Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Instant Runoff Voting V. Range Voting

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
 
groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 03:08 PM
Original message
Instant Runoff Voting V. Range Voting
A group of us here in Kentucky are promoting IRV. We got a call from a guy in San Francisco who says IRV is not a good way to go - Range Voting is better. Has anyone studied these issues well enough to offer an educated opinion?
Thanks!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
1. IRV can promote the same troubles as plurality voting. Is range voting
another name for approval voting?

Check the links here and see what you can find out: http://www.hostdiva.com/liberalchristians/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=29&limit=1&limitstart=1
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. hard to evaluate a system that AFAIK isn't actually used
I can refer you to rangevoting.org although you may already have been there!

For people playing along at home, range voting basically means that every voter rates any candidate s/he wants to rate on a numeric scale; the candidate with the highest average score wins, as long as his or her total points are at least half those of the most popular candidate (this is to prevent obscure candidates from winning with a handful of very high ratings). It's like approval voting with shades of gray.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. This holds some promise for primaries, wouldn't you say?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I wonder whether we can try it right here
I'm sick of "straw polls" already. (Of course, it's easy for me blithely to propose some new 'poll' programming....)

Yes, I think -- at least on paper -- it does away with weird problems of candidates positioning themselves to fill some niche while other candidates split the "X" vote. I would like to see real people trying to figure out how it works.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-27-07 08:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. While I am a democrat,
I think our two party system under-represents certain segments of the population (i.e. the poor - who usually don't vote and politicians don't, in general, seem to much give a shit about them.
I've thought about a straight out parlimentary system but I really don't see that happening anytime soon. I think IRV might help with opening the system more than it is now. I did go the rangevoting.org website but I'm not sure that their criticisms of IRV are valid...just no real life experience with either of them.
We do have city council reps interested in the idea.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
6. Chuck Herrin on IRV: like "the flying car".. "strapping a missile to a Yugo"
Is Instant Runoff Voting Secure?

Here is what Chuck Herrin had to say to NC state lawmakers about IRV



Instant Runoff Voting (By Hand, of Course. It CAN Be Done):

I think that IRV is a fabulous goal, long term. It stands to greatly reduce runoff costs and other problems once we have systems that can reliably handle it. The problem right now is that our electronic voting systems cannot reliably count straight races, and even the DRE manufacturers have said that they are not ready for IRV.

Complicating things, IRV introduces a more confusing system in terms of auditability and security, since the ballots are more complex and normal indicators such as exit polls will not be able to easily reflect IRV results.

Tracing back the will of the voter in the event of problems or fraud would be more difficult with IRV until a reliable procedure and design is in place, and any abuses are much less likely to be detected since the whole point of the IRV system is avoiding recounts.

That's not to say that it can't be done, just that it is extremely important to get it right the first time, with proper design and certification.
Instant Runoff Voting is a great goal for us to work toward, but if we need to get a system in place for 2006 and 2008, IRV is not logistically viable. For IRV to work, we need systems that are trustworthy and reliable, and that takes more time and money than we have available before the next election.

An analogy I use for IRV is the flying car - definitely possible, and a great idea, but right now we won't get there by strapping a missile to a Yugo. Would it fly? Sure - but I don't think it's what we want to rely on for safe and reliable transportation.
I would be happy to work with you towards IRV as a long-term goal, as I think it has merit as a long-term solution when properly designed and tested.
http://www.chuckherrin.com/sinceyouasked.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. "would complicate achieving election integrity"
Frankly, any sort of ranking votes on computers is a horrible idea.
These comments should also apply to range voting, its all about transparency.




IRV voting would complicate achieving election integrity – Kathy Dopp

Until transparent, verifiable, sufficient manual audits of electronic vote counts are obtained in
every state to ensure the integrity of outcomes (and these exist in no states yet)
IRV voting will create big obstacles to detecting any outcome-altering vote miscount
using statistical methods; and therefore leave our elections open to undetectable vote fraud.


In addition, IRV can put a person in office that is not wanted by a majority of voters.
There are other methods that are probably better. See this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant-runoff_voting#Practical_implications

… Much more mathematical analysis is needed before IRV is implemented and its
implementation must wait until after the integrity of our democratic elections is assured,
if we want the voters to determine who wins office."
Please see:
http://electionarchive.org/ucvInfo/US/EI-FederalLegislationProposal.pdf

This comment by Kathy Dopp can be found in the comments section at this link
http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_steven_h_061215_new_voting_method_to.htm

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-28-07 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. "Instant Runoff Voting Not Meeting Expectations"
Evidentally all the hype hasn't made IRV effective, and how does any sort
of ranking style voting justify the damage done to election integrity, and counting
the votes accurately?


Instant Runoff Voting Not Meeting Expectations
by John Dunbar‚ Nov. 17‚ 2005

It's noteworthy that the Green Party which has long supported ranked choice voting
so that there could be oxygen in the American electoral system for their politics failed
to make a single endorsement, much less three for Treasurer, Assessor and City Attorney.
Non was the operative ranking principle....

So far under IRV we have incumbents getting well below 50 percent and even into the low 30 percent range on the first pass being re-elected under IRV. A frontrunner in a supervisor contest was successful with under 30 percent support in the first pass...

How good a job is IRV doing in terms of producing democratic outcomes with the greatest number of voters? In 2004, no supervisor in a contested race triggering ranked choice voting won a majority of the total votes cast in their districts.
In multiple candidate races, supervisors were elected who received well under 40 percent of the total votes cast....

IRV is simply a voting system. It gives the electorate a new set of tools, but it asks an enormous amount of voters, news organizations and endorsement groups.
The jury on this San Francisco experiment is still out, but IRV to date falls short of its backers expectations.

http://www.beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=1468

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
groovedaddy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thanks for the input!
I have to agree with the contention that electronic voting machines need to be made secure FIRST (Can they be!?!). Your posts have have certainly given me second thoughts about IRV, at least trying to implement it in a climate of "no trust" in the process.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-01-07 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. IRV in other countries done on hand counted paper ballots, ok
Folks don't realize how inappropriate and risky it is
to conduct IRV or any sort of ranked voting on computers.

IRV or other forms of ranking are done in countries that -
have hand counted paper ballots
one contest on the entire ballot
multiple parties to rank

In that situation, it makes sense to rank the choices,
when you have say 30 different political parties running
for parliament.

IRV or any ranked choice voting, if done in the US on
computers, could very well be the next method of
rigging elections, and getting away with it.

Here is a list of articles about how IRV actually has done,
what it really cost, and how hard it is to audit:
http://www.ncvoter.net/downloads/Instant_Runoff_Voting_Value_and_Risks_Report.pdf

Now do it on hand counted paper ballots, then I am fine with it.
I don't think it works, but at least it won't make election rigging
easier with HCPB.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC