On attacking election activists as "conspiracy theorists" THE FUNCTION OF SUCH ATTACKS (XPost)

I agree. So tell me about this San Francisco meet up headlining Bev Harris that I didn't get invited to, Land Shark.

I'm all ears.

you're invited if you can make it to SF the weekend of 2/16 (eve) through 2/19 (a.m.)

You can watch that grifter rip off this forum, no -- all of DU.

You can watch her burn one partner after another.

You can watch her try to block Andy's care.

And you can still invite her to your event?

That's revolting. And it bodes ill for your work in any movement that has "integrity" in its title.

Reality check: sucking up to sociopaths isn't the fast track to national recognition.

On edit: Take me off your email list. Do not email me. I'm done, Paul.

Oh well, we'll carry on, with or without you.

Bev has done some great things with the movement. The rest is all pretty much gossip, with no judicial or legal charges against her. But she has been convicted by some without so much as a trial, or even a hearing before a judge.

Fine, you want to convict her, that's not my problem. My problem is the vote, and since she has done some great things, and since no one is perfect and he who is should cast the first stone, I'll refrain from doing so.

Rest assured, dear lady, that if you are correct, your words have made it nearly impossible that Bev could do anyone else again. But there being no justice served, here, in the case of Bev, we shall move forward and together conquer the quite obvious shared enemy.

Thank you for your service to the cause, expat.

All of this "projecting" and "victimization" is tiresome.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6533008/

<snip>
One final note here. I should clarify what I wrote in this space last night about Countdown’s interaction with Bev Harris of Black Box Voting. My staff is not certain that any of our messages to Ms. Harris inviting her on the show since the week of November 15 have specifically asked her for permission to play the videotapes of her work trying to audit the Florida vote. We think so, but I’ve got only three people booking all the guests on this program, and they each probably make about 100 calls a day.

Complicating our effort is the fact that even as we hoped to provide a platform to publicize and illuminate her efforts, Ms. Harris had returned none of the messages left on her own voicemail by Countdown staffers since she spoke to our staffers briefly, twice, during the week of November 8. Only today did she even get back in touch with us, and was so belligerent, threatening, and demanding, that we have chosen to withdraw our invitation to her to appear, or to have videotape of her efforts played, on Countdown.

Threats against myself or my staff will not be tolerated. We are not only busting our humps on the voting irregularities beat, but we remain the only mainstream news organization to continue to cover this vital story. These are my people — they are running professional risks I can’t begin to describe — and I will stand up for them, first, last, and always.
<snip>

Feel free to read it in its entirety. Another "injustice"? I think not. I'll take KO at his word. He has EARNED our trust.

As tough as this may be for some to believe...there are many QUALIFIED people involved with election reform. Insinuating that the movement NEEDS Bev Harris in order to survive is ludicrous.

It's all about credibility. My father once told me that a person's reputation was like virginity. Once it is lost you can never get it back.

Too much has happened that cannot be explained. All of the name-calling and "projecting" doesn't change Bev's history. Her behavior and actions are not ours to own. She OWNS them.

Perpetual drama. Perpetual victim.

How many bridges has she burned? How many opportunities missed?

Yes. Everyone makes mistakes and no one is perfect. You are absolutely right about that. I don't expect perfection...just truth, honor and integrity. Our democracy deserves no less and will cease to exist without it.

I was intending and have in fact been inviting (too slowly but surely) all different "forces" including open source people I don't agree with, Holt people, etc.

Here we have what I assume are peace activists who nevertheless can't tolerate the thought of what amounts to a "summit" between different forces where I'm proposing, among other things, and as I have before on listservs, that there are certain points we are ALL in favor of (mainly the "rhetoric" of democracy) and that reinforce each other, and then certain points we disagree on, and it would be very helpful to have a consistent message on what we agree on. FWIW this was not to be the only such meeting in case anybody is wondering about who gets invited or not, and also FWIW there are various other events prior to that are not group events but nevertheless slowed down the organization of this group event.

But if somebody does that group, movement-wide attempt at getting people A LITTLE BIT more on the same page like I did, one is met with brickbats and so on. Death by association/invitation.

"Our democracy deserves no less and will cease to exist without it."


We either hang together, or we hang separately.

To a smaller degree there are others in the cause who are met with some displeasure, but they are needed in the cause and are therefore welcomed to the table. This is not about personalities or individuals, it is about democracy and justice. Even convicted felons participate in our democracy and efforts to exclude them should be denied. But take note that the information provided has been effectual.


And, I wonder: Is it really wise to allow one individual to bring division into the cause? I think not.

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"Nobody's perfect" is a great defense for all anti social behavior. 'Way to minimize her horrible, DOCUMENTED behavior towards our most dedicated activists. 'Way to minimize her alienation of our allies in the press like Randi and Keith. You know, she was banned from this forum for a reason. Skinner didn't just go crazy on hormones or "personalities" and decide to ban her.

Try to think in terms of the bigger picture. Please. Try. Think about where we want to be in a year, in two years, in five years. Do you want to be making excuses for this grifter's bad behavior or do you want to be nailing down good voting systems.

You have a choice.

Thinking of the bigger picture, and I see no independent outside source of what you are saying. It is just one side and only a bit of it has been proved. But I have seen the progress BBV has made and that is a move toward the big picture.

I have seen a lot of activists tear each other down over the years in power play scenarios and frankly have to chalk up your comments as being in that same type of cause killing temperament.

So do Keith Olbermann's producers. Why don't you so a search or ask Skinner or Ida Briggs or Kelvin Mace or troubleinwinter.

Or, all the DUers she ripped off.

Are ALL of us "cause killers"?

That's actually funny. lol

Edit: And are you accusing me of being a conspiracy theorist? !

You, and others, have been hurt. I feel sorry for yall. But I see no good coming from the continued re-hashing of past personal troubles when the task at hand is bigger than anyone of us. All I can do is suggest a refocusing on the task at hand.

Note that I am not saying you shouldn't be allowed to speak your mind here, there or anywhere, or that you are wrong to feel the way you do, but I am saying I am flat out sick of hearing about it.

because that is expedient.

Do the search. It's not a "personal problem" any more when it involves the welfare of an entire community. How many bridges do you have to burn to officially be a fire starter?

And I am flat out sick of people flowing power to that predator when there are so many decent and hardworking people in this movement.

You know, Andy wouldn't listen to Kelvin Mace on this very topic. And we know how well that turned out for him.

I think it's human nature to be sick of hearing about Bev Harris's behavior, and some people are going to blame you for bringing it up. Viscerally, I don't care much about Bev Harris one way or the other. But that isn't the issue. The issue is whether it's responsible to choose to increase her power and influence. Very few people seem willing to argue that point. They would rather argue about whether Harris is all bad, or whether she has done some good -- which, even if she has, is setting the bar pretty damn low.

I can think of others who have hurt the cause even more than BBV.

A list? You want a list? OK

Start with Abrahamson, Blackwell, Cox, Delay, E-voting, Fraudulent testing labs, General Dynamics, Harris, Incumbents, Jeb, see where it's going?

Paying attention to Bev is setting the bar pretty damn low. We agree!

Is Bev an opponent of our's? Granted she has caused problems, but one must ask: have her problems created this mess of vote stealing? Is she opposed to democracy? Aren't those who want to destroy democracy the real enemies that we should focus upon?

Isn't the constant shadowing of Bev causing us to become disunited?

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http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x466588#466758

...more of concern then anything else.


I wasn't looking up thread on that post ... missed your last "meaty" response and after reading ...it's a non issue. I do find some humor in the "Getting bit in the ASS" to be a popular comment of the day. Ha.



Lead on McDuff.



"The skillful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man."

"The enlightened ruler lays his plans well ahead; the good general cultivates his resources. He controls his soldiers by his authority, knits them together by good faith, and be rewards makes them serviceable."

I can't really tell what the SF story is myself. I just found that posing that particular question helped me to cut through some of the atmospherics, even though I don't know how to apply it in this case.

EDIT TO ADD: I guess that should be "upthread." I knew I was a bit topsy-turvy tonight.

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While you said flatly that it was a non-issue, I am less sure. That's all. By all means, accept high praise.

I respect your effort to make distinctions about Bev Harris, and I'm not qualified to opine, although what you say seems very plausible to me. Life is complicated.

On it being a "non-issue" ...more a polite Exodus.

Life, like climbing a mountain, IS a complicated path... culling and triangulating TCPIP'S not so much, just takes time.


Peace

...not on "weasibility." (Now I've got Pauli shore in my head)

I admit to conjecture ...your more a "dispeller", ain't nothing wrong in that. ;-)

I think not. I am not flowing anything. If anybody is 'flowing power' it is you... flowing power to her by the constant agitation of the problem. Note, that I am saying it is a problem, but have always stated that it is a minor problem which need not cause division between me and you, for instance. I hold no grudges against you for feeling the way you do, it's just that there are bigger fish to fry.

No matter whether a nation is good or bad, we need to be able to communicate about a few things.

We know not what will happen tomorrow except that we help to create that experience. By closing the door on a participant we close off certain possible experiences.

