Action on this board is dwindling

Has anyone else noticed how long it takes for a thread to move to the bottom of the page lately?

I remember when you used to be able to literally watch it fall to the second page in what seemed like minutes.

I'd like to hope it's because everyone is off working on projects to fix our broken democracy and we all have less time to chat about it.

where interesting issues and events are subjected to analysis and a wide array of viewpoints. People need forums to vent and can learn from each other not to mention at times all coming together on issues.

inconsistencies in the Final Exit Poll as well as the documented hard evidence of fraud.

The Final Exit Poll of 13660 is a treasure trove of misinformation which has provided us with some very significant smoking guns.

It's just too bad that many at DU and elsewhere, are too lazy to analyze the numbers.

Someone has to do it.

for the past week, perhaps it is the holiday as well,but yes, activity is dwindling. The jackasses in leadership refuse to speak out on this issue.
Gore Vidal is probabily right.

The Undoing of America: Gore Vidal on war for oil, politics-free elections, and the late, great U.S. Constitution

Ohio was stolen. The Republican Congress will never have a hearing on it. But I think attempts are being made to publish the details of what was done there, and elsewhere too in America.
In other words, I put the case that Bush was never elected--not in 2000, and not in 2004. This is a new game in the world. Through the magic of electronic voting, particularly through Mr. Diebold and friends, you can take a non-president and make him president. But how to keep the people, including the opposition who should know better, so silent, this introduces us to a vast landscape of corruption which I dare not enter.

Con't-
http://citypages.com/databank/26/1268/article13085.asp

-----

Hey, at least this forum is just about the ONLY place you can come to and not be flooded with Shavio threads!


:party:

Through the magic of electronic voting...you can take a non-president and make him president....this introduces us to a vast landscape of corruption which I dare not enter.

I, along with many of you, worked my butt off from Nov 2 until Jan 6, when the votes were "certified". :puke: sunk into a state of depression, then picked myself up to attend a major Inauguration day protest. Since then I feel like all the air has been let out. I don't know what I can do anymore to make a difference. I don't want to be this way but I don't know how to get my energy back, nor what to do with it. I have such intense inner rage and contempt, that is triggered by everything remotely related to the election...from RW "Christian" whackos, to "rape" of the land, to lying politicians in every level of gov't, to having to give my driver's license number and personal ID info in order to get grocery store sale prices...you name it.

Has anyone else here overcome similar feelings? I need advice, hope, anything.

Among all the evil and dispossession, among the many assaults our liberty and our nation is experiencing right now, there is plenty of encouragement all around you. Find some peace and hope in the words of those who came before (many of whom suffered greatly for what was clearly right).

For example, Abraham Lincoln. Find the happy medium between these quotes and you may find a way to process and use your rage without incurring 'bad karma'.

Whenever I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.
-- Abraham Lincoln

I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits than strict justice.
-- Abraham Lincoln

When the conduct of men is designed to be influenced, persuasion, kind unassuming persuasion, should ever be adopted. It is an old and true maxim that 'a drop of honey catches more flies than a gallon of gall.' So with men. If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart, which, say what he will, is the great highroad to his reason, and which, once gained, you will find but little trouble in convincing him of the justice of your cause, if indeed that cause is really a good one.
-- Abraham Lincoln

I am glad you brought up the subject of karma. I strive for peace and tranquility, so have been really troubled by not having an outlet for, and not seeing an end to all this internal angst and anger... Abraham Lincoln is an excellent role model in these trying times. You inspired me to look for more quotes by Abe, and I found these:

"Every man is proud of what he does well; and no man is proud of what he does not do well. With the former, his heart is in his work; and he will do twice as much of it with less fatigue. The latter performs a little imperfectly, looks at it in disgust, turns from it, and imagines himself exceedingly tired. The little he has done, comes to nothing, for want of finishing." Isn't this part of our trouble--that we feel we have "failed"?

"The probability that we may fall in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just; it shall not deter me." Now that is courage...

"The dogmas of the quiet past, are inadequate to the stormy present.
The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise -- with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disentrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country."

"I know not how to aid you, save in the assurance of one of mature age, and much severe experience, that you can not fail, if you resolutely determine, that you will not."

"Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it."

Which also happens to have been the most obviously fraudulent election in the history of the universe, and yet clearly intelligent people, including the very people defrauded out of the election (Max Cleland, Roy Barnes, e.g.), after being defrauded out of their very livelihoods, failed even to raise a peep about it.

I totally agree with Vidal about this. It's the lack of any opposition to the crooks who stole these elections that is so discouraging. There are plenty of facts out there, plenty of people who would support them if they just had the courage to act and speak out.

THIS TOO WILL PASS. Put that on your desk and look at it every hour of every day. The nature of the physical universe is such that the only thing that doesn't change is the fact of constant change. Eventually, it will change. I don't know what's going to happen or when, but things change and if we keep telling the truth to the few people we know, in time, with enough people supporting, somebody in power or a position of trust and authority will have the courage to say and demand the obvious.

This ties in with the Easter sermon today, about the "stones" that we cannot roll away alone... Trust in the natural order of the universe, in God, if you believe in God... It is hard to let go like that, but it is very good advice, since we have so little power individually in this, which I think is a main cause of the despair. "This too will pass" ...Thank you for those words.

I wish I could give you more hope after reading your post.

Your GA 02 post caught my attention.

