about the fact that it was.

They'll catch up, right quick, if they even need to. We'll help them.

That's what's already going on. I had a friend tell me that her hairdresser said, out of nowhere, "You know, I think they stole it."

Once the hairdressers are on it, we just need to get the taxi drivers. It needs to be common knowledge, and it's really not that hard to make it happen.

I needed to read it.

And thanks for asking Will. I'm busy trying to get progressives elected as State Democratic Party Chair, State Vice Chair, and Salt Lake County Chair. They all know it was stolen.

That's great. Best of luck to you!

:hi:

Anyone who can contribute to their campaigns, please do! Out of state donations are accepted! www.axfordforchair.org and www.lauraforvicechair.com

We are the ones we've been waiting for!

I received a letter from Senator McCain in answer to one of my emails. He expressed concern about the flaws in the 2002 elections and mentions HAVA and that new bills will be introduced, etc.

He said not to hesitate to contact him again so, I sent him the Summary and the link for the documentation. I find it impossible to believe that he would allow his country to bite the dust in this manner.

I'm not doing much but resting up and checking in here every few days. Nice to see a good deal of new blood, and the tireless old blood.

Keep them coming.

Love this one, very true "This is most likely the BIGGEST CHALLENGE/THREAT our country has EVER faced!"

And I see the will to do it, (a will which to me is so blatantly un-American that I can't believe an American would even stoop to the thought), I have come to the conclusion that I now have doubts about the election of every single one of our officials. Every single one. From the mayor of a small town right on up to the President.

If a group can rig a national election via computer fraud and get away with it, it would be a far easier feat to rig a local election and get away with it.

This really has shattered my trust in government. I look at every politician now with utmost suspicion. My first question to myself is, "Is he there legitimately?" "Was he really the people's choice?"

Here in Memphis, all voting is touch screeen without a paper trail. How many of my local officials were not the will of the people?

And I can not fathom how something this important just continues to be dismiised.

And as I said earlier, if Air America won't start getting the message out, who will? Why can't Air America have Steven Freeman on as a guest? Or the director of USCountVotes? or Ron Baiman? Why can't these guys have some information on the validity of the exit polls? Something to create doubt in the minds of the American people?

I say we begin by lobbying the hell out of Air America and maybe threaten to turn them off.

I don't pay attention to MoveON anymore. I feel totally abandoned by them as well.

We could use a new MoveOn equivalent. What MoveOn was to the war, this entity should be to the election coup.

I just hope it's sooner rather than later!
Until then, we need to focus on reducing the damage of this administration. This ANWAR blow is going to be difficult though!

As if there were any moving on without assenting to the "Through the Looking Glass" rules of the * administration, where "democracy" can't possibly survive if it relies on "democratic" processes.

our darkest days! thank you Will for your encouraging words-really needed them yesterday!

that people don't know what happened, I'll tell you, they do. I still have my Kerry sticker on my car and every day people comment on it, and every day I hear the same thing... "he won, you know." And I reply, "Yes, he did. They cheated again."

People KNOW.

People know. Its an open secret that the Patriot Act and the corporate rule and the bogus election redux tolled the final bell for American democracy.

Someone posted above that when "hairdressers know, we just have to get the taxi drivers." I'm sure DU'ers come from all walks of life. And I assure you, you may be surprised at what the salt o the earth know about who's running things and how.

The question is why can't Americans who know, respond and react? What are the mechanisms of control beyond access to accurate media or voter verification?

Why couldn't Congress respond and react?

Until people believe in the efficacy and relevance of the democratic process, voting mechanisms are only that.

Thanks so much for all you have done and are doing to investigate and bring the situation to light. Your voice stands out for those of us who are looking.

:hi:

Is it a little strange that Will would start a thread asking how everyone is doing and not respond to any of the replies?

I know Will's busy and I don't mean to be critical. But it strikes me as a little strange that someone would start a conversation and then walk away. A lot of people seemed to have replied with questions and he hasn't answered any. Maybe he just hasn't done it yet?

themselves. I am sure Will reads them, but as he said he is busy. Will wrote an outstanding piece yesterday, that brought tears to many eyes.