Democracy, at its very core, is a process whereby all participants have a voice. It is only through that process that the best tomorrow becomes possible.

and I do believe in the United Nations as a forum for all nations to have have a voice, to dialog, and negotiate.

So, given these principles, I have a hard time figuring out how to disfranchise Bev Harris from a vote/voice in the movement, consistent with my principles. I think even Bob Ney should still have a vote, though I'm glad he's out of Congress. Ultimately, that no one loses their vote is a built in protection against tyranny, genocide and discrimination: If someone wants to treat say 3% of the population wrong they spot their opponents a 3+% lead in the next election.

So, given my views on inclusion, felon disfranchisement, and the United Nations, if the various "players" in the movement are going to talk, clearly Bev is one of them. My apologies to anyone not invited so far, it is a function of limited time and personal medical and other delays on my part, plus the fact that it's going to take several meetings any way. The only way out seems to be to cancel the whole thing. Maybe that's what should happen to accommodate the concerns here and limit the dissension. There seems to be a mistaken idea afoot that this was a media event when it is not at all for the media, it's just to talk strategies, etc.

Perhaps it should be noted that when Andy needed a job I hired him to scan election results in Snohomish county. As far as I know that Andy called me and said he was too ill to work and that was the last job he had. This is not an issue of taking the wrong side, I'm just trying to get a dialog going and perhaps that is impossible. I seem to have found No Man's Land judging by sfexpat's reactions, and it does seem like trench warfare sometimes, though there's really only one side represented strongly here on DU.

It isn't as if the purpose has not been achieved: Bev is to be watched very closely. I doubt she would be able to scam anyone else, so in that regard she is done. But from what I have seen, she still can help to prosecute the case that has been laid out to gather back the power of our vote. Ya know, the reason we meet here and discuss things.

reasons to bring up that grifter. On the contrary, please someone give me a Vulcan mind meld and remove her from my consciousness. lol


And it may seem minor to you because you seem to know very little about it, BeFree, and I mean no disrespect in saying that. In a way, you're lucky. I wish I was innocent of the whole sordid deal. Do the search. Honestly, having more information can't hurt you although it may disgust you.

And sure, there are bigger fish. There are always bigger fish. But why hug a piranha when it's so easy to get press, when it's so easy to network? Why make Harris the face of this movement when we know what she is. That's just unwise and short sighted in my book.

Land Shark is a brilliant and an accomplished person. He has notches in his own belt. He doesn't need her. And pulling her in only continues a cycle that we already know is vicious.

Why do we do that? Why do we need to do that?

I said I was done and now, I should just stop. Stopping.

We are getting to the point where we are fighting so much that the "fight" between us here at DU is getting in the way of solving the problem. Paul is the most dedicated warrior I know on this issue. He fights every day for us. He has risked his health, his happiness, his well-being and his livelihood to continue to march forward as he sees best. I have never known him to choose to hurt anyone in his path. He gets tired, he gets forgetful but he is of a single focus. Everyday he gives more and more of himself. In the next few months, he has opportunities to get his message about Transparency in Elections out to a bigger audience. He needs our HELP not our whining and complaints. He is not always an easy man to work with, I know because I am fighting at his side and will continue to do so because, HE IS ONE OF THE BEST THAT WE HAVE GOT!

Won't you put away your pistols and join us - even if we are at times on different pages?

Peace to you, kpete

Are you willing to embrace anti social behavior?

Are you?

Apparently, you are.

This is not about "fairness" or about being on different pages. In fact, to frame it that way is downright insulting when you consider the history -- if I was actually concerned with personal insult which I'm not.

This is about enabling someone who has consistently undermined this movement for personal gain at any cost. At any fucking cost.



You're a grown up. You choose your own adventure.

These comments in the last day:

"Maybe if you're too dumb to know which precinct to vote in you shouldn't be allowed to vote anyway! he he"

"Don't you think it's time you get over this conspiracy theory and get on with life. At least we got a few more years of fair taxes and free enterprise, the democrats get the white house, house and senate and we'll be on the fast track to socialism."

"I would be very careful if I were you. The current establishment
would be quick to say "Such men are dangerous". You may end up in
Guantanamo Bay or just vanish."

M. Malkins blogs on the convictions being handed out in Ohio.

"Apparently, Kerry did loose a few votes:

John Kerry, the Democratic nominee, gained a net of 23 votes, yet Bush won the state by more than 118,000 votes.

Not that that’ll stop the conspiracy nutcases - the Republicans control the courts too, you see."

" Lucy pulls the football from the DUmmies, again

One of the conspiracy theories the DUmmies hold dear is the idea that Pres. Bush stole the 2000 and 2004 elections, so you can imagine their joy when finally someone is convicted for playing games with the votes in Ohio in 2004. Only, from this thread, things don't quite go as planned..."

http://lonestarconservative.blogspot.com/search/label/conspiracy%20theories

No sense in repeating it, is there?