I agree.. when Barnes and Cleland don't even help, Kerry doesn't even help, Dean hires a complete Election idiot in Donna Brazile, and they cluelessly spend $500K in Ohio and nowhere else.. my god, this is a formula for continued failure.

but remember. one person brought down nixon. one person will bring down Bush.

Georgia in fact, is the perfect place to start some action. As the role model for Diebold, if Georgia falls, all of Diebold falls.

It's so close I can taste it.. do not lose faith... consider me the spider that has meticulously collected the puzzle pieces to build a case against Diebold that they cannot win.

please hang on.... lots of works behind the scenes... lots.....

Too many jelly beans and hamentaschen.

On edit: ;-)

and then this board will be hopping again. Some people are probably resting. As we gear up for the next election, folks will start to agitate again. A little quiet is not a bad thing for perspective.
Peace,
Melissa

...and most of the Freepers have left us alone as well. Sure, it's less busy than before, as the election inexorably moves further into the past day by day.

However, that doesn't equate to inaction or loss - I prefer to believe that besides the quiet from intense action by our fellow DU'ers all over the country, this is a great opportunity to get focused threads out there, and get some great discussion going, among the netroots.

Yes, Gary, there's a bright side!

And, to paraphrase my very first post here at DU, 999 posts ago:

It's up to us.

Liberal Democracy will survive, and thrive, as the antidote to this age of rampant, impersonal corporatism.

Believe in yourselves! Believe in each other! Believe in positive revolution through knowledge, compassion, political action and non-violence!

Congratulations on 1K, may you make thousands more :thumbsup:

I enjoy your posts. Keep them coming!:toast:

Here's to the never-ending beginning of the most incredible time in our lives.

He's back, auditing in Indiana.

.

have become complacent.

Me, myself, I am just waiting. In a year or two all them folks in them red states start figure it out also, it could get real interesting then :evilgrin:

(When the CON says 45%, just think a lot lower)

Bush approval slips to 45%, lowest of his presidency
By Bill Nichols, USA TODAY
WASHINGTON — President Bush's approval rating has fallen to 45%, the lowest point of his presidency, according to a new USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Poll.
The new poll found the largest drop for Bush came among men, self-described conservatives and churchgoers.
By Tom Hanson, AP

The finding, in a poll of 1,001 adults Monday through Wednesday, is a dip from 52% in a poll taken last week. Bush's previous lowest rating, 46%, was recorded last May.

The White House declined to comment. Republican National Committee spokeswoman Tracey Schmitt said that Bush is taking on "tough issues, whether it's to reform Social Security, promoting the spread of democracy or making a renewed pitch to Congress to pass comprehensive energy reform."

Independent political analysts said the drop may reflect opposition to the White House and Congress intervening in the Terri Schiavo matter.
(snip)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-03-24-bush-poll_x.htm

Poll question: Second DU rename-the-media poll
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=3373164&mesg_id=3373164

...maybe on some of the other election related forums or some of the email lists?

Right now, I'm pulling together information regard VVPB/VVPAT legislation to post in the state forums.

I hope it helps them, and I hope we get us a few bouncy frogs out of the deal.

Dzika, I've been thinking, too, that the "daily thread" desrves it's own forum.

Though I'd imagine there could be some downsides to that, the upside would include not having the story lost after a day or so, and the possibility that ensuing discussion could perk things up.

:shrug:


Wilms

:hi:

the audience here is limited. most people don't read forums. we have to wake up the rest of the world. if you put something together, get it posted on the web somewhere. I'm happy to post things on Solar Bus. You can also submit articles to Free Press and other websites. Go to all the voting websites and tell them about your article.

I think we've reached the point where DU is preaching to the choir. Posting something on the state (or other) forums is a step in the right direction. But I think we all need to be thinking about bigger steps beyond DU and even beyond the web if we want to accomplish our goal.

We need to build the "reasonable doubt" in the veracity of the 2004 Presidential election; AND in the reliability of our electoral system everywhere we can. But this is still the one place people can go to get the most current information AND get their questions answered.

As requested in post #17, I would love to have a list of readily accessible appropriate places to promote my election related blasters.

Currently, I post them here, on Kos, and MYDD.

Any other suggestions would be much appreciated. (Places like CommonDreams.org have routinely ignored my PR releases in the past, so I'm looking for the relatively "sure things" since time is limited.

Thanks.

And on the phone, too.

I've decided against email on a few occasions, picked up the phone, and proceeded to have a good conversation. Once it was with one of our "enemies", ooooooooooh!

I live in a fairly red area. On the street I bring up election reform and get surprisingly positive comments. I usually don't complain about 2004 when I do it. I just ask how secure can a computerized election system can be and it rings a bell with people.

The idea of secure elections enjoys bi-partisan support.

Be not afraid. Befriend a Freeper. (They probably need someone trustworthy!)

And one more email before we head out the door. Conyers and Boxer have indicated that folk like us are wind for their sails.

:)

it on the "Greatest Page" daily. I think it helps to pull more DUers into this forum to see other threads etc. Making it into a sticky would keep it at the top of the page; but would require daily maintenance by the mods. Also, since things have slowed here a bit, it seems that the daily thread is never too far from the top anyway. Finally, if it got its own forum, I'm sure it wouldn't be given a spot on the main discussion page, so being "buried" Politics & Issues Forums would probably result in less exposure.

Here are some of the election reform related groups on Yahoo:
'ELECTION_FRAUD_2004@yahoogroups.com'; 'Election_Reform@yahoogroups.com'; 'Ohio_Election_Reform_Now@yahoogroups.com'; 'stopvotefraud@yahoogroups.com'; 'TruthSeekersElection2004@yahoogroups.com';

Here are some other groups on Yahoo that are friendly towards election reform issues:
'Bush_Is_A_Stinking_Liar3@yahoogroups.com'; 'bush_lied_people_died@yahoogroups.com'; 'Central_Ohio_Writers_for_Kerry@yahoogroups.com'; 'democracyforwashington@yahoogroups.com'; 'FlybyNews@yahoogroups.com'; 'FORUM_FOR_DISCLOSURES@yahoogroups.com'; 'govtwatch4@yahoogroups.com'; 'Grassroots-CA-OH-FL@yahoogroups.com'; 'Green_Party@yahoogroups.com'; 'impeach-gwbush@yahoogroups.com'; 'KerryEdwards2004@yahoogroups.com'; 'Ohio_for_Kerry@yahoogroups.com'; 'OhioVigilance@yahoogroups.com'; 'President_John_F_Kerry@yahoogroups.com'; 'students_for_kerry@yahoogroups.com'; 'The_Bush_Dictatorship@yahoogroups.com'; 'UMASS-Green-Party@yahoogroups.com'; 'wethepeoplespeak@yahoogroups.com'; 'ACLUjax@yahoogroups.com'; 'apfn-1@yahoogroups.com'; 'Bush_Be_Gone@yahoogroups.com';


You may need to join these groups before you can send email to them.

I don't have a list of election forums handy. I'll try to get a list together.

I am working with a few others on a "Super List" project.

It's been recognized that we need to better coordinate our flow of information and make it possible to reach a lot of people in a short period of time.

We are trying to coalate all lists, such as the yahoo ones you mention, and a lot more. For example all organizations that have a newsletter list. And any person who has a list of people in their personal email addressbook that they send political info to.

The Super list will be used to send out vital information about the election justice movement. We will be sending out weekly emails.

So if you know of appropriate lists, or if you have a list in your personal email addressbook, please get in contact with me at gary(at)solarbus.org

We are working out the plan for the yahoo (and other) listservs. So far it seems like we will have to work through a contact person that is already on each list, who will manually forward our messages to the group. We've talked about joining each list so that we can send messages directly but it could be interpreted as an abuse of the system. So if you are ON ANY LISTS mentioned above, or any other lists (yahoo or otherwise) and you would like to be a part of this Superlist task force, please get in touch with me. Again the email address is gary(at)solarbus.org.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x349433#349741

I've been thinking about general "progressive promotion" for election fraud/reform issues for awhile (because of the blasters, etc.).

I will collect my thoughts and email you in the next couple of days.

Is there a list of other election related forums or email lists?

I would like to use it to promote election fraud/reform issues I do, such as the recent Clint Curtis/Bradblog Blogcall. Steve Freeman should be coming up soon, and the Carter Election Reform Commission certainly has some potential.

A partial list of Yahoo groups is upthread.

Maybe we could consider including a link to the DU Forum as a signature in our posts to other forums and email lists.

I've also considered changing my DU Sig to point to the daily thread every day. Doesn't an updated signature also show up in your previous posts as well?

I think an updated signature does show up in previous posts.

dzika, I do wonder if you have had thoughts about a separate page for the Daily Thread. My feeling is that it's up to you. But I'd like to know your thoughts, if any, on the matter.

That will be very helpful. I'm looking forward to any election fraud/reform friendly forum lists you may have as well.

As I mentioned on another post somewhere in this thread (it gets confusing doesn't it ;) ), I currently pub my events (blasters, etc.) at: DU, Kos, and MYDD. Any other appropriate blogs (that allow us to post our own diaries - many do not) would also be appreciated.

Maybe we should start a resource thread for this purpose so others can add their input?


Postable, and appropriate for election fraud/reform, forums, blogs, etc.

- Yahoo groups

- Other forums

- blogs

- misc. (for whatever doesn't fit above)

Others I know about that would fit the mold:

http://www.oliverwillis.com

http://www.oldamericancentury.org

www.globalecho.org is an open publishing platform that invites YOU to post non-mainstream political and social news, opinion, and comment on local and global issues.

http://www.libertypost.org (Note: NOT progressive/Democratic it is supposed to be a MODERATE conservative forum. I saw it recommended as an alternative to Freep at Amazon. (The review said Freep used to be more balanced, but became a total Bush mouthpiece in 2000 and many of the more moderate "oldtimers" left and went to outpost.) May be useful for building bipartisan support?

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/viewforum.php?forum=9
The Road To 2004 (Looks pretty active - Just stumbled on this one looking for True Majority's forum)

http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/discus.cgi

http://truemajority.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=frm&s=871107041&f=881106041
This category is for you to tell us what you think our role in electioneering and electoral campaigns and supporting candidates for office should be. Look at the list, click an idea to read it in detail, then click the rate button to rate it. TrueMajority IdeaSwap Election activities <Hasn't been activity since February, but who knows? since TM has a lot of exposure.>

Well... that's a start.

------------------------------------------------------

"Maybe we could consider including a link to the DU Forum as a signature in our posts to other forums and email lists."
Great idea!

"Doesn't an updated signature also show up in your previous posts as well?"
I believe it does. I know the avatar changes in all previous posts, so the sig should too.

that people are realizing it's going to take real work to accomplish our goal. I hope people are spending less time here because they are getting involved in recount efforts and other plans of action. there are plenty of groups one can join on the state and local level. If there isn't one in your area yet, you can start one.