Basically all those yahoos are in it only for themselves, just as common criminals are known to be. They are not in favor of democracy, they see the world as only the strongest survive... and therefore, rule.

The rest of us believe in democracy... the idea that the people as a whole can and will determine the best course for the government to take.

Anti-democratic anti-Americans think the 'King of the Hill' should be the decider.

Same shit, different day.

We've got to get our power of electing proper representation back in our hands. And we will, or die trying.

"Where the law prescribes a particular procedure, it's critically important that those procedures be followed -- even when it's certain that the outcome won't be affected. The failure to follow prescribed procedures will only contribute to public distrust of the integrity of our election system, something that nobody wants (except that small cadre of pundits who have made a career out of spinning conspiracy theories about stolen elections). The crimes of which these officials have now been convicted are therefore serious ones ... even though they didn't affect the outcome of the 2004 election.
- posted by Dan Tokaji"

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/blogs/tokaji/2007/01/convictions-in-ohio-recount-tampering.html

Hopefully that sage advice about applying the law will come to pass regarding, from the Conyers Report:

"... we find that there were massive and unprecedented voter irregularities and anomalies in Ohio. In many cases these irregularities were caused by intentional misconduct and illegal behavior...."

http://bareknucklepolitics.com/2004-ohio-election-conspiracy-put-to-rest/

Is that what this trial was, a public spin fest, quasi-funeral. SORRY dudes, but the corpse is walking and talking!

More “They Stole Ohio” Nonsense
Thursday, January 25, 2007

Googling conspiracy theories is entertaining:

"Cue the nutroots’ conspiracy theories all over again: ...Same old, same old. The left will point to this and say “See?!?!?!?!” as if it proves a damn thing. Yet they will happily ignore far worse shenanigans by those in their own party, those who slash tires and things like that.

Bush won, Kerry lost. Get. Over. It. Already."

Comment at: http://www.iowavoice.com/2007/01/25/more-they-stole-ohio-nonsense/

=======

Of Tinfoil Hats And Conspiracy Theories

"It’s alright to question the news that comes out of our media, in fact, it’s wisdom at times to do so. But to twist facts and make stuff up that enables one to cross the line into lunacy and hallucination, is ridiculous."

"While I’m no fan of George Bush’s politics, the vicious hatred of this man has negatively affected the minds of some who used to think and communicate on a much higher plane. Hatred will to do that to people."

"it seems to make no difference that it has been firmly established that the lone shooter was Lee Harvey Oswald. No, there will always be some who insist that there were others who pulled the trigger and that Oswald was set up...."

http://cumby.wordpress.com/2007/01/21/of-tinfoil-hats-and-conspiracy-theories/

This explains the election design in Ohio.

"... Conspiracies, and conspiracy theories, can only thrive in complex situations -- where all of the relevant information is not only undisclosed but unknowable (there is just too much of it to capture), and where analysis and causality and predictability break down because there are just too many variables to consider, and the relationships between them too complex and multivariate to completely fathom. ..."

Unless, of course, you see the import of your stubborn quest and WORK IT OUT anyway.

Complexity is a friend to the statistical analyist; it is the skeleton on which comparison hangs and relationships are revealed. It is also a problem for integrity of election organization. Was it also a tactic?

The article: http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/2006/09/04.html#a1633

All their arguments for DRE's defy common sense, So they switch to Optiscan paper ballots, and at the same time, try and pass a law to limit how many of them optiscan paper ballots WE THE PEOPLE can count by hand.

What if in a timely manner, I want to hand count all the optiscan ballots to check and see if their vote counting machine counted correctly, and that there were no errors or manipulating going on inside of those optiscan machines.

The People will realize, that, only being able to hand count a limited number of the optiscan paper ballots is CRAZY, there should be no limit, because WE THE PEOPLE, should not be limited to the amount of optiscan ballots we choose to count by hand, IT DEFIES COMMON SENSE (PERIOD)

What Debra Bowen does is about a million times more important than velvetrevolution.us, bradblog, Bev Harris, Jim March, Harri Hursti, etc. What happens in California will resonate throughout the United States.

Celebrity activists can do wonders (or throw a monkey wrench into the machine...) but they don't craft, enforce, or interpret the law.

It's pretty clear to me that Debra Bowen was elected to clean up this mess, otherwise Bruce McPherson would have easily ridden in on Arnold's shoes. (Hah, hah, Arnold has no coat tails!)

There's no need to complicate things with circus acts.