One of the only ways we can blow the lid off this thing is to find hard evidence. Those who say it can't be proven don't realize that in most places there is a paper trail. Optiscan systems in most cases have ballots that were filled out by real people. If we can recount them and prove the optiscan systems were wrong, beyond doubt, we have a real case. Even DREs have have audit logs that can potentially show problems.

In many places there are written procedures for conducting a citizen based recount and it's not too late. This is what we should be doing in every place possible. There are groups trying to do this but they need more people and organization.

If not recount, we need to pursue legislation. Forget federal legislation. It ain't gonna happen. Even if it does, all we get is a paper trail, not a paper ballot, which means more of the same anyway.

So statewide legislation is another thing to be working on. Most states have a group working on this. All the groups need help.

Then there's the divestment campaign. Another way to affect change and I'm sure they can use help too.

Then there's the volunteer page, where anyone can put in some time to one of the organizations who need help:

http://www.solarbus.org/election/volunteer.shtml

So I wasn't meaning to sound negative. I'm actually hoping this is what's happening. Is it?

"In many places there are written procedures for conducting a citizen based recount and it's not too late. This is what we should be doing in every place possible. There are groups trying to do this but they need more people and organization".

Any links to Ohio citizen-based recount written procedures & groups would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers.

Are you looking to volunteer and help or just for an update on the progress?

there is an organization working on this in Ohio, they are just getting their website together. I'll post the URL here as soon as I get it.

Listen. We're wonderfully leaderless now.

All kinds of good work is emerging, not the least of which is yours. And there seems to be a small, growing, cheerful group of 'support' posters trying to help.

I have much higher hopes, but I feel optimistic at the same time.

Don't smash my Easter Egg! LOL!

Wilms!

We are just being a bunch of MR. Eds ....Wilbur. Wilbur... I like that!

WILLLLLBUUURRRR. Oh yea, where going to see more of that one.

The exposition is painted. Tho for the casual surfer shooting through, one might want to compile a historical thread. For a while, every thing was thrown at the screen for sniffing. Even the casual observer who has followed this unfold, knows the weaknesses of the votin' technology. The inordinate expense... for what? I still have a hard time with a $6000.00 device, only able to produce 10 vote per hour. I digress. It's up to the top 10 per-centers to carry the theories through. And I agree, The word does needs to get out MORE.

Read anything from Mr. Skids of late? Like to know "the brain on a stick" (meant lovingly) is Okie Dokey.

Happy Est Rah!

Good history, good imagery. Derserves a look see.

Definitely, many of us are busy working on various related projects. But the following are some of the other factors I thought worth considering:

1 - Quality vs. Quantity: Not too long ago (Dec or January), I remember a post/exchange by a couple of people that seemed "deep" in the field complaining about the "noise" factor here; and how the posts of substance were getting lost among the IMO-type threads - and they didn't have time to sort through it all. Do you remember how the lighter IMO threads would often garner even 100 or more responses while the calls-to-action etc. often got only 10? There was so much volume here, I found myself too often hunting back through pages to rescue many of these worthwhile "orphans". I DO agree that volume here has purpose also; but there are real advantages to having certain types of posts not falling off the page so fast too.

2 - "The tip of the iceberg": Even though not as many seem to be posting here, I still think there are many that are regularly reading the threads/headlines here. I pay attention to the names and profiles of the posters in various threads. I'm often surprised at the number of "non-regular" posters I see here (often with high post counts). So I think those who regularly post here is a relatively small fraction of the number who are regularly monitoring this forum.

3 - We are patiently building awareness: I occasionally do a "where are they now" advanced search of the archives of some of the more prolific posters of the past. I have found that many are regularly posting on current issues in other DU forums. Although I'm glad to have EVERY activist voice on this MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, I'm satisfied to know that they know this problem exists. I think, at this time, our most important mission is to create "reasonable doubt" in as many people as possible. The larger the number, the more likely to have a public outcry when something breaks on this issue, the timing is right (*'s approval numbers fall low enough, etc.), etc.

4 - "Worst case" - some are burnt-out and/or discouraged: Of course, it would be better if this didn't happen. But, many will return (at a minimum, be monitoring) since they know the seriousness of the situation and "it just won't go away by itself. And, any that don't come back WILL remain at least part of the vital base that knows something is very wrong and MUST be fixed. (Can you imagine ANY open-minded person spending even a little time here and NOT knowing something is VERY WRONG with our electoral system?)

The core that is here must remain both patient and persistent. It's only a matter of time.


"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

"When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem invincible but in the end, they always fall -- think of it, ALWAYS."

Gandhi

There are almost 70 election reform groups/URLs/blogs that I've found so far and I'm sure there's more out there.

I think that people are regrouping and working in their states first. That may be some of it.

"2 - "The tip of the iceberg": Even though not as many seem to be posting here, I still think there are many that are regularly reading the threads/headlines here. I pay attention to the names and profiles of the posters in various threads. I'm often surprised at the number of "non-regular" posters I see here (often with high post counts). So I think those who regularly post here is a relatively small fraction of the number who are regularly monitoring this forum."

Even if I'm swamped with work from a.m. to late p.m., I come read the Election 2004 threads. I am not free to do a lot of activism right now, due to a work project, but I will zip off e-mails when an e-mail address is provided ....like in the case of the California SoS fiasco. I may not post, but I read (sometimes in the wee hours of night, when I'm done working, and sometimes during the day when I'm sitting at my computer eating lunch....just whenever), and I participate in the activities I can. And I talk to people.

And this:

"3 - We are patiently building awareness: I occasionally do a "where are they now" advanced search of the archives of some of the more prolific posters of the past. I have found that many are regularly posting on current issues in other DU forums. Although I'm glad to have EVERY activist voice on this MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, I'm satisfied to know that they know this problem exists. I think, at this time, our most important mission is to create "reasonable doubt" in as many people as possible. The larger the number, the more likely to have a public outcry when something breaks on this issue, the timing is right (*'s approval numbers fall low enough, etc.), etc."

Whenever I read a thread from another forum where people are pimping the 2006 or 2008 elections, I always jump in and mention that it WON'T WORK unless we correct the voting machine problem. In fact, it frustrates me, immeasurably, that people can have their heads in the clouds about future elections, or "replacing" this or that politician, when in fact, WE CAN'T!

Occasionally, there are threads in Election 2004 that have posts that I print out as little hand-outs. And I may not even break in to "kick" the thread, so nobody in the E-2004 forum even knows I'm in here. But I am, and I'm participating in the activism to the extent that I am currently able.

I'm sure I'm not alone in this. Keep up the good work, you guys, and don't stop what you're doing, and doing well! You're not as invisible as you may sometimes believe!!

:loveya:

loudsue

:kick::kick::kick:

Gary et al,

I for one have been working doggedly, or like a dog, whichever is harder. And I do not understand the seeming lack of participation here lately, with the exception of the KOEB thread of course.

It seemed like all one had to do a few months ago was post a suggestion or idea and it would not only spread like wildfire, but it would also be proven or disproven by the self-correcting nature of the blogosphere within a few days. And it was really great to see some of the concerned Republicans such as MarkusQ who used to post here too. Even Chuck Herrin showed up for a while.

Now we have a thread by Will Pitt, for example, that asks how we're all doing, which everyone answers, but he never got back and commented on. Strange.

Anyway, it may be a good thing that there isn't as much traffic here so that serious ideas can be discussed with less emotion, cheer leading, etc. That said, it does seem as if there's less momentum now, which is not good.

I guess time will tell. A lot of people are active at the state level though and I hope some progress can be made that way.

So keep the faith, and the reality too!

When the forum was busier a lot of it was emotional hand-wringing and uber-banter. I've seen much more focus lately.

I have a term paper due and have been struggling with motivation. <Just finished it two minutes ago. Woohoo!!!>

I did address a forum about election fraud last Sunday but haven't decided what I'm going to do this week. Hopefully I'll get some ideas here.

I know all too well from the September 11th forum.

Well, it's an appropriate day for resurrection, being Easter and all.

:)
Anybody else?

:scared:

The battle is not over. The Cobb lawsuit is still pending. Even if that ends, we have sunshine laws that allow citizen hand counts. It was the 2004 election that sparked this movement and we need all the info from that election to help us enact changes, pursue criminals, etc. As long as the crooks are still in office I think we should keep the name.

But the forum title doesn't indicate that a lot of work here is aimed at reform.

As such, it makes me wonder if it disuades or fails to attract new/old participants.

"...disuades or fails to attract new/old participants." We lost some key players (election reform pros) over that. I tried to re-involve at least one very valuable one, but no answer. I'll PM you the name (and a little background) in case you have any ideas.

After all, we don't see a 2000 or 2002 ERD forum around here anymore, do we? ;) And they certainly were stolen too.

Maybe it's better not to revisit this until at least after the Carter Hearing in mid-April?

how many times/day a thread is viewed. Anybody know an accurate way to tell? I view a whole lot of threads I don't post in.

but I don't remember who, or how they did it.

You're reinforcing a bad frame.

Think about reaching out to them.

ProgGroupState ProgGroupName ProgGroupWebsite
AZ Arizona Citizens for Fair Elections http://www.azfairelections.org/
CA California Voter Foundation http://www.calvoter.org
CA Californians for Electoral Reform http://www.cfer.org
CO Coloradoans for Voting Integrity http://www.countthevotecolorado.org/
CO Citizens for Accurate Mail Ballot Election Results (CAMBER) http://www.users.qwest.net/~alkolwicz/
FL Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition http://www.reformcoalition.org/
GA Count Paper Ballots http://www.countpaperballots.com
GA Count the Vote http://www.countthevote.org
GA Voter Choice Coalition http://www.voterchoice.org
IL Illinois Ballot Integrity Project http://ballot-integrity.org/
MD Campaign for Fresh Air and Clean Politics http://freshaircleanpolitics.org/truevote/about.asp
MD True Vote MD http://truevotemd.org
MN Fair Vote Minnesota http://www.fairvotemn.org/
NC Coalition for Verifiable Voting http://www.ncvoter.net
NM Verified Voting New Mexico http://vvnm.org
OH Ohio Honest Elections Campaign http://ohiohonestelections.org/
OH Recount Ohio http://www.recountohio.org
OH Ohio Vote Suppression News http://www.ohvotesuppression.blogspot.com/
OH Case Ohio http://www.caseohio.org
OH Ohio Forward http://www.ohioforward.org
OR Oregon Voter Rights Coalition http://www.oregonvrc.org
OR Oregon Clean Vote http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OR_Clean_Vote/
TX Texas Safe Voting http://www.safevoting.org
UT Utah Counts Votes http://vevo.verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?state=Utah
VT Vermonters for Voting Integrity http://www.geocities.com/vtvoting
WA Citizens for Voting Integrity - Washington http://www.votingintegrity.us/wa/

Great job arnheim! (I know it's hard juggling all this info around.)

HI Safe Vote Hawai'i http://www.safevotehawaii.com/

compared this to the list on VotersUnite? I find their list to be outdated. There are some groups not listed there and there are some groups on their list that don't exist. It's one of the "disconnect" problems our movement has. There are groups that people don't know about.

I've mentioned this before but here goes again... Everyone please check this page on VotersUnite:

http://www.votersunite.org/info/groups.asp

If you are in a state level group that is not listed, please contact Ellen (listed on the contact page) and ask that your group be listed.

Anyone interested in election issues should be working on the state level with a group.

Arneheim, can you compare your list to the one at VotersUnite and work with them to get their page updated if you have new groups that they dont' have listed?

thanks all
gary

Also think about reaching out to these folks:

ProgGroupName ProgGroupWebsite
51 Capital March http://www.51capitalmarch.com
Audit the Vote http://www.auditthevote.org
BlackBoxVoting.com http://www.blackboxvoting.com/
Bush Cheated '04 http://www.bushcheated04.com/
Citizens Act http://www.citizensact.org
Citizens for a Fair Vote Count (Vote Fraud) http://www.votefraud.org/
Citizens for Verifiable Voting http://www.coloradovoter.net/
Coalition for Visible Ballots http://coalition4visibleballots.homestead.com
Cobb for President http://www.votecobb.org
Contest the Vote http://www.contestthevote.org/
Demos http://www.demos-usa.org/
Election Online http://www.electionline.org/
Election Science Institute (formerly Votewatch) http://vote2004.eriposte.com/
ExitPollz http://www.exitpollz.org
Fair Vote http://www.fairvote.org/index.php
Help America Recount http://www.helpamericarecount.org/
Investigate the Vote http://www.investigatethevote.org
Juice for Justice http://www.juiceforjustice.com
Just a Fly on the Wall http://www.justaflyonthewall.com/votefraud.html
Mercury Coalition for Honest Elections http://www.honestelections.us
National Ballot Integrity http://www.ballotintegrity.org
National Coalition for Verified Voting no website available
National Voting Rights Institute http://www.nvri.org
Nov 2 Truth http://www.Nov2Truth.org
Perfect Voting System http://www.PerfectVotingSystem.com
Project Vote Smart http://www.vote-smart.org/
SAVE Democracy http://www.wesavedemocracy.org/
Solarbus http://www.solarbus.org
Stolen Election 2004 http://www.stolenelection2004.org/
The No Confidence Resolution http://guvwurld.blogspot.com/2004/11/no-confidence-resolution.html
The Open Voting Consortium http://www.Openvotingconsortium.org
Truth in Voting http://www.truthinvoting.org/
United For Secure Elections
US Counts Votes http://www.uscountvotes.org
US Voting Integrity Project http://www.usvip.org
Velvet Revolution http://www.velvetrevolution.us/
Verified Voting http://www.verifiedvoting.org
Vote Scam http://www.votescam.com/
VOTERR (Voices for Open and Truthful Election Results & Reform) http://www.voterr.org/
Voters Unite http://www.votersunite.org
We Do Not Concede Coalition http://www.donotconcede.com
Where's the Paper? http://www.wheresthepaper.org

These groups are working pretty hard out there. I've been amazed by all of their work so far.

I wonder if many even know about this forum.

Seems rich with possibilities.

See this post... what do you think? since you post so many good resource threads here. Do you think such a thread would be worthwhile?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x349433#349741

I think for you to run a thread asking folks to pile up appropriate links, then possibly another with the final result.

Cool.

-on edit-

Sorry, it seems Gary is already at that. Don't mind me! :)

I just ran into it Googling for a website for your "National Coalition for Verified Voting" listed above (Yep.. no luck on that one):

National Research Commission on Elections and Voting http://election04.ssrc.org/

(Social Sciences Research Council) is government-funded and government-biased. In their latest report, 2004 Presidential Election Exit Polls, they debunk the exit poll dispenses and dismiss attempts to compare the exit polls to the final vote count.

There are other reasons to be suspicious. There is some evidence that they may have timed the release of reports to support Blackwell's testimony at the latest congressional hearings in Ohio.

Also, you can't get on their mailing list unless you are a Social Scientist. I know because I've tried.

They do have a nice looking site with a good list of documents from both sides of the issue.

The actual work of looking at primary evidence like:

voter registration documents
voter signature books
voter lists
voting tabulations
and ballots

should probably be done by volunteers working on teams with established organizations in their states. Researching even a small county involves looking at tens of thousands of pieces of evidence, medium-sized counties hundreds of thousands, and large counties millions, so researchers need to be well organized and numerous. From my experience in Ohio, this is the reality that is confronting the efforts to prove what really happened.

This board is a good place to keep current and share ideas.

:hi:

On the "Ohio Exit Poll Raw Data" thread, we have been trying to identify the Ohio precincts that Mitofsky re-weighted the most, when he switched the Kerry lead to a Bush win in his "final" data. The precincts that most surprised Mitofsky might be a good place to look for fraud.

We have hoped that some Ohio DUers could do a citizens-based recount of a few of the most heavily re-weighted NEP precincts. Would you advise against a such a DU-initiated recount?

Do you know of any organizations that are planning on performing citizens-based recounts in Ohio? I checked all of the Ohio sites in the list that arnheim posted in #37. None of them mentioned citizen recounts.

Thanks.

:shrug:

I'm glad we're talking about this. There is a group working on this but they will need many citizens to help. there are sunshine laws in Ohio that allow public access to voting records. I will provide contact info here or even start a new thread as soon as I have it.

should start an Ohio citizens recount thread, but I think they are both on holiday, at the moment. If they haven't started a thread by the time you get the data, please go ahead and start one, yourself. Thanks, garybeck.

Minvis and Blue22 have done a lot of work on the "Ohio Exit Poll..." thread, working toward identifying the NEP precinct numbers. A major breakthrough occurred when skids deciphered the NEP precinct number sequence, and liam_laddie obtained the Hamilton County NEP precinct names, to enable us to match precinct names with the NEP data. And Blue22 has produced a NEP precinct priority list based on the percent Bush gains in the "final" NEP data.

The goal has been to recount just a few precincts, rather than whole counties. It could do be done quietly, a couple of precincts at a time, until we determine where fraud has definitely occurred.

as soon as it was legally possible (around Jan 10th), I was shouted down as a "disruptor" by some people on this forum.

Anyway - I hope you do find huge discrepancies in your recount, but I doubt you will. But let's say that you do such recounts and you find only insignificant differences (in single digits) between your counts and the official counts.

1. Will you publish your results here?

2. Will that convince you that Bush won Ohio?

3. Do you think it will convince others on this forum that the official numbers in Ohio were accurate, or will you be denounced as a traitor to the cause?

Even a few mis-counted votes in a precinct are significant. It would not take many mis-placed votes per precinct to switch a close election.

However, it is possible that, as a result of vote suppression, and various other undetectable chicanery Bush did "win" Ohio.

But there is no way the official numbers in Ohio were "accurate", because they did not include the uncounted "spoiled" (over/undercounts)ballots. (I believe that "overvotes" are not allowed to be counted in Ohio - but they still indicate voter intent.)

I remember your earlier posts. I had hoped you could get someone to count an Ohio precinct or two. But I got the impression that you, personally, thought that Bush did win Ohio - and I wondered why you thought that.

here is a post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=172&topic_id=5335#5357

that details how to go about it.

Here is a legal opinion by Ohio AG about public access to the ballots after the elections.

http://www.ag.state.oh.us/sections/opinions/2004/2004-050.pdf

here is another post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x308661

where people on this board resisted mightily the idea of any such recounds. I have no idea why.

I, personally, think that there was as much fraud in these elections as there has been in every election in the US for the last few hundred years. That is to say, quite a bit. On both sides. Yet the sheer magnitude of fraud (100,000+ votes in Ohio) that the "elections were stolen" crowd claims (or even better, 5 to 10 million votes USA-wide that TIA claims) is absolutely and utterly impossible. All the "electronic voting machine fraud" people forget that there are dozens if not hundreds of different types of machines out there, and no across-the-board fraud can possibly be committed on all of them. The "central tabulators" claims are completely ridiculous - they presuppose that thousands of Democrats who sit on Boards of Elections and KNOW what their precincts' numbers were before they transmitted them to the central tabulators are too lazy or incompetent or both so they FAIL to look up the published numbers to make sure that they are what they sent in. Other types of fraud of this magnitude would require involvement (and subsequent silence) of thousands of conspirators. Etc. etc.

Ida Braggs looked at exit polls in New Hampshire, saw the discrepancy, carefully picked the most suspicious precincts, convinced a bunch of DUers to send money to Ralph Nader, and with his help recounted all those precincts. The outcome - recounts matched the official results, showing that the exit polls were complete crap. Yet you still can see people like TIA claim that New Hampshire exit polls were correct. That is why I asked you those questions.

Do you know if anyone can request a recount for an unspecified reason? If not, who decides if the request and requester are bona fide?

Thanks.

in ultimately determining:
a) whether or not exit polls were off
b) whether or not the precincts results were mistabulated (and if so at what stage in the process and how)

We have now compiled sufficient information to identify the precincts with the highest probability of being mistabulated...

In the case of exit poll analysis, these are likely to be the most heavily weighted/corrected precincts. The researchers in that realm can speak with greater authority than I on that topic.

As to the official precinct results, there are a number of researchers (including myself) that have conducted extensive statistical studies and "precinct marker analysis" with respect to the distribution of the presidential vote in relationship to other factors (other contests in 2000 and 2004, ballot orders, intra and inter vote location, machine distribution, etc.). Collectively we could come up with a short list of precincts to inspect.

In short, it is a fine idea Kiwi. I would be willing to assist (remotely) in whatever way I could such as helping to define the methodology, developing data capture processes and tools etc.

We need to start somewhere. We need a "smoking gun" precinct to help us identify the mechanism of fraud. Or if certain kinds of evidence begin to disappear when you look, that would be important to know. Then it will be easier to find established organizations who would sponsor an effort of the size needed to do several counties or the entire state.

OhioVigilence is an organization that has discussed helping with an audit.

See http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x349641

here's a cool site that tracks site strength.

click on 'Link Popularity Check' and plug in DU

It rates DU as a 'player'.

Click on Trend/history and you'll see a trend chart.



http://www.marketleap.com/

the record is literally stuck? We can eke out more facts and analyses but nowhere in sight is any major accomplishment left in getting a recount, getting a legal investigation, making anymore of a point about November to the mainstream than we already have, applying this to the unchanged battle over local voting systems.

In essence we have sunk into a quagmire that even historians of the election are not ready to resolve. We have a growing suspicion and underlying belief that Bush stole the election which will grow as his popularity plummets, though mainly people know less about the fraud than we do and we are fairly powerless to make the earth shattering case clearer than that. We have ammo for voting issue battles and a rallying point for real Americans.

We also have one of those boards picking at the secrets, the lost ballots and the myths like the 9/11 terrorist boards. The wall is in actually lost ballots where other research must be brought to bear that can't satisfy what drove the early enthusiasm for this topic- namely changing and challenging the results in fact.

We should get this issue honed and back into the DU and party mainstream because it has not been adequately faced and certainly not dealt with sufficiently as a factor in all future electoral campaigns.

PLEASE try to choose your words more inspiringly... right now, you are creating the outcome you purport to oppose.

1) Who are we? (Democrats?, democracy activists?, election fraudistas?, paper ballot types?).

2) What do we want? (paper ballots? fair elections?, criminal indictments?, election reform?, to win?, real democracy?, to wipe the Republicans from the face of the earth?).

3) What do we do? (talk?, research?, wait?, act?, write legislation?, support others?, don't know yet?, all of the above?)

I pick #2, #6 & #7, and #8...

the only thing that we as a group can agree on is that we want fair elections. there is little agreement on how to accomplish this and whether or not it's important to pursue criminal prosecution of past elections.

we need to keep our eyes on the prize, the one thing we all agree is that the system is broken and we need to fix it. If we don't let our opinions of "how" get in the way too much we can accomplish our goal.

the key at this point is organization. everyone at this DU forum should be involved in an organization, preferably on the state level. We really need to work with organizations and take action now. It's not enought to talk about it and just try to spread the word by posting information on forums. There are organizations that have very good plans of action but they need more people. Spreading information is key, but if it doesn't lead people to act, it's not working.

Your point is well taken, that there are many views on what how to accomplish our goals. My advice would be, find an org that is in alignment with your ideas. If you want to Bust Bush for stealing the election, join a group that is working on the investigations, recounts, etc. If your aim is to enact legislation that prevents future electiosn from being stolen, there are plenty of groups working on this and they all need help.

If anyone needs help finding an org to work with based on their location or ideas, please let me know and I'll help.

DU but don't have much time for it any more, which is a good thing. We are struggling with next steps also, but things seem to keep presenting themselves. We are extraordinarily fortunate to have a wonderful SOS, who passed a law a long time ago that we can never have any voting system without a paper backup. We voted in vote by mail statewide, but there is still the issue of voting systems for the disabled, and the paper requirement is there already.

We are in the process of checking if OR law specifies it is the ballot that is counted, or the ballot of record. THen there's the tabulator issue...but we are moving ahead slowly, feeling our way.

What choice did they have?

Hopefully most are now thinking more about election reform. Paper freakin' ballots!

to be exact
www.countpaperballots.com

we not only need paper, we need to count them..

God Save the Paper....

There comes a time where you are so busy you don't know
whether to keep DU updated, scan in the DRE data, talk to the ACLU, speak to lawyers or what...

today has been a totally slammed day.

I don't think the activity is as much dying as that the energy is building up for the nashville conference and folks getting their ducks in a row..

I believe Carter's appointment is HUGE BIG NEWS, the DNC spending money in OH is big news and the lots of little things, like for instance today I heard that Tennessee successfully litigated an open records request just like the one I"m doing in Georgia....


so do not despair.. we're still here.. it's just that chat falls to the last of my priorities.....

I tend to like to update when there is substantive news... working hard to make one of those kinds of threads.. also noticed you got lots of hits on this.. so keep up the pot stirring.. I needed this to get out of my number crunching...

using sunshine laws in GA to get access to that info? I'm getting really interested in sunshine laws lately, and how they work. If you have info please let me know. If you post here others will see to.

thanks
gary

cannot go into detail on DU board.

will PM you answer..

There will be lots of documentation evidence there and some good cases made for major fraud, manipulation, suppression, dirty tricks, etc.
For example Florida likely had the most but there was a lot in many places:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x349702

http://www.flcv.com/summary.html

www.votettrustusa.org

Formed by the leaders of National Ballot Integrity Project, Voters Unite, TrueVoteMD and CASE-Ohio to provide a very wide range of support and communications services to the 40 or so state-based nonpartisan reform groups concentrating on VVPB issue. We've been providing these services and coordinating to some extent among ourselves prior to this, but the need for coordination and communication is so great that we united to fill this need.

We're just getting off the ground and the site isn't built out yet, but please let us know if you have a nonpartisan VVPB group that's trying to get the laws changed in your state.

Our second newsletter is about to go out, and we'll be starting multi-group conference calls next week, so please email me or Ellen Theisen at VotersUnite if you'd like to get on our list.

Andy Stephenson is a founder. :D

Here's a little project that will appreciate the referrence you provided.

State Law: VVPB and VVPAT. Please Help Complete Resource
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x351179

In my case, I've not had much time to post between working on several campaigns locally. Thanks for all you're doing Gary!

we are working here in the german speaking room on informing the media... (newsletter, calling the papers) Coilin is doing the same for the britain countries.

But have no time to look in here...

Just to say: We are doing something.

Your newsletter (if I get one) is a big help...

**

But: It was a bit frustrating that we could have the help of MOBY (the world famous singer) and nobody who is based in NY want to go to him...

...let me know if there's a real possibility and I'll see what I can do... it seems unlikely that 'no one wanted to go' speak to him.

...enjoy the lull between elections.

Besides -- look at how inactive the Hannity board is http://www.hannity.com/forum/